Punishments.

[coalminer]

Today, my child (7 years old) came home and complained about a tinteling pain in her hands.

I couldn't see anything wrong with her hands, so I asked when the pain started and what she had done.

After a few minutes of trying to find out what happened, she started to cry and told us that the swimming teacher hit everybody who had no swimsuit 3 times with a metal ruler on the hand palms.

In my country, this teacher would face a court case for using physical force on children, he would be forbidden to teach in the country and on top of that he would face a court order to pay mental and physical indemnisation whch would ruin him for the rest of his life.

But, This Is Thailand, and the laws are not the same as in my country.

I feel furious that a teacher in a schol which is ranked in the 3 best schools of the city, is allowed to use physical punishments on kids from 7 years old.

But if I go complaining to the school, I fear that nobody will take the complaint seriously and that my child will become the object of increased abuses by other teachers.

What would you do in such a case?

Edited a grammar error

Edited December 16, 2009 by coalminer

[Kitsch22]

State school or private?

Is this the first time you realised that your child is in a school in which corporal punishment of pupils is permitted?

Do you know how many years have passed since corporal punishment of children by teachers was made illegal in your country of origin?

[coalminer]

State school or private?

Private school.

Is this the first time you realised that your child is in a school in which corporal punishment of pupils is permitted

Who says that "corporal punishment of pupils is permitted"?

Because 1 teacher does it, it doesn't mean that the school agrees with the teacher actions.

Do you know how many years have passed since corporal punishment of children by teachers was made illegal in your country of origin?

What has this to do with the question of the OP?

[Kitsch22]

The (negative comment edited out) , Sorry teacher probly has not grasped that the poor child's family do not have money to buy swim costumes,Times are hard at the moment ,

My child has a cold (docters notice from the hospital is at the headmasters office) and is not permitted to swim.

So you foresaw the potential problem and took appropriate action but were let down by a failure within the headmaster's office to take the necessary consequent steps. Is that a fair summary?

Purely as an aside, do you happen to know whether or not your daughter told the swimming teacher that she was under medical orders not to swim?

[coalminer]

My child has a cold (docters notice from the hospital is at the headmasters office) and is not permitted to swim.

So you foresaw the potential problem and took appropriate action but were let down by a failure within the headmaster's office to take the necessary consequent steps. Is that a fair summary?

Not really.

My child is taking every day the clothes, books and other items that are needed for that day to school.

In case of sickness or other problems that would prevent her erom attending one or more classes, she ALWAYS has a medical or another kind of attest to prove that she is/was not able to attend the classes.

Nothing foreseen.

Just followed the rules.

The headmaster has about 500 children every day under her care.

If only 10% of them report an illness or another problem, this would mean that 50 children cannot attend some classes and that about 26 teachers need to be made aware of the problem.

And every day, 50 students would have a complaint.

An almost impossible task.

But the teachers SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to use corporal punishments without bringing this to the attention of the parents.

Purely as an aside, do you happen to know whether or not your daughter told the swimming teacher that she was under medical orders not to swim?

Weither she has told the teacher or not makes no difference as I have not been made aware that the school allows corporal punishments.

Beside this, my daughter was not the only one to have received the corporal punishment.

Purely as an aside,

If YOUR child is "beaten" tomorrow by a teacher and would be handicapped for the rest of his life.

Are you happy wth this and the idea that he/she would not be beaten up by the teacher if he had said that he/she was sick?

I think not.........

After all, if the teacher hits a nerve or another vital organ of a 7 year old child with his metal ruler, the child could be handicapped for the rest of his live.

[Mighty Mouse]

Perhaps the feeling of being punished, rather than the punishment itself, was more painful to your daughter. After all, you did inspect her hands and didn't see any injury, nor I assume, was there any restriction in her hand movements.

I went to school when the use of the cane was the main means of enforcing compliance to the teachers requirements. I had my fair share of caning across the rump or fingertips and I came out OK. There was always pain but no physical damage.

Unless there is evidence that the teacher is applying too much physical punishment for minor indiscretions, my only reaction would be to explain to your daughter the difficulties that some teachers have in trying to get a whole class full of students to do what is asked of them.

[Kitsch22]

My child has a cold (docters notice from the hospital is at the headmasters office) and is not permitted to swim.

So you foresaw the potential problem and took appropriate action but were let down by a failure within the headmaster's office to take the necessary consequent steps. Is that a fair summary?

Not really.

My child is taking every day the clothes, books and other items that are needed for that day to school.

In case of sickness or other problems that would prevent her erom attending one or more classes, she ALWAYS has a medical or another kind of attest to prove that she is/was not able to attend the classes.

Nothing foreseen.

Just followed the rules.

The headmaster has about 500 children every day under her care.

If only 10% of them report an illness or another problem, this would mean that 50 children cannot attend some classes and that about 26 teachers need to be made aware of the problem.

And every day, 50 students would have a complaint.

An almost impossible task.

But the teachers SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to use corporal punishments without bringing this to the attention of the parents.

Purely as an aside, do you happen to know whether or not your daughter told the swimming teacher that she was under medical orders not to swim?

Weither she has told the teacher or not makes no difference as I have not been made aware that the school allows corporal punishments.

Beside this, my daughter was not the only one to have received the corporal punishment.

Purely as an aside,

If YOUR child is "beaten" tomorrow by a teacher and would be handicapped for the rest of his life.

Are you happy wth this and the idea that he/she would not be beaten up by the teacher if he had said that he/she was sick?

I think not.........

After all, if the teacher hits a nerve or another vital organ of a 7 year old child with his metal ruler, the child could be handicapped for the rest of his live.

While one inevitably has every sympathy for your daughter's position, I find that I do not have much for yours.

You consider irrelevant the issue whether or not the teacher who imposed the punishment was aware that your daughter had a valid excuse. Any reasonable person would recognize that it was highly relevant.

It is evident by inference that you did not ascertain the disciplinary policy and procedures of the school in question before you enrolled your daughter. Now you are in a situation in which you must either accept the status quo or alternatively move her to another school. Or (as a further and more radical alternative) move to another country where corporal punishment of children is illegal, which appears to be what you really want.

[Scott]

The type of punishment used by both parents and teachers will vary greatly. In Thailand the use of corporal punishment is not allowed, although it is still widely used. Having ones child punished by a teacher for a minor infraction or no infraction can be very uncomfortable for both the child and the parents. It is also an emotional subject.

Let's stay on topic and let's keep from using unnecessarily inflammatory language.

[Kitsch22]

The type of punishment used by both parents and teachers will vary greatly. In Thailand the use of corporal punishment is not allowed, although it is still widely used. Having ones child punished by a teacher for a minor infraction or no infraction can be very uncomfortable for both the child and the parents. It is also an emotional subject.

Let's stay on topic and let's keep from using unnecessarily inflammatory language.

As the topic is "Verbal Punishments", it seems that the entire thread has been off topic.

When you say "corporal punishment is not allowed", do you mean that it is illegal? If it is not illegal, then in what sense is it "not allowed"?

If you are right (and it is illegal) then the position of the OP is much better justified than I had thought. And I had perhaps better have a word with the headmaster at our local school.

For the record, I think that restrained and proportionate corporal punishment can have a place within the education system.

[chantaal]

Perhaps the feeling of being punished, rather than the punishment itself, was more painful to your daughter. After all, you did inspect her hands and didn't see any injury, nor I assume, was there any restriction in her hand movements.

I went to school when the use of the cane was the main means of enforcing compliance to the teachers requirements. I had my fair share of caning across the rump or fingertips and I came out OK. There was always pain but no physical damage.

Unless there is evidence that the teacher is applying too much physical punishment for minor indiscretions, my only reaction would be to explain to your daughter the difficulties that some teachers have in trying to get a whole class full of students to do what is asked of them.

That's just what they do here.

They do it at my daughter's school. They hit them across an open palm with a ruler if they forget homework, or do not perform well on tests/quizzes. If a child is really misbehaving then they hit them across the rear with a bigger stick.

My daughter has forgotten her homework or answered questions incorrectly and been hit before. She said it hurts but only for a minute, but it makes her cry sometimes.

I don't like it, but her school is free and next to my school.

I think she'll be all right

[Scott]

Two posts have been deleted and further flaming is going to bring warnings.

Corporal Punishment is against the law in schools in Thailand. The topic title is a question. It's always a good idea to read the OP, not just the headline.

[torrenova]

I know that the school policy on corporal punishment as well as practical classroom discipline will be very high on my list of questions before my child sets foot in any school. If you don't agree with their policy, then how can you send your child to that establishment ? If you don't, know their policy, then you have failed your child.

[Curt1591]

Do you know how many years have passed since corporal punishment of children by teachers was made illegal in your country of origin?

In the States, this happened in the early seventies. It's also about the time when kids started ignoring parents, the teachers and administration.

But, they are so much better, emotionally!

I'll go take a time out now ......

[Kitsch22]

Two posts have been deleted and further flaming is going to bring warnings.

Corporal Punishment is against the law in schools in Thailand. The topic title is a question. It's always a good idea to read the OP, not just the headline.

My Copy of the Penal Code is a bit out of date but appears to indicate an offence only where the punishment causes "injury". Presumably there has been new legislation; could you point me to it please, before I go telling the local headmaster that he and his staff are a bunch of criminals.

Still can't see anything in the OP on the subject of "Verbal Punishments", though, whether questioning or otherwise.

[Scott]

The OP has asked what he should do.

I have a fair amount of experience in this area, but in the end it is up to you to decide what to do.

Corporal punishment is against the law in Thailand (but then so is not wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle). Like a lot of laws/rules/regulations, this is subject to interpretation by some schools. Schools have pretty much heeded the law and quit caning students. A significant number of schools still use the ruler on the open palm. For some strange reason they seem to think this is OK. I've seen done to entire classes.

Once you have settled down, you might want to either call or go into the school and explain your feelings about your 7 year old daughter being hit for an offense that really isn't her fault. (If you know the teacher personally, you could talk directly to him/her). If you express concern, but not anger and aren't threatening, then it is likely that your daughter will cease being hit without being mistreated for 'ratting out a teacher.'

I can assure you that complaints from parents are taken VERY seriously--especially if it is a private school.

[MikeyIdea]

I think it has happened to most of us, we find a mistake in the title of the thread and cannot change it ourselves

May I suggest that a moderator change the title of the thread from verbal punishment to corporal punishment. I am sure that the OP would agree

[maccaroni man]

i'm reading these replys and dont think any of the posters have children. As a parent i can say this with no uncertain terms if my child comes home and tells me he/she has been beaten by anyone at school. I am in my car and at the foot step of whomever touched mychild. I can assure you that after our meeting they will know that to touch my child again will be ot their own personal risk.

We pay the school to have a safe place for our children to learn and to be taught important issues such as responsibility, reliability, accountability if my child fails to comply with a rule tell me i will make sure the deciplin is administered.

[Scott]

Let's exercise a little care. There is a difference between being beaten and being hit on the hand with a ruler.

In the OP's case, it seems that the hit was enough to cause some physical discomfort, not to mention some psychological distress as well.

[Kitsch22]

Let's exercise a little care. There is a difference between being beaten and being hit on the hand with a ruler.

In the OP's case, it seems that the hit was enough to cause some physical discomfort, not to mention some psychological distress as well.

If something causes neither discomfort nor distress, then can it properly be described as "punishment"?

Part of my difficulty here is following the OP in his jump from "smack on the hand with a ruler" to "handicapped for life".

[Explorer]

Must we wait for the "smack on the hand with a ruler" that would later caused "handicapped for life" before any action is taken?

This is a 7 year old we are talking about here, not 13 or 16 year old

Explorer

[MikeyIdea]

I know that the school policy on corporal punishment as well as practical classroom discipline will be very high on my list of questions before my child sets foot in any school. If you don't agree with their policy, then how can you send your child to that establishment ? If you don't know their policy, then you have failed your child.

That is so true torrenova, on the other hand ->

But, This Is Thailand, and the laws are not the same as in my country.

I feel furious that a teacher in a school which is ranked in the 3 best schools of the city, is allowed to use physical punishments on kids from 7 years old.

But if I go complaining to the school, I fear that nobody will take the complaint seriously and that my child will become the object of increased abuses by other teachers

I can really understand coalminer too. And I think the above is good

It is a fact that neither Thais nor foreigners like corporal punishment. Most poorer Thais would not say anything of course, but the rich aren't afraid to open their mouth, certainly not parents in an expensive private school, be it that they are plain stupid sometimes when they do. The rich Thais in my daughters' school have been pretty verbal; getting the swimming pool closed for the whole term because of the swine flu scare is only one sample. I paid extra for having Idea running around on the school yard because of that…

I disagree with Kitch22 who imply that the teacher has no responsibility to check if the pupil has a valid reason before taking to corporal punishment, that is preposterous. In my opinion, I hope that you are not a teacher or a parent Kitch.

I would check with the girl which kids got punished and if you or our wife knows the parents, ask if they are agree / are comfortable with the teachers behaviour or not. I think what action you should take is depending on if you're standing alone or not. My bet is that rich Thai parents dislike the teachers behaviour as much as you do. Some are happy to speak out others not. Maybe some will follow later, if you lead the way

I don't think that you should go to the teacher directly, after all you have followed the rules and the teacher has clearly broken his. Contrary to Kitch belief, the headmaster of an expensive private school in Thailand does think that his teachers should find out if the pupil has a valid reason or not before taking to corporal punishment. Go directly to the headmaster. It certainly doesn't hurt to tell him that you have talked to several other parents and that they also dislike the teacher taking to corporal punishment depending on his own mood.

No, I don't think that your child will become the object of increased abuse from other teachers (after all, it's a private school and they want your money), I think that your child will be better treated in the future.

Don't be surprised if several of your teachers say that your child is doing better in school now after you complain

If you're really angry, then you could demand a written explanation as to why the teacher invoked corporal punishment even though a perfectly valid reason existed. The school will most likely refuse to answer in writing, mail is stronger than handing over the letter personally. I don't know what the goal would be with doing it really, don't think it would achieve anything (more) than what complaining to the headmaster would

Edited December 17, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[Scott]

It's true that a parent shouldn't make a complaint directly to the teacher. If you personally know the teacher you might want to find out just what transpired. However, the proper course of action is to go to the administration who will address the concern.

With younger children, especially children who are well-behaved, punishment can be traumatic. It's also not out of the realm of possibility that the infraction was different from what the child reported. Younger kids don't always get things straight. However, that still doesn't excuse hitting the child which is against the law. The school needs to address this issue.

Older students will sometimes outright lie about what happened and why. In my experience with older students, there is a significant amount of physical punishment and the students don't tell their parents because they know they will receive equal or worse treatment at home. This doesn't make it right.

[MikeyIdea]

With younger children, especially children who are well-behaved, punishment can be traumatic

I absolutely agree Scott. Most young children WANT to do well and being punished when you haven't done anything wrong or don't understand what you have done wrong sometimes really hurt them. I try to teach parents to look into the eyes of the child, get eye contact, many western parents are pretty bad at this, Thais are (generally) much worse. If we look into their eyes, we can often see younger childrens eyes water when it happens.

It's not what we feel that matters, it's what the kid feels. If they understand wrong, then it's our job to teach them. If we don't look, then we'll not know and we can't help them

Edited December 17, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[PattayaParent]

Do you know how many years have passed since corporal punishment of children by teachers was made illegal in your country of origin?

In the States, this happened in the early seventies. It's also about the time when kids started ignoring parents, the teachers and administration.

But, they are so much better, emotionally!

I'll go take a time out now ......

Exactly the same in UK.

[PattayaParent]

i'm reading these replys and dont think any of the posters have children. As a parent i can say this with no uncertain terms if my child comes home and tells me he/she has been beaten by anyone at school. I am in my car and at the foot step of whomever touched mychild. I can assure you that after our meeting they will know that to touch my child again will be ot their own personal risk.

We pay the school to have a safe place for our children to learn and to be taught important issues such as responsibility, reliability, accountability if my child fails to comply with a rule tell me i will make sure the deciplin is administered.

If I'd have gone home from school and told my parents that I'd been punished by a teacher I'd have got a good beating from my parents for doing wrong in school.

[MikeyIdea]

Pattayaparent - Teachers in Thailand were in the past known to take to corporal punishment without checking too carefully if it was motivated or fair or not. Things have improved but the OPs issue prove that it's not entirely good yet. Without being personal, I'd say that what you describe is likely to foster the opposite of how I want my daughter to see me. I want her to see me as the first one that she can go to for advice when she has a problem as a teenager, what you describe would make her go to her same-age friends for advice. I mean nothing personal, OK

I agree with Scott

Older students will sometimes outright lie about what happened and why. In my experience with older students, there is a significant amount of physical punishment and the students don't tell their parents because they know they will receive equal or worse treatment at home. This doesn't make it right.

Edited December 17, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[coalminer]

Unless there is evidence that the teacher is applying too much physical punishment for minor indiscretions, my only reaction would be to explain to your daughter the difficulties that some teachers have in trying to get a whole class full of students to do what is asked of them.

When there is enough evidence of verbal/corporal abuse, your only reaction wouldbe to explain to your son/daughter that you were waiting until the teacher caused an injury?

Besides the mental injury that can be done to my child by the teacher who hit her with a metal ruler (she did nothing wrong) bodily injury can have been donewithout any visible marks.

I have a friend who went to school in the late fifties and a teacher slapped him in the face with his hand for not paying "enough" attention.

The blow of the hand palm was enough to brake his hearing organ and let him deaf on one side.

What would you tel if it happend to your child, Mighty Mouse?

"There is no evidance of bodily injury?"

[coalminer]

Or (as a further and more radical alternative) move to another country where corporal punishment of children is illegal, which appears to be what you really want.

Aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

The unevitable reply from an authority on everything Thai: "Go back to yuoor country".

[coalminer]

I know that the school policy on corporal punishment as well as practical classroom discipline will be very high on my list of questions before my child sets foot in any school. If you don't agree with their policy, then how can you send your child to that establishment ? If you don't, know their policy, then you have failed your child.

Tell me, torrenova, which school in Thailand will be admtting (on paper) that they use verbal/corporal punishments and therefore are acting against the law?

[coalminer]

The OP has asked what he should do.

I have a fair amount of experience in this area, but in the end it is up to you to decide what to do.

Corporal punishment is against the law in Thailand (but then so is not wearing a helmet when riding a motorcycle). Like a lot of laws/rules/regulations, this is subject to interpretation by some schools. Schools have pretty much heeded the law and quit caning students. A significant number of schools still use the ruler on the open palm. For some strange reason they seem to think this is OK. I've seen done to entire classes.

Once you have settled down, you might want to either call or go into the school and explain your feelings about your 7 year old daughter being hit for an offense that really isn't her fault. (If you know the teacher personally, you could talk directly to him/her). If you express concern, but not anger and aren't threatening, then it is likely that your daughter will cease being hit without being mistreated for 'ratting out a teacher.'

I can assure you that complaints from parents are taken VERY seriously--especially if it is a private school.

Thanks for your reply, Scott.

English is not my primary language and thus it is not easy for me to write exactly what I wanted to say.

But it seems that you and some other ThaiVisa members have understood my OP and responded adequatly.

The verbal/corporal punishment was done to more children that day.

Many children didn't take a swmsuit to school as it was very cold here that day (even a swissman died from the cold).

I have no intention to talk to the teacher directly for personal reasons.

But I have the intention to talk to the headmaster about this and try to find out if she knows that a teacher is hitting children with a metal ruler.

But I will go to the headmaster together with other parents who have the same feelings as I do.

One man's opinion can be swiped of the table, but many people's opinion can make the school to reconsider their approach.