Canadian Tourist To Be Deported For Selling Drawings For 20 Baht

[johndpoole]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse . What part of work permit do people not understand?

Very true,and probably he didnt have bail bond neither.This guy has broken the law and to say he didnt know is testing our inteligence too much.

Where do you draw the line of breaking the law,i only punched him soft,or i only sold nidnoi,or i didnt know the law,or i only had a little bit of drugs in my pocket.

BREAK THE LAW AND YOU ARE IN TROUBLE,READ AND DIGEST ALL THE POSTS AND PAPERS

What in hel_l is the problem with you and that mindless gotlost? Have you no compassion at all? He is a fellow falang and most certainly did not deserve this kind of treatment for such a trivial offence. God help this world when it has such uncaring people in it as you two.

I love you also sunshine. He broke their law. Go cry to the liberals. Oh and "God Help" this is a Buddhist country they do not believe in god.

I am sure we are all hoping very much you run into a minor issue with the law and spend 20-day in Jail.

People without empathy for their fellow man always have problems as proof by almost all your posts that show what a bitter and little person you are.

[johndpoole]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

When you travel to a foreign country you need to study and learn the local laws. No sympathy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Danish-Tour-...ml#entry3268087

Work permit, work permit, work permit!!!!!

Yes, the law requires you do not volunteer work too ... So, if you do something like dump your own tray when finished eating at McDonalds ... this too would be a violation.

What some people are too ignorant to realize is their should be fairness in the law and in this case a simple warning and then if her continued, I can see being deported.

Some folks are too ignorant to realize too that ......... actually forget it because some people are just too ignorant to try to educate.

[AjarnNorth]

I don't suppose any of you hardass he-broke-the-law-and-got-what-he-deserves fellows have ever been in a go go bar where women were topless or have ever given a woman money for the pleasure of her company here in Thailand. That would be against the law.

[RickBlaine]

I don't suppose any of you hardass he-broke-the-law-and-got-what-he-deserves fellows have ever been in a go go bar where women were topless or have ever given a woman money for the pleasure of her company here in Thailand. That would be against the law.

Exactly right. Of course 'ignorance is no defence', I was told that 35 years ago when I joined the military. But, mature nations have a mature legal system, one that can distinguish between an old man drawing (DRAWING for goodness sake) for a bit of fun and pocket money, and a hardened, violent criminal.

And to those from Smugville waving their little work permits around as though they are passports to Heaven - are you the same teachers that do a bit of private work 'on the side'? I *believe* the work permit is for a specific site only. If you get caught, doing something so terrible as teaching privately, may you spent 19 days in jail before you are deported...

[phusingpete]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

When you travel to a foreign country you need to study and learn the local laws. No sympathy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Danish-Tour-...ml#entry3268087

Work permit, work permit, work permit!!!!!

OK so he did break the law, but what we clearly have here is a complete and utter lack of JUSTICE. You can have a law but there should be a system of justice that weighs up any infringement of that law, to investigate the nature and severity of that infringement and then dispense justice accordingly. Are you saying, gotlost that you really consider this guy's treatment as JUST. I am interested in this case as I am a Painter (pictures), I'm always being asked to paint someones portrait, often by a policeman, I never do. I never sell or give my paintings away but they are on my walls, am I breaking the law?

[gotlost]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

When you travel to a foreign country you need to study and learn the local laws. No sympathy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Danish-Tour-...ml#entry3268087

Work permit, work permit, work permit!!!!!

OK so he did break the law, but what we clearly have here is a complete and utter lack of JUSTICE. You can have a law but there should be a system of justice that weighs up any infringement of that law, to investigate the nature and severity of that infringement and then dispense justice accordingly. Are you saying, gotlost that you really consider this guy's treatment as JUST. I am interested in this case as I am a Painter (pictures), I'm always being asked to paint someones portrait, often by a policeman, I never do. I never sell or give my paintings away but they are on my walls, am I breaking the law?

If you want justice as you or I understand it then go back to your home country. When you travel and live in another country you abide by that countries system. Educate oneself on the laws of the host country.

[Briggsy]

Sometimes, Common sense is a rare commodity around here. What bs about washing a truck or other silly statements. Certain professions are classified as Thai only and cannot be work permitted., Among them, ARTIST. You simply cannot engage in commerce over here in any of those protected Kings list professions. That is a serious fopar as evidenced by that holiday in Jail and a quick expulsion. I shoot thousands of photos all over Thailand and when asked, do everything pro bono. I would never consider standing in a market selling my work product. I do wash her truck , her motobike , and wash her hair as well.

bella

Pro bono? Well that's against the law, too, Ace. You sound like you think you are a smart guy when it comes to common sense, but you don't even seem to know that the work permit law refers to work, mental or physical, whether compensated or not. If you give your photos away, you belong in jail right beside the poor bastard that sold drawings for a lousy 20 baht -- which IS practically free. So, if you want to knock somebody's common sense on something as stupid as this, check yourself first.

Usually, I just let insults slide but in your case, I will answer your snide, offensive "Ace", remarks in this way. This forum if an opportunity to express one's opinion on a variety of subjects and to share information both of a serious and a humorous nature. When you make personal , inflammatory, attacks on an individual , then you have defeated the purpose of this forum. You suggest, that you are an expert in Thai law and have some experience in translating your obvious English background into Thai jusis prudence. I find that highly unlikely. The other possibility is that you may have experience in the pointing room and actually know first hand what will land you in jail, or at least, give a prosecutor a reason to charge you. Common sense and good judgement are a gift, you obviously, were not, so blessed.

Actually Tongue Thaied is correct. Your photography work is equally in breach of the law as this artist selling his pictures. Unfortunately for the Canadian and fortunately for you, his actions made him extremely conspicuous whilst yours do not.

[BangkokHank]

When you consider that Thailand is such a law-abiding country, you can understand why this Canadian was sent to jail for so long for the heinous crime of selling drawings.

Seriously, though: While working in Thailand without a work permit is technically illegal, it is in no way harmful to Thailand. In fact, quite the contrary. Have you noticed that the richest places in the world are often the ones with the most flexible and open labor markets? Thais might think they are protecting their jobs from being "stolen" by foreigners. What they are doing, though, is protecting themselves from the investment, innovation and knowledge that would come from a more open economy.

[deejah]

in most countries laws are (made) for people with either no common sense or sense of decency

the people who make and enforce laws, often dont abide or live by them

and are often above the law

laws and justice are two very different things

plenty of laws, while also a lack of true real equitable and fair justice

do as you will, dont get caught

flame away

[JUDAS]

This seems like a case of "the letter of the law" which he no doubt broke as opposed to "the spirit of the law" in which common sense should prevail.

[ozzieovaseas]

When you consider that Thailand is such a law-abiding country, you can understand why this Canadian was sent to jail for so long for the heinous crime of selling drawings.

Seriously, though: While working in Thailand without a work permit is technically illegal, it is in no way harmful to Thailand. In fact, quite the contrary. Have you noticed that the richest places in the world are often the ones with the most flexible and open labor markets? Thais might think they are protecting their jobs from being "stolen" by foreigners. What they are doing, though, is protecting themselves from the investment, innovation and knowledge that would come from a more open economy.

Agreed...And if own countries followed suit, an expat might be able to get decent paid work in his OWN country..thats if greedy industrialists werent allowed to employ cheap foriegn labour or bribe politicians to change laws to feed their greed.

Just three of the biggest..Telstra,Woolworths and Anz bank would have to be the worst anti-Australian, anti-competition, captalist, greed mongering fat cats there is..and whats worse is that all the predatory bullying of suppliers, exploiting of workers and manipulating of markets is state sanctioned because of the claim they are the biggest employers of (well,cheap) labour..and the old excuse of "having to look after the shareholders".

However i digress..As for this poor chap,the thing thats got me beat is why, if, so many TV posters are correct about the BiBs lust for tea money couldnt this guy offer a khar thod crap and say " here,you take this money i make"??...which may have solved the problem then and there by dispensing a bit of discreet tea money....

Although Im suspecting in this case even a little donation wouldnt suffice..There is nothing that will make any thai more irate than to see a farang (already rich) making money in Thailand, and possibly making money off of its own people.

Having seen the somtimes not so subtle anti-farang sentiments displayed in LOS...AND having considered the greed and jealousy directed at farang investors or indeed any succesful farang who does therin i would think its a LOT more safe to be a consumer rather than an entrepeneur..

will definatley lower the risks of being shot, thrown in jail or thrown out off condo balconies

Edited January 20, 2010 by ozzieovaseas

[torrenova]

Piss poor waste of time and a disgrace to the authorities. It would not surprise me to find out that they thought they would be in for a nice earner from this. Deplorable behaviour.

[britmaveric]

Well one should never work without a work permit. It may be harsh, but he was in the wrong.

Edited January 22, 2010 by britmaveric

[Tanaka]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

When you travel to a foreign country you need to study and learn the local laws. No sympathy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Danish-Tour-...ml#entry3268087

Work permit, work permit, work permit!!!!!

OK so he did break the law, but what we clearly have here is a complete and utter lack of JUSTICE. You can have a law but there should be a system of justice that weighs up any infringement of that law, to investigate the nature and severity of that infringement and then dispense justice accordingly. Are you saying, gotlost that you really consider this guy's treatment as JUST. I am interested in this case as I am a Painter (pictures), I'm always being asked to paint someones portrait, often by a policeman, I never do. I never sell or give my paintings away but they are on my walls, am I breaking the law?

If you want justice as you or I understand it then go back to your home country. When you travel and live in another country you abide by that countries system. Educate oneself on the laws of the host country.

Oh you are so right. Go by the letter always. I take for granted that if you were to go to another country, you would spend weeks or months before to study the laws there so you would be sure not to break any during your stay. You do mean that is what all tourists everywhere must do.

[shepsel]

I am wondering on how Thai law were to apply to earning income if you were not allowed to if you were moving residences, and you were selling some of your possessions like furniture or appliances. Technically it is income.

[soundman]

Posts have been removed for name calling and being written in an inflamatory manner.

Please try to debate in a civil manner.

................................

I have come to the conclusion that many Thai Laws are written in such a way, that when they are enforced (most often selectively, however, that is a completely different issue which another poster has touched on above), there is no possible way to wiggle out on any type of technicality.

All aliens engaged in any kind of work in Thailand must hold a valid work permit, issued principally by the Department of Employment of the Ministry of Labor and Social Welfare pursuant to the Alien Employment Act B.E. 2521 (A.D. 1978).

The term "work" is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

The validity period of a work permit is governed by the holder's immigration status, i.e. a work permit usually expires on the last day of the period of stay allowed by immigration officials as shown on the alien's visa. Aliens holding transit and tourist visas are not permitted to work.

[monkfish]

If you want justice as you or I understand it then go back to your home country. When you travel and live in another country you abide by that countries system. Educate oneself on the laws of the host country.

Better tell that to the X Million tourists who visit Thailand every year then !

[gotlost]

"Oh you are so right. Go by the letter always. I take for granted that if you were to go to another country, you would spend weeks or months before to study the laws there so you would be sure not to break any during your stay. You do mean that is what all tourists everywhere must do."

Any tourist from any country (Canada) that sells in any boarder market in Thailand is asking for a one way ticket home. He was turned over to his government in Bangkok and he was made to forfeit his passport for transportation home. He will be lucky if he sees another passport in his next life time. So, all you adventure travelers have fun and do not worry about other countries laws.

[monkfish]

"Oh you are so right. Go by the letter always. I take for granted that if you were to go to another country, you would spend weeks or months before to study the laws there so you would be sure not to break any during your stay. You do mean that is what all tourists everywhere must do."

Any tourist from any country (Canada) that sells in any boarder market in Thailand is asking for a one way ticket home. He was turned over to his government in Bangkok and he was made to forfeit his passport for transportation home. He will be lucky if he sees another passport in his next life time. So, all you adventure travelers have fun and do not worry about other countries laws.

Yep and at the same time don't forget to tell them its also against The Law to take photos in Thailand.

So if you ever took a picture you are a criminal

[gotlost]

"Oh you are so right. Go by the letter always. I take for granted that if you were to go to another country, you would spend weeks or months before to study the laws there so you would be sure not to break any during your stay. You do mean that is what all tourists everywhere must do."

Any tourist from any country (Canada) that sells in any boarder market in Thailand is asking for a one way ticket home. He was turned over to his government in Bangkok and he was made to forfeit his passport for transportation home. He will be lucky if he sees another passport in his next life time. So, all you adventure travelers have fun and do not worry about other countries laws.

Yep and at the same time don't forget to tell them its also against The Law to take photos in Thailand.

So if you ever took a picture you are a criminal

No, your are wrong. Taking photos in Thailand is within the law. Selling them with out a work permit can get you in trouble

[KKvampire]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

When you travel to a foreign country you need to study and learn the local laws. No sympathy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Danish-Tour-...ml#entry3268087

Work permit, work permit, work permit!!!!!

The law in Thailand whether criminal or more often Civil is applied when the BiB (boys in Brown) decide they want to apply it. certainly enforcing it against Thais is not total as anyone who lived here for any length of time should know.

Edited January 23, 2010 by KKvampire

[gotlost]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

When you travel to a foreign country you need to study and learn the local laws. No sympathy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Danish-Tour-...ml#entry3268087

Work permit, work permit, work permit!!!!!

The law in Thailand whether criminal or more often Civil is applied when the BiB (boys in Brown) decide they want to apply it. certainly enforcing it against Thais is not total as anyone who lived here for any length of time should know.

Boys in Brown had nothing to do with this, most the time they could care less unless they can get there cut. This guy was busted by Thai Immigration doing their rounds in a Thai market on the boarder with Lao where I'm sure a Caucasian would never be noticed. Real bright this person was.

[NearestTheTee]

I met this guy at a restaurant in town back before Christmas. He does cartoons & caricatures & did a caricature of the owner of the restaurant, in about 3 minutes. A very nice, affable, elderly fellow. He told me travels around the world & does this everywhere he goes. He enjoys people, this is a lot of fun for the subject & he creates lots of good will in the process.

I can't believe they arrested him, much less had him spend even one night in jail.

If he can afford to travel around the world why bother charging 20 baht for some of his drawings? Doesn't make sense. Maybe he was charging more hence the seemingly harsh treatment!?

[Bottlerocket]

The prohibited occupation he engaged in was street vending. Artist isn't one of them.

[craighj]

So, given what has been said.

Even though my Thai wife and I own our house in Mukdahan and I have a work permit for a location in Bangkok.

Technically I could be arrested and deported for painting a wall in my own house, hanging a picture or digging a hole in my front yard?

Thailand, sure has some growing up to do!

Craig

[hanseman]

The prohibited occupation he engaged in was street vending. Artist isn't one of them.

I think you are right about this. I am an artist painting and graphic arts and I have contacted the Thai Embassy in Sweden and got the answer that I am allowed to do my profession in Thailand.

Maybe he had to ask for work permit formally and did not do that.

Here is a list of professions prohibited for aliens in Thailand. Artist work is not listed.

Restricted Professions for foreigners

There are certain restricted professions and occupations for which the Labor Department is prohibited from issuing a work permit to foreign nationals. Under Royal Decree B.E. 2522 (1979), an alien is unable to obtain a permit to work in the following occupations:

1. laboring

2. work in agriculture, animal breeding, forestry, fishing and farm supervision (excluding specialized skills for the branch, farm supervision or in the maritime fishing field)

3. masonry, carpentry or other construction work

4. wood carving

5. driving of motor vehicles or non-motorised carriers (except piloting international airplanes)

6. shop attendant and window salespeople

7. auctioneering

8. accountancy supervision, auditing or services in the accounting field (except occasional internal auditing)

9. gem cutting or polishing

10. hair cutting, hair dressing or beautician work

11. hand weaving

12. mat weaving or fabrication of wares from reed, rattan, kenaf, straw or bamboo pulp

13. manual fibre paper making

14. lacquerware making

15. Thai musical instrument fabrication

16. nielloware fabrication v 17. goldsmith, silversmith, or other precious metalwork

18. bronzeware fabrication

19. Thai doll making

20. mattress or padded blanket fabrication

21. alms bowl fabrication

22. manual silk product fabrication

23. Buddha image fabrication

24. knife making

25. paper or cloth umbrella fabrication

26. shoemaking

27. hat making

28. brokerage or agency work (except international business)

29. engineering work, civil engineering branch, which involves designing, drawing, calculation, organization, research, planning, testing, construction supervision or advisory work (except work requiring specialized skills)

30. architectural work involving designing, drawing or estimating as well as construction supervision or advisory work

31. dressmaking

32. pottery or ceramics

33. manual cigarette rolling

34. tourist guide or tour organizing agency

35. hawking business

36. Thai character typesetting

37. clerical or secretarial work

38. legal or litigation service.

The list of restricted occupations has been amended several times by Royal Decree, and an alien desiring to work in Thailand should periodically check if his or her occupation has been added to or removed from the above list. Aliens who perform work in these restricted occupations can be imprisoned up to five years and/or fined from 2,000 to 100,000 baht.

Personally I think it is crazy that you can not cut your lawn, because you break the law.

The reason is that they think you are taking the job from a Thai.

[kennkate]

Wow. Manual Cigarette Rolling. Look's like I can't roll my own fags when in Thailand. Might get a couple of weeks in the slamer and deported.

[gardening9966]

"Everybody must know the law" is a statement, feeling sorry for the guy too. And I feel sorry for him, even now he did something illegal. But did he know ? No one tells you when you enter the country. This artist did what every artist does: make something, create something. Have fun and make people smile.

This case could have been solved in a different way. Make the man understand the rules, take the 20 baht away from him, fine him with a 200, warn him and let him go. But the officer sticked to his principles and forgot that the man made a minor offence and forgot that this is the land of smiles.

Drugs available at the corner of the street; many violations of traffic rules; no helmet and no driving license; so many things wrong and than pick this man and deport him ? I have no words for this.

But may be we do not know everything. Did he have a big mouth ? Were his papers OK ? Did he have funds to live from ? Was this the first time they saw him doing this "terrible illegal things" ?

Many questions remain.

Whatever , but I believe a minimal fine and a warning will do a great deal. Its a pity ; with all the major crimes happening to farangs , nothing seems to be happening but just this small bit of hobby landed him behind bars . May buddha bless everyone.