More Tuk-tuk Trouble In Phuket

[Thai at Heart]

In my mind, there are basically two important issues here: 

1. the tuk-tuk driver resorted to violence to solve a problem - I believe that most people would agree that he was wrong and should be held responsible for his actions.

2. The tourist agreed to a fare and then attempted to renegotiate the fare after her realized that it was excessive - Is it fair and/or proper to overcharge someone due to their lack of knowledge of local market prices?  

I once spoke to a restaurant owner in Phuket town which catered to busloads of Japanese tourists. He used two menus (one in Thai and one in English language). Prices on the English menu were 200% that of the Thai menu. The owner maintained that there was no problem in charging the tourists double price because they ordered from the English menu and by doing so accepted the inflated prices. The owner had no problems whatsoever with the ethical considerations of his operation. This seems to be the mindset of many local businessmen, including the tuk-tuk drivers. 

Perhaps I'm just old-fashioned but I was raised to believe that overcharging a person was taking unfair advantage and was considered a undesirable conduct to say the least, regardless of the fact that he might have been unfamiliar with local conditions.  

The same situation applies to tuk-tuks and taxis in Phuket but is made even worse due to the fact that competition has been essentially eliminated. Tourists have limited options and are forced in some cases to paying fares which have no connection with market-driven prices. A free market system for transportation in Phuket would eliminate what is no more than an officially-condoned transportation scam.  

Gouging your most profitable customers probably isn't the best long term policy for growth. Not everyone is as naive as the sellers believe. They believe they are being crafty, in reality they are slowly killing their own businesses. 10 years from now when total tourist arrivals to the main resorts are below today maybe the TAT and the powers that be in these resorts will remember stories like this.

This attitude of discriminatory pricing if nothing else leaves a bad taste in tourists mouths. Just see the reaction from 2 events where foreigners have tried to "buck" the market. One busted arm and one broken nose. Although don't forget that the government itself indulges in this very practice in national parks. I was only aware about the issue through spending time in the country, but still today there are probably many tourists who are over charged to enter national parks. The bloody aquarium blatently advertises the fact in Emporium about discriminatory pricing.

So stories such as these get around the world very quickly these days via the internet. Tomorrow morning, a few tourists will pick up the Gazette or the Nation/Post and read this story and give the tuk-tuks a wide berth. These stories will linger around on the internet for a while, and I reckon a lot of tourists will have increased wariness about tuktuk drivers and in a few months their takings will be down. I mean could you imagine being told not to use the iconic tuktuks of Thailand for fear at least of being ripped off, at worst getting beaten up. "Welcome to your room sir, please don't forget to collect your complimentary nuckle duster to help you get around the local town".

We can say that the drivers operated in the free market. Well, in any market, knowledge is the true power and exposing these frauds is the best way to start rectifying this market imbalance.

[alyx]

Not defending the actions of the driver by any means but didn't the guy agree to 150 then offer 100. Probably not a good idea in any foreign country over 50 baht.

I should add it is not a good idea in any country to discuss furthermore an already negociated fare (or else) after the deal is done

I have often not been happy with what I had got for what I had accepted to pay but that is life: you learn from your experiences

And I did learn to the point that when I settle for a service (shop, restaurant -brunch etc.. - negociated or fixed price) I do pay before.

It did serve me well a couple of weeks ago, when I went for a massage in a shop advertising discounts as it had just opened.

A big banner was advertising for a 550 Baht package. I entered, I stated what I wanted and handed over a 1,000 Baht banknote. It took the guy something like 10 minutes to find the change (I think that was genuine): he gave me back 250 Baht. I asked for the complement showing the price advertised

5 minutes later, after a staff meeting in front of the banner, I decided to leave (I had taken back my note): the guy told me that it was a misprint (well there were five or six packages all ranging from 3 to 500 Baht so....)

Apart from the fact the move was not commercial, can you imagine what would have happened if I had had that massage prior to paying?. (As I am not the peaceful type when I deem that I am right - I know it is not nice but can't help it)

And this was in Thai....

So I condemn the fighting, of course, (actually not sure who started it) but I do feel that the tourist should not have acted this way. Unfortunately we will never know what has exactly happened

I do stress that the use of force is not a justified tool of persuasion

[Millard]

Some friends of mine have never been to Thailand and asked for recommendations on where to go. I told them that I'd heard Phuket was nice. After reading all that I have on Thaivisa, I can no longer suggest Phuket to anyone.

[torrenova]

Again we have posters here backing the tuk tuk guy and saying how stupid the tourist was and that everything is just as the tuk tuk guy has described it. Incredible and disgraceful.

What will it need ? a few tourists murdered by tuk tuk drivers ? babies hurled under the wheels of their brethren ? Come one, these thugs are out of control and should be put down, nevermind chastised. Violence against even the weakest, in fact, most often against the weakest, backed up with their cowardly friends who then try and say that the tourist was all on the wrong. No, it is not defensible.

It doesn't matter whether this foreigner was looking to renegotiate. Anyone who suggests it does should be ashamed. Caught in a scam perhaps but don't defend the violence.

The OP may have been wrong to back out of a negotiated fare, if that is what happened but the actions of the tuk tuk scum cannot be defended and shame on you that seek to do so.

[hervelon]

Not defending the actions of the driver by any means but didn't the guy agree to 150 then offer 100. Probably not a good idea in any foreign country over 50 baht.

I'd have to agree here. Anwar and the driver agreed to 150 baht for the ride, and then after services were rendered, Anwar wanted to offer less. And if it's true that he escalated the situation further by being rude and kicking the driver, then I'm not surprised at the eventual outcome.

I'm sort of happy that people like Anwar won't be returning to Thailand for their holidays.

Not defending the attacker by any means...but over 50bahts not a good idea to argue in a foreign country! just part of the learning curve and you should accept that...especially since 150bahts fare was agrred before...

[britadders28]

Some friends of mine have never been to Thailand and asked for recommendations on where to go. I told them that I'd heard Phuket was nice. After reading all that I have on Thaivisa, I can no longer suggest Phuket to anyone.

Take at look at whats happened at bangkok airport and bangkok, hua hin and everywhere else I would suggest going to another country!!!

[Thai at Heart]

Some friends of mine have never been to Thailand and asked for recommendations on where to go. I told them that I'd heard Phuket was nice. After reading all that I have on Thaivisa, I can no longer suggest Phuket to anyone.

And one by one, Thailand slowly kills it's own tourist industry.

I expect lonely planet and just about any other tourism guide will have warnings about tuktuks in the next few months. Stories like this travel far too quickly.

[britadders28]

Some friends of mine have never been to Thailand and asked for recommendations on where to go. I told them that I'd heard Phuket was nice. After reading all that I have on Thaivisa, I can no longer suggest Phuket to anyone.

And one by one, Thailand slowly kills it's own tourist industry.

I expect lonely planet and just about any other tourism guide will have warnings about tuktuks in the next few months. Stories like this travel far too quickly.

IN MY VIEW NOT QUICK ENOUGH!!! I'm afraid this is the only way thais will understand, we have been fighting to stop animal cruelty in thailand for years, its a joke considering they call themselves buddhists, the only way to stop them is too warn tourists not to go to these monkey schools, zoos , elephant rides etc... PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS, SAME WITH TUK TUKS, TAXIS, KING POWER, HOTELS ETC.....

Cant imagine the problems people like UN etc.. have re HUMAN RIGHTS in thailand , its like talking to 4 year old or an alien from another planet and they call us aliens

[delmersomsri]

Mr Anwar made a verbal contract and should of honored it and chalked it up as "lesson well learned". First mistake was not asking how far his new hotel was before seeking transportation. Second he tried to renig on his verbal contract. Third mistake is that he forgot con men don't work alone. It's unfortunate as this is just another blight on the tourism picture. Bad people are everywhere! I laugh now at an experience in Detroit Michigan. Lesson well learned there.

[Jingthing]

I think there is a consensus here. Spreading the bad news about the real Phuket globally is the only realistic chance of anything EVER changing for the better. Threaten the gravy train and then watch them sweat. Will it happen? Doubtful.

[stuandchris]

This is a depressing thread, the little Thailanders who have been here for years sneering at the less fortunate who are on holiday and think they should know that these people are tw##s.

Harping on that this happens all over the world, yes it does but the taxi drivers around the world don't pretend to own the roads and kick sh#t out of anyone that disagrees with them.

This is meant to be Thailands premier resort and activley encourages 'High end' tourists and expats whilst allowing this scum to prey on the uneducated in 'Thai ways'

Perhaps the Thai Gov should try to educate the people that we are not all dicks and if the attitude that we are farang and have a magic money tree does not change then the money tree will go somewhere else

[sharecropper]

I think there is a consensus here. Spreading the bad news about the real Phuket globally is the only realistic chance of anything EVER changing for the better. Threaten the gravy train and then watch them sweat. Will it happen? Doubtful.

Phuket is starting to make Pattaya's Baht Bus mafia look positively philanthopic.

[Jonathanpattaya]

Not defending the actions of the driver by any means but didn't the guy agree to 150 then offer 100. Probably not a good idea in any foreign country over 50 baht.

I'd have to agree here. Anwar and the driver agreed to 150 baht for the ride, and then after services were rendered, Anwar wanted to offer less. And if it's true that he escalated the situation further by being rude and kicking the driver, then I'm not surprised at the eventual outcome.

I'm sort of happy that people like Anwar won't be returning to Thailand for their holidays.

Think you missed the point here Bubba.

The 150 baht price was obviously a Farang Rip off price in the first place,so what was Mr Anwar supposed to do smile and say "thanks a lot"

Those who dont complain are making fair play difficult for everyone of us.

Mr Anwar also said he might return to Krabi.

One should not be assaulted for a financial dispute,the Tourist Police could have been consulted.

My sentiments exactly.

Clearly a rip off which does not justify an assault.

[Brewsta]

This is a depressing thread, the little Thailanders who have been here for years sneering at the less fortunate who are on holiday and think they should know that these people are tw##s.

Harping on that this happens all over the world, yes it does but the taxi drivers around the world don't pretend to own the roads and kick sh#t out of anyone that disagrees with them.

This is meant to be Thailands premier resort and activley encourages 'High end' tourists and expats whilst allowing this scum to prey on the uneducated in 'Thai ways'

Perhaps the Thai Gov should try to educate the people that we are not all dicks and if the attitude that we are farang and have a magic money tree does not change then the money tree will go somewhere else

totally agree - succint and sooooo true.

[ttthailand]

The guy should have paid 150 baht and been on his way. Don't protest over a buck and a half. One thing I've learned in foreign countries is to pick your battles. Are the tuk tuk drivers in Phuket rude? Yes. Are they thugs? Yes. Is there another way to get around in Phuket if you don't have a car or motorbike? No. So negotiate the fare and pay what you agreed to. Case closed.

Case closed....perhaps that's why it is totally out of control. No one wants to stand up to these scum bags. Just let it go on and on and on and on...... rip people off, do as they wish. Let them run down the city then the country. Some people have a few balls and don't hide and hope all changes. This world for sure was not changed by people who think like you do ! I am not sure what the true answer is but something needs to be done. I would not have paid 150 baht for a one minute trip also. I would have just called the police right then and there. Who knows what this guy said if anything. It does not permit the treatment he received.

Time to protest, boycott or something...when is enough enough ?

[Thai at Heart]

Some friends of mine have never been to Thailand and asked for recommendations on where to go. I told them that I'd heard Phuket was nice. After reading all that I have on Thaivisa, I can no longer suggest Phuket to anyone.

And one by one, Thailand slowly kills it's own tourist industry.

I expect lonely planet and just about any other tourism guide will have warnings about tuktuks in the next few months. Stories like this travel far too quickly.

IN MY VIEW NOT QUICK ENOUGH!!! I'm afraid this is the only way thais will understand, we have been fighting to stop animal cruelty in thailand for years, its a joke considering they call themselves buddhists, the only way to stop them is too warn tourists not to go to these monkey schools, zoos , elephant rides etc... PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS, SAME WITH TUK TUKS, TAXIS, KING POWER, HOTELS ETC.....

Cant imagine the problems people like UN etc.. have re HUMAN RIGHTS in thailand , its like talking to 4 year old or an alien from another planet and they call us aliens

I really think that the chances that tourism numbers will continue this year on year rise as has been seen in Thailand through the early 00's are pretty slim. Don't forget 97 gave Thailand a massive boost for tourism. Admittedly some of the issue is economic, and people have poo-pooed the effect of the airport last year, but tourism is a fickle business and Thailand doesn't deliver what it says on the can anymore.

It isn't even as though it is that significant an industry anyway. 16 mn per year always surprises me as being a relatively small number, but it is concentrated into the islands so they have a lot to lose if the industry gets screwed up. If there are about 4mn tourist visitors to Phuket per year, could the majority of tourism related businesses survive if this number reduced by 25% this year and stayed at that level for the next few years? That reduction might be an optimistic forecast. Is the tourism industry coming up with anything significant to even maintain their numbers? Nope. Same old problems, same old excuses with an added bit of negative publicity monthly seems to be TAT's plan.

I really do not see the overwhelming attraction that is going to drag more and more people to Thailand and if nothing else, the numbers will probably be going down for the next few years.

Do we honestly believe that Thailand will still be attracting millions of sex tourists a year in 20 years time? Presumably someone has to plan for the day that it disappears or is Thailand stuck in groundhog day forever? I mean Pattaya would be a much nicer place without all the s**t there, but then without it, what is Pattaya?

[ManInSurat]

I'm seriously, seriously concerned by the plethora of people on this thread who are condoning the violence exhibited by the driver, in this instance, towards his passenger.

Simply saying "Well I don't agree with the beating he gave the man, BUT he agreed to the fare and did not pay the full amount..." or whichever variation you choose, does not alter the fact that YOU ARE condoning violence.

It's like when someone says "No offense, but..." then they offend you! The word BUT is not a get-out clause. Your perception of said situation is very obvious.

The man has a RIGHT to query his fare.

The driver in question has been refused bail which given the crime committed and who he works for - is extremely surprising. That speaks volumes. I find it hard to believe, knowing this, that the passenger even raised his voice in anger, let alone kicked him. I bet the source of this information was reliable.

Considering the fact that this is the second incident to come to light in a very short time-frame, the first being a unprovoked attack on elderly people in front of their family, is enough to convince me that anyone is at potential risk when taking a tuk-tuk ride in Phuket should they not play by the organized thuggery rules. No one should have to be subject to that.

I'm amazed by the support for the driver in this case (read between your lines some of you!) If you were subject to a beating at the hands of a Thai thug similarly to this, I'm sure you'd be singing a very different song.

As far as finding a solution is concerned for the problem, there isn't one. This is Thailand, but I won't go into that now. I'm sure you know what I mean.

I've lived in Thailand for a LONG time and have never found the want to go to HKT. These episodes simply help vindicate my decision. There are so many places that you can visit here that do not have this kind of organized thuggery that offer exactly the same things as HKT does and are less crowded, less gaudy and definitely cheaper. Inform yourselves.

[Brewsta]

Some friends of mine have never been to Thailand and asked for recommendations on where to go. I told them that I'd heard Phuket was nice. After reading all that I have on Thaivisa, I can no longer suggest Phuket to anyone.

And one by one, Thailand slowly kills it's own tourist industry.

I expect lonely planet and just about any other tourism guide will have warnings about tuktuks in the next few months. Stories like this travel far too quickly.

IN MY VIEW NOT QUICK ENOUGH!!! I'm afraid this is the only way thais will understand, we have been fighting to stop animal cruelty in thailand for years, its a joke considering they call themselves buddhists, the only way to stop them is too warn tourists not to go to these monkey schools, zoos , elephant rides etc... PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS, SAME WITH TUK TUKS, TAXIS, KING POWER, HOTELS ETC.....

Cant imagine the problems people like UN etc.. have re HUMAN RIGHTS in thailand , its like talking to 4 year old or an alien from another planet and they call us aliens

I really think that the chances that tourism numbers will continue this year on year rise as has been seen in Thailand through the early 00's are pretty slim. Don't forget 97 gave Thailand a massive boost for tourism. Admittedly some of the issue is economic, and people have poo-pooed the effect of the airport last year, but tourism is a fickle business and Thailand doesn't deliver what it says on the can anymore.

It isn't even as though it is that significant an industry anyway. 16 mn per year always surprises me as being a relatively small number, but it is concentrated into the islands so they have a lot to lose if the industry gets screwed up. If there are about 4mn tourist visitors to Phuket per year, could the majority of tourism related businesses survive if this number reduced by 25% this year and stayed at that level for the next few years? That reduction might be an optimistic forecast. Is the tourism industry coming up with anything significant to even maintain their numbers? Nope. Same old problems, same old excuses with an added bit of negative publicity monthly seems to be TAT's plan.

I really do not see the overwhelming attraction that is going to drag more and more people to Thailand and if nothing else, the numbers will probably be going down for the next few years.

Do we honestly believe that Thailand will still be attracting millions of sex tourists a year in 20 years time? Presumably someone has to plan for the day that it disappears or is Thailand stuck in groundhog day forever? I mean Pattaya would be a much nicer place without all the s**t there, but then without it, what is Pattaya?

My first visit to Thailand (LOS) 25 years ago was (naturally) magical, but I genuinely recall a more pleasant Thailand - it was really the Land of Smiles.

Living here full-time'ish for the last 10 years has not changed my mind about my love for the country, but there seems to be a heck of a mercenary attitude by many 'tourist industry' Thais and the resulting simmering resentment by lots more foreign residents and holiday visitors seems to be growing each year.

Brewsta

[mojaco]

I am amazed at the lack of many posters' clarity regarding legal understanding of severity concerning business disputes (a civil judgment-penalty) vs. criminal assault (which could have resulted in loss of eyesight or even death if one of the tourists had a weak heart.)

The 50 Baht dispute is just a civil issue; the assault is a serious criminal offense. No comparison, and could have resulted in another "suicide" event.

Thailand MUST deal harshly with these serious, deadly assaults. Quit defending use of criminal force for civil issues!!!

Edited January 6, 2010 by mojaco

[Jingthing]

Of course you have the human right to complain if you strongly feel you have been cheated by a business, even AFTER you have previously agreed to a price. The valid reasons are if the goods or services do not meet the expectations of what you THOUGHT you were agreeing upon.

There are thousand of examples and I bet you most of you have done exactly that in numerous situations. I will give a food example. An absurd one but really is it more absurd than the charge of this tourist for a one minute ride? You go to a fancy Italian restaurant. The spaghetti bolognese is 500 baht. What comes to your table? Chef Boyardi CANNED spaghetti. You don't have to see the can, you can taste the can. When you ordered you agreed by an implied contract to pay 500 for your pasta meal. There was an implied expectation in a fancy restaurant that you would be getting a high quality product.

Now tell me with a straight face how many of you would actually pay that without first giving some major pushback. I don't respect people who don't stand up for their consumer rights when they are blatantly abused.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[JohnIrish]

Wow... I am totally shocked after reading this ...

It sounds like most of the tuk tuk "experts' on this forum have never been to Thailand!

To lie is to state something that one knows to be false with the intention that a person will take it for the truth

Let me help you "experts" and all those that will travel to Thailand

Rule # 1 Tuk Tuks will Cheat and Lie

Rule # 2 See Rule # 1

[tropo]

Phuket is a major international tourist destination. For now. Transport for tourists needs to be REGULATED by law.

You've hit the nail on the head. Public transport has to regulated by law and enforced by police. There's no other way.

At the end of the day the local council is responsible and should take full blame for such incidents because they are providing the free-for-all environment in which these scum can flourish.

Edited January 6, 2010 by tropo

[Thai at Heart]

My first visit to Thailand (LOS) 25 years ago was (naturally) magical, but I genuinely recall a more pleasant Thailand - it was really the Land of Smiles.

Living here full-time'ish for the last 10 years has not changed my mind about my love for the country, but there seems to be a heck of a mercenary attitude by many 'tourist industry' Thais and the resulting simmering resentment by lots more foreign residents and holiday visitors seems to be growing each year.

Brewsta

I tend to think so too. It maybe that as I have spent more time here (18 years now), learnt the language and apparently put down roots here, times did seem more laid back and people more friendly. Rose tinted specs are probably to blame. The most dangerous question one should learn to avoid in anything relating to Thailand is "Why?". It is the road to unstoppable cynicism.

Building a truly world class tourism business on 3rd world wages and rampant corruption is probably impossible. It isn't as though Thailand has ever done "competition" in anything it does business wise. Business people here don't quite seem to understand how to compete on a global scale. Sometimes it takes going the extra mile,and even a bit of sacrifice which seems a step too far these days.

I wouldn't expect the tourism industry here to understand that they are slowly handing their business to others on a platter.

[way2muchcoffee]

This latest incident in Phuket seems somehow indicative of the way the world has turned. Or maybe that's just how it's always been.

Canadian feels ripped off. Probably mouths off a bit. Stupidly, and probably arrogantly and self-righteously refuses to pay agreed upon price. Thai, somewhat ironically, feels cheated, but even worse can't stand the sting of his lost face. Violence ensues. Everyone loses.

A typical tourist family of 3 or 4 spends maybe 10-20,000 bt per day including hotels and stays maybe 5-10 days. How many families won't go to Phuket this year after reading about both the Canadian and Frenchman? And then there are the jet skis, the political situation, civil unrest, extremist violence in the south.

Very depressing thread.

[MartinBKK]

The guy should have paid 150 baht and been on his way. Don't protest over a buck and a half. One thing I've learned in foreign countries is to pick your battles. Are the tuk tuk drivers in Phuket rude? Yes. Are they thugs? Yes. Is there another way to get around in Phuket if you don't have a car or motorbike? No. So negotiate the fare and pay what you agreed to. Case closed.

You don't have a clue what this is about do you? It's not about a 50 baht fare dispute, it's about:

1. How the tuk-tuk drivers resort to extreme violence at the drop of a hat.

2. How ridiculously overpriced the tuk-tuks are.

+1 - these constant incidents put me off visiting certain areas of Thailand

[tropo]

maybe i should had said walk away from payment .

-- tell me if you are a Taxi driver in your country ,, and a thai . took your taxi .. and refuse to pay full fare as agree between you .

what would you advice . or what would you had done .

-------

and if you are in such a problem what would you had done .

-------

o

If I was a taxi driver in my own country and person refused to pay the full fare I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't be assaulting the passenger and sending him to hospital.

I've been in the passenger transport business and sometimes it does happen. There's not much you can do except make a report. It's one of the risks of running a pay after transport service. The risk of a tuk-tuk driver not getting the full payment from a tourist is extremely small...far smaller than back in my home country. It was probably the only 50 baht that that particular tuk-tuk driver in Phuket lost in the last 6 months.

[surangw]

Just once I would love to see those drivers try that on some bad ass and get their arms broken, not able to drive or work for 6 weeks.

Why are there no vigilante falang here? The time is now!

sounds good, but wAAAY to many can show up instantly to settle things

[busman05]

In the good old USA all cab's have a min. charge. I think this sounds about fair.

[tropo]

. How many families won't go to Phuket this year after reading about both the Canadian and Frenchman? And then there are the jet skis, the political situation, civil unrest, extremist violence in the south.

I've never been to Phuket (live in Pattaya), but I can tell you that after reading so many threads about scum tuk-tuk drivers and jet ski operators there I'm not in a hurry to go there. An Australian friend is coming over in 2 weeks and asked if I would like to accompany him to Phuket. I passed and recommended he pass too.

Threads like these do have a major impact on tourism. Anyone googling "tuk-tuk Phuket" could end up on this thread.

If this incident happened to me it would have ended up much worse. For starters the tuk-tuk driver and his friend would probably have been the ones in hospital while I was being charged for assault at the police station.

[amatore]

I thought Phuket was supposed to be full of warm and kind hearted locals who got huge pleasure out of serving the local tourist throng.Big spending tourists in grossly over priced third world resorts like Phuket and greedy'importe locals dont mix!!! The tuk tuk situation will never get better because why should it???

Because if it does not,there are other places where people can go to. A few years ago, Thailand was the land o smiles. Now it is the land of ripp-offs. I was in Phuket a few years ago and a tuk-tuk driver took me for 100 metres and charged me 200 baht. When I questioned his price he got aggressive. 200 baht for me is not even a packet of cigs in my country but is not the money that matters;is the lack of respect. Now I never take tuk-tuk, I hire a motorbike which in the end is cheaper. I cannot hate Thailand for what happens but let's see what happens to the tourism industry if things don't change.