Usufruct

[yabaaaa]

Following on from my previous post on this subject it was mentioned by" stgre" member he had successfuly done his usufruct at the Pranburi land office.

I have since found out from my wife when w e bought our land it was from the Sam Roi Yot office ( I thought it was Pranburi)

The Sam Roi Yot office are unwilling to do a usufruct ( their reason was big boss didnt like it). I know it c an be done if I pay enough money but my question is can I do a usufruct at the Pranburi office where it can be done ok with no tea money or as I bought the land and did the paperwork at Sam Roi Yot can I only do it there?

[Khun Jean]

In this case the land office is doing you a favor. A usufruct between you and your wife is not worth anything.

if my assumption is wrong (not between you and your wife) then they have to do it. Maybe use a local lawyer to have some 'weight'.

Many people working at the land office that is located in an area without too many 'farang' have no idea.

[stgrhe]

Sometime it is a matter of face saving when officers at rural land offices "rejects" usufruts because they simply do not know about them. Use a layer to do the work for you.

[happylarry]

Usufructs are like wills....you can get standard forms to use if you want a bog standard document, but if you want to cover every aspect that concerns you in your particular circumstances then it is a very good idea to spend a bit now and use a lawyer to draw the document up rather than regret it later.

Some lawyers specialise in usufructs and are aware of all the angles so it is better to find one of these. Seb at Isaan Lawyers is particularly good at getting these done.

HL

[yabaaaa]

In this case the land office is doing you a favor. A usufruct between you and your wife is not worth anything.

if my assumption is wrong (not between you and your wife) then they have to do it. Maybe use a local lawyer to have some 'weight'.

Many people working at the land office that is located in an area without too many 'farang' have no idea.

The sole reason for the usufruct is incase my wife dies theres no other reason i want this I am not interested in it if we divorce etc etc. Please explain how it will be of no use thanks?

The question still remains can i do it at ANY land office or only the one I originally did the deal with when buying it?

OK ive found the answer

"The usufruct interest in the real property in Thailand must be recorded in the official land registry of the local land office where the property is located" Thailandlawonline website

Edited January 25, 2010 by yabaaaa

[happylarry]

The actual reason behind the usufruct is the recording of your name on the actual title deed / chanote. Therefore you can only do this at the land office where your title deed is stored.

HL

[caf]

In this case the land office is doing you a favor. A usufruct between you and your wife is not worth anything.

if my assumption is wrong (not between you and your wife) then they have to do it. Maybe use a local lawyer to have some 'weight'.

Many people working at the land office that is located in an area without too many 'farang' have no idea.

The sole reason for the usufruct is incase my wife dies theres no other reason i want this I am not interested in it if we divorce etc etc. Please explain how it will be of no use thanks?

The question still remains can i do it at ANY land office or only the one I originally did the deal with when buying it?

OK ive found the answer

"The usufruct interest in the real property in Thailand must be recorded in the official land registry of the local land office where the property is located" Thailandlawonline website

I think what the poster who said it was of no use meant was - and his point is very valid and a helpful warning in general terms - is that a usufruct made during marriage can be voided by either party during marriage or one year after dissolution.

If your wife predeceases you and the usufruct is in place you still have the right to stay in the house and land to the end of the term ( up to 30 years or life whichever you choose) so in your case there would seem to be no problem.

The big chief at the land office may have been aware that foreigners have been badly caught out when a usufruct (not referring to a third party) is at a future time voided by the wife. They don't usually point out these points to farang and tend to support the Thai. More likely he was just showing off his power.

caf

[yabaaaa]

In this case the land office is doing you a favor. A usufruct between you and your wife is not worth anything.

if my assumption is wrong (not between you and your wife) then they have to do it. Maybe use a local lawyer to have some 'weight'.

Many people working at the land office that is located in an area without too many 'farang' have no idea.

The sole reason for the usufruct is incase my wife dies theres no other reason i want this I am not interested in it if we divorce etc etc. Please explain how it will be of no use thanks?

The question still remains can i do it at ANY land office or only the one I originally did the deal with when buying it?

OK ive found the answer

"The usufruct interest in the real property in Thailand must be recorded in the official land registry of the local land office where the property is located" Thailandlawonline website

I think what the poster who said it was of no use meant was - and his point is very valid and a helpful warning in general terms - is that a usufruct made during marriage can be voided by either party during marriage or one year after dissolution.

If your wife predeceases you and the usufruct is in place you still have the right to stay in the house and land to the end of the term ( up to 30 years or life whichever you choose) so in your case there would seem to be no problem.

The big chief at the land office may have been aware that foreigners have been badly caught out when a usufruct (not referring to a third party) is at a future time voided by the wife. They don't usually point out these points to farang and tend to support the Thai. More likely he was just showing off his power.

caf

Actually I think the big chief wants money to do it and thats the sole reason so we will be using a lawyer. about 15k apparently.

[CDNinKS]

Well just got my Usfruct education here in Hua Hin. Went to the land office first, of course got the run around. Claimed first that they never heard of a Usfruct, then when pressured, said it was void if the granter of the usfruct died. I knew this was not the case, but gave up and went to see a lawyer. He tried to talk me out of the Usfruct idea and go for a lease, which would have meant 5-8000 baht in tax and he wanted 15,000 baht for his services.

Got my gf to read up about Usfructs in Thai so she knew what the law was. Went back to the land office and had sort of the same story, but when pressed it came down to tea money. Long story short, 10,000 baht later all was signed sealed and delivered with my name on the chanot.

TIT

[yabaaaa]

Yes I knew it was the case at HH, it should really cost about 100 baht!!

[yabaaaa]

Can the land office refuse a usufruct and why? The office at Sam Roi Yot are afraid of the "big boss" and told us he didnt like usufructs, fer gawd sakes what the point of having any laws.

They have said wait a while he will be leaving soon apparently................. no doubt when his usufruct slush fund is maxxed out!

[stgrhe]

Can the land office refuse a usufruct and why? The office at Sam Roi Yot are afraid of the "big boss" and told us he didnt like usufructs, fer gawd sakes what the point of having any laws.

They have said wait a while he will be leaving soon apparently................. no doubt when his usufruct slush fund is maxxed out!

Have you considered taking the case to the Ombudsman here in Thailand if "the big boss" still refuses the usufruct? There is actually an Ombudsman act from 1999 and section 2 of the act defines the duties and powers of the Ombudsman.

You can find the entire law text here http://www.thailaws.com/

Personally I would never accept a Thai civil servant's wrongdoing without a fight.

[CDNinKS]

I should mention that the person at the land office told us that even if we would have gone thru a lawyer, he would have had to pay tea money as well......that is why his fee was so high.

Personally I would never accept a Thai civil servant's wrongdoing without a fight.

I agree that this would be unacceptable in my home country and I would have the cops in there in a heart beat.....but alas this is Thailand and if I did the farang thing and raised a stink, I might have gotten it done eventually, but would have made enemies in the process and I may need to use this land office again sometime. I plan on living here in HH forever so it will just be Jai yin yin

[yabaaaa]

Can the land office refuse a usufruct and why? The office at Sam Roi Yot are afraid of the "big boss" and told us he didnt like usufructs, fer gawd sakes what the point of having any laws.

They have said wait a while he will be leaving soon apparently................. no doubt when his usufruct slush fund is maxxed out!

Have you considered taking the case to the Ombudsman here in Thailand if "the big boss" still refuses the usufruct? There is actually an Ombudsman act from 1999 and section 2 of the act defines the duties and powers of the Ombudsman.

You can find the entire law text here http://www.thailaws.com/

Personally I would never accept a Thai civil servant's wrongdoing without a fight.

Thanks for the link and replies, my wifes says they will make it difficult for us, for example asking where the money came from to buy the land, It was part mine part hers ok maybe 75% mine 25% hers but surely irrelevant as I signed the "this land belongs to my wife if we divorce" paper.

I will probably use the lawyer, the "Bastar*s. I think Sam Roi Yot want to do but fear the big boss.

[stgrhe]

I should mention that the person at the land office told us that even if we would have gone thru a lawyer, he would have had to pay tea money as well......that is why his fee was so high.

Personally I would never accept a Thai civil servant's wrongdoing without a fight.

I agree that this would be unacceptable in my home country and I would have the cops in there in a heart beat.....but alas this is Thailand and if I did the farang thing and raised a stink, I might have gotten it done eventually, but would have made enemies in the process and I may need to use this land office again sometime. I plan on living here in HH forever so it will just be Jai yin yin

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my statement, I would of course let my wife do the fighting part and she wouldn't be afraid to fight the system being a senior civil servant herself. 

[CDNinKS]

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my statement, I would of course let my wife do the fighting part and she wouldn't be afraid to fight the system being a senior civil servant herself.

Ahhhh, yes that would make a big difference