Best Way To Learn Thai

[Swany]

Hello everybody

My husband and I will be arriving in Chiang Mai shortly for a couple of months, then later in the year returning for 12 months if there are no problems with the visa. My husband wants to learn to speak Thai properly (including writing), and will undertake a short course during our first visit to make sure he gets on OK with being back in a learning environment after so many years away from it, then take a longer (probably a whole year) course when we return. My question is simple - what is the best way for him to go? There are so many options out there from Chiang Mai University to what appear to be farang owned schools to local schools to private tutors (although I'm not sure that the budget will run to private tutors for a whole year even though I have no idea of the cost). Also, would he be better to stay with the same institution for both the short introductory and longer course?

Which of the above do you think would be the best for him? Of course, it's a subjective thing, but I would appreciate hearing different opinions of the pros and cons of any or all. He is very serious about this, and I want to make sure he starts out in the right direction.

Thank you in advance for any help

[hiero]

i'd probably say get a 1-1 for an hour or more a day and do some self study as well. Earlier on i think a teacher is important or at least real interaction with a thai person.

[bankruatsteve]

I don't know about the schools - but, for me anyway, the best way to start is to get the kids alphabet (comic) book "Gaw Gai, Kaw Kai, etc." and memorize the Thai alphabet ie: the phonetics. It's not that hard (well you need a Thai to tell you the sounds.) then, everything after that is so much easier.

Cheers

[Loz]

Remember how you learned your first language?

Same rules apply.

immersion in new language, start with listening and progress to speaking. DON'T OVER THINK IT!

when you have some good basic knowlege that you have "road tested" find someone who can tutor for the reading and writing. (just like what happened to you as a kid learning language 1).

If you use the language frequently in and out of the home it will stick faster. make up games like reading number plates for the province when you are out and about.

Most of all, keep it fun and useful. no point learning lots of words u won't use very often. try to learn phrases that will be common. Its amazing how quickly you can learn to modify a phrase and make several new ones.

Good luck! ( Chok dee, na Krup!)

[CaptHaddock]

Payap University in Chiang Mai has an intensive Thai course with 20 hours per week of instruction. This looks like the best option in Chiang Mai. The course at Chiang Mai U is only 4 hours per week.

http://ic.payap.ac.th/certificate/thai/about.php

Second language acquisition is nothing like learning your first language from your mother. The best approach is a university course that covers reading, writing, speaking, and comprehension in a well-ordered way. There are no short cuts.

Edited January 7, 2010 by CaptHaddock

[Swany]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I'll now convince him to join TV and monitor this forum.

[hiero]

Second language acquisition is nothing like learning your first language from your mother. The best approach is a university course that covers reading, writing, speaking, and comprehension in a well-ordered way. There are no short cuts.

Not one to play devils advocate but I don't think it's as clear cut as that.

[Parvis]

From my experience there are "shortcuts" in learning Thai - if done in an "orderly systematic way". Unfortunately - in my experience "Private Language Schools" are not the "shortest cut".

I started with 30 private lessons in a Language School with no transliteration of any kind (the only school who does that) - at a cost of 22,500 baht.

I continued with "Rossetta stone" interactive software - which I had bought a few years ago while still living in the US at approx US$200 (7000 baht) - but had not used until now because I found it too difficult (I was not able to read Thai script at that time).

Comparing the two now - I find "Rossetta stone" significantly more effective than the School I had attended - and only less than 1/3 the cost. Both systems are essentially based on "total immersion" - no explanations given - all in Thai script. You learn the "structure" and vocabulary by using it.

I am now able to understand "the gist" of Thai TV programs - as long as they are only on one subject (such as Nature programs) - News I still find to be too difficult for me - so far.

My recommendations therefore are:

1) Learn beginners Thai and script from a book such as Benjawan Poomsan " Thai for Beginners".

2) Continue your studies with software "Rosetta Stone" or similar - as long as they are ONLY in Thai script - you will increase your vocabulary - learn (struggle) to read Thai - learn basic sentence patterns. Pronounciation you can imitate the software - and even record to evaluate your progress.

3) Only then consider using a private teacher to continue your progress.

I will now consider taking additional lessons from a private teacher. I have also interviewed "Piammitr School" about their "Conversational Thai"(15,000 baht for private lessons) - which is all in Thai script.

Does any one have experience with "Piammitr"? Any other comments/recommendations are also always welcome.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Parvis

[kunjet]

Personally the books have not been helpful to me. I need direct interaction and a schedule to stick by. I took classes at Payap before and thought they were good and will get you started.

[MrBrad]

Keep in mind that if you are wanting to eavesdrop on Chiang Mai-ers in the market, your Standard Thai knowledge won't help. Local folks in the North speak Lanna Thai, also referred to as Kam Muang. (I'm guessing that there may be as little as 10% overlap between the two languages...maybe less!) Although they will all understand Standard Thai / Central Thai since it is used in all schools and radio and TV, they usually speak only Lanna Thai with each other. There doesn't seem to be much demand for teaching Lanna Thai to foreigners, so it is hard to find a program that will help in that respect.

As for learning Thai--or any other foreign language for that matter, the more hours of study that you can squeeze into a week, the better. A couple of hours on the weekends only will not accomplish much.

[Ratsima]

If your husbands likes to use language learning software, he can also have a look at L-Lingo Thai. It is an online, 40 lesson Thai trainer and completely free to use. We are just developing it and thus there will be many more features coming soon. We are just working on adding grammar notes to the program.

http://www.l-lingo.com/en/learn-thai/index.html

I just spent some time with this. It is very similar to the Rosetta Stone. I applaud L-Lingo for putting it online for free. You will learn a lot by using it.

However, I have the same reservations about it as I have about Rosetta Stone: neither one use the vocabulary and language that people really use in every day situations.

For example, why use สุนัข instead of หมา? When's the last time you heard someone say สุนัข?

It's the difference between this:

What is the man doing?

The man is drinking a cup of tea.

and this:

What's he doin'?

Drinkin' tea.

My wife loves Rosetta Stone. It thoroughly cracks her up every time she hears me listening to it. She's become quite expert at imitating what she calls "Rosetta Stone Thai"; a language that I have mastered but which is relatively useless. Yes, I can do very well on both the Rosetta Stone and L-Lingo written and listening tests, but I still have trouble going in to a minimart to buy a bottle of water.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Ratsima

[SoftWater]

It's the difference between this:

What is the man doing?

The man is drinking a cup of tea.

and this:

What's he doin'?

Drinkin' tea.

My wife loves Rosetta Stone. It thoroughly cracks her up every time she hears me listening to it. She's become quite expert at imitating what she calls "Rosetta Stone Thai"; a language that I have mastered but which is relatively useless. Yes, I can do very well on both the Rosetta Stone and L-Lingo written and listening tests, but I still have trouble going in to a minimart to buy a bottle of water.

I'd agree that words like สุนัข are out of place in a program like Rosetta stone, but they are useful to know eventually for reading (signs in public places, for example).

I also agree that its frustrating to learn a kind of classroom-style version of a language, but I don't think its wholly inappropriate at a beginner level like Rosetta. Parallel it with learning English. Would you teach your wife 'dya wanna a beer, then?' before teaching here 'Do you want another glass of beer?' Both are valid, but the second will always be understood. Its easier to pick up on colloquial and idiomatic speech patterns once you've got an understanding of the basic words and structure.

[Parvis]

I am a "strong believer" in "total immersion" to learn a language. Thinking back to my "total Immersion experiences" in my life. I have learned "German, Polish, English and Spanish" in exactly some form of "total Immersion" with little Class participation in the first 30 years of my life (German is my mother language).

The main difficulty in Thai I feel is "Thai script". I agree "Rosetta Stone" is "outdated" - but certainly more beneficial than a certain School where "Kee mii glin men, chai may" type of Verbage is used and even defended by the schools manager. Which without daubt - will not be valuable in everday conversation.

"Rosetta Stone is outdated" - but I believe a "self-study" of this type is more effective and lead to faster results to learn a language - especially in the beginning - than any formal "oldfashioned School attendance". "One on one private lessons" are just an extension of "guided total immersion" and certainly beneficial in the intermediate stages of Language study for which no Software appears to be available. BUT - "self-study" requires "self motivation" which not every Individual is capable of.

I hope "L-Lingo" will become an updated version of the Rossetta Stone concept.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Parvis

[Ratsima]

Parallel it with learning English. Would you teach your wife 'dya wanna a beer, then?' before teaching here 'Do you want another glass of beer?' Both are valid, but the second will always be understood. Its easier to pick up on colloquial and idiomatic speech patterns once you've got an understanding of the basic words and structure.

I definitely think that teaching colloquial speech right from the get-go is the best way to learn. After all, isn't that they way you learned your native language? As an infant you listened to people using colloquial and idiomatic speech. You didn't learn about grammar, complete sentences and formal speech until long after you learned to communicate with every-day speech. "Dad, I wanna go wit you."

Yes, Rosetta Stone taught me how to read. But it completely failed when it comes to communicating on an every day level in Thailand.

BTW, here's another one from L-Lingo: Why use ศรีษะ instead of หัว?

[SoftWater]

Yes, but you cannot learn a second language as an adult the way you learned a first language as a child. The studies from psychology and language acquisition are overwhelmingly conclusive on this point. Alas, some schools still keep trying to sell this idea...

[Parvis]

True - the learning process is "somewhat" different as an adult - but looking back at my own experience I certainly learned my 3rd and 4th language as an adult in some form of "total immersion" - and I even claim English - my 3rd language - is now my primary language.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Parvis

[Ratsima]

Yes, but you cannot learn a second language as an adult the way you learned a first language as a child. The studies from psychology and language acquisition are overwhelmingly conclusive on this point. Alas, some schools still keep trying to sell this idea...

OK, then, some advice, please. I just went through all 40 lessons from the L-Lingo site, referred to above. I took both the "Picture" and "Translation" quizzes on almost all 40 lessons. (I skipped some of the early, more basic lessons.) I scored almost 100% on every quiz. I think that shows that I have a basic vocabulary and can read a bit.

But, if I go to the minimart now and ask for น้ำ เปล่า they're going to look at me as if I'd asked for tickets to the opera or a flight to the moon. And, whatever they say back to me is going to go in one ear and out the other, with absolutely no stop in my brain.

If they spoke and understood Rosetta Stone Thai, I'd get along just fine….

Edited January 11, 2010 by Ratsima

[SoftWater]

You're experience is very common - I still get it after seven years of living here; my wife is Thai, my kids are Thai, and still, they will all look at me and go 'อะไรนะ' alai na? [eh?] sometimes when I speak Thai, as will people in shops occasionally. It happens less so as time goes by, and you'll also notice that it happens to Thais too.

In the short term, improve your listening skills by using the AUA videos on youtube that are here

This is not 'rosetta stone' style listening - its native and its natural, but its also structured with lots of contextual clues. They've got a lot now, so trawl through the channel to find the easier ones to get started. Also see the thread started by aanon about subtitled videos - these can be very helpful too. Listen in Thai, understand by reading the English.

There's only one way to improve your pronunciation, and that is you've got to speak more ( I need to take my own advice, my speaking is terrible), and the best way to do that, IMHO, is get yourself a private tutor for a couple of hours a week. You need something more structured than you can get with a bf/gf/husband/wife. I know some of the more 'gifted' or just plain outgoing folks on this forum will say 'don't be silly, just go and talk to someone at the bus stop', but for some, me included, that doesn't really work. Try any of the good language schools for a private tutor that can come to your home.

Best of luck. I know how you feel!

Edited January 11, 2010 by SoftWater

[Ratsima]

Thanks for the You Tube link. I'll give it a shot. Not loading right now, so I'll have to wait a bit.

For those interested, here's another link to the ALG Thai playlist: ALG Thai - You Tube Playlist

I tried the subtitled videos back when that thread was started. Didn't really work for me. I don't know why.

Not so easy to find a tutor here in Korat. I may have one lined up, but still not sure.

And, yeah, part of the problem is that I'm very shy and reticent. I don't even have much to say when the language is, English, my own. I'm almost always content to sit back and let others do the talking.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Ratsima

[SoftWater]

And, yeah, part of the problem is that I'm very shy and reticent. I don't even have much to say when the language is, English, my own. I'm almost always content to sit back and let others do the talking.

Lol, me too! If you can't find a local teacher, another option is to join a language exchange site like italki and video/webcam chat with Thais learning English. There's many more Thais on here learning English than foreigners learning Thai, (and in fact, many in Korat), so you have a lot of people interested in being your language 'partner'. Only downside is you need a decent broadband connection. However, like I said, there's a lot of students from Korat on italki, and you might be able to find a local tutor that way. (In fact, tutors and teachers advertise on italki too). Give it a try.

[Ratsima]

This evening my wife and her daughter were trying to teach me the difference between harvest (เกี่ยว), green (เขียว) and chew (เคี้ยว).

I'm sorry, but they all sound the same to me. Yeah, I can look at the spelling and see that they are pronounced differently, but when the sound comes into my brain they are identical.

How can I ever learn to speak or understand Thai when three words that are so different sound exactly the same to me?

[singa-traz]

This evening my wife and her daughter were trying to teach me the difference between harvest (เกี่ยว), green (เขียว) and chew (เคี้ยว).

I'm sorry, but they all sound the same to me. Yeah, I can look at the spelling and see that they are pronounced differently, but when the sound comes into my brain they are identical.

How can I ever learn to speak or understand Thai when three words that are so different sound exactly the same to me?

You just need to practice ... every day.

And if you don't get the tones ... you can always often use the context to understand.

[Parvis]

I would agree that "green" and "chew" sound the same - but not "harvest". I think it is a question in what context you use it.

[Ratsima]

Thanks for the You Tube link. I'll give it a shot. Not loading right now, so I'll have to wait a bit.

For those interested, here's another link to the ALG Thai playlist: ALG Thai - You Tube Playlist

Has anyone been able to watch any of the ALG videos on YouTube? Every time I try to load one I get an error.

[aanon]

Thanks for the You Tube link. I'll give it a shot. Not loading right now, so I'll have to wait a bit.

For those interested, here's another link to the ALG Thai playlist: ALG Thai - You Tube Playlist

Has anyone been able to watch any of the ALG videos on YouTube? Every time I try to load one I get an error.

Yes, I just tried the link given by softwater. It worked fine. Actually it was interesting. I haven't seen these videos before.

See if this works:

If it's still not working, what error message do you get?

[kokesaat]

"my wife and her daughter were trying to teach me the difference"

No offense to your wife and daughter, but getting the hang of tones really requires someone with patience and knowledge of how to teach. There's some sort of old saying, something like, if you want to stay married, don't try to teach your wife to drive. I'd say the same thing about trying to learn Thai. I taught my wife to drive (it was close, but we stayed married), but trying to get my wife to teach me the basics was impossible. Now that I've learned tones and have better pronunciation, I can ask my wife a Thai related question and she's much happier to help.

I'm 59, have a hearing disability, and convinced myself for many years I'd never be able to tackle tones or the Thai alphabet. Not true.....you just need to find a good teacher.

[Ratsima]

See if this works:

<snip>

If it's still not working, what error message do you get?

"An error occurred, please try again later."

All day yesterday and all day today.

"my wife and her daughter were trying to teach me the difference"

No offense to your wife and daughter, but getting the hang of tones really requires someone with patience and knowledge of how to teach.

Neither wife nor child try to teach me Thai. In this case I'd overheard a conversation. I thought I heard "green", but the wife was actually saying "chew" to her daughter. I simply asked for an explanation of the difference. "Harvest" came in because when I tried to say "chew" I actually said "harvest". This is a common problem for me as I have difficulty in distinguishing between voiced and unvoiced consonants. (Not to mention tones.)

Finding a good teacher is much easier said than done. I live in Korat. I went to the italki site suggested by SoftWater. I found one teacher in Korat. She wants 10,000 baht per hour!

I'd be most grateful if someone could point me to a patient and knowledgeable Thai tutor in Korat.

You just need to practice ... every day.

And what would that practice consist of?

[Parvis]

If I recall correctly a "Spectral resolution (frequency)" of the tones produced actually show that most speakers will somewhat lower their tone before rising (rising tone) - and somewhat elevate their tone before falling (falling tone). To keep this in mind may improve your understanding and your ability to produce them.

Now try to say "mosquito'" - jung - in a flat low tone

then try "Busy" - jung - by elevating the tone before falling at the end.

I think you may be understood - at least it appeared to have worked for me.

I think "Softwater" previously indicated the importance of concentrating on rising and falling tones

Edited January 12, 2010 by Parvis

[Ratsima]

I finally managed to get the ALG Thai videos on YouTube to play. I had to use a proxy server in the US to get them though. (I don't think this is illegal as I'm not using the proxy to get around a government block, just to get around an ISP mess-up.)

Anyway, they look good. Probably just what I need and at about my level. Thanks to SoftWater for the tip.

[dptbkk]

This evening my wife and her daughter were trying to teach me the difference between harvest (เกี่ยว), green (เขียว) and chew (เคี้ยว).

I'm sorry, but they all sound the same to me. Yeah, I can look at the spelling and see that they are pronounced differently, but when the sound comes into my brain they are identical.

How can I ever learn to speak or understand Thai when three words that are so different sound exactly the same to me?

IMHO learning to read is essential. At least Thai is vowels and consonants, with tone dictated by rules / tonal markers etc. Once you've learnt the alphabet, the squiggles and the rules then at least you know how you should be pronouncing a word - even if you can't get your tongue around the pronunciation. Transliteration is never going to be as helpful. The example posted by Ratsima is a good one: at least if you can read Thai, then you know that the first word begins with a hard 'g' and is a low tone, the second is a 'k' and rising tone and the last word is 'k' but high tone.

The other good thing about learning to read is that it gives you a real sense of achievement, even if you can't yet speak very well. On the practical side of things, it also allows you to read menus in restaurants, labels on packets or whatever, so you can always be picking up vocab. Any word you don't know, you can at least write down and look up later.

Get a good dictionary. My suggestion would be the Thai-English Student's Dictionary compiled by Mary Haas (Stanford University Press).

It also helped me to live somewhere, for a while, where I had to use Thai most of the time (Korat in 1989). I did a total of around 120 hours of formal lessons (reading/writing/speaking) and that was it. My Thai was really pretty good after a year or so.

By contrast, I've studied Mandarin in the classroom for around 300 hours yet still only have the most basic conversational ability. Why? I've never lived in China or Taiwan, and I gave up on learning to read because it is so much harder (for me, at least) than learning to read Thai.

Good luck.