Bangkok To Become World Class City

[dr_Pat_Pong]

God ... they'll be fixing the central BKK footpaths next.

[ovenman]

It does sound like the Masterplan is just another way to squeeze loads of money out of the Government and pass it to all the old cronies who run the construction companies, etc. Don't you get the impression that they keep coming up with these projects just to keep the money rolling into all these big businesses?

I think that accurately describes the underpinnings of most big infrastructure projects that are either proposed or ongoing. I'm sure that the authorities truly would love for Bangkok to be a world-class-city, the hub of <insert hub-of-the-week here>, or whatever grandiose scheme is being touted at any given moment, but most important of all is making sure the appropriate pockets get lined.

[MaiChai]

I think you folks are missing out on the cultural angle with the broken footpaths. Thais are not in the habit of walking like us Europeans. For even the shortest distance, they get on a motorbike, or motorbike taxi! Thus, you don' need good footpaths: ones that aren't broken or not full of food vendors. Also, the food vendors serve a purpose, right? See it from the Thai point of view

Regarding big projects that money the rich Thais: I remember over 10 years ago, there was virtually no dual carriageway roads. Every link between every town was a single carriageway. Now 10 years on virtually every main road between two towns is a dual carriageway. In fact they are running out of trunk roads to do, so they have now started on the less important trunk roads. Eventually every main road will be a dual carriageway, whether it does or does not require expanding.

I don't want to be too negative; I can see that the overall idea is a good one; the real question is why they don't do a proper consultative process over a reasonable period, to ensure they get it right? Sounds like they just want the budgets so they can start spending asap.

Edited April 24, 2005 by MaiChai

[ovenman]

I don't want to be too negative; I can see that the overall idea is a good one; the real question is why they don't do a proper consultative process over a reasonable period, to ensure they get it right? Sounds like they just want the budgets so they can start spending asap.

That's the impression I have of the ongoing major roadwork in Chiang Mai. For those not familiar with it, the authorities decided they would upgrade the major junctions on the inner and middle ring roads with underpasses. Nice idea and ultimately this will be welcome, but the manner in which is being implemented is questionable. Construction was started on all junctions simultaneously, which made using these roads like an obstacle course at every junction. Surely this work could have been better plannned and executed in a less disruptive manner, but one gets the impression that the matter of utmost importance was getting that budget spent as quickly as possible.

[Martin]

I don't want to be too negative; I can see that the overall idea is a good one; the real question is why they don't do a proper consultative process over a reasonable period, to ensure they get it right? Sounds like they just want the budgets so they can start spending asap.

That's the impression I have of the ongoing major roadwork in Chiang Mai. For those not familiar with it, the authorities decided they would upgrade the major junctions on the inner and middle ring roads with underpasses. Nice idea and ultimately this will be welcome, but the manner in which is being implemented is questionable. Construction was started on all junctions simultaneously, which made using these roads like an obstacle course at every junction. Surely this work could have been better plannned and executed in a less disruptive manner, but one gets the impression that the matter of utmost importance was getting that budget spent as quickly as possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Getting that budget spent as quickly as possible" is something copied from the West. I sort of drifted into local politics in Yorkshire twenty years ago and was dropped into Vice Chairman of Finance for the West Yorkshire Metropolitan County Council (population about half of Bangkok's). It nearly drove me spare, the way that every department felt that they absolutely had to spend every penny of the budget. At the end of the financial year, it was called "The mad March scramble" (to get it all spent).

It is a bit ironic that so often postings on this forum are, in effect, saying "The thais are incompetent because they don't follow the West" and now they are being criticised because they are doing!!!

Personally, I would rather have rough-and-ready pavements/sidewalks and a VAT of 7% than immaculate pavements/sidewalks and a VAT of 17 1/2 %. But then I am just an oddball who would rather spend his own money himself rather than hand most of it over to some politicians to have an army of public servants spending it!

[fire and ice]

Maybe I'm mistaken, and this is the joke of the day. What cities are truly world class: London, Paris, New York City, Los Angeles? And consider what problems those cities have!

Los Angeles?? You’ve got to be kidding! Its just a big city - there is not much that is world class about it (its too spread out & the population density is too sparse). The **ONLY** reason so many people live there & why entertainment is based there is due to the utterly perfect weather, but the city or greater metropolitan area itself isn't 'world class' by any measure of the term.

London, Paris, New York = yes & you could also add Tokyo, Sydney & keep adding some more but not LA !!!

Though who knows, if you can believe what many geologists and economists are saying, oil will be extremely expensive in 20 years, and traffic won't be much of a problem

This is not likely - the price of oil can't go up by more than about 1.5 times it's present level (+inflation) because oil can be also extracted (expensively) from coal, oil-sands and shale.

There is a zillion years supply of oil via these resources & the extraction cost, even of shale oil - the most expensive, makes the maximum price about $110 a barrel (I'm not sure this figure is still current).

Since so many countries have reserves of coal, oil sands (most oil sands are in Alberta) and shale (there are cubic miles of shale available!!), there is strong competition past certain $/barrel prices. This means the oligopoly of OPEC & other oil producers is non-existent once oil reaches a certain price - there are few supply limits with alternative oil supplies either.

Also note that **IF** Bangkok actually gets all its proposed new subway & BTS lines then traffic would be massively reduced in Bangkok. Although I think they'd need an extra line or two (such as one following Pechaburi Rd) to really do a good job of it. info on the new lines is available on the BTS & MRTA website (when the websites actually work that is... ).

[eljeque]

Great post except for one small item

Also note that **IF** Bangkok actually gets all its proposed new subway & BTS lines then ******traffic would be massively reduced in Bangkok.******

Although I think they'd need an extra line or two (such as one following Pechaburi Rd) to really do a good job of it. info on the new lines is available on the BTS & MRTA website (when the websites actually work that is... ).

I believe, and I hope that others do offer their views, that as mass transportation improves, and some people get off the buses and onto the skytrains and into the subways, that many automobile drivers will simply be happy about the traffic level staying at a certain level. It is like gaining weight. You never lose it, you just learn to become comfortable with the slight increase.

[pal78]

I'm afraid I don't fully understand the views of those who think that this is some kind of joke, or that nothing can be done, etc. Similarly I fail to see how major improvements are not possible or likely to happen in the next 20 years or so. Okay, so referring to a city as "world class" might be a bit far fetched, isn't it good that we recognize problems, look for solutions, set a goal to achieve, set a "realistic" time frame for achieving the goal and then work towards it.

I am sure few would expect Bangkok as a city to be anywhere close to Singapore within 20 years, I don't think it's possible either. Bangkok is just a completely different city. Very little, if any of it's development was planned properly, or early enough to make it close to being good, let alone "world class". But think about Bangkok 5 years ago compared to Bangkok today. This "developing" nation has achieved a lot in 5 years. The BTS and current underground systems, despite their hiccups, have made a major difference. When the extensions of these systems go ahead (and I see no reason why they won't, but please do let me know if you think otherwise) the traffic problems won't go away, but they won't be as much of an issue for as many people. Many complain about the traffic here. The 1/2 million people using the skytrain and underground each day don't have to be among them. Eventually all these systems will improve.

Transportation issues will always be a big factor in the planning and development of the city, but it's positive that there is talk of the social development and improvement which runs deeper. Again, I'm aware that politicians talk and most of it is simply talk, but let's not be to hasty to judge. At least not when they are talking about things which do make some sense.

I see Bangkok's biggest problems centering around bridging gaps. There are many things that could be done here to make the city more "pleasant" and "civilized" and "cleaner" for us longing for such things. And there's no reason why we shouldn't want all those things. But the problem is: how do we bring everyone along for the ride. Bridging the gap between rich and poor will take longer than 20 years. But I think that might have to happen first, before Bangkok can seriously call itself "a livable city".

[PeaceBlondie]

But what about 'Thainess,' or Thai culture? Isn't it Thai-y to have broken sidewalks crammed with vendors and beggars, street food, soi dogs, and a million pedestrians? Singapore is sterile; "one night in Bangkok makes a strong man humble." Can you imagine Singapore having a street like Sukumvit underneath the BTS station by Lumphini Park, crowded with vendors saying "Sex CD?" or "Girls with Ping Pong Balls?" or "Ladyboy show!"

[Greer]

PAL78 is absolutely correct.

Bangkok needs to start somewhere, or more correctly, needs a plan with which to continue the upgrades that have already come into existence. As has been mentioned here, think of Bangkok as it was years ago, and compare it with what we have now. Over ten years ago the roads were much worse even though we had far fewer vehicles, simply because the proper infrastructure was not in place. It's not wonderful now, but it is one ###### of a lot better than it was, and I am proud to live here.

Bangkok is not alone in having awful traffic problems - try driving through London or LA for example - no they are not as bad as BKK, but the UK is a fully developed nation with complete planning going back hundreds of years, and the USA is also a developed nation...they shouldn't have problems at all, should they?

Singapore has been quoted as an example of the right way to do things, or at least as a model city...hey...they had Lee Kuan Yew there and the WHOLE world criticised the country and complained it was run by a dictator because he rode rough-shod over what the people wanted and made them accept what he wanted.

I lived in Singapore during some of that time, and the way the development went, it was obvious that big business was pulling the strings, but it was done in a way that eventually benefited the country and the people - so that today it is seen as a great example of how to do it right. Do remember that Singapore is about 23Km by about 40Km and has a population around 3 million - if Bangkok had such a small population we would be laughing...

The power cabling, the telephone cabling, the roadways and the pathways all must be improved - absolutely! The street vendors, the tuk-tuks, the trucks, cars, buses and motorcycle taxis all must be controlled to better the environment and help ease pollution - completely true.

There has to be improvement in infrastructure, they do have to get rid of the slums, and yes they do have to relocate those living in places like Klong Toey beside the black klongs etc.

There MUST be land zoning, as is now starting in many parts of the country. The basic education must be improved to provide the Kingdom with a workforce that is better equipped for the modern local and international business world.

We could go on and on about all the problems that we have - but tell me about any other city in the world that has not faced these problems - not one - many still are!

Bangkok is belatedly trying to start putting solutions in place, and we are here to witness it.

My point is this - I agree that maybe the way the plan was derived is not the best, but at least there is a plan of some sort.

If they don't start somewhere they will not get anything done at all.

Then we would all be complaining about that instead…..

[Golf]

The plan is wonderful. The time frame is not that bad. The budget is there. What else we need? Right, the good government officers to carry out this goal. But I think it's hard to be realized since Thailand still has a lot to learn about "giving the right job to the right man". Most officers still have the outdated attitude as being the bosses. They don't know that they are "public servants", not the bosses. They also tend to favor the "influential" ones who give them money. The laws are extorted and not protect people.

I think "people" is the first and formost that must be be improved.

Golf

[DaveYo]

Ha, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! First Class my foot. Thailand still has to graduate to third class and then to second class. I would say Bangkok and Thailand are about a good 50 years behind the grand scale. In order to be First Class they have to match USA ---> style for style, living for living, earnings for earnings, economy for economy, construction for construction, infrustructure for infrustructure and military for military, and polictics for polictics.

See my point. Until that day that they can match the USA Standards completely, then they will be first class.

Daveyo

[Golf]

Agreed! Most Thais want to be the best or world-class in something, but don't know how! If I said something the way DaveYo said, I would be giving a disgusting look and here comes the all-time famous questions, "Are you Thai?", "How can you say such comments?".

Golf

[sonthaya]

World class toxic waste dump more like it!

No money in the world would make me live there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then don't live there, we won't miss you

[rstrauss]

London, Paris, New York = yes & you could also add Tokyo, Sydney & keep adding some more but not LA !!!

New York? Oh no! Give me San Franzisco instead, or Boston.

True world class cities are in Europe: Zurich , Amsterdam , Hamburg , Vienna , Berlin .

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Ha, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  First Class my foot.  Thailand still has to graduate to third class and then to second class.  I would say Bangkok and Thailand are about a good 50 years behind the grand scale.  In order to be First Class they have to match USA ---> style for style, living for living, earnings for earnings, economy for economy, construction for construction, infrustructure for infrustructure and military for military, and polictics for polictics.

See my point.  Until that day that they can match the USA Standards completely, then they will be first class.    

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't hold your breath Dave

[terry74]

How do you define "worlclass", I do not think I want to be "worldclass" and the most expensive city to live in, look at Singapore "worlclass" so expensive place to live in also so much control that it has become so boring and restrictive

Singapore has no flavour no culture .

I think Thailand should be promoted as Worldclass Amazing Thailand

For improvements I think the following should be done:-

More Sports facilities stadiums and swimming pools

More Trees, and Greenery, along the roads and everywhere to provide more shade and oxygen in the city, landscaping the city will be better

More Parks for cycling , roller blading

Libraries for the Public, have not seen any of these in Sukumvit area

better THeme parks , like Disneyland, Dreamworld needs to learn alot from the other theme parks

More water worlds theme parks

the MRT or the BTS should be extended to other areas, so less traffic congestion, however the bus services are so cheap, people will not take the MRT/BTS

More Signs in English for th Tourist, especially outside bangkok and some areas in BKK do not have proper signs , signage is also confusing, Pathaya, or pattaya, Jajuchat of Chachuchat confusing for the Tourise like different place but the same

Improvments to the roads with pot holes in them

More information on the BTS/MRT to promote the use on how to get the Chatchu chat using the BTS, must have more brouchures

many buildings need a coat of paint only, why is it too costly for a new cost of paint

I think the term worldclass is not relevant and we should not follow and be trapped with this, thinking out of the box, Amazing Thailand as a exciting place to live in will be better, Mystic, surprising, Diversity,

People done want to see posh concrete building,without culture, so the old should be maintained

Ha, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   First Class my foot.  Thailand still has to graduate to third class and then to second class.  I would say Bangkok and Thailand are about a good 50 years behind the grand scale.  In order to be First Class they have to match USA ---> style for style, living for living, earnings for earnings, economy for economy, construction for construction, infrustructure for infrustructure and military for military, and polictics for polictics.

See my point.   Until that day that they can match the USA Standards completely, then they will be first class.    

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't hold your breath Dave

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[The_Other_Mac]

... In order to be First Class they have to match USA ---> style for style, living for living, earnings for earnings, economy for economy, construction for construction, infrustructure for infrustructure and military for military, and polictics for polictics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally I'm rather glad Bangkok doesn't resemble a U.S. city. I wouldn't be living here if it did.

[Malice in Wonderland]

If the Thai families don't stop their kids eating Mcdonald's or the crap masquerading as "food" in the 7/11's then in twenty years it will a "World Class FAT City" and those broken pavements will collapse under the strain!!!

[NedKelly]

Bangkok may become a world class sity but it will be at the expense of the countries natural areas.......if the generals continue to get their way and corruption among peers in politics continues, then Bangkok will become one of the worlds biggest cities .........world class ? I feel it will always be too big to be world class for all.........just ask the people who live in the tin shanties 50 metres from my place, whom have to squat over the drain at night to pee or crap.......this is world class ?

[cutter007]

Why can't some of Toxins buddies invest in one of the waste removal businesses. At least if they want to skim taxpayer's money they could do it overcharging for waste removal, instead of repaving brand new roads.

Bangkok will never be world class, because the corruption is so engrained in their culture, that there is no efficiency to anything.

[Anon999]

Ha, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  First Class my foot.  Thailand still has to graduate to third class and then to second class.  I would say Bangkok and Thailand are about a good 50 years behind the grand scale.  In order to be First Class they have to match USA ---> style for style, living for living, earnings for earnings, economy for economy, construction for construction, infrustructure for infrustructure and military for military, and polictics for polictics.

See my point.  Until that day that they can match the USA Standards completely, then they will be first class.    

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like comments from a smug yank!

Maybe if Thailand wants all the negatives of the USA and the budget deficit to go along with it then it will do all those things. However, I for one hope it never even thinks about attempting such an idiotic idea. There is certainly no attraction for me to go and live in the 'b......t' capital of the world. That raises the question if DaveYo is so impressed why is he living in Thailand and not the US?

[bangkokian]

Personally, BKK was a much better place to live 20 years ago. The public bus system here has degenerated over the years and now those who cannot afford BTS are actually risking their lives daily on those buses with crazy bus drivers. I have fallen off a bus myself when I was younger. I am not alone. Many have lost their lives because of these reckless drivers who don't even want to stop at the bus stop... They'll just slow down and you just have to jump off at your own risk. True, footpaths have to be fixed, but in some cases they've got to start from scratch--hardly any place to walk in some sois. Many years back there was the so called slum at that back of my soi--Now the concrete slum with skyscrapers and seriously filthy smells from drainage and cars. I didn't have any problem walking in those slum areas of the past (that they have literally burnt down) but the modern rich-people's slum is so bad that I no longer walk to that part of my soi.

I agree that the BTS and MRT has made things easier for me, and hope that more people can benefit from the systems. Anyway, I am a bit nervous about the upcoming micro-chip society.

Los Angeles or New York are not my idea of world class city-- My friends got mugged there. I like KL, Vision City.

[bangkokian]

To answer the q about how the views are gonna be heard, I understand that the Democrat party are making these coffee kiosks/parlous or somthing for public exchange of political views, so this might be one channel. Thaksin has mocked the idea, saying that the coffee thing is what he did when he was 6, helping his dad with the biz. Yeah, selling coffee on the street is really [known to be] a part of Thaksin's past.

[Greer]

I have to agree that the term "world class" is extremely unfortunate.

Who is judging the class of the cities in order to determine which cities are world class and which are not? If it is to be done by those living in Western cities like London, New York or Sydney, you can forget it - their view of world class is skewed by their immersion in their own environment.

Must admit that if Bangkok were ever to resemble those cities, I would move elsewhere.

Why come to Thailand to get away from the lifestyles in the west and then try to turn it into the place you just left? If you love your home country, that's great, but don't then demand that Bangkok becomes another NY or LA or London - if you have reached that point that you really can't stand Thailand being the way it is, then maybe it's not for you.

We may have the right to complain about things that are unfair or unreasonable in this country, but not the right to try to make it observe the rules and ways of a foreign country.

Bangkok is already "world class" in the sense that it is a major hub of business and tourism in Asia, and that means it is a major hub in the world.

What it looks like here, and how obvious the corruption may be is irrelevant. Are there no beggars in London, what do you call the people who wash car windows at intersections in LA? Are they not the downtrodden with no income, who live in the streets, under bridges - who crap in an open gutter...are they not the ones who leave the human-sized "droppings" in the tunnels and walkways of the Metro in Paris?

No matter where you come from or go to in this world there are people living in the streets, there are those who have nothing, there are those who will try to take what you have - tough - get used to it 'cos it's not going away any time soon.

Bangkok must at least have a plan to start to work with, or as I said before - you will simply whinge about them NOT having a plan.

Intelligent criticism is welcome...

[judyel]

Greer wrote:

"Why come to Thailand to get away from the lifestyles in the west and then try to turn it into the place you just left? "

Exactly!

If Thailand looks the same as every other place in the west, why would one want to be there at all?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Greer wrote:

"Why come to Thailand to get away from the lifestyles in the west and then try to turn it into the place you just left? "

Exactly!

If Thailand looks the same as every other place in the west, why would one want to be there at all?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seconded

[fire and ice]

"Why come to Thailand to get away from the lifestyles in the west and then try to turn it into the place you just left? "

Exactly!

If Thailand looks the same as every other place in the west, why would one want to be there at all?

So where is it that people with the above view get the idea that this proposed 'modernising' of Bangkok is all about making ex-pats & tourists happy?

I think the idea is to make Thai residents of Bangkok happy as opposed to making sure the ex-pat playground isn't spoilt by westernisation.

[judyel]

I wasn't saying that Bangkok ought to be more friendly for tourists. I was saying that simply copying the western model isn't the answer.

Certainly, fixing the transit systems, the corruption and pollution might make it more 'tourist-friendly', but Thais will benefit daily from these changes.

[Greer]

Hi Fire and Ice and Judyel - you are of course both quite right.

My family is Thai and the last thing I want is for my adopted country to simply become a little copy of a western country, but having said that, it must be modernised (good choice of word there too!) but with due care to avoid destroying what makes Thailand the place it is.

I have lived in the country for a good many years and must admit to stubbing my toe on my fair share of pipes randomly sticking out of the pavement, or of being hassled by a policeman obviously looking for his "coffee money".

Your point is well made, and well taken.