Present Perfect Tense

[maxcherry]

Question: Have you done your homework?

Affirmative: I've done my homework.

Negative: I haven't done my homework.

Question: Have you eaten your breakfast?

Affirmative: I've eaten my breakfast.

Negative: I haven't eaten my breakfast.

[PeaceBlondie]

Looks fine. Now, to set the pot boiling:

Of course, in American English, with a bachelor's in English from a fine university, the present perfect wouldn't even be necessary. You could say, "Did you eat breakfast?" And the correct answer could be "Yes, I did" or "No, I didn't." However, Americans often use the present perfect, and the examples you posted would be fine without appearing overly formal. And no matter how much the Brits protest, it's no more right/wrong than humour/humor or odor/odour.

Max, why is there any doubt in any native speaker's mind that your opening post has anything wrong with it? Are you just starting to pick a fight?

[maxcherry]

Looks fine.  Now, to set the pot boiling:

Of course, in American English, with a bachelor's in English from a fine university, the present perfect wouldn't even be necessary.  You could say, "Did you eat breakfast?"  And the correct answer could be "Yes, I did" or "No, I didn't."  However, Americans often use the present perfect, and the examples you posted would be fine without appearing overly formal.  And no matter how much the Brits protest, it's no more right/wrong than humour/humor or odor/odour.

Max, why is there any doubt in any native speaker's mind that your opening post has anything wrong with it?  Are you just starting to pick a fight?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am writing my lesson plan for my TEFL certification and I want to be spot on.

[Neeranam]

Question: Have you done your homework?

Affirmative: I've done my homework.

Negative: I haven't done my homework.

Question: Have you eaten your breakfast?

Affirmative: I've eaten my breakfast.

Negative: I haven't eaten my breakfast.

I would not use this example.

If I did, I would answer YES, I have.

or NO, I haven't.

I would use another example which would indicate ANY time in the past, not just today(with breakfast).

Have you (ever) been to Chiang Mai?

Yes, I have.

No, I haven't.

[otherstuff1957]

I think if you change the sentence to:

Have your finished your homework?

The use of present perfect would be much more natural.

A: Yes, I have.

N: No, I haven't.

[withnail]

Probably easier to start with statements before questions or negatives and explain why we use the present perfect and not other tenses. If your examples are to be at the beginning of a lesson the students might just think that it is used to answer questions that start "Have you" when in fact as Neeranam points out the short answers are more natural.

You should explain that the present perfect looks at an indefinite time in the past whereas the past simple usually refers to a specific time. This is where American and British English differ for if PeaceBlondie was to say to me "Did you eat breakfast?" I could as a British English speaker say "When? Today? Yesterday? Last year?"

(Not trying to pick a fight )

Some examples you could use are:

I've been to France three times (In my life)

It's been hot recently (The last few days and maybe tomorrow)

I've eaten breakfast already (Just recently)

I've lived in Thailand for 4 years (Hopefully for many more)

Edited April 20, 2005 by withnail

[Neeranam]

I've lived in Thailand for 4 years (Hopefully for many more)

I think Pres. Perf. Cont. is better here.

I have been living in Thailand for x years, especially since you say (Hopefully for many more).

[withnail]

In that example there is no real difference between PP Simple or Continuous. The same as with How long have you worked here/been working here. This is because the verbs live and work already suggest an idea of a period of time.

Also didn't want to balls up the original lesson. He's in training and if he accidently dropped the wrong tense in the lesson a student might say "But Teacher isn't that PPC" leading to panic/heart attack/instant failure of TEFL course.

Edited April 22, 2005 by withnail

[Neeranam]

In that example there is no real difference between PP Simple or Continuous. The same as with How long have you worked here/been working here. This is because the verbs live and work already suggest an idea of a period of time.

Also didn't want to balls up the original lesson. He's in training and if he accidently dropped the wrong tense in the lesson a student might say "But Teacher isn't that PPC" leading to panic/heart attack/instant failure of TEFL course.

Quite withnail!

In my own experience, I have been working here for 6 years (continuously).

I worked for another 4 years prior to this, so I have worked in Thailand for 10 years! Just to confuse things

[Welshman]

As someone who will shortly be joining your ranks in Thailand, may I raise a point regarding the wisdom (or otherwise) of explaining to Thai students the differences in nuance which can be implied in the way a reply is phrased.

These certainly exist in British English (and in my own language, Welsh).

This can happen in both the cases argued here along with the none use of contractions.

For instance:

'Have you had your lunch yet'?

Would normally illicit the reply 'No' or 'Not yet'.

However if I were to ask the same question and received the response

'No, I have not had my lunch yet'

I would probably draw the inference that the respondent hadn't had his lunch and was not happy about it, probably because something or someone had prevented them from having it.

In a similar way the none use of contractions can alter the tone of a response. For example:

'Are you coming to the party tonight'.

The response might be 'I can't' or 'I can't go tonight'

However, if the respondent were to say 'I can not go to the party tonight' it could imply either impatience on their part (as in feeling that they are being harrased by the questioner) or that some unwelcome event or duty is preventing them.

The same process can also reflect mood

'My car won't start' (resignation)

'My car will not start' (anger and/or frustration).

Any suggestions ?

[PeaceBlondie]

Welshman, my only suggestion is that your nuances are much too minor. The average Thai teacher with BA and MA speaks at the level of a 5th or 9th grader in a native country. Some of the nuances are pure pedantry.

Foreigners aren't hired to teach grammar in Thailand; the Thais over-do that. We should concentrate on speaking and listening, then on reading and writing sentences that flow well.

Some of the points you're making, while theoretically sound, are affected by national accent and practice, by intonation, and by context. Pedantry plays right into the hands of the grammar 'Nazis' who think language is a science.

You're right - but below master's degree level, it wouldn't matter in Thailand. They need to start speaking English fluently.

[bannork]

As someone who will shortly be joining your ranks in Thailand, may I raise a point regarding the wisdom (or otherwise) of explaining to Thai students the differences in nuance which can be implied in the way a reply is phrased.

These certainly exist in British English (and in my own language, Welsh).

This can happen in both the cases argued here along with the none use of contractions.

For instance:

'Have you had your lunch yet'?

Would normally illicit the reply 'No' or 'Not yet'.

However if I were to ask the same question and received the response

'No, I have not had my lunch yet'

I would probably draw the inference that the respondent hadn't had his lunch and was not happy about it, probably because something or someone had prevented them from having it.

In a similar way the none use of contractions can alter the tone of a response. For example:

'Are you coming to the party tonight'.

The response might be 'I can't' or 'I can't go tonight'

However, if the respondent were to say 'I can not go to the party tonight' it could imply either impatience on their part (as in feeling that they are being harrased by the questioner) or that some unwelcome event or duty is preventing them.

The same process can also reflect mood

'My car won't start' (resignation)

'My car will not start' (anger and/or frustration).

Any suggestions ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please write the Welsh for: 'have you had your lunch yet?' I'm planning a visit to my stepfather soon in Anglesey and I want to impress him with my 'local' approach.

[the scouser]

Wyt tyn wedi bwyty?

What would really impress is referring to Anglesey by its Welsh name, Ynys Mon and the icing on the cake, twll dyn pob sias - there's a clue in "sais" (sais = saxon = English)

Scouse.

[withnail]

Wyt tyn wedi bwyty?

What would really impress is referring to Anglesey by its Welsh name, Ynys Mon and the icing on the cake, twll dyn pob sias - there's a clue in "sais" (sais = saxon = English) 

Scouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you just made that up for a laugh

[the scouser]

I don't bugger around with my parents' native tongue.......

Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad, and all that.

I have misspelt "sais", though. It should be "saes".

Scouse.

[withnail]

I wouldn't fancy coming round your place at xmas to play scrabble.

[Welshman]

######, mucked it up Edited April 27, 2005 by Welshman

[Welshman]

Welshman, my only suggestion is that your nuances are much too minor.  The average Thai teacher with BA and MA speaks at the level of a 5th or 9th grader in a native country.  Some of the nuances are pure pedantry.

Foreigners aren't hired to teach grammar in Thailand; the Thais over-do that.  We should concentrate on speaking and listening, then on reading and writing sentences that flow well. 

Some of the points you're making, while theoretically sound, are affected by national accent and practice, by intonation, and by context.  Pedantry plays right into the hands of the grammar 'Nazis' who think language is a science.

You're right - but below master's degree level, it wouldn't matter in Thailand.  They need to start speaking English fluently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe they are minor, but I remember a colleague of mine who was teaching EFL to a mix of nationalities (including many Chinese) and they had problems with contractions and asked her that precise question 'does it make any difference'.

I also notice that, in James Parmelee's section on 'Thai problems in Learning English' that he says that Thais will often answer a question much in the way the original post of this string refers to so wondered if you were asked such a question whether it better to try and go through it or tell them to forget it.

Anyway, many thanks for your response, it's alsways useful to get the gen direct from people who are doing the job - much appreciate it.

Edited April 27, 2005 by Welshman

[RamdomChances]

Wyt tyn wedi bwyty?

What would really impress is referring to Anglesey by its Welsh name, Ynys Mon and the icing on the cake, twll dyn pob sias - there's a clue in "sais" (sais = saxon = English)

Jesus Scouse how many languages do you speak? I'm thinking of recinding my offer of a beer as as all the languages I know you appear to know better and it could be embaresing.

[Welshman]

Wyt tyn wedi bwyty?

What would really impress is referring to Anglesey by its Welsh name, Ynys Mon and the icing on the cake, twll dyn pob sias - there's a clue in "sais" (sais = saxon = English)

Jesus Scouse how many languages do you speak? I'm thinking of recinding my offer of a beer as as all the languages I know you appear to know better and it could be embaresing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The correct phrase would be 'Wyt ti wedi bwyta?' However, if I were addressing my father I would use the 'proper' form of address rather than the 'familiar' which would come out as 'A ydych chi wedi bwyta'

Incidentally, 'lunch' is one of those effeminate Sais terms - we normally refer to the mid-day meal as 'cinio' (dinner)

and if you were to offer me a beer you would ask 'wyt ti'sio cwrw?' which would be a contraction of 'wyt ti eisio cwrw?'

But be careful in Mon - the Welsh there are not quite house-trained yet and are still inclined to eat the odd Sais for 'cinio'

Edited April 28, 2005 by Welshman

[the scouser]

if you were to offer me a beer.........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But not a chance on a Sunday

Scouse.

[bannork]

Wyt tyn wedi bwyty?

What would really impress is referring to Anglesey by its Welsh name, Ynys Mon and the icing on the cake, twll dyn pob sias - there's a clue in "sais" (sais = saxon = English)

Jesus Scouse how many languages do you speak? I'm thinking of recinding my offer of a beer as as all the languages I know you appear to know better and it could be embaresing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The correct phrase would be 'Wyt ti wedi bwyta?' However, if I were addressing my father I would use the 'proper' form of address rather than the 'familiar' which would come out as 'A ydych chi wedi bwyta'

Incidentally, 'lunch' is one of those effeminate Sais terms - we normally refer to the mid-day meal as 'cinio' (dinner)

and if you were to offer me a beer you would ask 'wyt ti'sio cwrw?' which would be a contraction of 'wyt ti eisio cwrw?'

But be careful in Mon - the Welsh there are not quite house-trained yet and are still inclined to eat the odd Sais for 'cinio'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Learning Thai is a piece of cake compared to 5 consonants in a row Welsh, though no doubt ,w and\or y are doubling up as vowels. Hats off to the pair of you, Scouser and Welshman, you could form a very elitist club, the Thai\ Welsh club, English strictly forbidden; membership could be rather slow but would certainly be of high quality.