Should An Ex-bar Girl Hide Her Past...

[leftcross]

dont see any reason why would would mention it. also BG's are not a seperate social category so dont know why many on here are assuming that there is a big line drawn around them that everyone can see.

how about the department store girls who go to work in a massage parlour at the end of the day? plenty of grey areas where sex is sold and never mentioned. not just ''farm'' girls either......many ladies like shiny new toys like mobile phones and designer clothes.....

i would think there a lot of women who have been involved in this, but keeping face is all that matters so no need to ever mention it to an employer.

[anonymouse]

This is Thailand for godsake nobody tells the truth

Tatoo's don't mean a thing these days, a couple of years ago when I still had a business my twentysomething Thai lady account leant over and looking down her blouse as you do in these situations I noticed a large tattoo on her right breast

Just make up some story about her working as a waitress in her home town or something nobody will bother checking up.

[bellste]

No woman get a job for my wife's company, if they have visible tattoo. Because she think she know what they have done before, and tattoos looks ugly.

Bar-girls normally don't stay long in their jobs, and they normally don't have very much skills. After a few weeks, they just quit for no reason.

They are not attractive in the ordinary labour market. Disorganized she call them.

Edited January 10, 2010 by bellste

[Nio]

Interesting post.

As a business owner, hiring someone means filling a need in the company

That person has to have the necessary skills to perform the job

So in her case she may be overcome with fear of not knowing, or simply not have the skills to do anything

Putting her around other farangs I think is not a good idea because easy money can be more tempting than working your tail off

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

[greytown]

how about the department store girls who go to work in a massage parlour at the end of the day?

Would you care to speculate how common this might be? Regular shop girl by day. Massage girl by night?

[ProfessorFart]

The interesting thing here is how many high horse jumping people have classed her as 'ignorant' or 'stupid' when the OP has stated she is neither.

Read before you preach or you'll wind up with all the knowledge and insight of Stickman.

In my experience ladies of the night are seldom neither ignorant nor stupid. Indeed they are often far more commercially astute than many a 'graduate' I have employed in the past. It's just the mores of this lame society which dictate but I have defied them in the past and will again, and it a fool whom lives by these mores.

Edited January 10, 2010 by ProfessorFart

[schmutzie]

Thank you for all the posts. Some are a little harsh, but that was to be expected. My original posting was simply provoked by thinking a lot about this, as in "what the hel_l can we do, where can we start...". Seeing the job ad brought up the dilemma, regardless if that's the job she'll go for or not.

As for education, she's now trying to finish her high school degree, of which she's only missing 6 months. There's a fast track course to do this. I'm trying to encourage her to take it a lot more seriously than her fellow students.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to her. I dropped out of school myself at the same age as her. Never graduated. It's just that coming from a privileged background, as in a welfare state, I had the opportunity to wobble about for many a year. I then started from the bottom in a profession, taught myself, learned on the job, and now have a professional background, that affords me to have a decent life if I want it.

I've never really had to write a CV. I'm not even sure what it would look like. And there'd be plenty of odd gaps...I've started a degree a few years back, which I enjoy. What's going to come out of it, I don't know. Again, it's a position of luxury.

My girlfriend is years away from the point where I made the realisation that anything can be achieved if you really desire it. It's not something I can just impart on her, because it's a kind of maturity and confidence that is only accumulated over time. She has it all, she just has to realise it.

Back to the point being discussed, I was simply arguing with myself whether there was any situation where an otherwise "stigmatised" past could be turned into something useful. Having thought about it whilst reading the comments here, I think that presently, probably not,. Especially as she is too aware of the stigma herself. And I think it's actually beyond being a "Thai thing". Sex work is, for lack of a better word, a taboo, which just raises too many emotions.

[Heng]

They can smell a bar girl a mile off.

It seems the only folks that cannot tend to arrive here by plane.

How do 'they' know? Tattoos are a give away but what are the other tells?

The main issue is the few degrees of separation and relative cohesiveness of social groups in local society. There seems to always be someone who knows. Even for folks who are overseas for extended periods, they'll always be someone who will know that you didn't really attend whatever university or work whatever job you made up as your cover. Locally, it's even easier because we all have reunions and social groups for every single job we've had, not to mention just about each class since kindergarten. And of course, the person in question's family almost always knows, and that's another few dozen folks who probably all won't keep quiet either.

It goes the same if you were to try to keep secret the fact that you were once an electrician, used to work as a mechanic, etc. The whole system seems to be built around maintaining a hierarchy and there's not much of a way around it.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Heng

[hhgz]

"t goes the same if you were to try to keep secret the fact that you were once an electrician, used to work as a mechanic..."

You're probably the only person who could equate "working as a prostitute" with "working as an electrician or mechanic".

[torrenova]

Well, I've had relationships with girls from outside and from within the P4P sector and I've employed them in the P4P sector and out of it. If you are in the P4P sector, then generally, it is better that they know the score. Often regular girls are excited about it but want it all on their terms, which are often way different from your as a boss. In a regular business, you can often spot them a mile off as stated. Even when not on duty.

Very few can put together a wardrobe and their choice of clothes is often with no sense of where it may or may not be appropriate. This is largely dictated by access only to the market, with limited cash and wanting most clothes to appear attractive, often revealing. Those sorts of looks do not translate well to a business environment.

Attitudes to money, particularly the easy come, easy go attitude of bar girls, too much emphasis on a top end mobile phone for instance, nothing ever saved for tomorrow, disregard for small amounts of money, some false sense of superiority in many cases as they believe their earning power commands respect. As a hooker perhaps, not on civvy street it does not.

If she has all the lovely bar girl adornments of metal through various parts of the head and vulgar tattoos on her breasts or other exposed parts, then she is unfortunately, indelibly tarnished as a hooker, whether past or present, it matters not.

Some facts have to be faced. She is not going to get a job on reception of the Marriott. If she goes to school then it may help but some degree courses are not worth the paper they are written on. Universities exist as a business and they will provide any course you want if people will pay for it. Decent employers know that so a course to better herself is ok, doing it to put on a CV is often a waste of time.

Of course, if she has been on the game for a long time, then it is harder to explain the missing years. Even harder is if you need to provide references though a friend with a brain (hard to find) can often provide a verbal reference, maybe a written one if someone guides them through it.

You have to be realistic and it just might be that jobs where she would need a CV are jobs she is not qualified to do. Perhaps her own business would be a better idea. Anyone can get a factory job so I don't suppose you are thinking at that level.

Another poster mentioned the perceived risks to a business hiring an ex hooker. Very true. What qualities do they have ? Well, they lie as a matter of course, they cheat, often they steal in one way or another, they are not reliable, they nearly always have money problems, they often have a family hounding them to solve financial problems, they are often lazy, they chose to sell their bodies rather than work for an average wage. Not one of those "qualities" is anything you want near your business.

In the job you want her to apply for, what are the qualities they are looking for. Well, reliability, honesty, language skills, aptitude and attitude are key and some experience following. I would quite happily give an ex member of staff a glowing reference as a cashier or waiting staff, whether they were or not. Subject to they not being on bad terms with me. I'd put it in writing as well, so would my other half as her Thai boss.

Helping family, market stalls, maybe cashier at some business, ad hoc wedding and party catering for the village head.

There is no need to explain voids as anything other than helping family and the above temp jobs. Meeting you, maybe doing some course, even a computer course at home, learning English, stuff like that. She can't deal with complicated and Thais cannot lie to save themselves. They will know or guess she was a bar girl and she cannot hide it, at least in the short term.

Fast forward a few years if she had been educated to feel comfortable sitting in the Marriott and ordering drinks at Bt500 a pop. You have money and she has been groomed to know how to put together a good wardrobe. Learned elegance can hide the past but only if they are shown. Just chucking money at a girl and she will just look like a hooker with money in the bank and that is ok in many Asian societies.

I'd make up a simple CV and let them think what they want. You really need to be able to learn though should she be rejected so you can adapt your CV to suit for the next job. I find Thais don't seem able to "learn" that very well. All down to that crap fate and resignation they believe in.

Best of luck, it is not easy.

[a2396]

I am surprised that she has any inclination to work. Most I have encountered figure that once they are the GF of a Farang, work is on improbable option. You mean you don't provide here a monthly salary? I am sure she could "fudge" a resume to camouflage her past & she would not loose sleep over it. If she is a former bar girl, I would presume she has some personality suitable enough for restaurant work.

[a2396]

Interesting post.

As a business owner, hiring someone means filling a need in the company

That person has to have the necessary skills to perform the job

So in her case she may be overcome with fear of not knowing, or simply not have the skills to do anything

Putting her around other farangs I think is not a good idea because easy money can be more tempting than working your tail off

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

[Ijustwannateach]

In response to the OP's question: ummm... yeeeeesss? (was it supposed to be a trick question?) Even if the prospective employer knows the score, it's better if neither he or she mentions the spotty past- I agree with the other posters who recommend emphasizing the positive.

Getting the tattoos removed may also help depending on position. But having behaviour and values- not to mention language- picked up from association with other 'normal' girls is hard to fake- and usually takes years at least. Also, it's quite easy to spot someone who has learned to speak English formally and someone who, well.... hasn't.

[bdenner]

As soon as we settled TW went back to school and studied part time for 4 years. Into her 3rd year she was employed part time by our local medical clinic as an administrator and health inspector. Shortly after graduating see was appointed to the assistant Puya Baan position and is very well respected.

So what I'm saying is that anything is possible with a little work. There is absolutely NO stigma attached to her past (never had a tattoo).

[PattayaParent]

Why not get her into one of those adult education classes to study for taking her high school leaving certificate?

[Beardog]

Interesting post.

As a business owner, hiring someone means filling a need in the company

That person has to have the necessary skills to perform the job

So in her case she may be overcome with fear of not knowing, or simply not have the skills to do anything

Putting her around other farangs I think is not a good idea because easy money can be more tempting than working your tail off

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

I was wondering the same thing a beauty salon upwards to 100,000+ even a cart type concession costs more for welding the metals to make it.

[Nio]

Interesting post.

As a business owner, hiring someone means filling a need in the company

That person has to have the necessary skills to perform the job

So in her case she may be overcome with fear of not knowing, or simply not have the skills to do anything

Putting her around other farangs I think is not a good idea because easy money can be more tempting than working your tail off

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht?

I am talking for a Thai

How many Thais do you see working for themselves?

On every corner and market in Thailand

They can set up a stall and sell clothes

Can sell food

Can sell those italian ice jobs

They can sell nam dang, coffee and all the other drinks

You might be surprised how much some of the food vendors make

We have food vendors in our village market making 2,000 thb a day

I have one lady and her husband down on the end of my Soi in a gated community that sells grilled chicken wings, somtom and other Isaan dishes set up on a corner on the sidewalk

They have made enough to have a brand new truck and a motorcycle they deliver on

Guaranteed it would be a hel_l of lot more money than working at a restaurant and if you have any pride, you reap what you sow

[dave111223]

That, and tell her to write a cover letter with the intention of provoking empathy. Be honest about her past, and explain the reasoning behind it (needed to help support family, etc.). Use the cover letter so the potential employer sees her as a human with good intentions and morals, and not just a bar girl.

Yeah because employers want to read an ex-prostitutes sob story when trying to hire new employees....

"Mumma so po, daddy never loved me..." should be the open sentence on the CV.

[berniefromny]

Sorry, but most people seem to mis a very important point. She dropped out of Highschool and failed a test on Thai business. So why o why would anybody want to hire her to RUN a bar/restaurant or any kind of business ??????

You do need to know some math, management,administration skills and so on and so one........

i didnt miss it.

maybe the exbg could take a test for construction worker. it boggles my mind how many girl thais want to do construction work.

[berniefromny]

yeah, telling your prospective employer that you have worked as a whore is sure to go over well.

That's not very nice - do you think bar-girls have sex in exchange for money?

But I agree. Off course she shouldn't tell the employer.

no no no

if i am an employer and say girl is 28. i ask what she has been doing 22-28. she say she do freelance work, i know she bg wo her saying it. this is thailand. successful thai businessman will not fall for the ole, im not bargirl trick, they seen it all.

[TheJoker12]

Besides the tattoo, its completely ridiculous that an employer is somehow going to figure out the lady was a prostitute as opposed to any of the zillion other "no skill, zero education" jobs out there. "Before I issue you your uniform and mop, I am going to check out if you really did sell shoes at JJ Market".

[t.s]

That, and tell her to write a cover letter with the intention of provoking empathy. Be honest about her past, and explain the reasoning behind it (needed to help support family, etc.). Use the cover letter so the potential employer sees her as a human with good intentions and morals, and not just a bar girl.

Yeah because employers want to read an ex-prostitutes sob story when trying to hire new employees....

"Mumma so po, daddy never loved me..." should be the open sentence on the CV.

yes, it would also be something amusing to pass around the office once she had been laughed off the premises.

[berniefromny]

Interesting post.

As a business owner, hiring someone means filling a need in the company

That person has to have the necessary skills to perform the job

So in her case she may be overcome with fear of not knowing, or simply not have the skills to do anything

Putting her around other farangs I think is not a good idea because easy money can be more tempting than working your tail off

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht?

I am talking for a Thai

How many Thais do you see working for themselves?

On every corner and market in Thailand

They can set up a stall and sell clothes

Can sell food

Can sell those italian ice jobs

They can sell nam dang, coffee and all the other drinks

You might be surprised how much some of the food vendors make

We have food vendors in our village market making 2,000 thb a day

I have one lady and her husband down on the end of my Soi in a gated community that sells grilled chicken wings, somtom and other Isaan dishes set up on a corner on the sidewalk

They have made enough to have a brand new truck and a motorcycle they deliver on

Guaranteed it would be a hel_l of lot more money than working at a restaurant and if you have any pride, you reap what you sow

i posted something similar on stickman's newsletter..

It all comes down to.. thai bargirls and freelancers would rather dance 2hours, get banged by a sweaty disgusting guy and make 1000baht(minus taxi and other stuff) then cook 3hrs, stand a stall 5hours then make 1000 to 3000 a day.

easier to close eyes and open legs than cook 2 hours then sit on a chair while talking to people.

stall workers make 900$ a month? WOT?????????????????????? SOME MAKE $2700 A MONTH? DOUBLE wot?

ACCORDING TO THIS FELLAS numbers its more lucrative to cook som toms than spreading ones som toms . do bgs know what they are missing out on......

Edited January 11, 2010 by berniefromny

[bellste]

Interesting post.

As a business owner, hiring someone means filling a need in the company

That person has to have the necessary skills to perform the job

So in her case she may be overcome with fear of not knowing, or simply not have the skills to do anything

Putting her around other farangs I think is not a good idea because easy money can be more tempting than working your tail off

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

Food trolley business. A food trolley cost about THB7.000. My neighbour is making them.

[schmutzie]

Why not get her into one of those adult education classes to study for taking her high school leaving certificate?

She's doing this.

[bellste]

Well, I've had relationships with girls from outside and from within the P4P sector and I've employed them in the P4P sector and out of it. If you are in the P4P sector, then generally, it is better that they know the score. Often regular girls are excited about it but want it all on their terms, which are often way different from your as a boss. In a regular business, you can often spot them a mile off as stated. Even when not on duty.

Very few can put together a wardrobe and their choice of clothes is often with no sense of where it may or may not be appropriate. This is largely dictated by access only to the market, with limited cash and wanting most clothes to appear attractive, often revealing. Those sorts of looks do not translate well to a business environment.

Attitudes to money, particularly the easy come, easy go attitude of bar girls, too much emphasis on a top end mobile phone for instance, nothing ever saved for tomorrow, disregard for small amounts of money, some false sense of superiority in many cases as they believe their earning power commands respect. As a hooker perhaps, not on civvy street it does not.

If she has all the lovely bar girl adornments of metal through various parts of the head and vulgar tattoos on her breasts or other exposed parts, then she is unfortunately, indelibly tarnished as a hooker, whether past or present, it matters not.

Some facts have to be faced. She is not going to get a job on reception of the Marriott. If she goes to school then it may help but some degree courses are not worth the paper they are written on. Universities exist as a business and they will provide any course you want if people will pay for it. Decent employers know that so a course to better herself is ok, doing it to put on a CV is often a waste of time.

Of course, if she has been on the game for a long time, then it is harder to explain the missing years. Even harder is if you need to provide references though a friend with a brain (hard to find) can often provide a verbal reference, maybe a written one if someone guides them through it.

You have to be realistic and it just might be that jobs where she would need a CV are jobs she is not qualified to do. Perhaps her own business would be a better idea. Anyone can get a factory job so I don't suppose you are thinking at that level.

Another poster mentioned the perceived risks to a business hiring an ex hooker. Very true. What qualities do they have ? Well, they lie as a matter of course, they cheat, often they steal in one way or another, they are not reliable, they nearly always have money problems, they often have a family hounding them to solve financial problems, they are often lazy, they chose to sell their bodies rather than work for an average wage. Not one of those "qualities" is anything you want near your business.

In the job you want her to apply for, what are the qualities they are looking for. Well, reliability, honesty, language skills, aptitude and attitude are key and some experience following. I would quite happily give an ex member of staff a glowing reference as a cashier or waiting staff, whether they were or not. Subject to they not being on bad terms with me. I'd put it in writing as well, so would my other half as her Thai boss.

Helping family, market stalls, maybe cashier at some business, ad hoc wedding and party catering for the village head.

There is no need to explain voids as anything other than helping family and the above temp jobs. Meeting you, maybe doing some course, even a computer course at home, learning English, stuff like that. She can't deal with complicated and Thais cannot lie to save themselves. They will know or guess she was a bar girl and she cannot hide it, at least in the short term.

Fast forward a few years if she had been educated to feel comfortable sitting in the Marriott and ordering drinks at Bt500 a pop. You have money and she has been groomed to know how to put together a good wardrobe. Learned elegance can hide the past but only if they are shown. Just chucking money at a girl and she will just look like a hooker with money in the bank and that is ok in many Asian societies.

I'd make up a simple CV and let them think what they want. You really need to be able to learn though should she be rejected so you can adapt your CV to suit for the next job. I find Thais don't seem able to "learn" that very well. All down to that crap fate and resignation they believe in.

Best of luck, it is not easy.

Here you have many points that are spot on the problem. Excellent comment.

She will probably have a chance in a factory or shop/market. But this girls normally quit after a few weeks. The bar is easier money. When they are getting too old, they normaly go back to the country-side and family, without having saved one THB.

[berniefromny]

are you saving money so you can subsidize her meager pay for the first few years. no gets highly paid at the beginning,

[TheJoker12]

This forum is the best place for information on how to start a business for your uneducated, unemployable Thai partner. Lots of experience in that department.

Edited January 11, 2010 by TheJoker12

[TheJoker12]

yeah, telling your prospective employer that you have worked as a whore is sure to go over well.

That's not very nice - do you think bar-girls have sex in exchange for money?

But I agree. Off course she shouldn't tell the employer.

no no no

if i am an employer and say girl is 28. i ask what she has been doing 22-28. she say she do freelance work, i know she bg wo her saying it. this is thailand. successful thai businessman will not fall for the ole, im not bargirl trick, they seen it all.

i thought you old farang think 90% of thai girls are bg's?????????????????

[Heng]

"t goes the same if you were to try to keep secret the fact that you were once an electrician, used to work as a mechanic..."

You're probably the only person who could equate "working as a prostitute" with "working as an electrician or mechanic".

I wasn't equating those various professions. I was saying that whatever your profession, it's rare that you can keep it a secret in the long term, especially one as psychologically damaging as being a bargirl. STD's, tattoos, one's resume, not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of former clients that they might run into anywhere in the world on any given day aside, they'd still have to pretty much completely remove themselves from the local social fabric, family included.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Heng