German Tourist Killed By Hit-and-run Driver In Pattaya

[Tanaka]

When I first came to Thailand there was a push by the authorities to ban dark or mirror coatings on windows, which like all things in Thailand was eventually pushed to the sidelines

May be part of the reason for posters comments about Thai driver anonymity, if you can't see them they don't feel there are any consequences

It is actually illegal to have the windscreen tinted or mirrored. Ever seen a BiB do anything about that? If you are buying a new car, they ask you how much coverage you want on your windows! All of them! And you if you decline, they will be very surprised and try convince you it is good to have.

>I once rented a car with a mirror film on the windscreen. I had to remove it because the car was impossible (for me) to drive in the dark. If you have a 60% tint or mirror film on your windscreen, your vision is limited by some 40%. Go figure. At least 14% of all road accidents in Thailand are due to poor vision according to statistics.

[Captain Jack]

Real world calling here, you guys all over-estimate the influence of spirituality. This issue is a more basic one of Thai mentality. The fact is that Thai people are selfish. They don't actually care about other people. If you don't care then why do something silly like indicate? It doesn't help you yourself in any way, doesn't ease your drive, so why bother? That's the Thai mentality. You see it everywhere in every day life here.

It's 'cos of the way they're brought up, look out for yourself and your own at all costs, 'cos they will look after you when you are old/injured/unemployed/lazy/drunk. What does it matter what you do to other people? What does it matter if you kill other people? Sure you get bad karma, but that's when you go to the temple and buy an expensive amulet (sorry, not 'buy', receive in exchange for a generous donation) and wide it all away.

Fascinating people

[LTGTR]

Yeah,I'm sure the Pattaya Mutts are looking around the clock for this murderer.Just another dead falang to them.How sad.Condolences to his family who will never have closure.

[syd barrett]

Can someone confirm that this German man was the same German man who threw a puppy dog to his death from a balcony in Naklua apartment four days ago.

It has been suggested that this is a revenge killing on the PDN news website.

Link to German dog killer below.

German Dog Killer Naklua

[Hanuman2547]

I've never heard of "zebra crossings", but I have heard of a "crosswalk".

Zebra crossing/Crosswalk

Same Same!

[sbk]

Can someone confirm that this German man was the same German man who threw a puppy dog to his death from a balcony in Naklua apartment four days ago.

It has been suggested that this is a revenge killing on the PDN news website.

Link to German dog killer below.

German Dog Killer Naklua

I've looked at the comments on the article about the hit and run and I don't see anyone implying the dog killer, named Jo btw, is this man who was named Woflgang.

[Hanuman2547]

I think the one that struck in my visit last summer down in the Hua Hin area ...was Thais do not read. Further from Hau Hin along the posh coast near Banbury there were scores of Farang reading, books, papers or laptops along the beeches and hotel pools. It struck me you never see a Thai reading - they sit on their bums eating, gossiping and watching but never reading. They are fundamentally a semi-peasant society.

No........Thais are always reading.......Dragon Ball Z, Doreaman, and other assorted comic books, as well as anything about Man U.

[ManilaLover]

Well in a county where even drivingschool owners can't drive properly, where police does not obey the trafficrules themselves and nobody cares about safety and 30 year old cars without lights, brakes and insurance are normal you really think there will ever be any improvements ? Stop daydreaming, this is a sinking ship as you know.

Since the 15 years I walk around here the only things that being renewed and updated are immigration rules !

[baht&sold]

Well in a county where even drivingschool owners can't drive properly, where police does not obey the trafficrules themselves and nobody cares about safety and 30 year old cars without lights, brakes and insurance are normal you really think there will ever be any improvements ? Stop daydreaming, this is a sinking ship as you know.

Since the 15 years I walk around here the only things that being renewed and updated are immigration rules !

'Manila' Lover, thanks for making a case for this point of view:

First, sincere condolences to the family of the poor guy.

On the wider issues raised, just an observation:

The majority typical Expat whinge/response may be largely justified, however, IF ALL ills

in Thailand were corrected as stated by many (education, law enforcement, safety standards,

etc, etc, ad nauseum) one suspects many of those complaining would neither like the changes,

nor be able to afford to live or visit here any more.

Ie: Thailand becomes Singapore (or heaven forbid UK, USA, Sweden, etc) replete with similar

nanny state mentality, taxes to support all the improvements, cost rises and commensurate prices.

It will come (of course) and with it, many who scream/whinge for its haste, will be gone as a result.

(ironically probably to the next least developed country

Meanwhile, perhaps take care out there (and in here) and just try to enjoy with caution (- and foresight).

Edited December 22, 2009 by baht&sold

[oMega69]

There is a new traffic law . . you get a 500 THB fine is you not stop if some one walks out on a zebra crossing .

[baht&sold]

Well in a county where even drivingschool owners can't drive properly, where police does not obey the trafficrules themselves and nobody cares about safety and 30 year old cars without lights, brakes and insurance are normal you really think there will ever be any improvements ? Stop daydreaming, this is a sinking ship as you know.

Since the 15 years I walk around here the only things that being renewed and updated are immigration rules !

'Manila' Lover, thanks for making a case for this point of view:

First, sincere condolences to the family of the poor guy.

On the wider issues raised, just an observation:

The majority typical Expat whinge/response may be largely justified, however, IF ALL ills

in Thailand were corrected as stated by many (education, law enforcement, safety standards,

etc, etc, ad nauseum) one suspects many of those complaining would neither like the changes,

nor be able to afford to live or visit here any more.

Ie: Thailand becomes Singapore (or heaven forbid UK, USA, Sweden, etc) replete with similar

nanny state mentality, taxes to support all the improvements, cost rises and commensurate prices.

It will come (of course) and with it, many who scream/whinge for its haste, will be gone as a result.

(ironically probably to the next least developed country

Meanwhile, perhaps take care out there (and in here) and just try to enjoy with caution (- and foresight).

PS: as my Father wisely states:

"Wherever YOU go in this world, there YOU are, self-baggage and all, again and again"...

Thus, be careful with whatever false expectations you bring, along with your own 'self-luggage'... (but try to learn, enjoy and please take care)

Edited December 22, 2009 by baht&sold

[simro]

I was hit whilst on my motor bike with my Thai wife sitting in the pillion seat, the pickup driver went through a red light, my wife went to the hospital and I was told to go to the police station and report it, my wife was released and came with me, I hold a Thai licence which usual helps, but it does not help if the Thai driver gets to the police station and pays the police first. The interview was in Thai, there was little compensation and the Police tried to intimidate me into signing a statement in Thai, I said no in Thai and walked out. Totally disgusted!

So what I am trying to convey is that the Thai people do not worry about people or even people who are Thai, it is everyone for themselves, pedestrian crossing are for those who want to commit suicide!!

It appears the German tourist is just another victim that will not be reported to the rest of the world, how many people will have to die in this country for someone to do something?

In civilised countries if people die during holidays they make more laws and put more police on the streets, but of course if you are just a visitor you are not worth anything except for the change in your pocket.

[AskTheCPT]

[...]

Today I had a bike with a male driver a woman on the back and a kid sandwiched between them, cut me off then proceeded to weave in and out to get around the baht bus. 5 times he nearly hit my car. Then finally the woman driver started absusing me for endangering them. Go figure.

Car bigger than bike ........ mmmm

car hits bike ..... mmmm

bike falls over ..... mmmm

car does not fall over .... mmmm

people on bike get hurt .... mmmm

people in car do not get hurt ..... oh

but here car pays for stupid bike driver and damage ..... go figure

I have the opposite experience - very often cars drive without any regard to bikes, squeezing them, blocking them, the mentality seems to be "if I have to be stuck in traffic in my car the dam_n bikes have to be stuck too!". If you had given him half a meter he could safely have negotiated past you and have been out of your hair in a few seconds.

Another thing though, is bicyclists and motobikes unfortunately can easily drive on the sidewalks to avoid the cars, taxis and trucks.

[baht&sold]

Summary:

Majority ThaiVisa Expat 'REAL' whinge after their 'baggage' is peeled?

'We want readily available cheap girls n grog, at all hours, with little interference'.

BUT, we also want ALL the surety, safety and assurances supplied like our 'superior' nanny state (at approx 1/5th the cost)

OR, we'll head out to the next under-developed country and continue to whinge there.

ZZZZzzzzzZzzzz....

(post not directed to the very unfortunate departed, and may his family find peace)

[miruph]

Summary:

Majority ThaiVisa Expat 'REAL' whinge after their 'baggage' is peeled?

'We want readily available cheap girls n grog, at all hours, with little interference'.

BUT, we also want ALL the surety, safety and assurances supplied like our 'superior' nanny state (at approx 1/5th the cost)

OR, we'll head out to the next under-developed country and continue to whinge there.

ZZZZzzzzzZzzzz....

(post not directed to the very unfortunate departed, and may his family find peace)

Seconded. One cannot have ALL.

RIP

Edited December 22, 2009 by miruph

[bri1guy]

He Died in a Happy place,

When someone passes away,

We ache, but we go on;

.

Grief is a normal way to mend

The anguish and pain in our hearts;

We need time to remember and time to mourn,

Before the recovery starts.

Let's draw together to recuperate,

As we go through this period of sorrow;

Let's help each other,

To find a brighter tomorrow

[ryladie99]

My condolences to the family and friends of the victim.

Thanks for saying wonderful thing...My heart and soul go with the victum's family and friends...

May all of your Christmas dreams come true...

Risa

[mca]

Some people have claimed that the nature of driving here is simply Thai culture. I rather disagree. There is no 'culture' about it. There is no tradition. It is simple inconsideration for the lives of others. I can't think of any other way to spin this one. It certainly is not all Thai people. However, the curse of offensive, aggressive, and dangerous driving does seem to afflict a disproportionately high number of people on the roads here.

Exactly. There's no spin on it. It's pure and utter selfishness. "Me first and f3ck you."

A while ago at KKU they installed a smallish roundabout. There were signs and instructions (in Thai) instructing vehicles to give way to traffic already on the roundabout coming from the right. I use this roundabout a couple of times a day. Apart from myself I've seen perhaps 3 other folks give way. The hordes of other drivers couldn't give a sh#t.

Now there are only 3 possible conclusions.

1) The 100s of drivers who use this roundabout every day can't read.

2) The 100s of drivers who use this roundabout every day are mentally retarded.

3) The 100s of drivers who use this roundabout every day are selfish.

Back home while working for my fathers trucking company I held an HGV 1 license with Hazpack which meant I could drive the big petrol tankers artics. I also had an IAM car and bike license. They don't hand these out everyday with your Tesco Club card. So (at the risk of sounding big headed) when it comes to driving I consider myself fairly able to judge what makes a good driver.

A very large number of Thais are nowhere near.

If the mods feel this is generalizing about Thais against forum rules so be it. But I'm not going to dispute the evidence of 15 years of my own eyes.

[brahmburgers]

Yesterday in Bangkok I twice used a zebra crossing; one of the newer ones with traffic lights. When the lights changed some of the traffic did not even bother to stop, in fact one black Vios increased its speed past an already dangerous velocity to beat me attempting to cross the road, and in doing so almost hit me. Every time I use these crossings I am extra careful as Thai drivers have little or no regard for the pedestrian.

Wait just a minute, I have seen Farangs do the same, it is not always just the Thai and it can happen anywhere on this planet. Sad but true. There are many good Thai and Farang drivers, I would be quite sure at 2:30AM the driver was drunk. Did they say he was Thai? Casting stones with little or no information can cause problems. Rest his soul.

I have to agree with this. Seems we quickly take on the driving habits of the locals. I am amazed at how farangs drive around here. Just as bad as the Thais. I am blown away how bad the farangs drive on scooters. Totally insane...especially given how everything thing is over here. Also, agree with many other posts. Thai drivers are no way near the worst in the world. Just worse than where we come from....mostly...

Having just spent the past week covering thousands of extreemly repetative miles on the Thai roads, in particular in the Bangkok & Pattaya area it amazes me there are not wrecked cars strew all over the side of the roads every few kilometers. Some of the pickup, minibus and bus drivers in particular are fatal accidents waiting to happen.

Come on Chronic Thai Apologists Club members, do you really believe farang visitors here drive as bad as Thai? Granted, some farang drive badly here, but get real - Thais are terrible drivers, and some of their worst drivers don't even know how awfully they're driving. Most Thais consider themselves polite and devout Buddhists, yet what % would stop at a busy street and allow a group of monks to cross the street? How about zero %.

[Scott]

Thailand has a very high accident rate. It's not genetic, but it does relate to not being taught how to drive and not having proper law enforcement. In most societies politeness goes out the window when people get behind the wheel of a vehicle. Vehicles, like internet forums, provide a kind of anonymity that doesn't bring out the best in people.

[TaoNow]

At least Scott presents some objective data to judge the safety level of using the roads in Thailand. Also, consider the possibility that those who can afford to buy a vehicle or are hired drivers may be the more aggressive persons in society. So there is a selection bias.

Based on one full year of daily walking around Phuket town, I have found that the vast majority of drivers respect the traffic lights and crosswalks. Sometimes, I am out on the streets as early as 5 a.m. and am impressed by the proportion of motorcyclists and car drivers who wait patiently for the traffic lights to change even though the intersection is deserted and no police are in sight.

A simple test of how well Thai drivers respect the crosswalk marking would be to have a (brave) friend repeatedly cross the road at a given intersection over a period of, say, one hour while you count the number of vehicles that stop and those that swerve around or honk at the pedestrian. Then report your data back to the forum.

[moe666]

Were I am from if you have a dust up with another driver you hope they are not carring a gun.

[connel707]

hope they catch the ratbag

R.I.P.

Part of the joys of Thailand... poor guy, sincere condolences to his family, it could have been any one of us... Chang beer , Thai whiskey and driving do not mix well... Happy Christmas everyone...

[beammeup]

Some people have claimed that the nature of driving here is simply Thai culture. I rather disagree. There is no 'culture' about it. There is no tradition. It is simple inconsideration for the lives of others. I can't think of any other way to spin this one. It certainly is not all Thai people. However, the curse of offensive, aggressive, and dangerous driving does seem to afflict a disproportionately high number of people on the roads here.

Exactly. There's no spin on it. It's pure and utter selfishness. "Me first and f3ck you."

A while ago at KKU they installed a smallish roundabout. There were signs and instructions (in Thai) instructing vehicles to give way to traffic already on the roundabout coming from the right. I use this roundabout a couple of times a day. Apart from myself I've seen perhaps 3 other folks give way. The hordes of other drivers couldn't give a sh#t.

Now there are only 3 possible conclusions.

1) The 100s of drivers who use this roundabout every day can't read.

2) The 100s of drivers who use this roundabout every day are mentally retarded.

3) The 100s of drivers who use this roundabout every day are selfish.

Back home while working for my fathers trucking company I held an HGV 1 license with Hazpack which meant I could drive the big petrol tankers artics. I also had an IAM car and bike license. They don't hand these out everyday with your Tesco Club card. So (at the risk of sounding big headed) when it comes to driving I consider myself fairly able to judge what makes a good driver.

A very large number of Thais are nowhere near.

If the mods feel this is generalizing about Thais against forum rules so be it. But I'm not going to dispute the evidence of 15 years of my own eyes.

4) All of the above.

[beammeup]

Summary:

Majority ThaiVisa Expat 'REAL' whinge after their 'baggage' is peeled?

'We want readily available cheap girls n grog, at all hours, with little interference'.

BUT, we also want ALL the surety, safety and assurances supplied like our 'superior' nanny state (at approx 1/5th the cost)

OR, we'll head out to the next under-developed country and continue to whinge there.

ZZZZzzzzzZzzzz....

(post not directed to the very unfortunate departed, and may his family find peace)

Seconded. One cannot have ALL.

RIP

I don't want a Nanny State but I would like the roads to be safer. I could never understand why the cops dont fine more people for traffic violations its a licence to print money. Its win win for all!!??

[Oberkommando]

On the other hand, when you cross anyoldwhere, using caution, Thai drivers are actually quite accommodating to you

In Bangkok especially, I've never, ever found that to be the case.

Even motorbikes ride on the pavement and expect pedestrians to move for them <deleted>.

Don't I just love Thai bashing in here, Thais this Thais that.

True there are many ruthless drivers in Bangkok, but 30 years I have born and lived here there are far more plentiful good drivers in the country, Bangkok is just a weird chaotic city.

I ask you foreigners to stop generalising from the fragment of the country that you see (especially if you spend most of your time in Sukhumvit, that's not really Thailand). It's very immature to think you know this country and everyone in it through and through, and not fair for Thailand as well.

Your road death toll speaks volumes; 35 dead per day and the actual figures are probably double that.

I am not Thai bashing, but Thais deserve to be criticised for their arrogant and careless attitude when behind the wheel.

Your wilful ignorance of this massive problem is one of the main reasons your country has one of the worst road accident rates in the entire World.

The incident I described in my earlier post happened on Charoen Krung not Sukhumvit. Is that not really Thailand either?

[neverdie]

I was in Pattaya about 6 weeks ago. I was as the left hand turn on the beach road entrance to Walking street. I was walking with my 2 friends. I slowed down to look at them to see if they were ok. Anyway, the traffic was a nightmare as usual there, and it was slow. I was on the road, but the footpath there is very crowded and many people were walking on the road. The driver of a pickup obviously got upset, and drove right up behind me. His bullbar touched my back. Then the engine revved and he put the car in first gear. I was knocked flying onto the road. He then sped off to a stop light up the road. No great gain for him. It was a deliberate hit and run. There are so many people around that area at night.

I complained to the tourist police the next night. they are a wast of time. They sit at the table at the beginning of walking street. Doing nothing. What they should do is have someone on 'point duty' there. They could rotate times.

In the end, I can not figure what the advantage to the driver was. Merely to deliberately knock me over and then get held up at the red light just down the road. It is a CRAZY way to think. My back was injured, skin off, knee slightly wrenched, and very sore muscles the next day. And this resulted from a standing start. I can not imagine what the German tourist went through being hit at a high seed.

So let me get this right, you were run down and then waited 24 hours to report it (next night) & expected the Police to do 'backflips' to help you. GET REAL!

No doubt you had a skin full when you approached them the next night, ranting and raving about why the tourist police are sitting there, doing nothing about the traffic snarl that has been there every night at the same time for the last 30 years.

[neverdie]

The witness could not remember the license plate of the truck

I just want to believe that so much.

Strangely enough, its very common (& Im not talking about THAILAND) for this to be the case. If you do some research on the subject, you will find its commonplace for witnesses & victims of truamatic incidents to focus on one part of the event & they are often also unable to pin point details. Further to this, its also possible for several witnesses all to recount an incident with varying details and its not because any of them are lying.

Its highly probably that a witness to this event did not capture and record the vehicles numberplate.

[PhilHarries]

Summary:

Majority ThaiVisa Expat 'REAL' whinge after their 'baggage' is peeled?

'We want readily available cheap girls n grog, at all hours, with little interference'.

BUT, we also want ALL the surety, safety and assurances supplied like our 'superior' nanny state (at approx 1/5th the cost)

OR, we'll head out to the next under-developed country and continue to whinge there.

ZZZZzzzzzZzzzz....

(post not directed to the very unfortunate departed, and may his family find peace)

Seconded. One cannot have ALL.

RIP

I don't want a Nanny State but I would like the roads to be safer. I could never understand why the cops dont fine more people for traffic violations its a licence to print money. Its win win for all!!??

Don't waste your time with these "nanny state" bleating cretins. Sure they'll sound off on internet fora and in pubs about the bluddy nanny state but let something like this incident happen to THEM. Jeez, they'll be screaming to all and sundry STOP THE WORLD, GET MY LAWYER, CALL THE POLICE, WHERE'S MY EMBASSY PERSONNEL, GET THE UNITED NATIONS!

As you say it's not unreasonable to expect a level of law enforcement and for the police to act impartially but no these d*ckheads want it like Dodge City as long as it applies to others and not to them or their families.

[Garry9999]

I live close to a Thai high school, every morning hundreds of kids arrive on motorbikes.

Most don't wear helmets.

Few would be old enough to have the appropriate licence.

Often there are 3 or 4 kids on one bike.

All seem to have no regard for road rules.

All seem to be oblivious to any danger.

This all takes place in front of police, teachers, parents and community leaders.

And these kids are the next generation of car drivers!