New Honda Pcxi 125cc I,

[CMX]

I am in the market for a bike and rented a PCX for a day for a test drive. A day’s test is not the same as a week or a month, let alone living with a vehicle, but first impressions count too. Mine were good, though my main use will be in city driving. I thought to put experience qualifications, but assume readers will draw their own conclusions.

I found immediately a sense of heft when centering the bike – the weight, particularly to those of us who’ve generally ridden 100 Kilo machines lately, is obvious. The mirrors caught my attention next, as I adjusted them prior to the startup. They are of a squashed diamond design, and the outer portion is extended. How oriental, I thought. In practice, they do for me (wider shoulders) what most little bikes don’t – deliver a view to the rear out on the highways and let me know who’s just behind and coming alongside – with the same setting.

In spite of my having read about it, I was startled at first when the bike shut itself off at a stop. Here in Chiang Mai, we have some ring road stops that report how long you must wait (long time), and I thought about that battery and the absence of a kick-starter. However, I was about to get out of town and run the battery happy. Depending on experience, I might opt to turn off the device in town, as it won’t push start either.

Hereabouts, outer ring roads are fairly quiet and you can experiment some. I found the PCX happier at higher speeds than all the “little” bikes (not driven the Elegance yet), but by higher I am not suggesting a rivalry with a CBR, Boxer, or larger. Because of the nature of the automatic transmission, I never got a sense of rpm’s as I do on a wave in 4th; the bike stayed unannounced (by rpm) as the wind built in my helmet. A number of posters have suggested that a bigger engine would fill out the bike’s potential, and it is my view that the PCX will easily support anything from 150-250 turbo

We enjoy here testing bikes just out of town by going up the mountain to Doi Suthep, which involves a very curvy road with a climb of 1000 meters, I think. I’d gone up several times with a geared Wave 125 and wanted to compare. No contest. With the Wave, I had to keep speed up or fool with third or (if silly enough to get behind the power curve, caught behind a songthaew) second gear. With the PCX, this was not even a consideration, and the bike fetched me any speed I liked (I only tried once 80, as the tires are not so trustworthy - to me - as a familiar bigger bike). I was peeking at town through trees when a songthaew tried to pass, and so I put him in the mirror as a spot as fast as a CBR would have done to me. This is a 125, fuel injection and “new” engineering notwithstanding. Quick for a 125, but not magical.

Going down hill was educational too. It has been asserted elsewhere that autoxmissions are not good for descent. This auto does not go into neutral when descending; it exerts a drag that held me mostly to 40 or 50kph during a fairly steep descent. I was required to brake only on tight or long curves. The double combi-brakes on this bike, incidentally, seemed with the left hand to have a greater pull on the front than the rear, while the right side seemed more balanced. Unique to the model or bike itself? Pulling with some strength on both results in amazing grabbing power – they could be overbuilt. I was startled to feel that sense we get when heading forward while the bike wants to stay behind.

Like other reporters, I’m not certain about how I would like that driver’s seatback over time. But it’s a personal decision anyway, although a passenger tried it and admired the arrangement from back there; it’s relatively long, of course. Stopped, I liked the seat height for my 177cm, as I could nicely lower both feet to the ground. Folks much shorter will like to lean the bike toward their favorite leg.

I liked the dials, mostly. Speed is an easily read on a big analogue dial, and turn signal indicators really remind a forgetful rider (ahem), big green arrows. There’s a temp gauge for the water temp. But the odometer is digital, as they are these days, black on gray in daylight. All are marvelous to read at night – classy-auto modern.

Controls were standard, mostly, except that the turn signal is bottom left and the horn button is in the middle and toggles on the far side, away from the thumb. There is to be learned the starting/locking/seating/gas tank/key controls, five minutes.

The ride itself on this new bike with its larger tyres and different springing is not luxurious. It is what it is, and a bumpy road tells. (I did not check the tyre pressure – but then would a rental outfit forget?)

While I found it wonderfully balanced for the highway, I thought that the PCX is not as handy in heavy traffic as Suzuki’s fuel-injected Skyblade, for example, which features a short-coupled 14” wheel. Moreover, the width of the mirrors on the PCX, like its weight, are inhibiting at first and present a measurable complication: Its mirrors measure 188 cm wide, while the Elegance is but 174 cm. (Call it a bit more than 5 inches, Yanks.) On the other hand, I found in town that the automatic transmission was perfect for all situations requiring acceleration, if one twists authoritatively. Braking, as in the hills, worked well indeed.

Underseat storage, of course, is satisfactory plus, and I suppose from my the petrol (“red” 91 at their request, new bike) I added and the descent of the (digital dot) fuel gauge that the efficiency will clearly exceed 40km/l and challenge in some use challenge 50. Looking forward to authoritative reports.

My judgment for me is that it would be somewhat limiting for me in heavy city traffic, due not to its power train but its width and weight. It is in every way else a polished product and worthwhile. Were I interested in fuel efficiency and traveled usually away from traffic, it would be perfect for this aged biker. And that’s my caveat – a younger biker might make the thing safely fly even in the city.

[pgt99]

I bought one to mainly to my shopping and the like and am chuffed to fuc_k. PeaceBlondie I have a CBR150 too. The mirrors on the PCX are far superior. I am going to try and get a set and fit them to the CBR.

[juehoe]

Bought one a week ago - the PCX is fantastic

I am considering a scooter a long time ago but was satisfied with the current line-up. When I first heard from the PCX I was exited. The (first) posts in this forum and a test ride convinced me. The PCX is quite expensive for Thai standard and «we» (my girl friend) have invested some more money in fancy accessories...

The PCX is for me a 125 cc scooter like we have them in Europe - and not like the common mopeds. It is quite powerful and I like the very direct and responsive engine and transmission. It is very easy and quick to pass other vehicles. Friends of mine assumed first don't believe that the PCX has only a 125 cc engine!

The PCX is heavy but my girlfriend like it more than the Vino because the improved stability.

The luggage under the seat is OK. You cannot load the bike in the common Thai style, but I think the PCX is more bike for small shopping, recreation and pleasure and not a work horse... There is a strap where you can lock your helmet at the bike when the luggage is full.

[shelby]

...Going down hill was educational too. It has been asserted elsewhere that autoxmissions are not good for descent. This auto does not go into neutral when descending; it exerts a drag that held me mostly to 40 or 50kph during a fairly steep descent. I was required to brake only on tight or long curves...

This may be because the Honda PCX is increasing the drag on the engine by the stator in the alternator in order to maximize the charging of the batteries:

world.honda.com slash motorcycle-technology slash Engineidlingstop slash p4 dot html <--make that into a web address and load it in your browser, this site won't let me insert a link that you can click

...To reduce friction from power generation, and to ensure strong vehicle acceleration when equipped with the "idling stop system", the charging voltage is lowered to 12 volts from the normally regulated voltage of 14.5 volts for a prescribed period of time. In doing so, the battery is not charged during vehicle acceleration, and charged only during constant speed or deceleration. Charging during deceleration is especially effective because it means an efficient use of energy...

Someone commented that a CVT transmission is unable to return torque to the motor, but my understanding is that does not necessarily have to be the case. The CVT is a belt attaching to pulleys on two ends, and thus mechanically I can envision the belt can exert tension in either direction. Perhaps some CVTs do not down-shift the ratio between the pulleys fast enough to exert noticeable drag, and this may be to conserve the life of the CVT, belt and motor. But perhaps Honda has opted for a variable drag depending on the level of the battery, or maybe a consistent drag so the driver knows what to expect. You see there are many ways to design the programming of the CVT.

So the PCX may be much more sophisticated than people realize. It may be employing regenerative braking, a feature of very high end electrical cars, such as the Honda Insight. It can understand why someone referred to it as a "hybrid". It is. Apparently, it is using the motor to charge the batteries and then using the battery to conserve gas by running the motor (only at start time). AMAZING! The alternator as a start is only a limited duty electrical motor, so it is a very limited duty style hybrid, but quite effective apparently in the city (100+ MPG city even with hours of idlings that would lower the MPG of other motorbikes?).

This alternator might be one of the most compelling features of the PCX for me, because I think it would enable me to run some heavy power devices, such as a very loud sound system, or for cold climates heated gear. As far as I know, and in my experience, all the other sub-250cc class bikes will end up with a dead battery if you attach any significant electrical load, because their DC generators (not alternators) have no ability to generate much power at low RPMs. Understand that one big difference between an alternator and a generator, is to be able to control the current and power output, by adjusting the field voltage. I am not understanding how this design works, because as far as I can see it doesn't have a field coil?

world.honda.com slash motorcycle-technology slash Engineidlingstop slash p3 dot html

One question I have for PCX owners, do you see the lights get much brighter at higher RPMs compared to idle? That is a characteristic of the inferior generator type electric systems on these small underbone bikes, but it appears that maybe the PCX does not have that characteristic?

Edited February 7, 2010 by shelby

[katabeachbum]

...Going down hill was educational too. It has been asserted elsewhere that autoxmissions are not good for descent. This auto does not go into neutral when descending; it exerts a drag that held me mostly to 40 or 50kph during a fairly steep descent. I was required to brake only on tight or long curves...

This may be because the Honda PCX is increasing the drag on the engine by the stator in the alternator in order to maximize the charging of the batteries:

world.honda.com slash motorcycle-technology slash Engineidlingstop slash p4 dot html <--make that into a web address and load it in your browser, this site won't let me insert a link that you can click

...To reduce friction from power generation, and to ensure strong vehicle acceleration when equipped with the "idling stop system", the charging voltage is lowered to 12 volts from the normally regulated voltage of 14.5 volts for a prescribed period of time. In doing so, the battery is not charged during vehicle acceleration, and charged only during constant speed or deceleration. Charging during deceleration is especially effective because it means an efficient use of energy...

Someone commented that a CVT transmission is unable to return torque to the motor, but my understanding is that does not necessarily have to be the case. The CVT is a belt attaching to pulleys on two ends, and thus mechanically I can envision the belt can exert tension in either direction. Perhaps some CVTs do not down-shift the ratio between the pulleys fast enough to exert noticeable drag, and this may be to conserve the life of the CVT, belt and motor. But perhaps Honda has opted for a variable drag depending on the level of the battery, or maybe a consistent drag so the driver knows what to expect. You see there are many ways to design the programming of the CVT.

So the PCX may be much more sophisticated than people realize. It may be employing regenerative braking, a feature of very high end electrical cars, such as the Honda Insight. It can understand why someone referred to it as a "hybrid". It is. Apparently, it is using the motor to charge the batteries and then using the battery to conserve gas by running the motor (only at start time). AMAZING! The alternator as a start is only a limited duty electrical motor, so it is a very limited duty style hybrid, but quite effective apparently in the city (100+ MPG city even with hours of idlings that would lower the MPG of other motorbikes?).

This alternator might be one of the most compelling features of the PCX for me, because I think it would enable me to run some heavy power devices, such as a very loud sound system, or for cold climates heated gear. As far as I know, and in my experience, all the other sub-250cc class bikes will end up with a dead battery if you attach any significant electrical load, because their DC generators (not alternators) have no ability to generate much power at low RPMs. Understand that one big difference between an alternator and a generator, is to be able to control the current and power output, by adjusting the field voltage. I am not understanding how this design works, because as far as I can see it doesn't have a field coil?

world.honda.com slash motorcycle-technology slash Engineidlingstop slash p3 dot html

One question I have for PCX owners, do you see the lights get much brighter at higher RPMs compared to idle? That is a characteristic of the inferior generator type electric systems on these small underbone bikes, but it appears that maybe the PCX does not have that characteristic?

sure, PCX hybrid

heard it before, does not make it any more truth. Not even Honda says it.

12v/5Ah battery, and an alternator/generator/starter not allowed to charge battery just after start-up to allow "all" the power from the small 125cc engine accelerate a 140kg auto-bike, rather than recharging the power lost in battery while idlestop with headlights still on. Delay (according to Honda time delay, no sensor) charging until Honda assume bike is no more accelerating or decellerating. Great the bike comes with a switch for idle stop. Makes it possible to start engine after 5 redlights.

Edited February 7, 2010 by katabeachbum

[shelby]

sure, PCX hybrid

heard it before, does not make it any more truth. Not even Honda says it...

After further reading, I am gaining confidence that my hypothesis could be correct:

world.honda.com slash motorcycle-technology slash s_matic slash p4 dot html

...Also, by down shifting, engine braking can be used efficiently. Also applied is the "automatic shift-down" that shifts down to an optimum ratio to ensure comfort when traveling at a low speed...

I realize that the above is for a manual shift system on the CVT which PCX does not have, but it shows that Honda is aware that the ECU can be programmed to do any level of down-shifting for engine braking that they might desire. And so it is reasonably taken with my prior post, that the PCX is charging the batteries by braking with the engine during deceleration.

A possible reason that Honda is not pushing it as "hybrid", is that the fuel economy gains are only 5%. Nevertheless, I will repeat what really excites me is that the ECU can probably compensate for the electrical power load in the system and increase the charging rate as needed, e.g. if I put at 50W stereo on it.

...12v/5Ah battery, and an alternator/generator/starter not allowed to charge battery just after start-up to allow "all" the power from the small 125cc engine accelerate a 140kg auto-bike, rather than recharging the power lost in battery while idlestop with headlights still on. Delay (according to Honda time delay, no sensor) charging until Honda assume bike is no more accelerating or decellerating. Great the bike comes with a switch for idle stop. Makes it possible to start engine after 5 redlights.

It appears that the ECU can measure the voltage and thus can measure the voltage of the battery during idle off, and thus can determine when the battery needs a greater rate of charging and then of course by increasing the "field" voltage (even during acceleration if the ECU deems necessary) can charge the battery in what ever scenario you throw at it. And I bet including if you put a 50W load on it, like a stereo system

Someone needs to test my theory. One starting point is to look at the headlight at night and see if the brightness dims at low RPMs. If not, then my theory is probably correct.

Also do you understand that a generator is not an alternator? And there is a very big difference. A generator can not make a high charging current at low RPMs, but an alternator can because the "field" voltage can be controlled

Google and Wikipedia "regenerative braking". Apparently KTM was doing it on a 125cc race motorcycle in 2008 (and doing it with the flywheel as apparently PCX is, see the mention of the KERS flywheel in the Wikipedia page on "regenerative braking"). Honda has been doing it in Insight since 1996. You know here in Asia that Suzuki uses a 600CC motorcycle engine in these small cars. It is not so impossible.

Edited February 7, 2010 by shelby

[katabeachbum]

sure, PCX hybrid

heard it before, does not make it any more truth. Not even Honda says it...

After further reading, I am gaining confidence that my hypothesis could be correct:

world.honda.com slash motorcycle-technology slash s_matic slash p4 dot html

...Also, by down shifting, engine braking can be used efficiently. Also applied is the "automatic shift-down" that shifts down to an optimum ratio to ensure comfort when traveling at a low speed...

I realize that the above is for a manual shift system on the CVT which PCX does not have, but it shows that Honda is aware that the ECU can be programmed to do any level of down-shifting for engine braking that they might desire. And so it is reasonably taken with my prior post, that the PCX is charging the batteries by braking with the engine during deceleration.

A possible reason that Honda is not pushing it as "hybrid", is that the fuel economy gains are only 5%. Nevertheless, I will repeat what really excites me is that the ECU can probably compensate for the electrical power load in the system and increase the charging rate as needed, e.g. if I put at 50W stereo on it.

...12v/5Ah battery, and an alternator/generator/starter not allowed to charge battery just after start-up to allow "all" the power from the small 125cc engine accelerate a 140kg auto-bike, rather than recharging the power lost in battery while idlestop with headlights still on. Delay (according to Honda time delay, no sensor) charging until Honda assume bike is no more accelerating or decellerating. Great the bike comes with a switch for idle stop. Makes it possible to start engine after 5 redlights.

It appears that the ECU can measure the voltage and thus can measure the voltage of the battery during idle off, and thus can determine when the battery needs a greater rate of charging and then of course by increasing the "field" voltage (even during acceleration if the ECU deems necessary) can charge the battery in what ever scenario you throw at it. And I bet including if you put a 50W load on it, like a stereo system

Someone needs to test my theory. One starting point is to look at the headlight at night and see if the brightness dims at low RPMs. If not, then my theory is probably correct.

Also do you understand that a generator is not an alternator? And there is a very big difference. A generator can not make a high charging current at low RPMs, but an alternator can because the "field" voltage can be controlled

Google and Wikipedia "regenerative braking". Apparently KTM was doing it on a 125cc race motorcycle in 2008 (and doing it with the flywheel as apparently PCX is, see the mention of the KERS flywheel in the Wikipedia page on "regenerative braking"). Honda has been doing it in Insight since 1996. You know here in Asia that Suzuki uses a 600CC motorcycle engine in these small cars. It is not so impossible.

and when i m drunk and want to go home, i just say to my pcx bai baan krap

for more accurate info on your hybrid thoughts, world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/index.html

a hybrid uses, in adition or as replacement to a fossile fuel engine, electric energy stored in batteries to move the vehicle by electric engines. there is no such future on pcx, and if there was the tiny battery 12v/5ah would be out of power in seconds.

anyway, welcome to tv newbie, there are more posters in believe of pcx hybrid

[shelby]

and when i m drunk and want to go home, i just say to my pcx bai baan krap

for more accurate info on your hybrid thoughts, world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/index.html

That is the site I was quoting the information from in my 2 prior posts. I read the entire site, every page of it.

I do not drink ever. Are you drunk while you are making these posts? (I am not accusing you, just asking, because you are inserting so many emoticons, it makes me ask you since you mentioned above about you get drunk).

a hybrid uses, in adition or as replacement to a fossile fuel engine, electric energy stored in batteries to move the vehicle by electric engines. there is no such future on pcx, and if there was the tiny battery 12v/5ah would be out of power in seconds.

anyway, welcome to tv newbie, there are more posters in believe of pcx hybrid

Could you please not do personal attacks? Let's discuss the facts. I am not a newbie to technology, engineering, and motorcycles.

The hybrid action is only about 5% on the PCX, as that is the quoted fuel efficiency gains of the idle stop. The excess inertia from the acceleration is apparently being captured during deceleration to supply some of this 5% (not all, some comes from increasing charging at constant speed, and I bet even on acceleration if the ECU deems it is necessary). The point is that re-starting an engine does not come for free, so the 5% is actually to some degree coming from capturing some of excess energy generated from the gas engine that would have been wasted as heat in the brakes, storing it very temporarily in the small battery, then using it to re-start (the battery driving the electric motor to move the engine from rest to start) the engine at idle stop. Then repeat, over and over.

That is a form of a hybrid engine.

Of course a serious hybrid will have more battery storage so that it can see larger gains in fuel economy (because grid electricity is much less expensive than electricity generated from a small gas motor). As I wrote in the prior post, that is probably why Honda is not marketing it as a hybrid, because the hybrid effect is so small at about 5%. Please realize that for the regenerative braking feature of a hybrid, do not need a large battery, because recharging and discharging the battery on every acceleration and deceleration. Large battery backs are needed when storing large amount of energy from the grid, then only running the gas motor when the batteries are depleted.

This has apparently brought other benefits such as the ability to coast downhill with some resistance from the motor, so don't have to burn up the brakes.

Apparently an alternator (alternating current generator, ACG is what Honda says) has been designed into a small scooter, so that you should have bright headlights even at low RPMs. Typically what you get instead in a small displacement engine bike is a generator, which means the lights are not as bright at low RPMs. With an alternator, the maximum Wattage output can be obtained at any RPM, whereas with a generator the max wattage is only attained at the max RPMs. Thus alternators (energy = work = power x time) generate a lot more energy (amp-hours) than generators do, because we don't ride at max RPMs all the time. So you should be able to add electrical accessories unlike other small motorbikes with generators.

The 5% from idling is really not significant. It is the fact that you get a modern car-like, big-bike-like electrical and fuel injection system.

I hate carburetors, because you go on a trip for a month then come home to your bike which won't start. They require too much maintainence and fiddling. I want my bike to be reliable like a car, and fuel injection is the only way to achieve that, especially true here in the tropic where carburetors get fouled up real quick from the humidity and heat.

Edited February 7, 2010 by shelby

[katabeachbum]

and when i m drunk and want to go home, i just say to my pcx bai baan krap

for more accurate info on your hybrid thoughts, world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/index.html

That is the site I was quoting the information from in my 2 prior posts. I read the entire site, every page of it.

I do not drink ever. Are you drunk while you are making these posts? (I am not accusing you, just asking, because you are inserting so many emoticons, it makes me ask you since you mentioned above about you get drunk).

a hybrid uses, in adition or as replacement to a fossile fuel engine, electric energy stored in batteries to move the vehicle by electric engines. there is no such future on pcx, and if there was the tiny battery 12v/5ah would be out of power in seconds.

anyway, welcome to tv newbie, there are more posters in believe of pcx hybrid

Could you please not do personal attacks? Let's discuss the facts. I am not a newbie to technology, engineering, and motorcycles.

The hybrid action is only about 5% on the PCX, as that is the quoted fuel efficiency gains of the idle stop. The excess inertia from the acceleration is apparently being captured during deceleration to supply some of this 5% (not all, some comes from increasing charging at constant speed, and I bet even on acceleration if the ECU deems it is necessary). The point is that re-starting an engine does not come for free, so the 5% is actually to some degree coming from capturing some of excess energy generated from the gas engine that would have been wasted as heat in the brakes, storing it very temporarily in the small battery, then using it to re-start (the battery driving the electric motor to move the engine from rest to start) the engine at idle stop. Then repeat, over and over.

That is a form of a hybrid engine.

Of course a serious hybrid will have more battery storage so that it can see larger gains in fuel economy (because grid electricity is much less expensive than electricity generated from a small gas motor). As I wrote in the prior post, that is probably why Honda is not marketing it as a hybrid, because the hybrid effect is so small at about 5%. Please realize that for the regenerative braking feature of a hybrid, do not need a large battery, because recharging and discharging the battery on every acceleration and deceleration. Large battery backs are needed when storing large amount of energy from the grid, then only running the gas motor when the batteries are depleted.

This has apparently brought other benefits such as the ability to coast downhill with some resistance from the motor, so don't have to burn up the brakes.

Apparently an alternator (alternating current generator, ACG is what Honda says) has been designed into a small scooter, so that you should have bright headlights even at low RPMs. Typically what you get instead in a small displacement engine bike is a generator, which means the lights are not as bright at low RPMs. With an alternator, the maximum Wattage output can be obtained at any RPM, whereas with a generator the max wattage is only attained at the max RPMs. Thus alternators (energy = work = power x time) generate a lot more energy (amp-hours) than generators do. So you should be able to add electrical accessories unlike other small motorbikes with generators.

The 5% from idling is really not significant. It is the fact that you get a modern car-like, big-bike-like electrical and fuel injection system.

I hate carburetors, because you go on a trip for a month. They require too much maintainence and fiddling. I want my bike to be reliable like a car, and fuel injection is the only way to achieve that, especially true here in the tropic where carburetors get fouled up real quick from the humidity and heat.

no personal attacks intended, havent had a beer or drink today so I am sure not drunk, and PCX isnt a hybrid since it doesnt use electrical engine/power/battery to move. only to START petrolengine and CHARGE battery.

The charge cyclus differs from most vehicles though, to compensate for idlestop draining battery and the small engine compared to bike-weight.

There is nothing "modern car-like or "big-bike-like" with my PCX. Its a simpel scooter, doesnt even have proper brakes and sure no ABS. You should try one. My big bike is very different

Edited February 7, 2010 by katabeachbum

[shelby]

no personal attacks intended, havent had a beer or drink today so I am sure not drunk, and PCX isnt a hybrid since it doesnt use electrical engine/power/battery to move. only to START petrolengine and CHARGE battery.

The charge cyclus differs from most vehicles though, to compensate for idlestop draining battery and the small engine compared to bike-weight.

There is nothing "modern car-like or "big-bike-like" with my PCX. Its a simpel scooter, doesnt even have proper brakes and sure no ABS. You should try one. My big bike is very different

Thanks, it is great you have one, so you can give us first hand information.

Perhaps you can test out the headlights and see if have a consistent brightness at idle versus at 50% throttle? That will tell me a lot. Unfortunately I am in Philippines right now, so I can not go test the bike today.

Are you understanding my conceptual point that stop/start to save gas from not idling, is equivalent to moving the motorcycle with that saved gas? Thus this is indeed a hybrid system. There are two conceptual batteries:

1) the 12V/5A one

2) the conceptual battery (reservoir) that saves the gas that would have been expended on idling

It takes a certain level of abstract thought.

The charge cycle is not only different, but that difference enables it to capture energy that would be wasted as heat in the brakes. This energy gets stored in the battery and used to re-start the engine. This saves gas. There is by definition energy being saved, otherwise there would not be a 5% fuel economy savings. Maybe you can argue that most of the savings is coming from the energy to start the engine being less than the energy to idle the engine, and that may be true to some extent. And this is 2nd conceptual battery of the hybrid system.

P.S. I didn't say it has all the characteristics of a big bike, some of which are undesireable (e.g. hard to throw around in traffic, hard to maneuver into off the curb and parking scenarios, especially with the crap roads here). I said only that big-bike like electrical and fuel system is a big gain. I had a Suzuki Raider 150, which was real fast with 16 HP on 100 kg (plus my 73 kg), but a pain to keep running with carbs and race tuned/inspired DOHC, because I sometimes don't ride for a couple of months, when I am busy programming a computer or on a trip to another country. I had a Honda Dream in 1999, but rode it every day so I don't know if it would have been more reliable with its carbs on intermittent use. I had Suzuki 550 in the States way back in mid-1980s, but again rode it daily.

Edited February 7, 2010 by shelby

[b19bry]

There is nothing "modern car-like or "big-bike-like" with my PCX. Its a simpel scooter, doesnt even have proper brakes and sure no ABS. You should try one. My big bike is very different

I think that's a very harsh judgement. The PCX features a 'modern car-like' fuel injection system along and an electrical sub-system well advanced over the competition, visually the dash is also 'modern car-like' and unlike anything on competitive bikes. Against the competition 'big-bike-like' features include much improved ride comfort and stability, it has genuine highway cruising capability well beyond any other of the small bikes available here.

I think most that have ridden the bike over any distance would contend that it's much more than just 'a simple scooter'. After 2,000kms I'm still impressed each time I ride it, and I've owned/ridden bikes big and small over the years.

The dual-system brakes are excellent for a bike of this class, admittedly no ABS but which small sub 70k bikes do have ?

Of course your big bike is very different, why else would it have cost at least 3 times the price ?

To answer shelby's point re the headlights, above idle they have a consistent brightness not related to throttle setting.

[Scuddy]

Sorry Shelby but you need to go back to the site and re-read it's entire contents. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

There isn't a single thing you've written so far that actually matches what Honda are saying or promoting.

Hybrid? - no, wrong!

Regenerative braking? No, wrong!

I was going to bring up and quote your previous posts and go through it line by line with you but the more I read them the more I realised it's a waste of time. Then I thought about actually posting all of Honda's tech' stuff (I posted the original link on another PCX thread) so you could compare what you've written with what Honda is actually stating. But to be honest it would be quicker for you to keep reading Honda's site until it makes sense. Go through your own posts line by line and compare it, maybe then you'll get it.

Maybe you should replace conceptual with intangible which then leads to imaginary and of course fantasy.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Scuddy

[CMX]

To me, the expression "hybrid" MEANS, is DEFINED (and I'm from the U.S. and the advertising and discussions might be specific to that nation) only those vehicles that are directly driven by electrical motors to regular speeds some of the time. Technological advances designed to reduce the use of petroleum are defined for us in advertising and conversation by their miles per gallon figures, with reference made to the technology.

So I conclude that most of the thoughts above all simply depend upon the definition of "hybrid" and do not differ on other essentials very much.

Personally, I love driving the PCX, but it is too large for this aging (almost wrote old) biker in heavy city traffic and does not offer the easiest parking in Chiang Mai. Nevertheless, it is intended as a fuel saving "full featured" bike for the Asian market. I think that the 125 Honda Dylan that I owned in France five years ago had more power, but it put more rubber on the road and did not feature fuel injection or stop/stop OR fuel efficiency as good as the PCX - or the look.

[jackcorbett]

Personally, I love driving the PCX, but it is too large for this aging (almost wrote old) biker in heavy city traffic and does not offer the easiest parking in Chiang Mai. Nevertheless, it is intended as a fuel saving "full featured" bike for the Asian market. I think that the 125 Honda Dylan that I owned in France five years ago had more power, but it put more rubber on the road and did not feature fuel injection or stop/stop OR fuel efficiency as good as the PCX - or the look.

There is no question about it, to gain something one must give up something. When my present tires wear out on my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance I'm thinking of going up a size. If I do so I will be having more rolling resistance and that's going to cost me in fuel economy. But my bike will be a little better riding crossing speed bumps. It will be safer too as it will have more rubber on the road. But I've had two hernia operations in the same spot and that area is sore a lot of the time due I think to scar tissue. Speed bumps do not feel good. And you guys ever go into a parking area only to find that every spot is taken so you end up making your own spot by picking up someone else's motorbike and moving it aside then muscling your own motorbike into the small gap? Well for this sort of thing the Nouvo Elegance is going to be a lot easier on me than the Honda 125 PCxi. But i think the PCXi with its fat tires would make all those speed bumps easier to take. of course the best handling device I have for slithering in and out of small spaces is my Specialized road bike (pedal bike). It will go anywhere and it weighs just 19 pounds. I can always pick it up and carry it across the street if I want too. However my groin is aching right now just thinking about going over all those speed bumps on it.

[katabeachbum]

To me, the expression "hybrid" MEANS, is DEFINED (and I'm from the U.S. and the advertising and discussions might be specific to that nation) only those vehicles that are directly driven by electrical motors to regular speeds some of the time. Technological advances designed to reduce the use of petroleum are defined for us in advertising and conversation by their miles per gallon figures, with reference made to the technology.

So I conclude that most of the thoughts above all simply depend upon the definition of "hybrid" and do not differ on other essentials very much.

Personally, I love driving the PCX, but it is too large for this aging (almost wrote old) biker in heavy city traffic and does not offer the easiest parking in Chiang Mai. Nevertheless, it is intended as a fuel saving "full featured" bike for the Asian market. I think that the 125 Honda Dylan that I owned in France five years ago had more power, but it put more rubber on the road and did not feature fuel injection or stop/stop OR fuel efficiency as good as the PCX - or the look.

PCX does have some technical features to save fuel.

Injection with some sensors (unfortunately no knock sensor), efficient battery charging, and (questionable on fuel saving/battery lifetime/charging) idle stop.

However the single most efficient way to save fuel is to reduce weight. Compared to other similar size(enginedisplacement and wheelbase) bikes, PCX is very heavy. I havent yet measured milage accurate on PCX after break in, but I doubt its better than competition.

[shelby]

Sorry Shelby but you need to go back to the site and re-read it's entire contents. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Ah you just don't understand the technical aspects well enough. I understand Honda's technical site more deeply than you do.

Einstein:

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter

cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary

prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

There isn't a single thing you've written so far that actually matches what Honda are saying or promoting.

Hybrid? - no, wrong!

I already explained how it is a conceptual hybrid. It certainly isn't homogeneous (the antonym).

Perhaps you need to learn to use a dictionary.

hy-brid

"anything derived from heterogeneous sources, or composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds"

More specifically, Honda's technical site explains that the generator is turned off during acceleration and generates during deceleration, which is precisely how Wikipedia defines one class of hybrid:

from wiki pedia for "Mild Parallel Hybrid"

"These types use a generally compact electric motor to give extra output during the acceleration, and to generate on the deceleration phase."

Are you proud of yourself now?

Regenerative braking? No, wrong!

The generator is charging on deceleration, which MUST MEAN that is using inertia. It is scientifically impossible to extract energy if you don't extract inertia. Again you are not knowledgeable!

Maybe you should replace conceptual with intangible which then leads to imaginary and of course fantasy.

Read above and weep Mr Know Nothing.

You would think you would have some respect for someone as accomplished as I am in engineering, math, and physics.

If I was born in America, has nothing to do with it. You really think all Americans are uneducated? Geez I didn't even go to class, I just showed up for the exams and ranked #3 out of a section of 300 in my technical classes at a major university, and that was back in early 1980s before the culture went completely to rot.

[shelby]

To me, the expression "hybrid" MEANS, is DEFINED (and I'm from the U.S. and the advertising and discussions might be specific to that nation) only those vehicles that are directly driven by electrical motors to regular speeds some of the time. Technological advances designed to reduce the use of petroleum are defined for us in advertising and conversation by their miles per gallon figures, with reference made to the technology.

Read Wikipedia please.

So I conclude that most of the thoughts above all simply depend upon the definition of "hybrid" and do not differ on other essentials very much.

Personally, I love driving the PCX, but it is too large for this aging (almost wrote old) biker in heavy city traffic and does not offer the easiest parking in Chiang Mai. Nevertheless, it is intended as a fuel saving "full featured" bike for the Asian market. I think that the 125 Honda Dylan that I owned in France five years ago had more power, but it put more rubber on the road and did not feature fuel injection or stop/stop OR fuel efficiency as good as the PCX - or the look.

That is great to hear and what I expected to be the case.

There is nothing "modern car-like or "big-bike-like" with my PCX. Its a simpel scooter, doesnt even have proper brakes and sure no ABS. You should try one. My big bike is very different

I think that's a very harsh judgement. The PCX features a 'modern car-like' fuel injection system along and an electrical sub-system well advanced over the competition, visually the dash is also 'modern car-like' and unlike anything on competitive bikes. Against the competition 'big-bike-like' features include much improved ride comfort and stability, it has genuine highway cruising capability well beyond any other of the small bikes available here.

I think most that have ridden the bike over any distance would contend that it's much more than just 'a simple scooter'. After 2,000kms I'm still impressed each time I ride it, and I've owned/ridden bikes big and small over the years.

The dual-system brakes are excellent for a bike of this class, admittedly no ABS but which small sub 70k bikes do have ?

Of course your big bike is very different, why else would it have cost at least 3 times the price ?

To answer shelby's point re the headlights, above idle they have a consistent brightness not related to throttle setting.

Again great to hear and what I expected. That fairly well confirms my theory. Thanks!

I will be ordering one from Remcor here in Philippines. All the best.

[shelby]

Scuddy, apologies I thought you wrote something derogatory about Americans, I must have been reading something else on another open tab in my browser. Any way, it is too late to edit my prior post. Btw, I am not defending America and its culture or politics (but lets no go there please). Apologies again for mentioning that.

On re-reading your post, I see it was not as inflammatory as I thought.

It appears the crux of your criticism is that PCX does not have way to capture energy from the brakes at the wheel, nor an electric motor that supplies power for motion.

But please try to understand that the Honda technical documents claim that the electrical generator which would normally be draining power during acceleration on all other motorcycles, is not draining power on acceleration for the PCX. So this is a net plus in power during acceleration. Then the PCX is increasing the drag on the motor by the generator to recapture the lost power on deceleration. That is exactly what a regenerative braking system accomplishes. That may or may not be as large as the effect of no burning gas on idle stop, but in any case, that regenerative generation system is necessary to NET recharge the battery to power the restarts.

You may think that because the generator is not connected to the wheels then it is not slowing the bike down or capturing any of the inertia in the flywheel or bike as a whole. Well we have one report already that the bike is braked by the motor on downhill. But irregardless of that, there is this law in physics (thermodynamics) called the conversation of energy.

No matter how you slice it or theorize about it, the fact is that from Honda's technical documents, 5% fuel savings is coming from the "regenerative generator management used to drive the idle stop and the gas saved during idle stop" of the electrical subsystem.

Is that 5% fuel efficiency system thus not a hybrid? Well just go to Wikipedia and read all the different types of "hybrid vehicle" systems.

Is the 5% savings a fantasy? So you are saying Honda is lying?

Edited February 13, 2010 by shelby

[griz47]

Saw my first one on the road in BKK this morning. It is definitely chunky. It was nearly side by side with an elegance and it certainly looked to have a much more ungainly rear. Then some people like that. It was definitely having more trouble in the heavy traffic than the other scooters, but when I got alongside, it certainly looks a lot nicer than the other riffraff.

Well, I like it. Still there are going to be times the Elegance will outperform it. Example.....Going over curbs and other obstacles. And again, it is likely to be more agile. There's a bar complex I often to to and the 16 inch wheels of the Nouvo get me right over the curb and right into the bar complex itself. When I was last at Koh Samet I rented a Honda Click with dirt bike tires and believe me I took that Click a lot of places I would have thought no scooter ever could go., and I don't think that no matter what tires you put on it the PCXi is going to be a bit of a hog for that kind of driving. And I just got back from Korat where I stayed in the village for 4 days. Everyone of the people in that immediate area I stayed in had a Honda Wave 100. Not 125's but 100's. They did get the job done for those people. And they use those things for everything going on and off road. I think for those people the Honda pcxi would be a bit cumbersome for driving down all those dirt trails.

Also......I've always like Air Blades. I just happen to like my 135 c.c. Nouvo Elegance better. But I'm right at six foot and I'm only 165 to 170 pounds so I'm not that large a guy. But seeing pictures of myself on an Air Blade I do look too large for the machine---rather goofy that is.

At 72,000 Baht this is OTT. I like the bike but am not prepared to pay the money. There is a Yamaha at 56,000 Baht, 135cc scooter, automatic and I think it is a better deal.

[katabeachbum]

Scuddy, apologies I thought you wrote something derogatory about Americans, I must have been reading something else on another open tab in my browser. Any way, it is too late to edit my prior post. Btw, I am not defending America and its culture or politics (but lets no go there please). Apologies again for mentioning that.

On re-reading your post, I see it was not as inflammatory as I thought.

It appears the crux of your criticism is that PCX does not have way to capture energy from the brakes at the wheel, nor an electric motor that supplies power for motion.

But please try to understand that the Honda technical documents claim that the electrical generator which would normally be draining power during acceleration on all other motorcycles, is not draining power on acceleration for the PCX. So this is a net plus in power during acceleration. Then the PCX is increasing the drag on the motor by the generator to recapture the lost power on deceleration. That is exactly what a regenerative braking system accomplishes. That may or may not be as large as the effect of no burning gas on idle stop, but in any case, that regenerative generation system is necessary to NET recharge the battery to power the restarts.

You may think that because the generator is not connected to the wheels then it is not slowing the bike down or capturing any of the inertia in the flywheel or bike as a whole. Well we have one report already that the bike is braked by the motor on downhill. But irregardless of that, there is this law in physics (thermodynamics) called the conversation of energy.

No matter how you slice it or theorize about it, the fact is that from Honda's technical documents, 5% fuel savings is coming from the "regenerative generator management used to drive the idle stop and the gas saved during idle stop" of the electrical subsystem.

Is that 5% fuel efficiency system thus not a hybrid? Well just go to Wikipedia and read all the different types of "hybrid vehicle" systems.

Is the 5% savings a fantasy? So you are saying Honda is lying?

Shelby. please read Hondas info again. PCX does not charge battery the initial seconds after starting engine. Doesnt matter if accelerating or not. Then it starts charging at 14,5 volt. Doesnt matter if its decellerating or accelerating. Its a timer for charging, not a hybrid device.

If you dont belive me, connect a Voltmeter when you get you PCX and measure charging after 20 seconds while still accelerating. Timer allows it to charge now, wether its accelerating, cruising or decellerating.

Measure after 5 seconds while decellerating. Timer doesnt allow it to charge now. A hybrid would charge on all decelerating.

Bike is not breaked downhill to regenerate energy, its just some friction in CVT, just like most cvt auto bikes. Most manual gear bike riders dislike this lack of engine brake on auto bikes.

PCX aint no hybrid. Its equipped with a new combined electric engine to start and charge. its got idle stop, like Audi had in 1980. thats it.

[shelby]

Shelby. please read Hondas info again. PCX does not charge battery the initial seconds after starting engine. Doesnt matter if accelerating or not. Then it starts charging at 14,5 volt. Doesnt matter if its decellerating or accelerating. Its a timer for charging, not a hybrid device.

If you dont belive me, connect a Voltmeter when you get you PCX and measure charging after 20 seconds while still accelerating. Timer allows it to charge now, wether its accelerating, cruising or decellerating.

Logic 101

Whether it is timer based, or by sensing acceleration and deceleration, is irrelevant. The net effect is still charging the battery more frequently during deceleration and cruising, than during acceleration (from stop). Otherwise there would be no point in having the feature to vary the charging intensity in time.

Notwithstanding the point of the prior paragraph, I think it is impossible that is only timer based. That would mean that I could drain the battery by accelerating, brake hard to an idle stop, repeat over and over until battery is dead from starting with no recharging. I doubt that Honda has failed to account for that scenario. Has anyone tried it? I suspect there is a sensor for voltage, and when that voltage is too low on idle stop, the timer is turned off and the bike is always charging, even on acceleration. Or there may be a more sophisticated sensing and time-based adjustment of charging level.

Measure after 5 seconds while decellerating. Timer doesnt allow it to charge now. A hybrid would charge on all decelerating.

That is not true. A hybrid would not charge when its battery is already fully charged. The larger the batteries, then the more likely charging is always occurring on deceleration.

The big difference is that we can't put heavy batteries on a motorcycle, as it defeats the benefit that the hybrid would attempt to achieve. This is why we can only get about 5% out of it, by focusing only on the idle savings.

katabeachbum wrote:

"Bike is not breaked downhill to regenerate energy, its just some friction in CVT"

That may or may not be the case. But as I wrote in my prior post, it is irrelevant.

, just like most cvt auto bikes.

Most manual gear bike riders dislike this lack of engine brake on auto bikes.

You have a logic error. If there is friction doing braking, then there is some engine braking. The prior post was raving about the level of engine braking on the PCX.

PCX aint no hybrid. Its equipped with a new combined electric engine to start and charge. its got idle stop, like Audi had in 1980. thats it.

A form of a Mild Parallel Hybrid, albeit with very small battery, thus only focused on the idle stop potential of the regenerative capture. It makes no sense to capture excess inertia that you have no way to store (because the battery is too small). PCX captures only what the battery can store.

The idle stop is really irrelevant in terms of fuel savings (5%), which is probably why it didn't make much sense in the Audi in 1980. The big benefit appears to be a better control over battery charging and easier and less noisy starting (low friction and more sure the battery is kept fully charged). But the biggest benefit is that if every vehicle is using these, then we are not suffocating in exhaust fumes in traffic. It also perhaps makes the engine cooling work better as not sitting without airflow over the radiator, although it might be worse because you have that already hot engine baking itself with no cooling. Some hitech engines run the cooling system for a while after the motor is turned off to prevent this baking of the oil.

Edited February 14, 2010 by shelby

[katabeachbum]

idlestop 120 seconds (many phuket redlights are 130 seconds), accelerate 12-15 seconds, idlestop 2 minutes, acc........ repeat 6-8 times

and you have a dead battery. 16 minutes idlestop draining 90-100watt (lights) and no charging initial 12-15 seconds: 12v/5ah battery is drained. no kick start on this babe.

To avoid this, Honda has been clever enough to equip PCX with a switch to avoid idlestop. Battery is not drained during stops and charging is continous until battery is full.

Several reasons for Audi to skip idlestop in the 80s. No engine running: no heater/defroster, no aircon, and of course the battery charging problem. Mid 80s when daytime headlights became the law in several countries, they quit idlestop

there is no more or less enginebraking on pcx than on my yammy135, yammy Tmax500cc, airblade PGM Fi or suzuki125cc, all with cvt auto

PCX aint no hybrid, it only stores one kind of energy (gasoline) to move vehicle, and it has only one engine to move vehicle (gasoline)

great small scooter though

[KarenBravo]

I think the PCX is basically the new Mercedes of scooters.......

Nah.......this baby is the Mercedes of scooters:-

[Scuddy]

How much in pesos is the PCX in the Philippines?

[GungaDin]

Shelby. please read Hondas info again. PCX does not charge battery the initial seconds after starting engine. Doesnt matter if accelerating or not. Then it starts charging at 14,5 volt. Doesnt matter if its decellerating or accelerating. Its a timer for charging, not a hybrid device.

If you dont belive me, connect a Voltmeter when you get you PCX and measure charging after 20 seconds while still accelerating. Timer allows it to charge now, wether its accelerating, cruising or decellerating.

Logic 101

Whether it is timer based, or by sensing acceleration and deceleration, is irrelevant. The net effect is still charging the battery more frequently during deceleration and cruising, than during acceleration (from stop). Otherwise there would be no point in having the feature to vary the charging intensity in time.

>Snip>

Can you guys carry this on by PM? :D :D :D

Puppies and a rag doll comes to mind.

Let's read about rider experiences.

[katabeachbum]

Shelby. please read Hondas info again. PCX does not charge battery the initial seconds after starting engine. Doesnt matter if accelerating or not. Then it starts charging at 14,5 volt. Doesnt matter if its decellerating or accelerating. Its a timer for charging, not a hybrid device.

If you dont belive me, connect a Voltmeter when you get you PCX and measure charging after 20 seconds while still accelerating. Timer allows it to charge now, wether its accelerating, cruising or decellerating.

Logic 101

Whether it is timer based, or by sensing acceleration and deceleration, is irrelevant. The net effect is still charging the battery more frequently during deceleration and cruising, than during acceleration (from stop). Otherwise there would be no point in having the feature to vary the charging intensity in time.

>Snip>

Can you guys carry this on by PM?

Puppies and a rag doll comes to mind.

Let's read about rider experiences.

we are discussing PCX features and claimed features. My posts are based on my rider experience and Hondas info. and relax, PCX is not faster than your yammy E 135

[b19bry]

idlestop 120 seconds (many phuket redlights are 130 seconds), accelerate 12-15 seconds, idlestop 2 minutes, acc........ repeat 6-8 times

and you have a dead battery. 16 minutes idlestop draining 90-100watt (lights) and no charging initial 12-15 seconds: 12v/5ah battery is drained. no kick start on this babe.

To avoid this, Honda has been clever enough to equip PCX with a switch to avoid idlestop. Battery is not drained during stops and charging is continous until battery is full.

The great majority of the lights here are <90sec though sometimes I'll get one at more than 100sec, I always use the idlestop and after 2000k's the battery is as strong ever. The only time I override the idlestop is when I need a slick getaway pulling into traffic doing a u-turn or suchlike manoeuvre.

Several reasons for Audi to skip idlestop in the 80s. No engine running: no heater/defroster, no aircon, and of course the battery charging problem. Mid 80s when daytime headlights became the law in several countries, they quit idlestop

Plus they were using a conventional starter motor which puts a heavy drain on the battery. One of the great features of the PCX is it's low friction, very quiet engine starting which I'm sure puts much less strain on the battery.

[b19bry]

Shelby. please read Hondas info again. PCX does not charge battery the initial seconds after starting engine. Doesnt matter if accelerating or not. Then it starts charging at 14,5 volt. Doesnt matter if its decellerating or accelerating. Its a timer for charging, not a hybrid device.

If you dont belive me, connect a Voltmeter when you get you PCX and measure charging after 20 seconds while still accelerating. Timer allows it to charge now, wether its accelerating, cruising or decellerating.

Logic 101

Whether it is timer based, or by sensing acceleration and deceleration, is irrelevant. The net effect is still charging the battery more frequently during deceleration and cruising, than during acceleration (from stop). Otherwise there would be no point in having the feature to vary the charging intensity in time.

>Snip>

Can you guys carry this on by PM?

Puppies and a rag doll comes to mind.

Let's read about rider experiences.

Actually I find this discussion interesting !

[b19bry]

we are discussing PCX features and claimed features. My posts are based on my rider experience and Hondas info. and relax, PCX is not faster than your yammy E 135

But it is way more technically advanced

[b19bry]

At 72,000 Baht this is OTT. I like the bike but am not prepared to pay the money. There is a Yamaha at 56,000 Baht, 135cc scooter, automatic and I think it is a better deal.

You pay your money and take your choice, but there is no doubt the PCX is worth the extra.