Farang Shot And Killed In C.m.

[sbk]

More than one in three officer involved shootings involve unarmed people.

Google "unarmed shot by off duty officer" ... but since the topic is the unfortunate demise of a farang here in Thaiand and does not involve any police officers other than those apprehending the shooter, it is a moot point.

My condolences to the family of the victim.

yes jd, precisely, thank you. This has nothing to do with police, since interestingly enough, the shooter was not a cop. Lets do try to keep it remotely on topic. thanks

[Ajarnmai]

I must be living in a dream world... I have driven here for 25 years, and I have never seen or experienced road rage, or ever witnessed an accident. I just do my driving and enjoy the experience

You must be living in a dream world, just last week you posted this:

A couple of years ago, during a light rain, I was driving my Pick up south of the hot springs. In a turn, I lost my traction and ended up with my truck flipping on its side... No injuries, thank god, but this is what my truck looked like..

he could have had his eyes closed at the time so didnt witness anything

What I said had to do with an accident involving someone else or two parties in an accident.

In this case, It only involved me, and I don't remember anything. First I was losing traction, then my next memory I was in my truck after everything had happened. My first and only accident in Thailand

Edited January 15, 2010 by Ajarnmai

[OOB]

More than one in three officer involved shootings involve unarmed people.

Google "unarmed shot by off duty officer" ... but since the topic is the unfortunate demise of a farang here in Thaiand and does not involve any police officers other than those apprehending the shooter, it is a moot point.

My condolences to the family of the victim.

yes jd, precisely, thank you. This has nothing to do with police, since interestingly enough, the shooter was not a cop. Lets do try to keep it remotely on topic. thanks

Remove the cop from the equation then. To assert that drive-by executions of seemingly innocent bystanders is as prevalent in the UK as it is in Thailand is complete and utter unsubstantiated rubbish. If this is 'off-topic' please feel free to delete this post along with the original nonsense assertion that similar shootings in the UK occur daily.

[likite]

I think you were right the first time when you said you were living in dream world

[getgoin]

I think what is really unfortunate here is not the anti-foreigner sentiment exhibited because that has always been around in one form or another.

When I first married my wife she lost the right to own property.

What is unfortunate is that the wonderful, friendly and safe place that Chiang Mai was is fading. This murder marks a milestone. With this murder Chiang Mai takes a turn. A brutal execution at a traffic light because the person was white.

Goodbye yellow brick road.

[ovenman]

With this murder Chiang Mai takes a turn. A brutal execution at a traffic light because the person was white.

Did I miss an article in which that particular conclusion was reached?

[Fishenough]

We've been over this ground before, I know, but please note that according to the following data, Thailand's murder rate with firearms is almost 10 times (!) that of Mexico:

Do you have any idea how many murders occur in Mexico that are never offically reported?

Having spent far more years in Mexico than Thailand, can tell you there is a difference in what makes the news in these two countries. And if half of the stories are true, there really are so many of them, Mexico would would be in the top three. What about the countries that don't make the list? Priceless already put it eloquently; a list like that could easily have been complied by a single person using Google or Wikipedia!!

Where the heck is Venezuela on that list???? I've lost friends there, and know it's been reported as having one of the highest murder rates in the world.

RIP

[jdinasia]

With this murder Chiang Mai takes a turn. A brutal execution at a traffic light because the person was white.

Did I miss an article in which that particular conclusion was reached?

I missed it too .... I think, perhaps, that well all missed that.

[femi fan]

I think what is really unfortunate here is not the anti-foreigner sentiment exhibited because that has always been around in one form or another.

When I first married my wife she lost the right to own property.

What is unfortunate is that the wonderful, friendly and safe place that Chiang Mai was is fading. This murder marks a milestone. With this murder Chiang Mai takes a turn. A brutal execution at a traffic light because the person was white.

Goodbye yellow brick road.

Heaven knows why your wife lost that right. I think you've been conned.

Chiang Mai must be one of the safest cities in the world to live in. The only real danger is on the roads, and it's unarguable that driving in thailand creates so much death and mayhem. But normally it's from careless driving and accidents, while obviously this particular incident is an example of road rage, perpetrated either by a man who thinks he's a VIP, or someone who was on yaa baa, or just a man who acted out stupid male testosterone. After all, men all over the world kill for stupid things, and hey, even whole nations like the USA and the UK enjoy farflung adventures where they kill and destroy people in the thousands.

To try and paint thailand as some kind of unique mad nasty killing nation reflects more on those who write this garbage than the thais themselves. Every nation has stupid people, usually males, who get their kicks out of dishing out violence and death. It's a male trait, not a bloody thai trait. And anglo-americans are some of the most violent of the lot. The evidence is in the movies and in their killing fields of asia, south and central america, and the middle-east.

[infernalman7]

Thailand is the third? That is something absolutely new to be. I am pretty sure it is so much more dangerous to walk around NYC at midnight than in CM.

[infernalman7]

I think what is really unfortunate here is not the anti-foreigner sentiment exhibited because that has always been around in one form or another.

When I first married my wife she lost the right to own property.

What is unfortunate is that the wonderful, friendly and safe place that Chiang Mai was is fading. This murder marks a milestone. With this murder Chiang Mai takes a turn. A brutal execution at a traffic light because the person was white.

Goodbye yellow brick road.

Heaven knows why your wife lost that right. I think you've been conned.

Chiang Mai must be one of the safest cities in the world to live in. The only real danger is on the roads, and it's unarguable that driving in thailand creates so much death and mayhem. But normally it's from careless driving and accidents, while obviously this particular incident is an example of road rage, perpetrated either by a man who thinks he's a VIP, or someone who was on yaa baa, or just a man who acted out stupid male testosterone. After all, men all over the world kill for stupid things, and hey, even whole nations like the USA and the UK enjoy farflung adventures where they kill and destroy people in the thousands.

To try and paint thailand as some kind of unique mad nasty killing nation reflects more on those who write this garbage than the thais themselves. Every nation has stupid people, usually males, who get their kicks out of dishing out violence and death. It's a male trait, not a bloody thai trait. And anglo-americans are some of the most violent of the lot. The evidence is in the movies and in their killing fields of asia, south and central america, and the middle-east.

I couldn't agree more with you.

[NaiGreg]

What is unfortunate is that the wonderful, friendly and safe place that Chiang Mai was is fading. This murder marks a milestone. With this murder Chiang Mai takes a turn. A brutal execution at a traffic light because the person was white.

Goodbye yellow brick road.

May I remind the gentleman (or woman) that the yellow brick road is in the ridiculously dangerous land of Oz. Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My! Flying monkeys and wicked witches.

Then again you may have your rainbows crossed.

I don't understand the panicky, knee-jerk reactions. For god's sake, the shooter was a known criminal, a lunatic on the fringe of society. If the shooter had been a temple abbott or a Boy Scout, I would give it a second thought.

[femi fan]

Three shootings you mention in how many years, and suddenly you paint all thais with your same broad brush. Unreal.

The two I mentioned are memorable, but they are far, far from the only egregious killings that could be listed.

Well, sticking to the topic of road rage, what happend to this german man seems to be pretty rare. In my near 20 years here this is a rather unusual story. In fact i can only really remember road rage beginning to be an issue about the turn of the century. I recall thinking that if everybody in britain drove like the thais did, the british population would take a serious nosedive. In reverse i thought at the time that if thai people succumbed to road rage like the british did, then the bangkok traffic jams would disappear rapidly.

If one wants to see roadrage on a frequent basis, just go to the anglo nations like the US, UK, Australia. Far more common than here in thailand, where the kinds of maneuvres the thais do on the roads would induce hernias in other drivers in the aforementioned countries. The thais are amazingly tolerant of being cut up by other motorists. You won't get anybody in britain shooting drivers dead however, because hardly anybody has a gun there.

Now then, why don't you add to this list of yours where farang, or indeed thais, are shot to death at intersections for driving badly, or sticking a middle finger up to other road users.

Incidentally, what a gross overreaction by the thai man who shot the german man dead. He will hopefully get justice served on him. Meanwhile an overreaction of at least the same proportions is being exhibited on this thread, including by yourself. As if thai men are unique in their ability to lose their heads and dish out violence. What a load of tosh! My experience in fact is that, loss of face or not, in general their tolerance level to provocation is far far far greater than british men.

[ChiangMaiMail]

There was apparently another shooting (Thai) at the very same junction, but going in the other direction, yesterday.

I didn't know it was a shooting. I was heading north around 6pm and the traffic was very slow. As I came across the junction heading towards Maejo, I saw a large crowd and on the other side of the road a body lying on the road. I thought it was an accident until I read jackr's post.

The worst piece of driving I have seen along that road was a farang in a SUV. He pulled out of L&H and did a u-turn to head towards the city. Both lanes were busy so he decided to drive along the 'hard shoulder' which is pretty non-existent there at over 100km/hour - I was doing 80+ on the main carriageway. Any pedestrian or motorcyclist wouldn't have had a chance. Luckily none were in his way. Of course when he reached the next set of lights which had just turned red, he jumped them. A class 1 wanke_r.

The Chiang Mai Mail can confirm there was another shooting at the very same intersection, this does not appear to be road rage but is perhaps a hit. A 37 year old hill tribe man from Chaiprakarn was shot 5 times by the pillion rider on a motorcycle.

[Tywais]

Heaven knows why your wife lost that right. I think you've been conned.

Years ago it was the law along with the wife required to take the husband's last name. Laws change, sometime actually for the better.

[femi fan]

I couldn't agree more with you.

Ah, a sane person! It is such an absurdity reading this tosh about how violent and nasty thais are. If we compare them to the likes of columbia - drug feuds and deaths commonplace; many parts of africa - gang violence and dreadful rates of murder and rape with almost non-existent means or will to record such deaths; the US and even the UK - love their wars, invade other nations and brutally kill thousands and decimate infrastructures - well, thailand is positively peaceful and benign.

These posters and people who rabidly rant on about what nasty people thais are, how their society is uniquely abnormal (heaven forbid that the US or UK society be touted as the norm we should all aspire to) and violent and blah blah blah, are simply informing their readers about themselves rather than the targets of their rantings.

What is amazing about thailand is how much it is loved by so many, yet so loathed by others. I wonder if any country manages to elicit such extremes and opposites of reactions!!

And the point above is valid too, the man who did this shooting has bad form, and does not exactly represent the typical thai person.

[femi fan]

Heaven knows why your wife lost that right. I think you've been conned.

Years ago it was the law along with the wife required to take the husband's last name. Laws change, sometime actually for the better.

yeah, i know. But the poster was either talking mistakenly about now, or being rather economical with his knowledge of current ways!

[caf]

Chiang Mai must be one of the safest cities in the world to live in.

To try and paint thailand as some kind of unique mad nasty killing nation reflects more on those who write this garbage than the thais themselves. The evidence is in the movies

But the reality, femifan, is that there were two shootings at that intersection, one on the 12th one on the 14th

Thailand has the third highest murder rate by firearms in the world, as already reported in this thread.

Whatever we like to think about living here, one thing we can not do is escape the facts.

caf

[jdinasia]

Heaven knows why your wife lost that right. I think you've been conned.

Years ago it was the law along with the wife required to take the husband's last name. Laws change, sometime actually for the better.

yeah, i know. But the poster was either talking mistakenly about now, or being rather economical with his knowledge of current ways!

When I first married my wife she lost the right to own property.

He pretty clearly is referring to a past event --- not current

Yet again this has naught to do with the topic of this thread- the unfortunate man murdered on a Chiang Mai rd.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Thailand is the third? That is something absolutely new to be. I am pretty sure it is so much more dangerous to walk around NYC at midnight than in CM.

NYC is not all of the USA. It would be very inaccurate to extropolate NYC data to the rest of the country. Compare NYC to BKK maybe. Compare CM to a comparable demographic area like Albany NY, Boise Idaho or many others.

There are a lot of similar sized cities in the US for example that have a lot less crime and danger than CM. I used to live in a Denver Colorado suburb of about 200k people(Boulder county) and maybe 3 or 4 murders for a whole year. CM has probably clipped that number in the last week.

Make a fair comparison. I don't see anyone comparing Klong Toey slums of BKK to Palm Springs California.

I am sure CM is safer than Thailand's average because about 40% of Thailand's population is in greater BKK and even most Thai's consider it not so safe in parts of bkk and/or times of day.

Would be interesting to see CM provinces numbers and compare that to data from other countries. I think it might be decent but why guess based on personal experience.

I spent my formative years in Washington DC and never saw a murder or violent crime yet during those years it was the murder capital of the country. What should I have believed? My eyes or public safety data?

[Thakkar]

I think what is really unfortunate here is not the anti-foreigner sentiment exhibited because that has always been around in one form or another.

When I first married my wife she lost the right to own property.

<snip>

Same here, but I don't see it as anti-foreigner. Rather, it was anti-woman since Thai men who married foreign women didn't face the same restriction.

Happily, the law's been rectified now.

[femi fan]

Chiang Mai must be one of the safest cities in the world to live in.

To try and paint thailand as some kind of unique mad nasty killing nation reflects more on those who write this garbage than the thais themselves. The evidence is in the movies

But the reality, femifan, is that there were two shootings at that intersection, one on the 12th one on the 14th

Thailand has the third highest murder rate by firearms in the world, as already reported in this thread.

Whatever we like to think about living here, one thing we can not do is escape the facts.

caf

Perhaps you live by different 'facts' than i do. Regardless of figures and stats and theories and beliefs and so on, i comment based on my 19 years of living in thailand, the last eight in this fair city. In that whole time i've seen one fight between thais, and i myself have never once been threatened, nor felt threatened, nor had any kind of fear whatsoever from living amongst thai people. And no, i don't spend my whole time coccooned in an appartment.

So my own facts are that this country is infinitely safer and free from fear compared to my home country, the UK, and to australia where i've spent quite some time.

Your 'fact' about thailand having the third highest murder rate is really just theory. It assumes all countries have reliable means of collecting the statistics. It also makes no mention of how these murders come about. I would, for example, suggest that not many are random, rather business or mafia-style conflicts. In addition, how can you actually personally verify the stats that you are reading are actually correct?

I'd be somewhat more careful when talking about 'facts' if i were you. In addition, the 'reality' you talk of is just your own reality. My reality will add to this the fact that the first one was not random and in fact committed by a man with form, and seemingly the second one was not random either.

I find it interesting how you can so blithely state that thailand has the third highest murder rate as being 'fact', just because it was reported this way in this thread. Facts are so easy eh!

And as for living here, i just cannot escape from my own fact that it's extremely safe, and that the only time i have to be wary in my life is when i am driving on the roads.

[Priceless]

Chiang Mai must be one of the safest cities in the world to live in.

To try and paint thailand as some kind of unique mad nasty killing nation reflects more on those who write this garbage than the thais themselves. The evidence is in the movies

But the reality, femifan, is that there were two shootings at that intersection, one on the 12th one on the 14th

Thailand has the third highest murder rate by firearms in the world, as already reported in this thread.

Whatever we like to think about living here, one thing we can not do is escape the facts.

caf

I, too, find it a bit morbid to discuss statistics on a thread concerning the death of another human being. I do however have a comparatively low level of tolerance for nonsense, even on a public forum like this.

I have not been able to find credible statistics on murder rate by firearms, but the UN publishes statistics on rates of intentional homicide. The often quoted numbers on murders by firearms in Thailand (31.2 per 100,000 people from http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...arms-per-capita ) are obviously not compatible with these, so let's lay the firearms question to rest (you cannot have four times as many murders by firearms as you have total murders).

Total intentional homicides per 100,000 inhabitants for some countries (source UNdata http://data.un.org/Data.aspx?d=UNODC&f=tableCode%3a1 where you will also find their sources):

South Africa 69

Colombia 61.1

Angola 36

Jamaica 33.7

Zimbabwe 32.9

Brazil 30.8

Russian Federation 29.7

Philippines 21

Puerto Rico 20.3

Myanmar 15.7

Mexico 10.9

Algeria 9.6

Indonesia 8.9

Malaysia 8.9

Thailand 8.2

United States of America 5.9

Vietnam 3.8

There's a host of countries (maybe 100) between South Africa and Thailand on the list that I have left out for readability reasons. When UNdata gives several figures for the same country, I've tried to stick primarily to WHO (World Health Organisation) or PAHO (Pan-American Health Organization) sources.

/ Priceless

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

Welcome back, Khun Priceless !

Just would like to "stir in" four questions into this thread :

1. what is the modal homicide in Thailand (the most common form of homicide) ?

2. how is the modal homicide committed (with what weapons or "instruments")

3. what percent of the modal homicide is committed by males, what percent committed by females ?

4. what are the most common factors among victims of the modal homicide (age, sex, income, place they live, type of work, education, etc.)

Yes, we have some thoughts, opinions about this, but we'd rather keep our human's mouth shut, for a change

best, ~o:37;

[ferd54]

So my own facts are that this country is infinitely safer and free from fear compared to my home country, the UK, and to australia where i've spent quite some time.

I find it interesting how you can so blithely state that thailand has the third highest murder rate as being 'fact', just because it was reported this way in this thread. Facts are so easy eh!

And as for living here, i just cannot escape from my own fact that it's extremely safe, and that the only time i have to be wary in my life is when i am driving on the roads.

The source of the statistic was posted with the data. When I found it, I too was surprised that Thailand’s gun murder rate is supposed to be almost 10 times that of Mexico.

Your 'facts' are of course anecdotal; you could hardly know all of the country. I lived in Thailand for 14 years and was never the victim of extreme violence, but I knew two people personally who were murdered and several who died in traffic accidents. In my previous 35 years in the US, I knew one person who was murdered, but that direct knowledge does not provide any kind of real insight.

There is a great deal of Thai-on-Thai violence that most foreigners never hear about. The 'facts', as reported by various international organizations, since I first saw them more than 10 years ago, have always placed Thailand near the very top for traffic and gun deaths. It also has a high overall murder rate, but its ranking is lower than by gun death.

The subject that emerged quickly in this thread was whether road rage existed in Thailand. I think it certainly does.

In general the combination of huge disparity in wealth and opportunity, poor law enforcement and ethics and the inability to fairly resolve conflicts makes for a volatile brew. There’s a lot of suppressed anger that can come bursting out, especially with alcohol or drugs involved; the rates of their abuse is also very high.

What I found most appalling was the driving – such a polite people on the surface turn into reckless sociopaths behind the wheel. Give them a little power and anonymity and watch ‘em rage.

A plausible scenario for the German’s death could be the guys in the Honda were driving like d*ckheads, he flipped them off, and one of them shot him to death at the traffic stop. I doubt he began randomly flipping people off. Some sort of sick cat-and-mouse road game could have preceded the shooting. All speculation, of course.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Priceless

The 8.2 value for Thailand was 2005 and the comparable 2005 US value was 5.6

If you wanted to use the 03 to 05 data for the US then wouldn't you want to average in the higher 9.0 value for Thailand 2004?

it would be more like

Thailand 8.6 (04,05 averaged) vs. US (03-05) 5.9

or

Thailand 8.2 (05) vs US (05) 5.6

Priceless is like the butcher who puts his thumb on the scale when he is weighing the cold cuts. You have to keep an eye on him.

[jackr]

femi fan; while I share your sentiments on the 'feel safe' aspect of life in Muang Thai, I think you perhaps need to wake up and smell the roses on the potential for something to go drastically wrong from a seemingly innocuous situation when compared with other climes you castigate.

[RoastLamb]

Lots of bickering in this thread. Ordinarily: laughable. In the context of this thead: horrible, and depressing.

RIP German guy

I've certainly curbed my mild aggression on the roads after reading this.

[Priceless]

Priceless

The 8.2 value for Thailand was 2005 and the comparable 2005 US value was 5.6

If you wanted to use the 03 to 05 data for the US then wouldn't you want to average in the higher 9.0 value for Thailand 2004?

it would be more like

Thailand 8.6 (04,05 averaged) vs. US (03-05) 5.9

or

Thailand 8.2 (05) vs US (05) 5.6

Priceless is like the butcher who puts his thumb on the scale when he is weighing the cold cuts. You have to keep an eye on him.

You are quite right, my apologies for getting the decimals wrong. My major point, though, was that the claims for Thailand being in the top three (or whatever) are nonsense.

Anyway, I think we can be quite sure that all these figures are wrong in some sense of the word (we are talking about social sciences with their imprecisions, slightly differing definitions between countries etc). I, for one, think that the orders of magnitude are correct though.

/ Priceless

[Priceless]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

Welcome back, Khun Priceless !

Just would like to "stir in" four questions into this thread :

1. what is the modal homicide in Thailand (the most common form of homicide) ?

2. how is the modal homicide committed (with what weapons or "instruments")

3. what percent of the modal homicide is committed by males, what percent committed by females ?

4. what are the most common factors among victims of the modal homicide (age, sex, income, place they live, type of work, education, etc.)

Yes, we have some thoughts, opinions about this, but we'd rather keep our human's mouth shut, for a change

best, ~o:37;

Why don't you look for yourself? I have no clue about the answers to your questions and no interest in trying to find them. I am fully busy living my own life and doing my best to enjoy it.

/ Priceless