Apostilled Documents..

[LivinLOS]

Apologies if this isnt the right forum.. I figured its the closest.

I now find out that the USA wont accept the certified documents I have already provided but instead insist on "a notarized and apostilled" passport copy before giving my money back to me !!

My normal lawyer doesnt know what an apostilled document is, and neither did the next lawyer I asked.. I am now concerned as Thailand isnt a signatory to the Hague convention either.

Anyone know a notary public (pref phuket) that can provide an apostilled copy ?? Is this a service that can be done locally (Thailand) ?? I really dont want to go to bangkok just to visit the US embassy when this is entirely other peoples mistakes with my money. rolleyes.gif

[nowork114]

The only one who can certify document is the authority who issued the document or higher. Therefore if you have US passport the only authority who can "certify" a copy is US Embassy. My EU embassy just put a stamp "Seen At The Embassy" with name and embassy stamp and so far it was enough.

Apostiled document is document legalized by higher authority - such as by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From your request seems that you need to go to US embassy, get a certified copy of your passport and then take it to the Thai Ministry of Foreign affaris where they will certify signature of the person from US Embassy - after this the document can be used in Thailand by local law.

[Naam]

The only one who can certify document is the authority who issued the document or higher. Therefore if you have US passport the only authority who can "certify" a copy is US Embassy. My EU embassy just put a stamp "Seen At The Embassy" with name and embassy stamp and so far it was enough.

Apostiled document is document legalized by higher authority - such as by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From your request seems that you need to go to US embassy, get a certified copy of your passport and then take it to the Thai Ministry of Foreign affaris where they will certify signature of the person from US Embassy - after this the document can be used in Thailand by local law.

incorrect information. thousands of notaries (not every notary) in signatory countries have the right to issue and attach an apostille to document.

[PeaceBlondie]

I would have to get my Thai TEFL cert/diploma certified in BKK to teach EFL in Mexico.. 3-step process. MOE, MFA, Mex embassy.

[nowork114]

The only one who can certify document is the authority who issued the document or higher. Therefore if you have US passport the only authority who can "certify" a copy is US Embassy. My EU embassy just put a stamp "Seen At The Embassy" with name and embassy stamp and so far it was enough.

Apostiled document is document legalized by higher authority - such as by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From your request seems that you need to go to US embassy, get a certified copy of your passport and then take it to the Thai Ministry of Foreign affaris where they will certify signature of the person from US Embassy - after this the document can be used in Thailand by local law.

incorrect information. thousands of notaries (not every notary) in signatory countries have the right to issue and attach an apostille to document.

Depends on the country. I Thailand you can ask your shoe-maker to stamp and sign... Depends it it will be valid for the intended recipient of the document - and anything w/o MFA or Embassy stamp will not be accepted ...

[LivinLOS]

Well the US clearly states that 'foreign notaries are accepted as long as the document if properly Apostilled" however the certified I already presented is not accepted.

Hence I need a notary that can apostille documents, I can even send a spare passport to have this done long distance but would rather not.

Am going to dig through the US tax sites to see if the US consul may be able to help, I really would rather not go to bangkok for this.

[taxout]

To help you, we really need to know precisely what document you need authenticated and who in the US needs it.

If it's an official Thai document signed by some Thai official -- such as a marriage certificate -- then you need to have it legalised, a very cumbersome process involving several Thai government offices as well as the US embassy. The Hague Convention provides a way to short-cut this arcane procedure with an apostille, but Thailand's not party to the convention, so you're spinning your wheels looking for an apostille here.

If it's a document you need to sign before a notary or the like -- such as a property deed -- then heading to the US embassy, however inconvenient it may be, is the way to go. In most countries, you can also sign such a document before a local notary, and then have the notary's signature apostilled or legalised, but Thailand has no official notaries. There are, though, some lawyers that offer notary-like services, and perhaps whoever needs your document in the US would accept that.

[Naam]

...anything w/o MFA or Embassy stamp will not be accepted ...

please accept that when you are wrong, you are wrong. the signatory countries of the Hague Convention agreed that an apostille which is permanently and unremovably attached to a document will be acknowledged and accepted by said countries as "true document". the problem is that not all countries are signatories with notaries who have received the exequatur of their country to issue an apostille. member Livinlos has to find out whether the W8-Ben notarised by the U.S. Embassy, BKK will be accepted (in my view highly likely). otherwise the nearest places to obtain an apostille are Brunei and Hong Kong.

case closed.

next!

[taxout]

Looking at your other thread, it seems you're trying to get a tax id number from the IRS.

The IRS Manual goes into great detail about the documents needed to get a tax id number; they're at Section 3.21.263.4.7 here:

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part3/irm_03-021-263r.html

If you do have a second passport that's current, you can send it to to IRS, which has up to 60 days to return it back to you. See Section 3.21.263.5.2.12. ("1. The ITIN Unit has 60 days to return original supporting identification documentation to an ITIN applicant. 2. If the applicant has not received their original supporting identification documentation back within 60 days of the date they mailed it, they may contact the ITIN Unit and request research for missing/lost documentation.")

The Manual is also explicit that documents notarised by a Thai notary, if there were such a thing, are not accepted: "Do not accept documents notarized by a foreign notary whose country is not authorized under the Hague convention. . . . Documents issued by non-member countries must be certified by the foreign authority that issued it."

[LivinLOS]

Yes its to get a non resident tax number to track the money they took from me that they dont deserve.. Its been a year now and I would kinda like th emulti 1000's back sometime.

All it is that needs to be shown is a passport copy.

[LivinLOS]

Thats an excellent link taxout and does show hope that

Supporting identification documentation must be:

*

Original, or

*

Certified by the issuing agency (examples include passports or birth certificates),

Note:

German passports issued by city hall (Gemeinde, Staatsvervaltung or Ortsverwaltung) or the village administrator (Burgermeister) are valid. Review the stamps and seals on certified copies of passports to ensure that they are from the same city that issued the passport.

or

*

Certified/Notarized by U.S. government military officer (JAG Officer), U.S. State Department, U.S. Consul/Embassy employee

The only concern is the.

Note:

U.S. Consuls /Embassies may not certify true copies of foreign public documents and will refer applicants to the foreign authority that issued the documents.

I dont know if a passport is a foreign public document.

Edited December 16, 2009 by LivinLOS

[Naam]

U.S. Consuls /Embassies may not certify true copies of foreign public documents

make a photocopy, sign it in the presence of the U.S. Embassy officer who should certify your signature. should work. your broker seems to be a clown. i never submitted my passport or a copy nor did i ever have the Form W-8BEN notarised.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Naam

[LivinLOS]

My broker is an total clown.. Totally agreed, once I have this refund in my hand (so no more help from them can be needed) the rest of the funds will be out of thier company.

None of this is for the broker tho.. My broker failed to keep my w8 on file.. Then I made a trade for which there was no purchase history (had the stock a while) and the IRS took 30 something % of the trade !!!

As a non US citizen, not having visited the US in that tax year, I now have had to fight to get it back, do a tax return, get a taxpayer number, its all a bad joke.

[taxout]

There's never been a requirement that the W-8BEN be notarised.

However, in most cases you now need a US taxpayer id number to file a W-8BEN, and to get that number you now have to give the IRS id documents which have been notarised in some fashion, unless you submit originals.

In the past, the W-8BEN did not always require a taxpayer id number; this is a relatively new requirement. However, if an old W-8BEN was filed without a taxpayer id number, then it expired automatically after three years. As the instructions to the old W-8BEN stated:

"Generally, a Form W-8BEN provided without a taxpayer identification number (TIN) will remain in effect for a period starting on the date the form is signed and ending on the last day of the third succeeding calendar year, unless a change in circumstances makes any information on the form incorrect. For example, a Form W-8BEN signed on September 30, 1999, remains valid through December 31, 2002."

Thus, the broker may not really be at fault for "losing" that W-8BEN.

[Naam]

There's never been a requirement that the W-8BEN be notarised.

However, in most cases you now need a US taxpayer id number to file a W-8BEN, and to get that number you now have to give the IRS id documents which have been notarised in some fashion, unless you submit originals.

you are right. i forgot to mention in my case that both my wife and i (inspite of the fact that we are foreigners) have U.S. social security numbers = taxpayer IDs.

[LivinLOS]

"Generally, a Form W-8BEN provided without a taxpayer identification number (TIN) will remain in effect for a period starting on the date the form is signed and ending on the last day of the third succeeding calendar year, unless a change in circumstances makes any information on the form incorrect. For example, a Form W-8BEN signed on September 30, 1999, remains valid through December 31, 2002."

Thus, the broker may not really be at fault for "losing" that W-8BEN.

The W8 expired.. I got a form letter to do a new one.. I did it and sent it back to them, they never put it on file and I had no way of knowing that it had gone missing somewhere along the line.

The way the broker has also needed multiple copies of various docs due to thier own errors makes me pretty sure where the missing happened.

[nakachalet]

just last month, u.s. brokerage in chicago requested a W-8BEN which a brother-in-law signed and without notary public involvement. three days later, we were notified that the trading acct was ready and has been officially activated for trading.

and puzzling as it was, it also stated that the proceeds generated by stocks and futures trading acitivities will not be subjected to withholding for u.s. income tax....

the acct was opened with legal and traceable funds converted from thai baht but it was only for 100k u.s.d.

now i am wondering, if we could have the same broker.... is it.... l...w...d? per chance....? thx....

[LivinLOS]

L W D ?? Nope..

I never needed notary for signing a w8.. Why would you ?? they have the origional form.

But as I keep saying.. This isnt about the W8, its about the IRS.

[semper48]

I have just been involved with getting a whole lot of documents properly notarized. While doing so I asked about Apostille notarization. What I can say with utmost certainty is that Thailand is not part of the international agreement/standards of Apostille notarization. It simply isnt done in Thailand. Double notarization of two higher authorities is what Thailand has to offer instead of Apostille.