Learn (non-bangkok Dialect) Thai Book?

[farangnahrak]

Anyone know of any books that teaches specifically Isaan Thai, Northern Thai, or Southern Thai? I've pretty much mastered the Bangkok dialect.

I found a book that, if I remember right, is called 'Getting by in Isaan Thai'. But I'm already an advanced/expert learner so that didn't teach me much . . .

[DavidHouston]

Farang,

Congratulations on achieving a pinnacle of excellence in Thai which few of us are able to reach. I am so impressed at your ability to learn to read, write, and speak Central Thai at the expert level. I and others would certainly appreciate your giving us some tips and guidance on how we can learn Thai also; perhaps we will not approach your capability but you can help us to move along that path.

The ThaiARC website at http://thaiarc.tu.ac.th/folktales/ has, as its name indicates, regional people reading their folktales in their native dialect.

Please let us know if this is helpful to you. Thanks and look forward to hearing from you.

[SoftWater]

Thanks for that link David, another one for my bookmarks. I see they are funded by Nectec, like Lexitron.

[Gaccha]

The answer is blindlingly obvious: there are loads of books in Thai on the different Thai dialects. Since your an expert that will not be much of a problem.

For us grunts, the options are limited, but a book I have cited twice before is a Japanese-Thai text that provides the first 500 words in Central, Northern, Southern, Issan, and crucially provides an MP3 of all. Just walk into Kinokuniya Central World and they shall supply.

[farangnahrak]

The answer is blindlingly obvious: there are loads of books in Thai on the different Thai dialects.

Out of curiosity, where did you find these? Im in BKK.

In Siam Paragon, there are probably ~30 Thai language for Thai speakers books. Mostly Ratchasap (royal language, not worth my time learning right now), Thai sayings (still working on that book), and children's books (too noobish for me). None on regional dialects.

The literary books are all in ภาษาสวยๆ, which is pretty useless for everyday talk . . . but good for practicing speed reading.

David, as for tips, here are a few I wish people told me when I first started:

- Thais don't talk like in the books

- Most Thais add informal/rude words into sentences (but they only teach you formal/polite words)

- Thailand is a hodgepodge of regional dialects . . . kinda like Brits, Yanks, and Forest Gump in the same conversation

That last one is really tripping me up. The word choices and pronunciations are fairly different between each region. The 'Thai Language' is really a misnomer . . . so hence my post!

[Tod Daniels]

Congratulations on achieving a pinnacle of excellence in Thai which few of us are able to reach. I am so impressed at your ability to learn to read, write, and speak Central Thai at the expert level. I and others would certainly appreciate your giving us some tips and guidance on how we can learn Thai also; perhaps we will not approach your capability but you can help us to move along that path.

David that hasta rate right up there as one of the funniest things I've ever seen you post. (It's almost as condescending as my posts)

That I must disagree with a language expert such as 'farangnahrak' vexes me greatly. BUT I feel his comments must be rebutted;

1 Thais don't talk like in the books

2 Most Thais add informal/rude words into sentences (but they only teach you formal/polite words)

3 Thailand is a hodgepodge of regional dialects

Thais don't talk like in the books - Of course the difference between written and spoken thai is vast, for a person who’s “pretty must mastered the Bangkok Dialect” the fact you just figured that out is quite the conundrum. BTW what you refer to as the Bangkok dialect is actually called "Central Thai"; Passa Glang and last time I checked (which I do periodically) it is the OFFICIAL language of thailand..

Most Thais add informal/rude words into sentences (but they only teach you formal/polite words) - Those are actually called ending particles and true some can be more forceful than others (but if you are hearing rude ones, you might look at the demographic of people you associate with). Most are innocuous enough conveying, persuasion, pleading, demand, acquiescence, agreement or some other 'felt' marker to the sentence to give an idea of the emotion of the speaker. Because thai is a tonal language varying the word length or sound is not a way to convey emotion like it is in engrish, hence the plethora of ending particles.

Thailand is a hodgepodge of regional dialects - Sorry my friend but EVERY thai national who goes to school CAN and does get taught CENTRAL THAI. Most people I've met, even in Nakhon Nowhere can speak understand central thai just fine.

While your observations run counter to mine, that in and of itself doesn't take away from your opinion(s), (only my belief in them ).

If you indeed speak central thai in an effluent <sic> a manner as you profess; depending on where you live here, maybe you might be ready to learn some catchy regional phrases to further impress upon the indigenous natives your mastery of their 'hodge podge of regional dialects'.

I will add, knowing an Issan (thai/lao), Kam Mueang, or Passa Dai, phrase or two while cutesy; is not gonna be anything more than a novelty if you can't continue a sentence.

I wish you good luck in your on-going thai language acquisition, and only hope one day I too can say,

"I pretty much mastered the Bangkok dialect"

[farangnahrak]

I think you misunderstood. He asked for tips. I gave them. I didn't say 'I just figured this out yesterday'. ใจเย็นๆนะครับ

There are many other ways/words to be informal/rude than just adding ending particles. Pronoun selection, for example.

And lastly, I realize everyone understands central dialect, even Laotians. But it'd be silly to go to Isaan and expect them to speak central to me

What sparked this post was my last trip to Chiang Mai . . . I hadn't been there in 5 years, and this time I noticed the dialect. It sounded all funny like, almost a constant bouncing of rising and falling tones. Then came the weird words . . .

me: กี่บาทอ่ะครับ?

the seller: ซาวบาท

me: ???

Apparently it means 20 baht . . .

My very limited understanding of southern dialect is that they like to cut words in half . . . for example:

นุกม๊ะ? = สนุกไหม?

So I'm basically looking for a book so I'm not all งง all the time when outside of BKK . . .

[SoftWater]

I don't know about Southern dialect, but I'd imagine learning Laos would be a good supplement to learning Thai for speaking in Isaan.

In Chiang Mai, I guess there are a lot of Burmese refugees, so a smattering of that language might come in handy.

Some of the eastern border provinces also speak Khmer or a variant of Thai/Khmer I believe, so learning Cambodian might clue you up in those regions.

Benjawan Becker has beginners books in Lao, Khmer and Burmese (or is it 'Myanmarese'?), but as you rightly say, you'll get a very sterilized (but still useful) slice of the language from them. No doubt, there are more advanced books in all these languages if these are too easy for you.

In Chula books and Se-ed stores you can often find books on slang and idioms from around the country - at you're level, reading books on Thai language written for Thai people and, of course, talking to the locals whose dialect you want to master seem to be the obvious routes forward.

Edited January 18, 2010 by SoftWater

[DavidHouston]

Congratulations on achieving a pinnacle of excellence in Thai which few of us are able to reach. I am so impressed at your ability to learn to read, write, and speak Central Thai at the expert level. I and others would certainly appreciate your giving us some tips and guidance on how we can learn Thai also; perhaps we will not approach your capability but you can help us to move along that path.

David that hasta rate right up there as one of the funniest things I've ever seen you post. (It's almost as condescending as my posts)

That I must disagree with a language expert such as 'farangnahrak' vexes me greatly. BUT I feel his comments must be rebutted;

Tod,

I am never facetious nor demeaning nor condescending. I take Farang at his word that he is an expert. And, I am not a trained educator so I do not have an opinion regarding the quality of his suggestions. I wonder now how I can take that facetious tone out of my voice.

Edited January 18, 2010 by DavidHouston

[SoftWater]

Softwater,

I am never facetious nor demeaning nor condescending. I take Farang at his word that his is an expert. And, I am not a trained educator so I do not have an opinion regarding the quality of his suggestions.

Not sure why that was aimed at me, David?! A case of mistaken identity??

[DavidHouston]

Softwater,

I am never facetious nor demeaning nor condescending. I take Farang at his word that his is an expert. And, I am not a trained educator so I do not have an opinion regarding the quality of his suggestions.

Not sure why that was aimed at me, David?! A case of mistaken identity??

Sorry, Softwater, my bad. I was aiming at Tod. I corrected, via edit, the noun of direct address. Thanks for pointing that out.

Edited January 18, 2010 by DavidHouston

[farangnahrak]

In Chula books and Se-ed stores you can often find books on slang and idioms from around the country

Thanks. I already own สำนวนไทยใช้ให้เป็น. Its a pretty good book on idioms. A lot to memorize though, still working on it . . . my gf roles her eyes every time I use an idiom incorrectly, lol . . .

I searched these sites for learning regional dialect books, but no luck. I just guessed at typical keywords . . .

http://www.chulabook.com/

http://www.se-ed.com/

I think I should just visit and see what they got.

Oh and I'm not really an expert, just upper-level intermediate . . . I'm still working on it!

[bannork]

เจ้าควรชิเบิงหนังอิสานหรือหมอลำ แบบ Karaoke

ถ้าเจ้าบ่มีเมียข้อยแนะนำผู้สาวอิสาน....งามหลาย

[farangnahrak]

เจ้าควรชิเบิงหนังอิสานหรือหมอลำ แบบ Karaoke

ถ้าเจ้าบ่มีเมียข้อยแนะนำผู้สาวอิสาน....งามหลาย

LOL

Informative yet entertaining all in one

[RickBradford]

Oh, yes, plenty of stuff from YouTube... remember this song?

โอ๊ย..น้อ..นอ...คนบ้านเฮา

คนบ้านเดียวกัน แค่มองตากันก็เข้าใจอยู่....

There is also an exclusively หมอลำ/ลูกทุ่ง radio station 94.5FM ลูกทุ่ง Inter.

Not very academic, I grant you...

[anchan42]

เจ้าควรชิเบิงหนังอิสานหรือหมอลำ แบบ Karaoke

ถ้าเจ้าบ่มีเมียข้อยแนะนำผู้สาวอิสาน....งามหลาย

Good one!!

[CSS]

This was discussed to a small extend concerning kammuang here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Find-Resourc...Ma-t119787.html

A quick search in Thai for some places to learn essan turned up some things like this:

http://www.onsorn.com/forum/index.php?topic=7146.0

http://www.baanmaha.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2337.html

http://www.isangate.com/word.html

http://www.isan.clubs.chula.ac.th/lang/

http://lms.thaicyberu.go.th/officialtcu/ma...-web2/index.htm

http://guru.google.co.th/guru/thread?tid=50086634588f776c

None of it gives extended lessons but there is a lot to learn from those sites.

As mentioned earlier Benjawan Poomsan Becker has books on the lao language and regional dialects from her paiboon publishing website or amazon.

Learning these dialects is fun.

Good luck.

[joorakee]

http://www.speaklikeathai.com/northeastern-dialect.html

[anchan42]

Thais don't talk like in the books - True and it is not about written or spoken language. Most books that claim to teach you Thai conversation teach very formal and robot-like language. Most Thais do not talk like that.

Most Thais add informal/rude words into sentences -True especially among male friends. Swear words/phases are quite common between friends. You will find that animals are running rampage in conversations between Thai males. The favourite one is the monitor lizard. I have never seen a book that teaches you those.

Thailand is a hodgepodge of regional dialects -Also true. Majority of Thais understand and can speak central Thai but there are minority who can’t. Less true in the north and isaan but very true in deep south. There are many people in deep south who cannot understand, speak, read or write Thai.

[Pash]

I think you misunderstood. He asked for tips. I gave them. I didn't say 'I just figured this out yesterday'. ใจเย็นๆนะครับ

There are many other ways/words to be informal/rude than just adding ending particles. Pronoun selection, for example.

And lastly, I realize everyone understands central dialect, even Laotians. But it'd be silly to go to Isaan and expect them to speak central to me

What sparked this post was my last trip to Chiang Mai . . . I hadn't been there in 5 years, and this time I noticed the dialect. It sounded all funny like, almost a constant bouncing of rising and falling tones. Then came the weird words . . .

me: กี่บาทอ่ะครับ?

the seller: ซาวบาท

me: ???

Apparently it means 20 baht . . .

My very limited understanding of southern dialect is that they like to cut words in half . . . for example:

นุกม๊ะ? = สนุกไหม?

So I'm basically looking for a book so I'm not all งง all the time when outside of BKK . . .

You should try travelling around Thailand, Go far north. Real north not Isaan. Past CM. There is even lesser co-relation between the 2 dialects. And as Tod -daniels (time of death??) correctly reported all students are taught central Thai.

When my father in law comes to Bangkok no one can understand him. I love it, as at home (far north) it is my turn to be misunderstood.

[farangnahrak]

I'm reporting back . . . I went to a few book stores, no luck.

I found books of folk tales from the different regions, but its all written in Bangkok dialect.

Se-ed Books not only didn't have anything, but an employee there told me he hadn't even heard of a book that taught anything other than Bangkok dialect.

That being said, I found this for Isaan Thai:

http://www.chulabook.com/description.asp?b...e=9789747534887

But I haven't gone to the store to check it out, yet. 329 pages for ~1000 baht.

[Johpa]

Thailand is a hodgepodge of regional dialects -Also true. Majority of Thais understand and can speak central Thai but there are minority who can’t. Less true in the north and isaan but very true in deep south. There are many people in deep south who cannot understand, speak, read or write Thai.

More correctly, Thailand contains a few closely related languages, the main languages being Central Thai (phasaa klang), Northern Thai (kham muang), Isaan, and Southern Thai. And Lao is usually taught as a separate language from Central Thai in western universities.

Spoken in their more modern and less assimilated forms towards Central Thai, such as spoken in more remote rural areas, these languages are not mutually intelligible. Although a speaker of one language may often understand the topic of conversation in another language, they often are not able to follow the comment. I remember well the occasion in the 1980s of the visit to our village of Thai political leader Bhichai Rattakul, who was looking to purchase some rural land, dressed in Brahman whites, talking to old Uey Keow, dressed in a pakamaa, yet needing an interpreter for the conversation. But as noted, just about everyone in Thailand is now fluent in Central Thai as a result of the universal education in Central Thai as well as the dominance of Central Thai in media and entertainment. Just about every Lao I meet has fluent comprehension in Central Thai from exposure to media alone.

There are however within these Tai languages lots of regional dialects. Up north where I am most familiar, it is common for people from one province, or even from neighboring districts perhaps separated by some hills, to sit around and talk about the regional differences in speech. Due to these variation I find most rural Thai to be far more linguistically aware than most of my fellow Farangs.

[Richard W]

What sparked this post was my last trip to Chiang Mai . . . I hadn't been there in 5 years, and this time I noticed the dialect. It sounded all funny like, almost a constant bouncing of rising and falling tones. Then came the weird words . . .

The tone rules change once you go beyond Central Thai - and there's even the odd Central Thai dialect that still splits the live syllables without tone marks three ways. Learn the concept of 'Gedney box' (Google is your friend - it's not complex and I may have explained it here) and you can start with the tone boxes in the dialect phonology sketches linked from http://thaiarc.tu.ac.th/dialect/ .

So I'm basically looking for a book so I'm not all งง all the time when outside of BKK . . .

I'd hoped some of the ex-pats could help, but as none have, here are my suggestions:

Of the books claiming to teach Northern Thai I've looked at, ภาษาเมืองล้านนา ฉบับเรียนด้วยตนเอง ISBN ๙๗๔-๘๕๔๗๒-๐-๕ (sic!) by บุญคิด วัชรศาสตร์ is probably the most appropriate, but I've only looked for books that teach reading and writing. A lot of the latter assume you can speak Northern Thai. It can be ordered on-line - I don't know if it's on the shelves outside Chiangmai.

For vocabulary lists, there's a systematic (well, as systematic as you can get in Thailand) vocabulary list for the four main dialects in ภาษาไทยถิน ISBN 978-974-9934-71-5 by วิไลศักดิ์ กิ่งคำ. It's published by Kasetsart University Press and was bought for me in Chiangmai, so it need not be on sale in Bangkok. (On the other hand, books from the Silkworm Press can be bought worldwide, so there's hope.) There may be some biases in it as informants were mostly well-educated, spellings are erratic, and some of the tone correspondences are erratic. On the other hand, one must expect some irregular correspondences - Standard Thai itself has a few irregular correspondences when compared with languages outside Thailand. I don't know if data has been normalised - Southern Thai has an array of tone systems, and the Tak Bai tone system is nothing like those of the rest of the south.

I can't help you on Southern or Lao syntax.

[foolforlove]

farangnahrak,

I dont like to be the bearer of bad news... but perhaps the news will save you hours of effort.

The "Thai Isaan Lao Phrasebook" is mildly interesting. It comes with a CD, which is helpful. It doesnt really explain too much, from what I remember. It merely presents sample conversations in parallel text. Also on the downside, the topics and conversations reflect ideas, culture, and values which seem somewhat provincial to the author's locale and experience.

There is another book, somewhat new on the market, titled "Speak Thai Isaan". It comes with a CD/DVD. It is interesting and makes a better effort at being an actual text book presentation. I should say that I have spent quite a bit of time studying to speak Isaan (with my friends and at a language school), so I didnt find the book particularly useful. On the plus side, the author attempts to couch the language in explanations of culture. On the downside of this book, the author misses some important vocabulary and also is unaware of the limitations of his experience. To wit, his book contains a number of regionalism (in language and culturally explanation) which are unique to Udon or at least "upper Isaan".

There are a few other scattered options more along the lines of phrase books. But they are less interesting than these two.

I can't speak to the other dialects, but if you want to speak Isaan, your best avenue is to get lessons from a native speaker. That's what I did. And further, the speaker should be somewhat close geographically to the area you want to use Isaan in, because (as you yourself noted 100% accurately),

• Thais don't talk like in the books
  
• Most Thais add informal/rude words into sentences
  
• Thailand is a hodgepodge of regional dialects
  

The same is true within Isaan, having language characteristics unique to each province.

I'm reporting back . . . I went to a few book stores, no luck.

I found books of folk tales from the different regions, but its all written in Bangkok dialect.

Se-ed Books not only didn't have anything, but an employee there told me he hadn't even heard of a book that taught anything other than Bangkok dialect.

That being said, I found this for Isaan Thai:

http://www.chulabook.com/description.asp?b...e=9789747534887

But I haven't gone to the store to check it out, yet. 329 pages for ~1000 baht.

Edited January 25, 2010 by foolforlove

[farangnahrak]

I'm still investigating, but I've had no luck finding dialect books in Bangkok. Period. That book I pointed out earlier, Chula Books said they sold out like 7 years ago and never restocked it. No way to tell if it was good or not.

I did however find one interesting book at Chula . . . its written in Thai, and teaches the history of Thailand's regional dialects. Basically explaining how the dialects are related, what history influenced them, etc.

It also explained why ไทย has a ย at the end. Interesting! But it doesn't actually teach the regional dialects, so not worth it to me to read the rest.

I'm still looking into the other leads you guys offered, so I'll report back if I have any more luck.

ps - Traveling to a region to study is not an option for me. I live in BKK. And often times I'll spend a year in the US before coming back again. So I need a book to study when I want where I want.

[anchan42]

Would a book that teaches you Laos help?

Just an idea

[Gaccha]

I said there were loads of books in Thai on dialects, and I was right.

Walk into Thammasat's main library on the Tha Prachan campus and you find a shelf of 30+ dialect books on the Thai language.

PL4191- PL4195 is the book code area. U2 (underground level 2) of the library.

There are general regional dialect books, a book on the Petchaburi dialect, one on final particles in Khon Khaen, and even a very detailed analysis of linguistic variations in Ratchaburi.

No more excuses.

[anchan42]

I am wondering how many of those books are still in print.

Not sure if you can borrow a book form the library for 3 months.

The book on Rachaburi variation sound interesting.

There are many ethnic groups in Rachaburi and they speak quite differently form each other.

[CSS]

I said there were loads of books in Thai on dialects, and I was right.

Walk into Thammasat's main library on the Tha Prachan campus and you find a shelf of 30+ dialect books on the Thai language.

PL4191- PL4195 is the book code area. U2 (underground level 2) of the library.

There are general regional dialect books, a book on the Petchaburi dialect, one on final particles in Khon Khaen, and even a very detailed analysis of linguistic variations in Ratchaburi.

No more excuses.

Jumping off of Gaccha's use of the library, I went to the Thai National Library webpage (http://www.nlt.go.th/th_index.htm), did a quick search for ภาษาอีสาน and คำเมือง. The result, like Gaccha said, had plenty of options. I chose one to click on, found the ISBN number and put that number by itself into google. That brought me to a publisher and where the book could be purchased/ordered. This is the book I did the search for: http://www.phrasebook.thai-isan-lao.com/. I imagine that there are many more to be found in the same way.

Edited January 29, 2010 by CSS

[farangnahrak]

This is the book I did the search for: http://www.phrasebook.thai-isan-lao.com/. I imagine that there are many more to be found in the same way.

I probably should do an update . . . I'm still researching this, though . . .

I found this very book you mentioned at the 4th floor bookstore at Siam Paragon. It appears newly stocked, and they have like 20 still there. Cost me 995B. I spent about 15 minutes skimming it so far, so here is my first impressions review . . .

The book is physically twice as large as it needs to be, tons of white space and large fonts. Kind of annoying for me, as I like to read on the go. Its a 'basic phrase book', for stuff like hotels, taxi rides, prices, etc, and written in Thai, Laotian, Isaan, English, and karaoke side-by-side. If I was to write the book, I definitely wouldn't do it in the manner the author did. But it should give me a month of studying before I'll need to find another book . . . It also comes with a CD, but I don't like CDs as I can't use them on the go . . .

Going through it, it appears Isaan is a random mixture of Thai and Laotian words (I already guessed that), so I might just bother spending a month learning Laotian. I don't want to, but I think it might actually help me speak better Thai . . . sorry, I'm rambling!