Non Teaching Hours At School.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Hi there,

The reason for this topic is simple:

I, and my fellow teachers, are coming under more and more 'pressure' from our school to partake in and attend loads activities at school, markedly those that are non language relevant and occur on weekends/evenings.

Basically, the feeling we get is that as foreign teachers on a high salary we should be involved a lot more in the school's activities, irrespective of the fact that the activities fall under our remit or not.

Don't get me wrong, I genuinely believe that as foreigners we should be available for things such as ceremonies, parties, meetings and competitions as well as doing extra plays, songs etc to be performed outside of school hours. A positive attitude is important and none of us have a "I'm paid to teach 20 hours a week and they can jump if they think I will do anything else".

That said, we feel that we do all do an awful lot of 'extra work' already and resent the demand to get even more involved. I don't think it is relevant to list exactly what we do (unless asked), but needless to say, we feel it is already a fair bit.

I am curious to know how much 'extra' non-teaching things you do per week... is this a common headache / constant pain for you?

Cheers

James

[Scott]

We don't have a lot of hours per week, but we do have things like Sports' Day, Family Fun Day etc. These are sometimes held on a Saturday and we have a very active role in preparing students and activities.

Personally, I don't like this stuff, but I do it because I have to. We have others at the school who really get it into it.

We contractually have 4 weekend or holiday days of work. Some years, we have none, some years we have a couple.

[Bobr]

My school often wants me to be at these types of events, but I can't really complain since they do not require me to remain at school once my classes for the day are finished, or if I have an open period. I teach 24 class hours a week, but on one day go home at 1:30 and 2:30 on 2 others. I think some of this is cultural, many of the Thai teachers remain at school until 5:00 or even later everyday when there is no real reason for them to do so since they are not doing anything productive.

Even then most of the weekend or evening activities are reasonably enjoyable, and I enjoy meeting the children's parents. They were also more than reasonable when I needed 7 school days off for an operation and paid me my full salary for that month.

From I understand about Thai work culture, I suggest you do it and not complain.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Bobr

[Loaded]

Thai teachers participate without complaint in activities outside of normal teaching hours. Often school directors assume farang teachers will participate happily as well. Unfortunately, they don't understand the way we like to observe rules and regulations: "my contract states..." This displays a lack of naam jai to Thais despite a refusal being the right of the teacher. A cultural contradiction we find hard to understand and appreciate.

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe I was lucky. Stayed on campus during school hours (745 to 1630) and only had 2 days a year of Saturday work, 2 days of long trips.

[otherstuff1957]

I work 3 or 4 Saturdays per year (parent/teacher meetings) and occasionally (about 2-3 times a year) there will be an event with a longer day than usual. Also, different teachers are responsible for the various activities, for instance, I usually do most of the work organizing the school's Science Day, which may involve some weekend or evening work. Other teachers take care of Sports Day, English Day, etc... Most of the activities are organized by the Thai teachers though.

Most days I arrive well before 7:30 and leave at about 4:30. I teach 17 hours per week (including club). When not teaching I'll be working on lesson plans, grading, setting up the science lab or talking to other teachers.

Edited January 23, 2010 by otherstuff1957

[Ijustwannateach]

Most schools- especially if they are new, especially if they have relatively small numbers of foreigners, especially if the Thai teachers are heavily involved with the foreign teachers, and especially if they are are poorly managed by dysfunctional people who don't understand real world economics- run into this kind of issue at one point or another (the issue of foreigners involved in out-of-school activities- the issue of foreigners doing part-time work is a separate issue).

I more-or-less expect a couple of weekends a semester to be eaten up by meetings, seminars, and other stuff. That's par for being a teacher, really, and better than you would do as a teacher in an English-speaking country. But there are limits- I've heard of schools where the staff were told they had to go in every weekend for months on end- there's no way that is justified by contract or labour law.

If your school has few foreign teachers, it can look bad if they are not 'playing ball' with the rest of the staff- especially WHEN (not if) the rest of the staff get jealous. Furthermore, there is a continuing confusion about the position of foreign teachers in Thailand related to a lack of education in economics and business. The ONLY economic justification (never mind the cultural and other factors) for our working abroad is a better pay-to-cost-of-living ratio than we could earn elsewhere, which is indeed quite possible at many schools here. Otherwise there would be no foreign teachers. We are not in the same labour pool as a Thai teacher, not educated the same way, and if a Thai teacher could provide what we do then they would do so and there would be no demand for our services. The Thai staff and faculty are often exploited because it is historically their position and they have no choice- that is sad and that is deplorable, but it is after all their country and if they wanted to change things in their own system through collective action they could do so, although with the attendant risks and costs. We do not need to be exploited in excess of our contracts and the law, and when unreasonable attempts are made to do so we should resist, or if necessary, leave.

Of course, the bottom line is that the boss makes the rules and even if his demands go against the letter of the contract or of Labour Law it can be awfully hard to use those things to protect yourself. In the worst case, as usual, you simply need to look for another job at a school where they've already learned this doesn't work (checking turnover rates is a good indication of how high on the BS scale a school is presently located). It doesn't hurt when you're interviewing to ask about such things too, as a pre-emptive protection against mistreatment. The only programmes with foreign teachers that will truly last and thrive are the ones which eventually learn about economics, even if they have to learn the hard way.

[Credo]

Variations in outside activities can be roughly divided into two categories:

1. Administrative.

2. Student Activities.

I would hold a tight line at nonsense administrative activities where they want you there because they think they can make you be there.

Student related activities are generally OK, because these are where you have a special skill that can help the students. These include sports, music, drama, speech contests etc.

It will also depend on the area. Some schools have students from all over the city of Bangkok or other areas where it's hard to have much of this. Some have a smaller catchment area where it's rather easy for students to get to school and participate.

[IMA_FARANG]

Reading through some of the posts here I have a question. Let me start by saying I'm not a teacher, but my mother was a teacher in the U.S. for nearly 30 years. I just wonder how many teachers now teaching in Thailand have had previous experience teaching in either the U.S. or in Europe in the public school system (by which I mean the school system maintained by taxes and run by the local government). I know how many extra hours the U.S. school system required my mother to put in, and it was quite a lot of extra hoyrs. There were those hours where a teacher was required to supervise students who were required to stay after regular school hours as a form of discipline/punishment for offenses commited in class (class disruption and such), or dentention as it is called in the U.S. Teachers rotated that duty with the junior teachers getting the bulk of it. Then the law required that any time students were using the play ground outside the school building, even outside of normal school hours, a qualified teacher had to be there to watch the students. That included sports and such. Then the school district usually required that there were parents/teacher nights where parents were supposed to be allowed to come and discuss there children's progress. Most of the parents never bothered to show for these parent/teacher nights, but they were a duty required for teachers to attend. They usually occurred on weekday nights. My mother used to bring a book to read for the hour or two she was required to sit and wait in the empty classroom for the parents that never showed. And in addition there were the state mandated courses that were required for teachers, such as first aid, CPR, and so on. The teachers had to take these courses, usually during the school vacation periods, to maintain their qulifications to teach. From my experience, a teacher's required work time in the public school system in the U.S. was increased by at least one third with these "other" required duties that involved supervision and such "non-teaching" duties.

Anyway, with all that as background, my question is this: for those who have experience teaching in either the U.S. or a European school system....how does the amount of hours you are required to spend on these 'non-teaching" duties compare in Thailand and iin your previous teaching experience outside Thailand?

[PeaceBlondie]

My daughter is a public school teacher and she'll send me an email about her typical day. However, the life of a Thai teacher is totally irrelevant to how farang teachers do it, here or in Aberdeen.

[BlackArtemis]

What was required of me was

15hrs of teaching

In by 7:50am I could leave at 3pm, but if you stayed one or two days past that to talk to parents, it was very smiled upon. So you could plan these days and then tell your students what days parents could meet with you.

1.5hr lunch break, just be back 5 mins before class starts

You didn't have to be in your classroom when it was a Thai subject, but you should be on campus and easily reached. Ie, outside or in a quiet area.

Reading books etc is all fine and dandy, but personally I think grading papers and making lesson plans was much easier since it meant less work at home.

Depending on what was going on, you might have to prepare students for some sort of competition.

Other than sports day, family night, and parent orientation. I might have had 1 or 2 other weekend days per year.

Sports day would take up an ungodly amount of time, to practice running... Family Night, well that took up atleast 30hrs of teaching time in 2nd semester, which combined with sports day meant it was always a last minute rush to pack in everything before March. I found it easier to have students work on props etc during recess. They enjoyed coloring in the cooler rooms (3rd and 5th grade).

I had almost the full month of Oct. off, paid. And from Mid March to Mid May off, paid. I could be anywhere and do anything in the world that I wanted. I would travel stateside each October and come back to a paycheck in the bank.

This was at a Gov't school in Chiang Mai, I got about 7k or so less than some private schools in the area, but I felt my freedoms well made up for it.

Everyone is going to have a different experience. it was crazy sometimes and tempers flared at work of administration ideas etc. But now looking back on it, I miss it all.

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Cheers for the replies so far...

I don't think any of us has any issues with doing extra student related activities if we know there is a good reason for them , i.e. kids speaking English... but there is so much BS we are now 'expected' to do/attend to merely because (quote) "you are farang and get more so you should do more"... makes me crazy (Cheers Steve, I will quote them back your argument about the ratio of cost of living to salary.... it's true that even educated administrators clearly fail to grasp the notion of international supply/demand!)

keep on teachin'...

[Ijustwannateach]

I_F: I understand your point- and it's one of the reasons I am glad I am not a teacher in the US. They have the least support (depending on location and local economics) of almost any teachers in the English-speaking world. That doesn't mean it's the way things should be, either there or here. Society is lucky that people like your Mom were willing to be teachers in such unfavourable and poorly compensated situations (and it may say something about why education doesn't work on a shoestring, either there or here).

Jim: Another point of jealousy I have encountered is the 'long trip home' jealousy- again, you can point out that if they lived and worked so far away, they'd want to go home to their families occasionally, too- it's not as if you can take an overnight train and spend the weekend.

[stepenwolf1958]

It's very simple. Take a look at your Contracts. If there is no any clause about you have to do-then don't do it. Of course, you will have to confront to them about it and final result will be they will not renew Contract with you. Simple as that.

Good luck

[sawatdeeyesitsme]

I'm in a country school, so work really is the centre of our social life as well. I usually arrive well before 7.30 and leave after 16.30. I'm contracted for 24 hrs and teach 23hrs of classes a week. Although I'm at school for a long time each day, a lot of that is conversing with the other teachers, chatting with students, going on the internet, reading - as well as doing work related stuff!

I hold extra classes at weekends for my best students if their lesson is cancelled during the week for any reason. I don't mind doing that because I want to see them and they appreciate getting the chance to have extra practice time. I've helped out after hours for competitions and activies and come in at weekends sometimes.

The only time that I really have griped about extra activities was in my first month here. I was involved in an English competition, so I did 1 hour every afternoon extra training and at the weekend, 5 hours per Saturday and Sunday. That was more because I didn't really know how to deal with the teacher who was organising it and was eager to please in my first month. That did hack me off a little, especially when they said why was I not spending any time teaching the Thai teachers English!

[mongulstjohn]

My feeling is that if your after-hr activities benefit the students academically, then do it. If not, then complain. There is no need for you to do extra work so the kids can have more fun. They have enough fun during classes already! Kids are monsters. They will find a way to entertain themselves with or without your presence. What they need is more academics.

I teach 20 hrs a week. We have to work on two Saturdays per year, due to science camps. We get one week off for Songkran, one week for Chinese New Year, two weeks for Summer (July), and two weeks for Christmas. Working hrs are 0730-1600. However, lunch is only 30 minutes. I don't have any clubs or other activities. I do have various projects and field trips to supervise. The Thai department here works as much as our science department or the Chinese department. The culture around here is "Teach very well, then you can go home on time if you want."

[BlackArtemis]

I_F: I understand your point- and it's one of the reasons I am glad I am not a teacher in the US. They have the least support (depending on location and local economics) of almost any teachers in the English-speaking world. That doesn't mean it's the way things should be, either there or here. Society is lucky that people like your Mom were willing to be teachers in such unfavourable and poorly compensated situations (and it may say something about why education doesn't work on a shoestring, either there or here).

Jim: Another point of jealousy I have encountered is the 'long trip home' jealousy- again, you can point out that if they lived and worked so far away, they'd want to go home to their families occasionally, too- it's not as if you can take an overnight train and spend the weekend.

Yeah, but in the US we get IEP's and 504's. In Thailand you get "Poom can't be autistic, his family is Hi-So!!