Disrespect In Thai Wats

[camerata]

Perhaps to more easily accept unavoidable/irrevocable change is part of the answer?

Yes, I think so. When we feel that someone is wrong for using a mobile in a temple, for example, we are feeling aversion, one of the Three Poisons (i.e. the three primary defilements). Not judging is a way of accepting that the aversion is impermanent - it will rise, exist for awhile, and then pass away.

[Samuian]

Doesn't mean I agree I'm a Theosophical Buddhist and have a definite belief in a 'Soul'

You may call yourself whatever - it doesn't devalue basic Buddhist philosophical principles!

Not to mention one could easely get the impression that your posts are meant for "testing waters"...

[sabaijai]

Excerpt:

"you would not chat on a mobile at a Wat or Church at a funeral right? it's dis-respectful? my point is only that is IS disrespectful AND not respectful of other people at the same venue - and it's getting worse?"

It is as is... what ever one makes out of it!

it's about judgment - not the situation!

The observer and the observed are not different - it is only perceived as such!

And he/she - the novice, who isn't able to "meditate", find "peace" in crowded,

noisy environment has a loooooooooooooooooong way to go!

keep trying!

It's YOU - not the world around you - this is as is - always, unchangeable - unless you change yourself!

[toptuan]

At a funeral a few months back I was quite astonished at the lack of regard shown for the deceased, according to my Western values those paying their respects should have acted in a more solum and respectful manner.

Instead people were talking, smiling exchanging in light chat, taking phone calls - this was through the speeches. What was more astonishing is that these were members of Parliament !

So, if the senior line up of a nation behaves like this, how is the rest of the nation supposed to act ?

It is becoming apparent that amongst 'some' posturing and deliberately acting carelessly is a show of power, the rest of the nation appears to try copy this 'couldn't give a F$%K' attitude. Luckily there are many who refuse to follow this and hold onto traditional values of respect and good manners.

But they didn't act according to your western values, did they? Shouldn't that be your main point?

I've been to a dozen funerals in Thailand and saw the same things you did. You've got to take off your Western-tinted glasses when you attend these things, if you want to keep your sanity and judgmental attitudes in check.

As to the last bold phrase in your post, I would ask "whose values?"

I see what you are trying to say... I think there are some accepted 'norms' in all cultures - of course when in Rome etc. but it's not a sign of an educated and cultured society to not be silent in a religeous place - sorry but cannot agree with that no matter how long I am here - of course I accept it as TIT.

Oh pul-eeeze! What a narrow little world view we sometimes have. By your all-wise pronouncement above, you have just labeled all of Muslim cultures and large segments of western society as uneducated and uncultured (i.e. ignorant and barbarian). Your own ignorance and subsequent arrogance are appalling.

Apparently you have never visited....

• a moslem mosque. The second most holy mosque in all Islam (Dome of the Rock on Abraham's Mount), sounds like bedlam. So do most other mosques--the loud praying by the worshipers, the noisy family conversations going on in every corner, the Mullah constantly trying to override it all.
  
• a western charismatic church as well. Millions in the USA and tens of thousands in Europe/Asia attend very, very noisy places of worship where the cacophony of vocal participation is the norm--before, during, and after the services.
  
• a black church of most western denominations (from Methodist to Baptist to Pentecostal).
  

Your psyche is still bound by some dead, dusty European monastery cathedral from the middle ages where the monks have taken a vow of silence. And from that mindset, you project your values and judgment on the very alien culture around you.

Edited December 31, 2009 by toptuan

[bina]

Is like the request from a customer I got one day:

Q: "What is this noise?"

A: "A cicada!"

Q: "What is it, can't you switch this off?"

A: "Well Mam' haven't got a shot gun at hand!"

a bit off topic but made me smile: we had a small party at our hotel, quishe/soup/salad by a group of little old ladies from tel aviv, all of them a bit 'lite' religious (head coverings, but knee lenghth skirts and modest shirts-- in israeli everything is very polarized by these small differences) -- anyway, the mezzuin started up since it was ramadan, so the sermon was read over a loud speaker for a longer time than the usual prayers. we hear it all five times a day, very well, due to valley /mountain acousitcs.

the little old ladies very politely turned to our reception person to ask if they could 'close' the noise down. neither he nor the rest of the staff had a clue as to what she was talking about. it took a while to 'register' that what we were used too, she, as a city with no muslem 'sounds' near by, was hearing as noise.

at thai funerals, quiet and respect are not the main points. saying goodby is the point.

if anyone has been in any large or small synagogue, the amount of noise, mumbling, argueing, shuffling, snuffling, (no phones on shabbat however!), going in and out that go on, realize: the place itself is not 'holy', but a place for learning, prayer, contemplation, and tourism also.

proper dress is also a matter of relgiious vx. culture. in israel that point always always stands out: do i or dont i cover my head as a married woman when entering a synagogue- the answer is often depending on whom im with, and to what purpose i am there, and what sect the place is for.

going to the wailing wall in jerusalem u have the same thing: cellphones, noise, argueing, others are praying, crying, eating, whatever. to someone who feels that place deserves repsect or 'holiness', dress and act appropriately. to someone who is just visiting, it depends on them, themselves.

i guess, to reiterate, pay attention to yourself, not others.

bina

israel

[phetaroi]

Another interesting thread today!

A couple of stray thoughts.

In talking with a monk one day when I was still just a visitor to Thailand (as opposed to living here, as I do now), I was lamenting about how difficult it was to visit a Buddhist temple where I lived in America. He replied: "Everything you see here -- the temple and even the Buddha statue -- have really nothing to do with Buddhism. Real Buddhism is in your head."

Someone pointed out that a monk who is interrupted in his meditations by lay people chatting at the temple simply isn't focused enough in his meditations. This happened to me once. I was at Wat Dhebsirin (Thepsirin), and I got there in the early evening when the monks were in the ubosot doing their meditations. I quietly went in, sat and just enjoyed experiencing the situation. Finally, since I had never before found the ubosot open, I decided to take a photo. No flash. The click of the shutter made one of the monks turn around. I was very embarrassed. Later, I got to thinking that if the mere click of a shutter (or the sound of a bird, or whatever other sound) broke the monk's concentration, then he really wasn't focused on meditation, he was just going through the motions.

And finally (at least for now), Buddhist temples in Thailand have a role as community centers. A couple of times in this forum I have lamented how many Buddhist temples are essentially closed up -- wiharns, ubosots...doors locked. Who are those buildings...who is that wat for? To me, overall it's for the community. The monks could simply go out in the forest and meditate; many do. As a center for the community, it's where life goes on. And life includes noise and little disturbances. Which is better...an quiet and empty temple or a slightly noisy temple where people congregate?

[ChiangMaiFun]

At a funeral a few months back I was quite astonished at the lack of regard shown for the deceased, according to my Western values those paying their respects should have acted in a more solum and respectful manner.

Instead people were talking, smiling exchanging in light chat, taking phone calls - this was through the speeches. What was more astonishing is that these were members of Parliament !

So, if the senior line up of a nation behaves like this, how is the rest of the nation supposed to act ?

It is becoming apparent that amongst 'some' posturing and deliberately acting carelessly is a show of power, the rest of the nation appears to try copy this 'couldn't give a F$%K' attitude. Luckily there are many who refuse to follow this and hold onto traditional values of respect and good manners.

But they didn't act according to your western values, did they? Shouldn't that be your main point?

I've been to a dozen funerals in Thailand and saw the same things you did. You've got to take off your Western-tinted glasses when you attend these things, if you want to keep your sanity and judgmental attitudes in check.

As to the last bold phrase in your post, I would ask "whose values?"

I see what you are trying to say... I think there are some accepted 'norms' in all cultures - of course when in Rome etc. but it's not a sign of an educated and cultured society to not be silent in a religeous place - sorry but cannot agree with that no matter how long I am here - of course I accept it as TIT.

Oh pul-eeeze! What a narrow little world view we sometimes have. By your all-wise pronouncement above, you have just labeled all of Muslim cultures and large segments of western society as uneducated and uncultured (i.e. ignorant and barbarian). Your own ignorance and subsequent arrogance are appalling.

Apparently you have never visited....

• a moslem mosque. The second most holy mosque in all Islam (Dome of the Rock on Abraham's Mount), sounds like bedlam. So do most other mosques--the loud praying by the worshipers, the noisy family conversations going on in every corner, the Mullah constantly trying to override it all.
  
• a western charismatic church as well. Millions in the USA and tens of thousands in Europe/Asia attend very, very noisy places of worship where the cacophony of vocal participation is the norm--before, during, and after the services.
  
• a black church of most western denominations (from Methodist to Baptist to Pentecostal).
  

Your psyche is still bound by some dead, dusty European monastery cathedral from the middle ages where the monks have taken a vow of silence. And from that mindset, you project your values and judgment on the very alien culture around you.

This did make me laugh... what have I done to provoke such an emotional response from some of my fellow travelers? some of my posts do come across as provocative - and in some ways are designed too (devil's advocate most of them) to stimulate debate - sincerely held view put forward in a 'lively' way - please do not take offence - I do stand by them by the way - your parallels are not well thought out – there ARE times when noise is fine and I am aware of the places and activities you mention – BUT there are times when it is inappropriate that’s all I was saying.… Swasdee Pi Mai

Edited January 1, 2010 by ChiangMaiFun

[ChiangMaiFun]

Another interesting thread today!

A couple of stray thoughts.

In talking with a monk one day when I was still just a visitor to Thailand (as opposed to living here, as I do now), I was lamenting about how difficult it was to visit a Buddhist temple where I lived in America. He replied: "Everything you see here -- the temple and even the Buddha statue -- have really nothing to do with Buddhism. Real Buddhism is in your head."

Someone pointed out that a monk who is interrupted in his meditations by lay people chatting at the temple simply isn't focused enough in his meditations. This happened to me once. I was at Wat Dhebsirin (Thepsirin), and I got there in the early evening when the monks were in the ubosot doing their meditations. I quietly went in, sat and just enjoyed experiencing the situation. Finally, since I had never before found the ubosot open, I decided to take a photo. No flash. The click of the shutter made one of the monks turn around. I was very embarrassed. Later, I got to thinking that if the mere click of a shutter (or the sound of a bird, or whatever other sound) broke the monk's concentration, then he really wasn't focused on meditation, he was just going through the motions.

And finally (at least for now), Buddhist temples in Thailand have a role as community centers. A couple of times in this forum I have lamented how many Buddhist temples are essentially closed up -- wiharns, ubosots...doors locked. Who are those buildings...who is that wat for? To me, overall it's for the community. The monks could simply go out in the forest and meditate; many do. As a center for the community, it's where life goes on. And life includes noise and little disturbances. Which is better...an quiet and empty temple or a slightly noisy temple where people congregate?

Swasdee Pi Mai,

There is a time and a place for everything - mutual respect (I know you don't think I show much) should be paramount - yes the shutter clicking should not disturb the meditation if strong enough but clicking at such a time may be inappropriate? mindfulness at every stage is part of it right? so I try (and fail of course sometimes) to be quiet and respectful in that setting at all times - surely that's a wholesome appproach?

Edited January 1, 2010 by ChiangMaiFun

[ArthurPewty]

I think too much respect is given to relegion. Baseless asertions about spirits and higher powers do not deserve tangible respect. If it were treated as it is due and question, there would be a lot less of this bunk about today! It is, afterall, 2010!

[toptuan]

This did make me laugh... what have I done to provoke such an emotional response from some of my fellow travelers? some of my posts do come across as provocative - and in some ways are designed too (devil's advocate most of them) to stimulate debate...

Well, I bit on your bait. And I add a little bit of the provocative for the same reason. If it made you happier, so I am as well. Sawadi Pi Mai.

Edited January 1, 2010 by toptuan

[ChiangMaiFun]

This did make me laugh... what have I done to provoke such an emotional response from some of my fellow travelers? some of my posts do come across as provocative - and in some ways are designed too (devil's advocate most of them) to stimulate debate...

Well, I bit on your bait. And I add a little bit of the provocative for the same reason. If it made you happier, so I am as well. Sawadi Pi Mai.

fair enough... anyway all my posts are in good spirit - but I have upset a lot of folk on here by accident really... I just enjoy a good and lively discussion which may be misinterpreted

[phetaroi]

fair enough... anyway all my posts are in good spirit - but I have upset a lot of folk on here by accident really... I just enjoy a good and lively discussion which may be misinterpreted

As I wander through a number of forums on this site and others, I find that each forum has its own "culture" (for wont of a better term). All of us get wound up sometimes and can temporarily cross over an imaginary line. When one is usually responsible -- at least in this particular forum -- people overlook the occasional going over the line.

I think it's good for all of us to focus more on how our manner is perceived by others, perhaps more so because of the particular nature of this forum.

I think back to the only time in my life when I was actively booed. I was teaching in a school that was going to have a program for physically handicapped students. Great! The population was to include all sorts of physical handicaps -- spina bifida, muscular dystrophy, severe burns, etc. During a staff inservice to prepare us, the presenter said about a particular condition (which one I've forgotten, although I do recall that it was related to muscular degeneration), "Scientists have not been able to determine the cause of this condition. There are not even any solid theories about it. However, as teachers who will be interacting with these students, you are at absolutely no risk." I asked, "If you have no idea what the cause of the disease is, how do you know we are at no risk?" Boooooooooooooo. I thought it was a pretty reasonable question among professionals, but apparently I had crossed over that imaginary line of what the group was comfortable with. It's not always easy to determine where that line is...and it is certainly different in every forum.

[ChiangMaiFun]

fair enough... anyway all my posts are in good spirit - but I have upset a lot of folk on here by accident really... I just enjoy a good and lively discussion which may be misinterpreted

As I wander through a number of forums on this site and others, I find that each forum has its own "culture" (for wont of a better term). All of us get wound up sometimes and can temporarily cross over an imaginary line. When one is usually responsible -- at least in this particular forum -- people overlook the occasional going over the line.

I think it's good for all of us to focus more on how our manner is perceived by others, perhaps more so because of the particular nature of this forum.

I think back to the only time in my life when I was actively booed. I was teaching in a school that was going to have a program for physically handicapped students. Great! The population was to include all sorts of physical handicaps -- spina bifida, muscular dystrophy, severe burns, etc. During a staff inservice to prepare us, the presenter said about a particular condition (which one I've forgotten, although I do recall that it was related to muscular degeneration), "Scientists have not been able to determine the cause of this condition. There are not even any solid theories about it. However, as teachers who will be interacting with these students, you are at absolutely no risk." I asked, "If you have no idea what the cause of the disease is, how do you know we are at no risk?" Boooooooooooooo. I thought it was a pretty reasonable question among professionals, but apparently I had crossed over that imaginary line of what the group was comfortable with. It's not always easy to determine where that line is...and it is certainly different in every forum.

Yes very fair points... being an extrovert I tend to talk my thinking - so I can talk something through whilst thinking it through and that can be mis-interpreted. It happened recently when renovating a condo - I was talking to the constructor about something and came in next day to find it done! but, I pleaded, I didnt say 'do it' Iwas just chatting it through... didn't get me anywhere of course! and I tend to write that way - in my career it got me in to trouble more than once!

[bina]

Yes very fair points... being an extrovert I tend to talk my thinking - so I can talk something through whilst thinking it through and that can be mis-interpreted

that would be why u are typing on a keyboard with a time span of thought before pressing the send button... u have the time to re read what u wrote, whereas when u are vocalizing your thoughts, youi cant catch the words and re bottle them. rather like the genie that gives u the wishes that start with 'i wish' and u say 'i wish i could sit down for a moment to think about my wishes', and voila- u get your wish...

not on topic but never mind....

rather funny,

bina

israel

...........

[F4UCorsair]

I am not Buddhist nor a participant in 'regular' religious practice, but I do lean toward Buddhism as a reasonable philosophy on life and the Noble eightfold Path as an achievable code of life laws by which to live.

When in Buddhist countries I visit Wats, and believe I show a great deal of respect for the place and others in the place, and that would include dressing appropriately, not eating/drinking, talking loudly or unnecessarily, walking in front of those observing rituals, and on it goes.

I believe those doing so to be showing disrespect of the same degree as walking across graves in places such as Westminster Abbey or a War Cemetery, for example. It is easy to walk around the grave rather than on top of the actual body position.

I guess it's an example of the standards people are taught/grow up in, or adopt, and I don't feel I am the one to challenge those who transgress my standards. My daughter pointed out some years back that my standards are not necessarily the standards.

Having said all that, why would young Thais be any different from young people of other countries, and I notice a decay in standards (once again, my standards and what I think are reasonable standards) across the world?? With older Thais I have a little more difficulty understanding if they compromise ideals with which they obviously grew up.

Support for religion/religious philosophy has shown a marked decline in the world over the past few decades, and for conventional religions, I understand that entirely, education being the enemy of religious fervourt, but Buddhism is different in that it isn't a religion based on dogma, but rather a philosophy on life.

It will be interesting to see if Thais show a decline in respect for the Monarchy (knowing the reverence in which the Thai Royal Family are held), and if so, that would, in my mind, show that there is a decline in standards (there's that word again) just as the rest of the world is experiencing.

[IMA_FARANG]

With all due respect I must say that what you are complaining about is not the central point of any Buddhisim or Buddhist teaching

It may be disrepectful, but it is not really the point.

Again, with all due respect, a person should first censure themselves, not others.

Therefore, it is better to practice right thought and right action in your own life first.

Learn to cultivate your own garden, let your own flowers grow, and leave the rest to the others.

Again, I don't mean to be critical...but you can't control the world and it's actions. But you can control yours.

I would say for any Buddhist the first 3 rules are: Compassion for others, Understanding of others, and tolerance for all.

Practice that first, and let the rest take care of itself.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Yes very fair points... being an extrovert I tend to talk my thinking - so I can talk something through whilst thinking it through and that can be mis-interpreted

that would be why u are typing on a keyboard with a time span of thought before pressing the send button... u have the time to re read what u wrote, whereas when u are vocalizing your thoughts, youi cant catch the words and re bottle them. rather like the genie that gives u the wishes that start with 'i wish' and u say 'i wish i could sit down for a moment to think about my wishes', and voila- u get your wish...

not on topic but never mind....

rather funny,

bina

israel

...........

Bina, I didn't say I didn't stand by my words just that (as it's a discussion board) I discuss and being an extrovert I tend to think out loud - all of my points have been thought out over 35 years of studying various philosophies etc. but it seems I may have offended some 'sensitive Buddhists' on here and for that I apologise - the content and reality of what I have put forward I do not apologise for but... yes... I get your point... I will try and be a good boy

[ChiangMaiFun]

With all due respect I must say that what you are complaining about is not the central point of any Buddhisim or Buddhist teaching

It may be disrepectful, but it is not really the point.

Again, with all due respect, a person should first censure themselves, not others.

Therefore, it is better to practice right thought and right action in your own life first.

Learn to cultivate your own garden, let your own flowers grow, and leave the rest to the others.

Again, I don't mean to be critical...but you can't control the world and it's actions. But you can control yours.

I would say for any Buddhist the first 3 rules are: Compassion for others, Understanding of others, and tolerance for all.

Practice that first, and let the rest take care of itself.

Yes you are right of course... but as we are here... I discussed it in context on Wats not Churches but same applies - generally, though, I do find more of it here - I was simply refelcting (as many, many Thais do) on the state of Buddhism in the Kingdom these days - reflected,to an extent, in behaviour (culture is, after all, made up of accepted norms). But I take your point and thank you for your reasoned contribution which has a lot of truth within it -

I, for one, can be honest and say it does bother me more than it should when I feel great affection and respect for what a temple stands for and the greatest respect for what the Buddha images reflect and I see and hear a ladyboy sitting in the middle of the floor on the mobile chatting loudly - as happened to me at Wat Suan Dok recently... but I shall reflect upon what you say.

[Samuian]

Another interesting thread today!

A couple of stray thoughts.

In talking with a monk one day when I was still just a visitor to Thailand (as opposed to living here, as I do now), I was lamenting about how difficult it was to visit a Buddhist temple where I lived in America. He replied: "Everything you see here -- the temple and even the Buddha statue -- have really nothing to do with Buddhism. Real Buddhism is in your head."

Someone pointed out that a monk who is interrupted in his meditations by lay people chatting at the temple simply isn't focused enough in his meditations. This happened to me once. I was at Wat Dhebsirin (Thepsirin), and I got there in the early evening when the monks were in the ubosot doing their meditations. I quietly went in, sat and just enjoyed experiencing the situation. Finally, since I had never before found the ubosot open, I decided to take a photo. No flash. The click of the shutter made one of the monks turn around. I was very embarrassed. Later, I got to thinking that if the mere click of a shutter (or the sound of a bird, or whatever other sound) broke the monk's concentration, then he really wasn't focused on meditation, he was just going through the motions.

And finally (at least for now), Buddhist temples in Thailand have a role as community centers. A couple of times in this forum I have lamented how many Buddhist temples are essentially closed up -- wiharns, ubosots...doors locked. Who are those buildings...who is that wat for? To me, overall it's for the community. The monks could simply go out in the forest and meditate; many do. As a center for the community, it's where life goes on. And life includes noise and little disturbances. Which is better...an quiet and empty temple or a slightly noisy temple where people congregate?

Excerpt:

"- wiharns, ubosots...doors locked. Who are those buildings...who is that wat for? "

Spot on, you got a very valued point!

The world is the temple, the sky it's ceiling!

I apologize up front, people who are easily upset, because of their belief and religious feelings, stop right here - this is not meant to offend anyone, from ANY walk of life, but the posters very personal views expressed!

Temples, Churches and other institutions/buildings for that purpose are like golden cages where the

fulfiller of our hopes, the protector of our luck, the bestower of our wealth, health and happiness resides and the place where we keep this "precious gem" locked up!

Locked up? May some ill intended being steal it, destroy it, defile or dishonor it?

Is this possible?

Conditioning is the way human thinking and the resulting deeds are programmed!

The human mind is the creator of all this (BS) and yes it is a common misconception that only in these places

proper contact, worship can be conducted!

???????????????????

"if you want to see me, lift a piece off wood, turn a rock..."

What a limited, but then supposedly eternal, unlimited, omniscient, all pervading - spirit... dhamma, god, name it with it's uncountable names, labels, credits, conceptions.... how limited "un-limited" can that be - THINK!

All this service, Temples, Churches, Synagogues, Mosques.... serve supposedly only one purpose, to worship, but what are they in the "real world" about?

DIVISION - because many, many fall into the trap that there is.... one for every belief and on top that only "ME" is right, only "me" - whilst defending, worshiping a "lord", a "god" here a gigantic nightmare unfolds... HUMAN Nature, trapped in conditioning, "Me" thinking, doing, reacting according to emotions, feelings, hang up... doesn't matter what brand Name - the core is what matters, the search for understanding - for ENLIGHTENMENT - the Buddha, did he find his enlightenment in the confines of a temple or under a tree!

Enlightenment doesn't come yet in a "light" version!

.... one has to work, work, work and give up, let lose, let go of "Me, "myself" "I", "Mine", yeah even of "Enlightenment" the wish thereof...!

breathe, breathe, breathe - thinking, guessing, idle talk andevene the greatest, smartest concepts, wont get anyone near or close in a 10.000 years it's only fodder for the ego, for the concept of "me" - "I the donor", "I the doer", "I, the one who makes Tamboon", "have this, that and this"!

But Vipassana, watching the breath, being focused in awareness - get's one there within the glimpse of an eye....

All these structures, yes even all the scriptures, they are all men made and last not least at best crutches, aides, guides at best, each and every one will have to go and walk the path for him/herself "all nine yards" no way aroun, no short cut., nor VIP Diamond Card, membership either!

have a beautiful day, everyday - everyone!

Edited January 2, 2010 by Samuian

[mca]

An instance I encountered was at the funeral of my sister in laws husband when the Abbot was chanting and 2 monks further down the line were having a right old giggle together.

Considering the supposed solemnity of the occasion and taking into account the feelings of my family at their loss and the respect they were showing the temple and it's members my sincere apologies but that's just dam_n f#cking rude.

[bangon04]

So the message I am reading from the replies to the topic - meditating for Buddhists is not an act of collective worship (as some western religions) but very much a act of individual meditation . So it matters not one iota what other people are doing around you. What is inside you, emotionally and intellectually, is the only thing that matters. I can see why a Buddhist should not care about other peolple's actions.

But then why go to a Wat at all, to publicly display merit-making?

[ChiangMaiFun]

So the message I am reading from the replies to the topic - meditating for Buddhists is not an act of collective worship (as some western religions) but very much a act of individual meditation . So it matters not one iota what other people are doing around you. What is inside you, emotionally and intellectually, is the only thing that matters. I can see why a Buddhist should not care about other peolple's actions.

But then why go to a Wat at all, to publicly display merit-making?

Well... that's a very interesting point you make - but it isn't always individual (many ceremonies are collective - i.e. funerals etc.) - for me the Wat is a place - a sanctuary - where I want to 'step outside' of the World for a time... of course it isn't necessary and I understand all the 'it's within you points'

but... there are times when quite meditation is conducive to inner reflection - it's more, for me, actually less 'about me' and more about lack of respect for what the Wat/Temple is for... the Buddha image represents etc.

I mean if a high ranking official was present for a ceromony would they still behave like that? chatting on mobiles? no way - yousee it on TV all the time - very respectful - so it comes down to just general lack of 'grenge jai' and not really understanding 'why' they are there - probably because they have done it since childhood - in fact I have met very, very few Thais who know anything about Buddhism and that may be the crux of it...

[camerata]

So the message I am reading from the replies to the topic - meditating for Buddhists is not an act of collective worship (as some western religions) but very much a act of individual meditation .

Right. It is definitely not an act of worship. It's mental cultivation. You can do it at home alone or you can do it with others on a retreat. Monks do it alone in their hut or together somewhere that is not open to the public at that time.

So it matters not one iota what other people are doing around you. What is inside you, emotionally and intellectually, is the only thing that matters. I can see why a Buddhist should not care about other peolple's actions.

But then why go to a Wat at all, to publicly display merit-making?

Going to the main hall of a temple is primarily a matter of you paying respect to the Buddha as symbolized by the Buddha image. Big and/or old images tend to be inspiring (and calming), so people seek them out. But this is essentially an individual act, so it doesn't matter what other people are doing at the time. The last time I went to make merit (different from making an offering) at a temple in Bangkok, we did it outside in the courtyard, with people walking all around us. The chanting involved tends to focus the mind and you don't notice what others are doing. I tried meditating in the ubosot, but it was too busy so it was more of a token effort for 5 minutes (but 5 minutes is better than nothing!) than serious meditation.

[Samuian]

An instance I encountered was at the funeral of my sister in laws husband when the Abbot was chanting and 2 monks further down the line were having a right old giggle together.

Considering the supposed solemnity of the occasion and taking into account the feelings of my family at their loss and the respect they were showing the temple and it's members my sincere apologies but that's just dam_n f#cking rude.

using this kind of language:

"my sincere apologies but that's just dam_n f#cking rude.

is what exactly - expressing respect towards others - you are holding a grudge and aversions against

something you don't know why, what, who.... you are just a witness entangled in several situations as they usually happen simultaneously...keep it cool, clam and collected and you'l be a winner, otherwise queue up with all these losers!

let ém giggle, even laugh at you... who wins, who loses - one day we afre all dead!

That's for granted!

So tiill then oit would be wise to be happy evrý f_ckin, bl_dy, da_n minute, no matter what - NO?

[473geo]

Could the view that the funeral is a celebration of life and a 'send off' into the next life, be responsible for the relaxed atmosphere at times.........the Irish wake being an example which aroused strong disdain from regular temperate religious factions for the fact it was seen by them as disrespectful to be drinking and effectively having a party!!

The wat I visit is very relaxed and there appears to be a more social side to the gatherings. The members of the village bring food and everybody partakes.....if children are running around and making a noise, there are smiles, not frowns, I find my visits quite refreshing. Although my young son is encouraged to sit still at times, if he does not, it would appear there is no concept of him 'misbehaving'.

[fiercesnake]

No you are right. I recently saw a documentary which included this very topic and senior (real) long serving Buddhist monks said that there was a definite trend of change in Thai society especially noticeable amongst the rich and better educated young Thais. Most Thais will continue to go to the temple on "auspicious" (love that term auspicious they use a lot here) occasions but really it is just lip service for tradition to make them feel Thai. They don't really believe it or actually follow the precepts.

In other words it has become more of a cultural fun activity rather than a serious philosophy for life. Everybody does it so everybody else just follows along but very few really have a deep understanding (or even respect in some ways) for what is being taught. Interesting to note that the many older senior monks that discussed this on (I think was NGC-National Geographic Channel) thought that it was not a good trend and could only harm Thailand in the long run with materialism taking over from Buddhism!!!

[rgs2001uk]

So the message I am reading from the replies to the topic - meditating for Buddhists is not an act of collective worship (as some western religions) but very much a act of individual meditation . So it matters not one iota what other people are doing around you. What is inside you, emotionally and intellectually, is the only thing that matters. I can see why a Buddhist should not care about other peolple's actions.

But then why go to a Wat at all, to publicly display merit-making?

How observant, no face to be gained from meditation or morality?

[473geo]

So the message I am reading from the replies to the topic - meditating for Buddhists is not an act of collective worship (as some western religions) but very much a act of individual meditation . So it matters not one iota what other people are doing around you. What is inside you, emotionally and intellectually, is the only thing that matters. I can see why a Buddhist should not care about other peolple's actions.

But then why go to a Wat at all, to publicly display merit-making?

How observant, no face to be gained from meditation or morality?

Perhaps the merit making is to attract the attention of the spirits to the action?

[camerata]

How observant, no face to be gained from meditation or morality?

There is much more than face to be gained by morality. It's called baramee. Famous examples would be Chamlong Srimuang prior to 1991 (ascetic Buddhist, clean Bangkok governor), Prem Tinsulanonda (clean PM) and Chuan Leekpai (clean PM).

[bina]

my husband says 'mai son jai' (i dont pay attention) i.e. he doesnt give two hoots what others are doing or saying, he does what he feels must be done. this is in real life, at the wat, at home and at work also. when ive pointed out that others are doing such and such, he basically sees that as a type of gossip. so the talking on cell phones and talking with each other and other behaviors should be 'not paid attention to'. thats all.

ive rarely found thais acting impolitely in terms of what they would consider impoliteness. and i was at a funeral for some very old very important member of a large community in ban chiang and people talked and gossiped all thru the sermon. those that wanted to pay attention, did so. i spent a lot of time sort of craning my neck at the noise makers and hissing like a goose , sort of tsk tsking. later i was told i was being rude. that i shouldnt have paid attention to the noisey folks , if they bothered me, i should just have moved closer up front or to an other area. the interenst and annoyance i was showing was considered rather impolite.

and i think that when thais go to a wat for contemplation, they are going not for getting 'the religious feeling' but for changing place to help put them in the proper frame of mind. thats all. and many thais go for the social aspect of going all together to do something cultural. maybe because synagogues are not really holy places i dont have this feeling that i have to enter and immediately start whispering. synogogues were originally like wats. they were for worship, prayer, contemplation, and study, including teaching children, AND also a community center back before YMCA'S came about. therefore the attitude is a bit different then when entering, say, a church, which is totally a holy place (at least my non christian understanding of that) whre people only go for sermons and the religious experience.

i dont think that meditation is seen as something like a holy practice either. its more seen like an exercise. u arent trying to commune with god, but rather trying to sort of train your mind. which really doesnt need a holy place that is dead quiet .

i think there are many differences in our perception of actions for life cycle actions like marriage for instance. exchanging some kind of vow in front of a clerical person-rabbi/priest is seen as religious and holy, whereas teh marriage ceremony among thais is purely a community ceremony. there is nothing really holy /sacred/vows involved. there we see our actions as appropriate since we were mostly raised as seeing places/building/ceremonies as holy, and not as just community oriented actions (even tamboon /merit ceremonies are community rites since they can be done with or without various props:flowers, candles, white threads, incense, monks etc-- ive seen the thai guys here improvising all these things when they have celebrations here- no flowers- use leaves. no incense, no problem. no white string blessed by monks, there's white string from a hard ware store. the ceremony is just as real. and people babbler, jabber, sms, snore and drink during these ceremonies also ).

a bit off topic, but interesting i think

bina

israel