Respect

[Axel]

...but the use and practice of "restraint" is admirable most of the time.

That's enough, my hangover is coming back with a vengeance.................. I'm a fine one to talk about "restraint", eh?

plachon you got it right, hangover or not. In vino veritas.

Restraint, otherwise it comes to ranting that does not lead to anything.

The US will not crumble or go down, GWB makes other countries dis-respect America and this should not be. I do not hate America, just because her present president did not deserve my respect. However, would be nicer to see a strong guy leading the US and not this ....(explecit edited)

Saw somewhere a picture of the First Lady with Chirac. Perfect hand-kiss with a diplomatic smile and not a trace of his real thought in his face.

The German Chancellor (what's his name) was in the WH, talked to Bush, who was afraid before the meeting and ordered all photographers off. GWB was like a sulking child, did not call or receive calls for months and months after Schroeder's NO. About the same face he made, when Al Gore called him back and said, I want a recount.

George and Gerhadt, just small talk, a few soldiers for Afghanistan, offer to train Iraqis in Germany to become police men. No money for rebuilding Iraq!

Let's face it, Schroeder should be grateful for having brought democracy by the US 60 years ago. But Bush should as well be grateful for Schroeder exercising such by having said, "George, you are wrong and I do not support your thing in Iraq". Democracy should allow to tell a partner when he is wrong.

Guys, keep it going, don't shoot each other, show your feeling but don't go after each other's neck.

I for one listen to both sides and you have my respect (back to the subject) for properly posting your feelings. When you lighten it up by a few pictures. Great. Life is too short to hate each other.

[Butterfly]

Jeez, one goes away on a whisky-fuelled jaunt to the cool mountains of Loei for a few days (no air-con required up there now Tuts), and comes back and find a thread that's gone ballistic on one of my favourite mass debating subjects. (Refering here to Rolling stone's insightful contribution, naturally) Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Is there no justice in life?

FWIW, "Respect" is a bullshit modern term, totally abused by 90 % of its users and like "at the end of the day", I cringe whenever I hear it, but the use and practice of "restraint" is admirable most of the time. That goes for both sides of this debate, whether, Membrane/SoCal, etc. or the more vicious of Butterfly's postings. While I agree with the gist of most of what you're saying, hoping somebody "gets a bullet through their head" (whether it's GWB or his nemesis, OBL), helps the debate zilch. Whether, the violence of the extremists in Al Quaeda or the violence of the zealots (with the real WMDs) in the White House, none of these criminals deserve the respect of peaceful people the world over. But restraint is a much under-practiced concept in these troubled times of extremism and misuse of power by those elected to represent the majority.

That's enough, my hangover is coming back with a vengeance.................. I'm a fine one to talk about "restraint", eh?

yeah, I am with you and I do not wish anyone to die but at least politically have someone kill that SOB. Sorry if I sound very harsh and vicious but this is how I feel with characters like these. He would have been Chinese or Russian, I would feel the same. This is NOT anti-American BS, an argument being used so easily on this board. Actually I have the same feeling for Putin, another little Nazi wanabee who deserve to be put into sleep with another bullet.

[parryhandy]

This is what the iraq war has been about from day1 .

This makes the corruption in thailand look like childs play.

[bangkokblue]

With Armistice Day approaching in the Uk please spare a thought for those that fell in conflict, from who's allied sacrifices most here have inherited the right of freedom. Those that bash another nations people i must accept do so in ignorance. It can be made a sad fact of life in democracy that we have to entrust in our elected leaders, However, there were and still exists alternative's to rule which i shudder to think what would be debated here today, chance being a fine thing, if that were to be the case. Perhap's the bashers could enlighten me. respect too you all.

[tutsiwarrior]

bangkokblue...I am an American and a 'basher'. I haved lived in the UK and can speak with emotion of the time when I was atop a boiler with others on a power station in Lincolnshire in the howling 11 Nov wind and the siren went off for the 2 minutes silence.

But lets leave poppy day to the UK, shall we?...otherwise lets talk about Nicaraguans (los heroes y martires) that were killed fighting a war against US paid mercenaries and all of those that lost their lives fighting injustice and oppression.

Hope that enlightens...

[bangkokblue]

tutsiwarrior..... Thank you for that shared emotion. I will agree with you on the Nicaragua and a host of other instances throughout the world, so are you saying that democracy is at fault or just it's leaders

[parryhandy]

I think the wests democracys are excellent but its leaders are pitiful. Reading that resume of bush makes my skin crawl . Theres no way on earth a man like that should be allowed to become president of the usa.Leaders should be of the utmost integrity in my opinion and lead by example not by twisting and bending rules to suit there needs.All the leaders show people nowadays is that the only way to achieve anything is through violence and if youve got money you can do what you like.

Just think how many people have died in the war on drugs over the years and now there is an ex crack head in the whitehouse .What do you think the people who died fighting for freedom in ww2 would think of that.

[Butterfly]

I think the wests democracys are excellent but its leaders are pitiful. Reading that resume of bush makes my skin crawl . Theres no way on earth a man like that should be allowed to become president of the usa.

And that brings the obvious question: Should have Arnold been elected Governor ?  

[SoCal]

Bitterfly, your knowledge of geo-politics is next to nothing, yet your blather on this subject is almost unending. People point out your errors, yet you take off in another direction, with an even less founded argument.

Which madras did you attend after all? Please enlighten us.

I never thought it too interesting until now, but I think I will take up entomology on my next trip to Bangkok. Yes, that should prove amusing indeed.  

[OzzieMan]

After some serious contemplation, and a few beers at the local bar I have decided to make a change

Make LOVE Not WAR my friends In Thailand

[Membrane]

After some serious contemplation, and a few beers at the local bar I have decided to make a change

Make LOVE Not WAR my friends In Thailand

Yes!  Agreed....

World peace, or lack of it, is not going to be solved by our little "chatting among ants" here on this board anyway.  All the world's politicians are going to do what they are going to do anyway--let them sort it out.  Don't live in fear, my friends.  Mai pen lai...

Believe it or not, I hate talking politics anyway, I just don't want to hear my country being bashed every time I turn around.  (Who would)?  But, no one is going to change their opinions, no matter how much things are discussed and "proven".  It's been said that most people form their opinions using emotion, then try to use logic to back it up with "reasons".  

I say we all concentrate on our own country's politics, try to make things better, respect each other, and go back to talking about THAILAND and how great it is...

Anything else is just an exercise in hatred and high blood pressure--and is unnecessary!

Make Love, Not War!  Here's to World Piece!  

Membrane

[stumonster]

democracy is not what it says on the promotional pamphlets, you have party policies, and subtle ( or not so subtle ) control of the mainstream media. Rarely do I see an elected representative actually representing their people, telling them what they want through propaganda is not educating them to rationalise their needs and/or desires. What is really required to have a reasonable existance? Our leaders whom we have been discussing have all achieved their status by relying on immoral strategies, lies and outright corruption. The corruption and nepotism which is quite obvious in asian countries is just as prevelant in the western world,

but alot of money is spent on convincing us otherwise. The internet may well be the light at the end of the tunnel, as I am not sure that many of those entrenched in their manipulative ways, understand this new medium and its wide reaching power. The ability to communicate with people in many corners of the planet is opening up a very welcome exchange of ideas and thoughts. Its very reason for existance, was so there was no way to destroy the communications. Hopefully wireless networking will accelerate its ability to reach more and more people on the planet.

cor...hows that for a load of dribble..I think I need a beer or something similar....

[OzzieMan]

hows that for a load of dribble..I think I need a beer or something similar....

My friend shut up, pull up a chair

have a beer

Find a new lady

Enjoy life and join us here in Thailand were we just don't give a s**t any more

and we all say with glasss held high

make lOVE NOT WAR

[stumonster]

no worries ozzie, beer is on my mind.

I am in the bkk.. though the outer fringe... lam luk ka ways

I will stick with the wonderful woman I have now.. but there are many to admire from a distance...

heading into the expensive beer area of sukhumvit this morning... meet a mate.. help him find an apartment  and guide him on a trip to panthip....

and membrane... this is one of the many areas for the exchange of ideas and emotional opinions...

[Indo-Siam]

Wow !   Interesting.  I've NEVER seen any discussion board allow this level of political "discussion".  More power to it.

The world has been spinning for a h*ll of a long time.  Hannibal and his Carthaginians have crossed the Alps; the Light Brigade made its fateful charge in the Crimea; Cortez and Pizzarro inflicted genocide upon an entire continent in the name of European plunderers; the Opium wars were fought over UK trying to defend its right to corner the opuium trade in China; European Christain Crusaders not only slaughtered Muslims by the thousands - the idiots wiped out Christain villages in the mideast because they were too ignorant to recognize ancient Christian practices; the Burmese sacked Ayuthaya and leveled Bang Rachan; and it goes on and on - Ghenghis Khan and the Mongols; the Moorish invasion by the Saracens; Picketts Charge at Gettysburg; tremendous fighters fighting for bad causes - the French (and the Legion) at Dien Bien Phu; the Japanese dominating Asian and the Pacific; the Germans under Hitler whomping up on three fronts (Russian, North African, Western); the Russians defending Stalingrad.  Pol Pot and Year Zero.  And - almost to my disbelief - Robert Mugabe proceeding with actions that have and will starve MILLIONS OF AFRICANS - and the world hardly makes a peep (certainly no one on this board seems to notice or care).

And the clock keeps on ticking.  Always, the armchair heroes squack and gnash their teeth.  Maybe best to recall the words of another American President, addressing the Sorbonne, April 23, 1910:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

Shame on the man of cultivated taste who permits refinement to develop into a fastidiousness that unfits him for doing the rough work of a workaday world. Among the free peoples who govern themselves there is but a small field of usefulness open for the men of cloistered life who shrink from contact with their fellows. Still less room is there for those who deride or slight what is done by those who actually bear the brunt of the day; nor yet for those others who always profess that they would like to take action, if only the conditions of life were not what they actually are. The man who does nothing cuts the same sordid figure in the pages of history, whether he by cynic, or fop, or voluptuary. There is little use for the being whose tepid soul knows nothing of the great and generous emotion, of the high pride, the stern belief, the lofty enthusiasm, of the men who quell the storm and ride the thunder. Well for these men if they succeed; well also, though not so well, if they fail, given only that they have nobly ventured, and have put forth all their heart and strength. It is war-worn Hotspur, spent with hard fighting, he of the many errors and the valiant end, over whose memory we love to linger, not over the memory of the young lord who "but for the vile guns would have been a soldier..."

I'm an American.  I paid my military dues.  I'm not too pleased with what I see my government doing - and my heart bleeds for the American soldiers who have to walk patrols in Baghdad.  But - I'm not going to villify the whole thing in one broad swipe.  I agree that it wa a ridiculous position to take - saying that some third-rate dictator who didn't even control his own airspace or 25% of his land mass was a threat to the whole world.  Hey, the die are cast, and we've crossed the Rubicon.  One thing I will say - compared to most "victorius" armies of history, the American Army, as a whole, has been about the most benevolent victors the world has ever seen - starting with how we ended one of the most bitter and deadly civil wars ever fought, through to the rebuilding of Germany and Japan (and I walked through the rubble of the Reichstag in Berlin in 1984 - so I know what the alternative looks like).  Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan - and now EYE-RAK.  Too bad America can't seem to figure out that the rest of the world doesn't really share (or even want to share) American values.

In the recent past, being a "Superpower" meant that, if a SUPAPAWA wanted to, it could turn any patch of real estate on the globe into a glowing glass parking lot.  Today it means that - if it wants to - Uncle Sam can put a cruise missile through any one meter opening on the planet, or circle a predator drone over any spot it wants, waiting for a target to step into view.  Where to next?

I figure the "next big thing" will be a major attack on the Internet itself - the root servers and the rest - by some malcontents who figure out how to do some SERIOUS damage that way.  Probably within the next 6-9 months.  This board will be disrupted along with the rest.  But - long-term, what will the outcome be?  Well, the "bad guys" (aka "freedom fighters") ain't got a Microsoft; ain't got a Cisco; ain't got an Intel - and I suspect that - once again - "that which does not kill us shall make us strong".  

And - America - under its current leadership - is going to have to go fix the mess.  And - they will.

'Just thought I'd cover a bit of new ground.........just to keep the discussion interesting.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Indo-Siam

[dr_Pat_Pong]

They were classic posts...a man couldn't knock them on the head.      

[Membrane]

Wow !   Interesting.  I've NEVER seen any discussion board allow this level of political "discussion".  More power to it.

Wow!  What a post, Indo-Siam!  Excellent indeed....

[Butterfly]

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

What were you saying ? I can't hear you little man  

[Butterfly]

After some serious contemplation, and a few beers at the local bar I have decided to make a change

Make LOVE Not WAR my friends In Thailand

Glad to see that you are starting to make sense. War should always be the last option and be avoided at all costs, but unfortunately some people just love wars, probably because they can't make love  

Of course, Bush, the NeoCons and Putin come to mind, these guys need to get laid   and maybe they will be tired to find stupid excuses to stir up shit in the world so they can have their little war.

[Butterfly]

Excellent, Indo-Siam

There has been far darker days in American history than these little Bush episodes. Hopefully, the US will survive this one or maybe not survive if another fraud election give this "little" man another 4 years. I wish Clinton would be back into power. This guy at least knew what he was doing and had a vision for international affairs. And having blow jobs in the oval office was still better than having wars in third world countries as "ego" trips.

[Membrane]

Excellent, Indo-Siam

Yes Butterfly!  Indo-Siam's post was excellent!  We finally agree on something.  

I especially like the part where he talks about the good-for-nothing "armchair heroes who squack and gnash their teeth"!  That was great, huh?

...Or the quote from a past U.S. president who said "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..."  I really liked that part!  

In other words, it's not the little man (whose contribution to making things better is only to criticize and can't wait to see the US crumble) that counts--the people who really count are the people who try to be productive and make things better.

At last!  We agree my friend!  It was an excellent post!  And it would be worthwhile to go back and reread Indo-Siam's post again (especially all that stuff in the big white box), just to make sure you understand those finer points... ???

[kwiz117]

I do not think any arguments to justify that “US went to war to help Iraqi people” will work anymore.

But one thing for sure, US is now fixed in Iraq  

It is like, ok you stay in my country now and I will kill one at a time each day.

I do not think Democracy will work in any Muslim Country. They have such extremist religious groups and only a leader like Sadam will help to govern such a country. Or you need a King like in Saudi or a military leader like in Pakistan. That is the way it is and who are we to change it saying no it is not the correct way.

I can not see a way for US to revert this back at this stage. Actually the calculations [Cost Benefit] of this war is wrong. The real fact is, now the Cost is more for US than the return they expected from Iraqi Oil. Without admitting it, now Bush Administration is making things confused by mixing several issues to divert the public attention from the main objective of going to war.

They thought, first attack and then get the UN Backing to legalize it. But things did not work the way they thought as we got some leaders with backbones in Europe to stand against the present brutal US Administration.

When you look at this war in Iraq, it is not much different from the War in Afghanistan. Whatever the technology they show in TV [CNN] still Bin Laden is walking in Mountains and issuing statements time to time.

On the other side, Bush is also making counter statements on him. Is this mean, both are in the same weight Group?  

Me fool, discussing this and trying to justify who is right and who is wrong.

No wonder why some bunch of extremists like Sadam, Bush, Blair, Bin Laden became so powerful.

[Butterfly]

Excellent, Indo-Siam

Yes Butterfly!  Indo-Siam's post was excellent!  We finally agree on something.  

I especially like the part where he talks about the good-for-nothing "armchair heroes who squack and gnash their teeth"!  That was great, huh?

...Or the quote from a past U.S. president who said "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..."  I really liked that part!  

In other words, it's not the little man (whose contribution to making things better is only to criticize and can't wait to see the US crumble) that counts--the people who really count are the people who try to be productive and make things better.

At last!  We agree my friend!  It was an excellent post!  And it would be worthwhile to go back and reread Indo-Siam's post again (especially all that stuff in the big white box), just to make sure you understand those finer points... ???

I would hate to break it to you but I think you misundertood what was said exactly in that speech. It describes exactly what Bush and his friends are. Hawks with no track history.

"armchair heroes who squack and gnash their teeth"! fits Bush and his NeoCon friends perfectly

and "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..."

This is exactly what is going on. Bush is sitting in the comfort and security of the White House while other get killed for him. Very courageous. He is not a strong man, but a weak POS, a disgrace to the Public Office. The UN was in the arena, not Bush, and was trying to fix things. Then the spoiled kid with no experience came in to throw a fist because he couldn't have it his way.

Again, you turn a perfect speech into a propaganda piece so it can fit your agenda. Shame, shame on you. You don't deserve to be American and you certainly don't deserve the freedom that the US has granted you so far.

[Butterfly]

I do not think any arguments to justify that “US went to war to help Iraqi people” will work anymore.

But one thing for sure, US is now fixed in Iraq

yes kwiz117, this makes perfect sense. The US deserves every bit of that mess. They wanted their war, now thay have it and they can deal with it alone. Nobody want that piece of the world. And I hope they will not come come whinning to the world again when another 9/11 attack happen because this time nobody will have sympathy for them.

[stumonster]

indo-siam and membrane, the blanket argument america is great does not wash, and theodore was still from the privilaged class, his perspective of democracy would have been different to that of the workers, the people who make and repair things on this planet.

the ability of america to visit death and destruction on unsuspecting peoples, is not in question.

The poor foot soldiers on the ground are not educated or equipped to deal with the animosity toward them by the people of iraq. When one of their leaders, whom they are taught to respect comes out with a statement to the effect, our god is bigger than yours, and we look at the way people from the middle east are portrayed in the movies issuing from hollywood, the chances of american resolving anything in iraq are very slim.

this perception that issues can be resolved by heroic action are just like rambo...FICTION!!! you might be able to paper over the cracks short term, but in the long run the facade will surely be exposed..communication and understanding are the only things that will bring about respect for others...pursuit of greedy agendas, either for political or monetary gain will just keep the resentment simmering until the next explosion of hate.

ok  back to my bottle of beer..it understands me...

[aryanation]

bob browns just a fag

[Kan Win]

bob browns just a fag

Me think, "a Fag”, as you wrote, was slang for a cigarette in the U.K.

Tomy smokes one each time he posts.

-----------------------------------------

To :- Tomy,  you look like “a young  Bob Dylan” in Drag………. and a Puffin Billy, (a Train of course).

What Joint are you on  LOL……

“Puff the Magic Dragoon lived by the sea“ (Song)

------------------------------------------

Hic Hic Hurray,

Beer Singha.

Beer cells are kicking in now, no more Brain cells left.

 :cool:  :laugh:  

[tutsiwarrior]

aryanation..your handle and some of your posts are questionable.

Here next to me in the bar there is a dude called BIGNIGGANATION that has been grumbling along the same lines...

[aryanation]

bob brown is a fag

cant wait

another one bites the dust

[Membrane]

Again, you turn a perfect speech into a propaganda piece so it can fit your agenda.

sigh...  Bitterfly, you still don't get it, do you?

You are the master of propaganda.  Anyone who cares to do a search on your name and look at your posts can prove it to themselves.  You take every opportunity to spew hatred and anti-American propaganda:

You are the one that said you "can't wait to see the US crumble".  Yeah, you and Osama both feel that way, I'm sure.

You are the one that is trying to float ridiculous theories like "US domination of the world with the help of Israel".  Yeah, you and Osama both feel that way, I'm sure.

You were the one that said that "the US will surrender sooner or later to those terrorists".  Yeah, you and Osama both feel that way, I'm sure.

You are the one that is trying to spread the idea that "America wanted this war" and that it would "deserve it" if another 9/11 style attack was launched.  Not all Americans wanted this war.  Are you for killing innocent American men, women and children?  You and Osama both do, I'm sure.

You are the one that showed us your brilliant (lack of) knowledge by referring to the U.S. style of voting as the "collegial system, you dim-witt"?  (Your words, not mine).

You are the one that has tried to propagate the misinformed notion that Bush "stole" the election, even after SoCal (correctly) informed you how it works--that "Gore won the majority, Bush the electorate".  (You still don't understand, do you)?

Shall I continue???

Anyone who cares about America or humanity--whether or not they agree with the war--would never say half the things that you have said.  They would protest, call their congressman, write their newspaper, vote for someone else next time, try to impeach, whatever.  No one with any compassion would ever dream of more attacks, wishing the U.S. would crumble, concoct ridiculous bigotted theories about Jews and "world domination", etc.  You're no better than the KKK.

And before you say it: I'm not against freedom of speech.  I'm all for it.  I like the fact that this board exists and appreciate that Dr. PP lets us converse uncensored.  I'm just against stupidity.  Maybe you don't realize it, but when you say things like "Jews want to rule the world"--you sound just as bigotted and as crazy as Mahathir.

Are you an American?  I'm curious...  Because no American would say "We want our country to go up in flames.  After all, we deserve to die, because we're trying to dominate the world with the help of Israel".  But that's exactly what you've been saying.  And if you aren't American, well, I still believe in your right to say whatever you want--but I have every right to counter you!  That's one of the founding concepts of America: free speech--and it goes both ways.

You know, it's funny... When pinned down, you try to wriggle your way out of it and say you really don't "want a bullet in Bush's head"--(even though we all know you do), that you really aren't being anti-American--(even though we all know you are) and that you really don't want to see America "crumble" (even though we all know you really do--you've even explicitly admitted it).

You really don't seem to be trying to do anything productive.  You're simply trying to distort the truth; trying to inflame an already very sensitive world situation (with no regard to the consequences) by spreading bigotry, hatred, fear, lies and mistrust.

By the way, I never said I was for the war.  If this truly is an "exchange of ideas and emotional opinions", then I'm expressing my ideas and opinions, as I feel someone needs to round things out.