Disrespect In Thai Wats

[Samuian]

No you are right. I recently saw a documentary which included this very topic and senior (real) long serving Buddhist monks said that there was a definite trend of change in Thai society especially noticeable amongst the rich and better educated young Thais. Most Thais will continue to go to the temple on "auspicious" (love that term auspicious they use a lot here) occasions but really it is just lip service for tradition to make them feel Thai. They don't really believe it or actually follow the precepts.

In other words it has become more of a cultural fun activity rather than a serious philosophy for life. Everybody does it so everybody else just follows along but very few really have a deep understanding (or even respect in some ways) for what is being taught. Interesting to note that the many older senior monks that discussed this on (I think was NGC-National Geographic Channel) thought that it was not a good trend and could only harm Thailand in the long run with materialism taking over from Buddhism!!!

" many older senior monks that discussed this on (I think was NGC-National Geographic Channel) thought that it was not a good trend and could only harm Thailand in the long run with materialism taking over from Buddhism!!"

As nobody is perfect it looks like some is going to learn a lesson they are preaching -

but haven't really grasped the very essence and reality of it, for them self yet -

EVERYTHING is IMPERMANENT!

and even the highest "buddhist ideals" are...!

So are giggling monks, sun glasses (doesn't matter what brand) so are ringin' mobiles, temples, saffron robes, name it!

IMPERMANENCE - rulez!

have a beautiful day, every day - everybody!

[ChiangMaiFun]

No you are right. I recently saw a documentary which included this very topic and senior (real) long serving Buddhist monks said that there was a definite trend of change in Thai society especially noticeable amongst the rich and better educated young Thais. Most Thais will continue to go to the temple on "auspicious" (love that term auspicious they use a lot here) occasions but really it is just lip service for tradition to make them feel Thai. They don't really believe it or actually follow the precepts.

In other words it has become more of a cultural fun activity rather than a serious philosophy for life. Everybody does it so everybody else just follows along but very few really have a deep understanding (or even respect in some ways) for what is being taught. Interesting to note that the many older senior monks that discussed this on (I think was NGC-National Geographic Channel) thought that it was not a good trend and could only harm Thailand in the long run with materialism taking over from Buddhism!!!

But that’s the point – it’s become a ‘cultural norm’ rather than an understanding.

I understand the ‘lack of attention’ gig but it does matter – an extreme would be we see someone about to burn the temple (an extreme lack of respect)and we do…? nothing? This is an extreme of not giving a sh*t about others who are reflecting quietly.

And what do we teach our young…? everything is ‘mai pen rai’? where does it stop? Computer games at Puja? It does matter… it has to matter... even if we, individually, can control our own reaction this is not an excuse for inaction.

[khaowong1]

it's about judgment - not the situation!

To put it another way, as long as we are judging others, we are going nowhere.

this is what my abbot tells me, when I suggest putting up a sign at the entrance to the Vihara saying, "please turn off mobile phones when coming inside".

[khaowong1]

An instance I encountered was at the funeral of my sister in laws husband when the Abbot was chanting and 2 monks further down the line were having a right old giggle together.

Considering the supposed solemnity of the occasion and taking into account the feelings of my family at their loss and the respect they were showing the temple and it's members my sincere apologies but that's just dam_n f#cking rude.

using this kind of language:

"my sincere apologies but that's just dam_n f#cking rude.

is what exactly - expressing respect towards others - you are holding a grudge and aversions against

something you don't know why, what, who.... you are just a witness entangled in several situations as they usually happen simultaneously...keep it cool, clam and collected and you'l be a winner, otherwise queue up with all these losers!

let ém giggle, even laugh at you... who wins, who loses - one day we afre all dead!

That's for granted!

So tiill then oit would be wise to be happy evrý f_ckin, bl_dy, da_n minute, no matter what - NO?

besides the fact that Buddhists and Thai's in particular, view death different than Christians..

[khaowong1]

How observant, no face to be gained from meditation or morality?

There is much more than face to be gained by morality. It's called baramee. Famous examples would be Chamlong Srimuang prior to 1991 (ascetic Buddhist, clean Bangkok governor), Prem Tinsulanonda (clean PM) and Chuan Leekpai (clean PM).

Camerata, would you please explain what means "Baramee"..

[rockyysdt]

Most Thais will continue to go to the temple on "auspicious" (love that term auspicious they use a lot here) occasions but really it is just lip service for tradition to make them feel Thai. They don't really believe it or actually follow the precepts.

Whether it be Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, or other, this phenomena is the same everywhere in the world.

It isn't as much on display in some Muslim countries as disrespect can be met with death at the hands of extremists.

In a consumer world, for the majority, even apparent respect is all about image. In one way those with apparent disrespect appear to be openly honest with their stance in comparison to those feigning care.

Although a Buddhist country, only a fraction will follow or know the five noble truths & the eightfold path.

The level of respect one shows at a Wat really comes down to the individual & where they're at with their lives.

Through mindfulness what you observe can be a barometer of the state of those around you.

It's best to observe without attachment.

[camerata]

Camerata, would you please explain what means "Baramee"..

It's usually translated into English by newspapers as "charisma," i.e. the political charisma of popular politicians. Basically, it means prestige and influence in the community. As I understand it, if you have baramee, people listen to you and you can get things done.

[Lancelot]

IMHO its not only Thailand but pretty much standard behaviour around the world. People are just increasingly self absorbed and in some cases ignorant of acepted manners and concern (respect) for others.

Its just the way it is and I don't see it changing.

Opps, I just got a txt

[dutchguest]

I don't think the situation is so bad as the op suggests. When I visit wats I am seldom confronted with disturbing behavior and, if so, mostly by (ignorant?) foreighners/tourists.

On the contrary, mostly I experience them as an oasis of tranquility. Generally I like the more tolerant, informal sphere in the wats if I compare it with the formal, deadly serious and stiff sphere of the christian churches of my youth (long time ago).

Of course the bounderies between informality and disrespect can be drawn different by different persons and in different situations. (as well as where the freedom of the one ends and of the other begins).

And of course sometimes, e.g. when you didn't sleep well, you can be irritated by everything, e.g. someone talking loudly in a mobil phone whether in a bus or in a wat.

[bangon04]

It does seem to me that one of the prime purposes of going to a Wat is the redistribution of wealth. Lots of people rent a garland or a yellow plastic bucket for a few minutes, and (presumably) the money goes to a good cause or two, or many good causes. Every corner of a large temple compound has a variety of ways to persuade believers to hand over their hard earned in return for inner peace. But it does indeed seem to me that so many are going through the motions in public.

I know there is no apparent conflict between Buddhist practice and all the superstitious rituals found inside the temple boundaries, or the many market stalls,games of chance, fortune tellers etc, and taken as a whole it looks like a major moneymaking corporation. And it seems that the Thais I know do not worry about the monk having the latest 3G telephone and a laptop. They are not phased when the monk puts the plastic bucket on the pile, and the helper collects it and it goes back to the shop. On busy days, the helpers are collecting the garlands evn before the renters have finished kneeling... This is a real example of transience....

[Xangsamhua]

Was intrigued to see monks manning a stall selling amulets at a well-known Chiangmai temple last week.

Is this generally acceptable? I'm not a wat afficionado, but don't recollect seeing the monks directly involved in trade before.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Was intrigued to see monks manning a stall selling amulets at a well-known Chiangmai temple last week.

Is this generally acceptable? I'm not a wat afficionado, but don't recollect seeing the monks directly involved in trade before.

I've seen it at Suthep many times

[Xangsamhua]

Was intrigued to see monks manning a stall selling amulets at a well-known Chiangmai temple last week.

Is this generally acceptable? I'm not a wat afficionado, but don't recollect seeing the monks directly involved in trade before.

I've seen it at Suthep many times

That's where I saw it. Is it peculiar to Suthep?

[mohinga]

Most Thais will continue to go to the temple on "auspicious" (love that term auspicious they use a lot here) occasions but really it is just lip service for tradition to make them feel Thai. They don't really believe it or actually follow the precepts.

Although a Buddhist country, only a fraction will follow or know the five noble truths & the eightfold path.

Huh... I didn't get that memo!

[ChiangMaiFun]

Was intrigued to see monks manning a stall selling amulets at a well-known Chiangmai temple last week.

Is this generally acceptable? I'm not a wat afficionado, but don't recollect seeing the monks directly involved in trade before.

I've seen it at Suthep many times

That's where I saw it. Is it peculiar to Suthep?

It's not, to be fair, prolific... but I have seen it on occasions. Suthep, for me, is one hardly visit unless showing someone new to Chiang Mai around - too many tourists, too many hats and sunglasses!

[camerata]

That's where I saw it. Is it peculiar to Suthep?

I haven't been to Doi Suthep for a few years but aren't the amulet vendors at the bottom of the staircase outside the temple?

[ChiangMaiFun]

That's where I saw it. Is it peculiar to Suthep?

I haven't been to Doi Suthep for a few years but aren't the amulet vendors at the bottom of the staircase outside the temple?

I think he is referring to inside the temple - as you come into the entrance there are some shops selling flowers and incense and amulets to the left

[Xangsamhua]

That's where I saw it. Is it peculiar to Suthep?

I haven't been to Doi Suthep for a few years but aren't the amulet vendors at the bottom of the staircase outside the temple?

I think he is referring to inside the temple - as you come into the entrance there are some shops selling flowers and incense and amulets to the left

On the right when I was there (Sunday 28/12) - an amulet stall manned by two or three monks. Almost opposite the stupa where the people are circumambulating, but a bit closer to the entrance.

[camerata]

On the right when I was there (Sunday 28/12) - an amulet stall manned by two or three monks. Almost opposite the stupa where the people are circumambulating, but a bit closer to the entrance.

With a donation box or pay directly?

[Xangsamhua]

On the right when I was there (Sunday 28/12) - an amulet stall manned by two or three monks. Almost opposite the stupa where the people are circumambulating, but a bit closer to the entrance.

With a donation box or pay directly?

I can't remember, C. I didn't go over for a close-up look. Was too surprised to see what looked like monks manning a little shop. I did think they must have had some way of getting round the no-handling-money rule, but then I also had seen a monk up that way buying things (drink?) from a shop just the day before, so didn't think much about it. Maybe one of the Chiangmai members might like to go up and check it out.

[camerata]

I wasn't so much wondering about the no-handling-money rule (as that is regularly broken these days), but whether the monks were "selling" amulets as opposed to giving them away to those who donate. I was invited to a blessing ceremony at a CM temple and the donation box was pointed out to me after the fancy-looking piece of cord was tied round my wrist.

Of course the root problem is people donating money instead of requisites to temples in the first place. Originally, monks just stamped the amulets out of clay, so they cost nothing to produce and the act of stamping them out was considered to be one that generated merit.