All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government

[brahmburgers]

You do not think taking a government institution and crippling the tourist trade and inconveniencing 10,000s of tourists a form of violence? Breaking the law etc.?

The airport scenario was in line with peaceful civil demonstrations do. Sure it was grossly inconvenient for others, but it wouldn't gain notice if it wasn't inconvenient. I'm not making excuses for the airport take-over, but I wouldn't call it a form of violence. Some people call an appendectomy a form of violence, so I guess it comes down to semantics. If the folks who took over the airport did it for reasons you might feel strongly about (against violence against women, or keeping girls from going to school) would you still call the take-over violent?

Im on no bodies side except a peaceful and prosperous Thailand......

Maybe one way to bring the sides together is for the Govt to suspend Thaksin's prison sentence and invite him to be an advisor to the Govt as Cambodia etc has done.

With a normal statesman, that might work. With T. it won't, because he's a proven megalomaniac. He wants total control of everything he's involved with.

Incidentally, all the assertions of voting trends assumes that the Issanaites will continue to vote in a block for one of the incarnations of TRT. Any student of voting trends (anywhere) will tell you that groups of people don't always vote in a block. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Even with pay-for-votes being endemic in Thai election campaigns (along with no meaningful debates, ugh), it's entirely possible that Issan and other regions will vote according to peoples' individual preferences.

[rixalex]

We don't know - this is a fair point - just like you don't know innocent people were killed - another fair point... let's move on

I do know they were innocent because innocent is what every one of us is until a court of law proves otherwise.

[ChiangMaiFun]

We don't know - this is a fair point - just like you don't know innocent people were killed - another fair point... let's move on

I do know they were innocent because innocent is what every one of us is until a court of law proves otherwise.

and what about the innocents who die everyday of the drugs provided by the scum? you do not seem very concerned about them - and you think the court system here is not without it's err, how can I put it, challenges? you seem to live in an idealised 'western' mind-set - go live in PC friendly farangland not here... this is not a New York courtroom - sometimes the scum may have died before they got your 'justice'... oh dear... what a shame

[Johpa]

While we have no business or really any hope of changing the more unpleasant aspects of Thai values, that again does not mean we have to share them.

It is not an "unpleasant" value to not want to have methamphetamine sold openly to pre-teens. The police were not able to control the yaa baa epidemic at the local level and something had to be done. If the scourge had been pervasive in the muubaanjatsan housing developments or the condos favored by the expat communities, if those communities were the objects of daily thefts and violence, if the 12 year olds in the private international schools were openly offered drugs on a daily basis, then your self-righteous tune might change. There is nothing unpleasant about wanting to live in a safe community and not have drugs pervasively sold to your 12 year old at school. Of course we can always nitpick and find values of others we find offensive, but the average rural Thai's response to the war on the drug dealers, and most of the victims were indeed drug dealers, is understandable if you lived within the affected communities as I did.

[webfact]

"Replying to All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government"

this topic is not about drugs or the war on drugs.

Back on track please or off-topic posts will be deleted

thx

[wayfarer108]

I think they want their rightful share of hope and opportunity. Put simple this is a fight between the 'haves and have nots'

I don't see anyone in the Red leadership who is a 'have not'. In reality, this is an exploitation of the have-nots to serve the Red elite. No better than the elites behind the Yellows. The Reds lean on buying votes, candidates and parties, plus violence in the streets, all to serve the (formerly) richest man in Thailand.

[brahmburgers]

I think they want their rightful share of hope and opportunity. Put simple this is a fight between the 'haves and have nots'

I don't see anyone in the Red leadership who is a 'have not'. In reality, this is an exploitation of the have-nots to serve the Red elite. No better than the elites behind the Yellows. The Reds lean on buying votes, candidates and parties, plus violence in the streets, all to serve the (formerly) richest man in Thailand.

Good point, wayfarer, and one that's been missed by many Thais. All the noise about supporting the downtrodden (Issan folks and others) is focused on reinstating a rich man and his family to power. A man who flagrantly cheated the country by withholding taxes. A man who cares mainly about becoming exceedingly rich and powerful by any means. A man who prances around the world offering to invest in all sorts of odd projects overseas - how do such activities aid the impoverished farmers in Issan?

From years of observing the maneuverings within Thailand, the main reason I can deduce, for the thinning ranks of the Pro-Thaksin movement to continue to support Thaksin is as follows:

They want more money (not a bad thing in itself, and common to nearly everyone). They see a man who is very rich, who purports to have their interests in mind. They don't mind how he got rich or whether he's broken a slew of laws. They figure, if the man is very rich, then he can certainly find ways help them (the Reds) get more money. In the meantime, that man is paying them to attend protests.

You can call it a simplistic view, but in a nutshell, that's how I see it.

Edited January 3, 2010 by brahmburgers

[tomahawk]

it is not complicated why so many Thai people support Thaksin. All you have to do is talk to them. They say it is because they can afford health care because of Thaksin, as well as cheap loans. They have access to internet and cell phones because of Thaksin. Crime and drugs were down because of Thaksin. If someone does something which benefits you, then it is natural for you to support them. One does not have to be a brilliant political analyst to see this. It would appear to me some farang political experts on forum only talk to the other farang political experts.

[LaoPo]

it is not complicated why so many Thai people support Thaksin. All you have to do is talk to them. They say it is because they can afford health care because of Thaksin, as well as cheap loans. They have access to internet and cell phones because of Thaksin. Crime and drugs were down because of Thaksin. If someone does something which benefits you, then it is natural for you to support them. One does not have to be a brilliant political analyst to see this. It would appear to me some farang political experts on forum only talk to the other farang political experts.

..prepare.....prepare for many Tomahawks coming your way now

Install your shields.

LaoPo

[ChiangMaiFun]

it is not complicated why so many Thai people support Thaksin. All you have to do is talk to them. They say it is because they can afford health care because of Thaksin, as well as cheap loans. They have access to internet and cell phones because of Thaksin. Crime and drugs were down because of Thaksin. If someone does something which benefits you, then it is natural for you to support them. One does not have to be a brilliant political analyst to see this. It would appear to me some farang political experts on forum only talk to the other farang political experts.

You have hit the nail on the proverbial head - all of us here are comparatively 'rich' (at least materially) forget, for a moment, that he may have had his personal issues and was not an apsara (find me one in politics!). Generally ordinary Thais like him exactly for the reasons you outline - basic reasonshowit - they are not into sophisticated arguements nor understand the minuate - but they understand how it helped them at grassroots - and many feel 'cheated' because he was overthrown and the current government (good or bad) were not elected (as they perceive it).

[Thai at Heart]

it is not complicated why so many Thai people support Thaksin. All you have to do is talk to them. They say it is because they can afford health care because of Thaksin, as well as cheap loans. They have access to internet and cell phones because of Thaksin. Crime and drugs were down because of Thaksin. If someone does something which benefits you, then it is natural for you to support them. One does not have to be a brilliant political analyst to see this. It would appear to me some farang political experts on forum only talk to the other farang political experts.

You have hit the nail on the proverbial head - all of us here are comparatively 'rich' (at least materially) forget, for a moment, that he may have had his personal issues and was not an apsara (find me one in politics!). Generally ordinary Thais like him exactly for the reasons you outline - basic reasonshowit - they are not into sophisticated arguements nor understand the minuate - but they understand how it helped them at grassroots - and many feel 'cheated' because he was overthrown and the current government (good or bad) were not elected (as they perceive it).

At the end of the day, people vote this way the world over in some of the supposedly most sophisticated democracies in the world. People's own needs and happiness outweigh the supposedly greater good. it isn't as though there are too many politicians who win by telling people that taxes will have to go up.

I don't know why people are so surprised about why Thaksin was and still is so popular in the rural areas. It isn't as though anyone else cared that much about them politically, and would I care if someone told me that voting for Thaksin whilst apparently good for me (on the basis that most other parties have barely even acknowledged my existence it isn't much of a contest) but bad for the country as a whole?

The rural poor don't have time for the semantics of politics as we do in the west, but this doesn't make their vote or needs any less important than a millionaire on Sukhumvit. Living hand to mouth tends to make the decision of who to vote for pretty simple. This isn't to say that Thaksin is some saviour of the poor, it is just that his record of delivering something for them is far superior to the current and just about any other party in modern Thai political history.

[bushwacker]

I always said I would never accuse anyone of this, but I think the guy who says Bangkok is only place that counts must be some kind of "troll.

I cannot believe someone would seriously say something like this, even if they believed it, which obviously many people do and is a large part of what is causing all this trouble in the first place. For my part, I wish no harm to come to Bangkok or its people. However I personally try to avoid the place as much as possible. It is dirty and smells terrible. Traffic is horrible. In many ways it is not even like really living in Thailand.

My thoughts exactly .... well said! Living in Bangkok is living in Thailand in name only.

[webfact]

A post (and replies to it) deleted

Labeling a person or a group for any reason as buffaloes is an insult. Please refer to the Pet forum when commenting on buffaloes.

[TAWP]

I am not saying I do not believe there should be trials for suspected criminals. I am saying that I have a greater sympathy for Hmong than for drug dealers. Actually, every single Thai person I have talked to about this drug war thinks it was a good thing, and the streets were safer then. I am not saying every person inTthailand feels this way, but I believe the majority do.

You would be surprised how many Thais that support the deportation of Hmongs etc.

In your world that makes it alright then. So what are you complaining about?

[Jingthing]

Its obvious the vast majority of Thais support the deportations. Otherwise, where is the protest from Thais? None really visible.

[Crushdepth]

I thought the final push to overthrow the government happened in December? And in November we had the final overthrow attempt? And in October weren't we going to camp in the park and not go home until the government had been overthrown in the last-ditch overthrow? Going back to April we got drunk and *then* tried the totalitarian overthrow but unfortunately we got chased off by angry motorists and annoyed residents dropping things on our heads from neighbouring hirises...

Can I have a free t-shirt if I turn up to the rally? Do I get to keep it when I sneak off home early?

[Credo]

Probably not a good idea to show up at the rallies. I believe that the government made it clear that foreigners were not permitted to go and could be arrested.

So sorry, but no free t-shirt for you!

[xminator]

"Replying to All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government"

this topic is not about drugs or the war on drugs.

Back on track please or off-topic posts will be deleted

thx

Got as far as "Suthep says" and stopped reading.

[baht&sold]

Lost in all the semantics (desireably by some) is the FACT yet ANOTHER retired Army General is about to join Puea Thai,

with General Panlop planning to lead red-shirts in 'all-out' rally to topple the Thai govt.

Mr Thaksin is dusting off a legion of old 'opportunist' generals...

Why? To some it's obvious, the rest will soon see as well - before Mr Thaksin's 76 bln final court date mid-feb.

(and all this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'democracy' or 'helping the poor', PERIOD)

Happy 'NEW' year all (dejavu-year)

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Im on no bodies side except a peaceful and prosperous Thailand......

Maybe one way to bring the sides together is for the Govt to suspend Thaksin's prison sentence and invite him to be an advisor to the Govt as Cambodia etc has done.

That way the Govt makes peace with the reds, keeps Thaksin in check and under control. Can set certain parameters that he needs abide by to stay out of Jail. He is in the country so if he puts a foot wrong they can grab him easily.

After all the charges were retrospectively "trumped up" to get him out anyway. A little backtracking and all the problem is solved.

Now wait for the flamers to arrive......

Have another drink

[baht&sold]

Lost in all the semantics (desireably by some) is the FACT yet ANOTHER retired Army General is about to join Puea Thai,

with General Panlop planning to lead red-shirts in 'all-out' rally to topple the Thai govt.

Mr Thaksin is dusting off a legion of old 'opportunist' generals...

Why? To some it's obvious, the rest will soon see as well - before Mr Thaksin's 76 bln final court date mid-feb.

(and all this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'democracy' or 'helping the poor', PERIOD)

Happy 'NEW' year all (dejavu-year)

Should have added Puea Thai MP General Panlop's quote from Jan 1, 2010:

'Violence inevitable if no amnesty'

"For our part, the only way out is to grant amnesty to Thaksin.

If this is not met by the other party, it [conflict] is not likely to end.

And if it doesn't end, I'm afraid things will inevitably turn violent

when [red shirts] assemble around February," Panlop said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/01/01...cs_30119564.php

PS, final quote from General Panlop:

Asked if he or the red-shirt leaders could contain rangers planning to join red-shirt protests,

Pallop said he and his peers would "try" to do so....

tic-toc...

Edited January 4, 2010 by baht&sold

[Ricardo]

Lost in all the semantics (desireably by some) is the FACT yet ANOTHER retired Army General is about to join Puea Thai,

with General Panlop planning to lead red-shirts in 'all-out' rally to topple the Thai govt.

Mr Thaksin is dusting off a legion of old 'opportunist' generals...

Why? To some it's obvious, the rest will soon see as well - before Mr Thaksin's 76 bln final court date mid-feb.

(and all this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'democracy' or 'helping the poor', PERIOD)

Happy 'NEW' year all (dejavu-year)

Am I the only one who finds it amusing, that the red-shirts are condemning (amongst others) the military-elite for being undemocratic & corrupt, while at the same time their political-wing (the PTP) is busy signing-up as many as possible ?

[RustyYellowDodge]

"Replying to All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government"

this topic is not about drugs or the war on drugs.

Back on track please or off-topic posts will be deleted

thx

Got as far as "Suthep says" and stopped reading.

I'm with you!

[Scott]

Apparently some posters didn't quite understand the statement by one of the Admin: this topic is not about drugs or the war on drugs. 1 post has been deleted.

Please stay on topic. I hate giving warnings this early in the year.

[animatic]

Its obvious the vast majority of Thais support the deportations. Otherwise, where is the protest from Thais? None really visible.

It is a hold over symptom of the ultra-nationalist, 'us against all others',

especially neighbors and those who don't conform to 'Thai cultiuralways 100%',

that is inbred into them in the school system and thus long force fed to the Tha culture.

It was a logical idea back when they tried to creatw a Thai Land from a 'cross-roads of cultures',

but now it is just a racisist anti-minority anachronism and group mental illness that is so endemic

they don't even REALIZE it is a problem.

Sadly the whole culture has been raised for generations believing this bile,

till it has completely forgotten this is a bad thing.

It's not just the Hmong but ANY non-"THAI" that is suspect from

Aka through English, past French and Spanish on to Zanzibarians et al.

Sure it built a nation, but it also built in a repugnant racism into that nation.

Most pathetically, it's a racism directed at their closest cousins, no less.

[virtualtraveller]

I wish it was that simple that they could just seize all his assets and that would be the final nail in the coffin, but it won't be. For Thaksin it's all about the money, and if he has his life savings (or the largest chunk) taken away he will fight to the death to get it back, and seems the sort of guy willing to drag this country through the mud to get it. Besides which there are thousands, nay millions, out there who depend on this money for handouts and gravy trains, so they will also be peeved off.

Given what he can buy if he gets it back, I doubt they would rule in his favour, even if it was marginal, and there certainly is a justifiable case that some of it was ill gotten. Up until now the money has not been available to him, so it's not like they will be turning off the money supply, and he admits to still having about 100 million at his disposal. Since timing and publicity are everything to him, he'll use the verdict as a catalyst for all out push to turf this govt out, on the basis that there is no justice in this country because the powers that be can take away all your wealth even if you earned much of it before the so called 'wrong doing'.

There's more to this than that however, I believe he will eventually succeed in overturning the ruling and getting most of it back, it's not about the money ill-gotten, it's about applying the pressure to weaken him. This has happened before in a coup, where they seized the assets but a court eventually ruled that they should be returned (can't remember exactly which coup and which ex-supremo it was).

The courts would be wise to rule that some of the assets should be permanently seized and the rest fairly returned, and then take a couple of years to determine exactly how much he should get back, this would force him to co-operate or risk having it tied up for years and years. Ultimately I fear 2010 is going to be very eventful, the way things are going the poor Democrats are going to be struggling to hold together an increasingly greedy and unreasonable coalition, they probably won't make it to the Army reshuffle in Sept which means one less obstacle for Thaksin to make a comeback. They're going to be less polite and patient about it this time, and ultimately they are going to invite massive civil disobedience.

I'm predicting another coup, possible an 'own goal' coup engineered by a Puea Thai govt as an excuse to tear up the 2008 charter, and I don't think it's going to accepted by the public nor certain factions of the army. Whatever the outcome it does mean instant freedom for Thaksin and is money, then he exits the stage and leaves the politicians to fight over the mess it leaves behind - he'll blame it all on the 'Mandarins'. Sorry to say, but I fear the worst for this country, only when there's been a massive fatal event will everyone step back and decide to be peaceful (with full forgiveness from both sides of course).

[tomahawk]

It is not obvious that most Thais support deportation of Hmongs. It is an old trick to say something is obvious in a feeble attempt to get others to agree with the point as not to appear too stupid to see the "obvious". This is also obvious. Fact is the Thai people I know for the most part do not support deportation of Hmongs, and the ones that did did so because they were not informed about what would happen to Hmongs after they got deported. Once they learned this, they changed their minds. Thai people for thr most part, at least ones I know, are not in favor of murder of women and children, once they are aware of it.

[tb86]

really enough already, another final rally to bring down the government, hmmm well we've heard that a few times before, maybe this time they will have 10 million in attendance, boooorrriiiiingg

[animatic]

It is not obvious that most Thais support deportation of Hmongs. It is an old trick to say something is obvious in a feeble attempt to get others to agree with the point as not to appear too stupid to see the "obvious". This is also obvious. Fact is the Thai people I know for the most part do not support deportation of Hmongs, and the ones that did did so because they were not informed about what would happen to Hmongs after they got deported. Once they learned this, they changed their minds. Thai people for thr most part, at least ones I know, are not in favor of murder of women and children, once they are aware of it.

Quite true not all support deportation.

But the real question is ;

How many have been schooled to NOT CARE?

Of course most people in any country don't support killing women and children.

But seems there was a bit of a gray area a few years back

if they father was a Yaba dealer and

the mother and kids were in the way....

[caf]

Its obvious the vast majority of Thais support the deportations. Otherwise, where is the protest from Thais? None really visible.

It is a hold over symptom of the ultra-nationalist, 'us against all others',

especially neighbors and those who don't conform to 'Thai cultiuralways 100%',

that is inbred into them in the school system and thus long force fed to the Tha culture.

It was a logical idea back when they tried to creatw a Thai Land from a 'cross-roads of cultures',

but now it is just a racisist anti-minority anachronism and group mental illness that is so endemic

they don't even REALIZE it is a problem.

Sadly the whole culture has been raised for generations believing this bile,

till it has completely forgotten this is a bad thing.

It's not just the Hmong but ANY non-"THAI" that is suspect from

Aka through English, past French and Spanish on to Zanzibarians et al.

Sure it built a nation, but it also built in a repugnant racism into that nation.

Most pathetically, it's a racism directed at their closest cousins, no less.

Can't really understand this reply; but I see no source for saying that the Thais support Hmong deportation. Posting a comment does not make it factual. Seems to be an increasingly dishonest tactic on tv.