How To Sue A University?

[Dakhar]

Typical statement, from the type of individual that could not be accepted to any university.

That said, I wish the OP the best of luck, but honestly, I doubt seriously the university in question, willl ever care. Much like Bush never learned, you can not influence cultures from the out side. A society will change, on its own terms, not by others.

[docholiday123]

Typical statement, from the type of individual that could not be accepted to any university.

Nah, its just that you guys are so desperate for something to moan about that you will take up any cause. Accounting errors happen, especially when it comes to school billings.

The amount he has to pay is <10% more than he expected to pay.

And he is going to sue over it because he does not want to see anyone else get screwed. AND its not about the money. ITS about the principle!

I bet OP is going to make one really mean NGO'er when he gets done with his elite education!

[Dakhar]

Can an education in Thailand be called "elite?" I can think of other terms like, "Waste of time, Waste of money" etc.

[RakJungTorlae]

the 1^st step would be to find a lawyer. Secondly pay him. 3erdly find a translator for the lawyer. fourthly, pay him some more. 5^th do that run around again to make him understand what was really going on. 6! Take up a religion and pray.

[docholiday123]

Lets hope he got $21800 a semester worth of Elite Chinese-Thai pootang, although from the sound of it, he probably spent most of the time locked in his dorm room playing video games and writing letters to The Nation.

(post edited to remove mention of the thai newspaper which does not exist on thai visa.)

[RakJungTorlae]

Can an education in Thailand be called "elite?" I can think of other terms like, "Waste of time, Waste of money" etc.

But they hire Pilipino and Belgium professors!!!!

[BangkokJazz]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

After enduring graduation ceremonies for the 7th time, accompanied by the university's orchestra, I would say, no. Definitely not a musician.

Apparently is wasn't a Mahidol graduation.

While I do not discount JR's passion, and there is of course corruption and problems, to tar the entire education system with the same brush (which is what always happens on these threads), is unfair. The current Education minister has been a pleasent surprise, and for every corrupt administrator JR names, I can name another who is dedicated and caring. Of course, their is more corruption and problems, that must be dealt with and challenged - but its not all bad, and to focus on the negative, without mentioning any of the positive - is an unfair characterization.

[thunder30101]

Ummm care to mention any of the positives ?

[RakJungTorlae]

Ummm care to mention any of the positives ?

na, I already learnt where papaya comes from.

[BangkokJazz]

Ummm care to mention any of the positives ?

Certainly - as many long term teachers can attest, the Thai Educational system HAS improved over the past few decades. The current Ed Minister's TQF (Thailand Quality Framework) with regard to curriculum development was recently described by an associate of mine (past pres of the international school association of SE Asia) as being a huge improvement for secondary school and university curricula.

The current government's policy of 12 year free education (even if it is not a reality due to the problems of funding) is a step in the right direction of recognizing the "right' of education for 12 years. There are some fine universities in Thailand, and some very excellent programs. Of course not all programs at even the best universites are excellent, but if you want to major in Business at Chula, PolySci or Law at Thammasat, Science, BioTech, Medicine or Music at Mahidol, etc. you will be getting a quality education.

For continued development - teacher pay must be improved, teacher continuing education programs must be adopted, and state teacher certification programs must be implemented. In addition - funding for school buildlings must be improved, and class sizes must be reduced.

I'd say that assessment is pretty fair, as I was calling for previously.

[zaza]

It is a very difficult procedure to "sue em", the facts you'd mentioned proves you have a worn out "ready made suit" there

[JR Texas]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

After enduring graduation ceremonies for the 7th time, accompanied by the university's orchestra, I would say, no. Definitely not a musician.

Apparently is wasn't a Mahidol graduation.

While I do not discount JR's passion, and there is of course corruption and problems, to tar the entire education system with the same brush (which is what always happens on these threads), is unfair. The current Education minister has been a pleasent surprise, and for every corrupt administrator JR names, I can name another who is dedicated and caring. Of course, their is more corruption and problems, that must be dealt with and challenged - but its not all bad, and to focus on the negative, without mentioning any of the positive - is an unfair characterization.

I did focus on positives..........but placed more emphasis on negatives (read again).

I am sick and tired of treating liars and cheats with a soft glove.

It is what it is.

[RakJungTorlae]

It is a very difficult procedure to "sue em", the facts you'd mentioned proves you have a worn out "ready made suit" there

I smell I hi-jacking! All we need now is bkkjamie and the Thai lady with 50 IDs are we got our self’s a frat party!!!

[BangkokJazz]

Or a musician...in an addenda to JR's comments.

After enduring graduation ceremonies for the 7th time, accompanied by the university's orchestra, I would say, no. Definitely not a musician.

Apparently is wasn't a Mahidol graduation.

While I do not discount JR's passion, and there is of course corruption and problems, to tar the entire education system with the same brush (which is what always happens on these threads), is unfair. The current Education minister has been a pleasent surprise, and for every corrupt administrator JR names, I can name another who is dedicated and caring. Of course, their is more corruption and problems, that must be dealt with and challenged - but its not all bad, and to focus on the negative, without mentioning any of the positive - is an unfair characterization.

I did focus on positives..........but placed more emphasis on negatives (read again).

I am sick and tired of treating liars and cheats with a soft glove.

It is what it is.

Then call them out, by all means. But your three posts on this topic could hardly be construed as "focusing on the positive". Your positives were that there are a select few programs that might be marginally acceptable, but really its all crap and you should go study in Singapore etc... I feel the positive energy. Hope its carbon neutral - otherwise I would get 8 pages of links added.

[Ijustwannateach]

Dear Lukelady,

I'm going to guess what happened to you. Probably, some middle-level manager who has too much power and seniority for his/her level of competence has royally screwed up. It's his/her fault, but it can't be made to be his/her fault even by upper level managers who are nominally his/her 'boss,' because they are even more incompetent/detached from the actual implementation of policies. Meanwhile there is no one who is really responsible to you, the student, while the system waffles around looking for a way to avoid responsibility (as a primary goal).

Unfortunately, at this stage there are few good options for you. If you do nothing, they will be happy to ignore the problem and let you founder as they have already demonstrated. If you get a lawyer involved, it MIGHT focus some minds (if there are any minds available) into resolving the situation at an early stage, for example after an initial letter- it will not be what you want exactly, and it will not make up for your wasted time, and it will not entirely address responsibility- but if this happens, take what is offered and be grateful. Because if this DOESN'T happen, the most likely result is an endless court battle which you most likely cannot win- either due to finances or to influence- and even if you *do* win it will take years and years and years.

Great system, huh?

[caf]

Dear Lukelady,

I'm going to guess what happened to you. Probably, some middle-level manager who has too much power and seniority for his/her level of competence has royally screwed up. It's his/her fault, but it can't be made to be his/her fault even by upper level managers who are nominally his/her 'boss,' because they are even more incompetent/detached from the actual implementation of policies. Meanwhile there is no one who is really responsible to you, the student, while the system waffles around looking for a way to avoid responsibility (as a primary goal).

Unfortunately, at this stage there are few good options for you. If you do nothing, they will be happy to ignore the problem and let you founder as they have already demonstrated. If you get a lawyer involved, it MIGHT focus some minds (if there are any minds available) into resolving the situation at an early stage, for example after an initial letter- it will not be what you want exactly, and it will not make up for your wasted time, and it will not entirely address responsibility- but if this happens, take what is offered and be grateful. Because if this DOESN'T happen, the most likely result is an endless court battle which you most likely cannot win- either due to finances or to influence- and even if you *do* win it will take years and years and years.

Great system, huh?

As a possible scenario, you are spot on.

[KhaoNiaw]

Certainly - as many long term teachers can attest, the Thai Educational system HAS improved over the past few decades. The current Ed Minister's TQF (Thailand Quality Framework) with regard to curriculum development was recently described by an associate of mine (past pres of the international school association of SE Asia) as being a huge improvement for secondary school and university curricula.

Absolutely agree with this. TQF is sure to come up against stiff resistance in some quarters, but I'm very encouraged. It's going to mean a lot of work but big things may come of it.

[MrHammer]

Lets hope he got $21800 a semester worth of Elite Chinese-Thai pootang, although from the sound of it, he probably spent most of the time locked in his dorm room playing video games and writing letters to The Nation.

(post edited to remove mention of the thai newspaper which does not exist on thai visa.)

I don't think tuition is that bad though. Can get in for 120,000 baht pr. semester. Well worth it for said 'bunnies'!

[caf]

Ummm care to mention any of the positives ?

Certainly - as many long term teachers can attest, the Thai Educational system HAS improved over the past few decades. The current Ed Minister's TQF (Thailand Quality Framework) with regard to curriculum development was recently described by an associate of mine (past pres of the international school association of SE Asia) as being a huge improvement for secondary school and university curricula.

The current government's policy of 12 year free education (even if it is not a reality due to the problems of funding) is a step in the right direction of recognizing the "right' of education for 12 years. There are some fine universities in Thailand, and some very excellent programs. Of course not all programs at even the best universites are excellent, but if you want to major in Business at Chula, PolySci or Law at Thammasat, Science, BioTech, Medicine or Music at Mahidol, etc. you will be getting a quality education.

For continued development - teacher pay must be improved, teacher continuing education programs must be adopted, and state teacher certification programs must be implemented. In addition - funding for school buildlings must be improved, and class sizes must be reduced.

I'd say that assessment is pretty fair, as I was calling for previously.

How has it actually improved in practical terms. Your penultimate paragraph talks of what must be done not what has been done. Tqf is described as an improvement but what are the actual achievements.

The Thai way it seems is to talk about improvements but not to be too bothered about putting them into action. But I am open to seeing a list of what has been done. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong. Thais deserve better.

[thunder30101]

I have to agree with caf on this one, I see alot of good talk but thats all it is, in my short time teaching here what I see to be the problem is an old entrenched heirarchy of admins and teachers whos only goal is to keep the system as it is and wait for the white envelopes to show up. The per capita expenditures on education here in thailand compared to the quality of education delivered is a farce. A 95% failure rate on the toefl with the amounts being spent on english instruction, whats up there ? Its really sad to have first year college students who have had 12 years of english and countless hours of private instruction that cant speak or understand even basic english, let alone write a simple paper. But then everyone passes dont they.

[MiG16]

Its really sad to have first year college students who have had 12 years of english and countless hours of private instruction that cant speak or understand even basic english, let alone write a simple paper.

is it really 12 years of English in Thai schools?

anyhow, before this turns into a discussion of the teaching quality at schools and uni's in Thailand, lets keep this back on topic as to advise for OP with regards to the situation

cheers

[caf]

The answer to that is easy. In practical terms it is useless to sue. Possible in theory, of course.

Until the system is improved so that Thais are allowed and encouraged to think there will never be challenges to a system that effectively stops them taking real action in the case the op mentioned.

[Kitsch22]

Thank you all again, esp. Mr/Mrs Noise and KITSCH. If you have specific questions, you may write mail (PM) to me.

Have a good day.

The specific questions which I listed in post #7 were intended to help you decide whether or not you have a valid claim. I do not need the answers to them; you do.

At present you have advanced no facts sufficient to raise even a prima facie case against the University for either breach of contract or negligence. Or did the University initially agree that they would keep teaching you indefinitely beyond the planned schedule without further fee until you achieved a pass?

[geriatrickid]

I concur with Kitsch.

As an aside, aren't the fees published in the "calender"? Administrative errors happen at western unis too. If the fees/tuition were as per the schedule of fees and someone erred in the invoicing of such fees, it does not make for much of a case, because the correct fee was still due. I have looked at some of the international program listings and the schedule of fees for Thailand so I do know that such schedules exist.

If this program was offered in conjunction with a non-Thai uni, then you may wish to discuss the matter with the foreign uni. For example, there are joint degree programs offered with 1 Canadian and 1 U.S. institution and there are agreements in place to address matters such as this.

BTW, there is no point stressing over this. It doesn't help. I recall blowing an organic chemistry final and I thought the world was going to end. I had to write 2 exams the next day and I was close to having a coronary. Fast forward many years, and guess what? I was an arse to stress over it because I survived, life went on and no one has ever quizzed me on cis/tran structures since. You just received a very good lesson in real life Thai business practice and culture. Move on.

[Lukelady]

I'm the OP of this thread, and this is my 2^nd summary. Thank all for your sharing of opinions and insight. I'll summarize this thread with following relevant topics.

1. The Issue of Justice and Injustice
   There may be thousands of laws and regulations while people's interactions are in zillions. We all have and will enter the interactions and exchanges where no clear laws are written. When issues and disputes arise in these "grey areas", what are expected to be done?
   I would expect that negotiation, claim of accountability, responsible solutions and corrective actions to take place, but of course, this is too innocent and it may not even happen in a saints' world.
   In my case with the university, I'd followed all the written requirements in the print and in administration's email messages which had acted as a closed-group bulletin.
   That whole incident appeared like an oversight and/or mis-interpretation of university's definition about registration and tuition policies, oral examinations, and the qualification for fee-waiver status. The affected scale was 23% of my batch of students, and almost 50% of next batch, so average 34% when the incident happened.
   When the administration realized they'd under-charged by mis-understanding the tuition policies, they informed and advised all affected to take the oral examination with inadequent regards to students' readiness to take the exam. As far as I know, no apologies were made to students, either. The administration got a huge ass to be saved, that's why they rushed and bullied students, which was considered a "solution" to their hot potato problems.
   As I had followed the admin's instructions to extend my study and paid the required registration fee, so I didn't quite comprehend the "new policy" or the "realization" of the right/wrong policy, or its impact on me. No one from the admin called me, either. Until two months later, the explosive impact – that we had to pay an extra about US$1,800 or to take an oral examination – was revealed, and it was like 20 days before the deadline.
   When you followed the instructions given by the authoritative source of information but their mistakes made your course of work at risk of failure, you did sense the injustice and wanted the just corrections. But in my encountering with this Thai university system, all the intended corrective actions and amending efforts turned into a bigger, darker and fast engulfing black hole. It's a whirling storm that just looked too dangerous to get close to, but for those who were already in this system, we could only be sucked in.
   

1. The Legitmacy for a Trial Case, and the Worthiness
   The administratives and whatever mistakes they made were shelved since they have all left the posts. The shortage of tuition-(account)-receivable is either written off or pardoned. There was no case about the breach of contract, but the case of negligence and neglecting students would probably withstand the case. The tricky part in this case was the argument about the consequential loss from the neglect. It's actually "students' gain by paying less. Therefore the admin head accused that we students took the advantage, later she corrected, used the advantage of their oversight.
   We followed admin's instructions, so we ought not bear the responsibilities for the loss of school's tuition. However, admin's mis-informing had resulted in our confusion and inability to make decision for our management of research and the oral examinations. The mis-informing and the sequential poor risk management worsened students' already dependent and vulnerable situation.
   I just stated the legismacy for a trial case, which is the mis-management, mis-informing, the oversight and negligence of the university, the faculty and the program administration that had repeatedly caused students (let them be the educational entities or the paying customers) expose to the risk of making the wrong decision towards their critical steps in the study and to the risk of failing their examinations and their study.
   Is this case in discussion a "David and Goliath" scenario? Can I afford to be David? There is one recent story about a David who studied law and sued his law professor in his university over plagiarizing his semester paper. It took him 10 years to win over that law professor. Ten years for a law professional to win a case with obvious evidence and clearly written law (polarization is illegal)! It took that long partly because the defendant is a law professor. How long it'll take a foreigner like myself to argue with a Thai well-established institution and some habitually defensive characters in hope to erect the rights and wrongs, accountabilities and responsibilities in the grey area of law?
   
2. Thai Street Smart and World Wise
   Many forum participants shared your sights and advise into this matter. I appreciate all. Some postings and messages are harsh and cynical while others heart-felt and constructive. All and all have substantiated the spirit of the forum – the collective of information and reflection, and the extraction of survival tips, the street smart and the world wise.
   
3. Quality of Education
   1. 
      

Living in Thailand and traveling to other less developed countries make me realize the "powerless of the able classes." Having no intention to touch on the issue of selfishness as it's been widely talked about, I by far have seen the dependence of the better-off classes and group of people on the institutions erected in their home societies. This dependence has made us powerless and vulnerable, even hypocritical, in any forms of criticism and reforms. Mind you, corruption, patron-client relationships and others are, to various extent, being institutionalized as well. In other words, they (or we) all co-hibitate in this systematic and institutionalized world. There are still improvement and hard-working people as many friends had commented and shared some seemingly improvement in the Thai educational systems. To state today's last sentence in this message regards to quality issues, allow me to share one of my favorite motto: "An organization, no matter how well designed, is only as good as the people who live and work in it." (Dee Hock)

Happy New Year 2010. Wish we all have new insights and renewed energy.

[thunder30101]

I really hope this degree wasnt awarded for english.

[Ijustwannateach]

Lukelady,

Most likely any avenue you pursue outside the university will result in more expense than any avenue arranged within the university- and will additionally risk your continued enrollment there. Good luck.

[Kitsch22]

Accepting the risk that I may appear even more harsh and cynical than I have already, please let me advance my own summary.

The following appear to be significant facts:

1. You are not able to formulate your account of the relevant events in a way that shows that you have a case that is properly arguable as a claim in law.

2. You cannot afford to hire a professional lawyer to marshal the true and demonstrable evidence and then tell you if you have a viable claim and, if so, to pursue it for you.

That being the position, you need to put all this behind you and move on. Your present approach will lead to a heightening obsession and, eventually, misery for you.

[Curt1591]

... universities ... exist to generate income for administrators.

In general, beyond grade school, most institutions, worldwide, are simply businesses. They create a market for obscure texts, written by obscure professors. They create a market for outrageously priced, obscure software. They create jobs for many "experts" who can't compete in the real world.

Unfortunately, like the little ribbons and medallions on the Thailand's white breasted syncophant's uniforms, one can't advance without them!

[Lukelady]

I really hope this degree wasnt awarded for english.

No. It was not.