I Can't Cope Without My Wife In Uk

[the scouser]

For information; it would be impossible for anyone who is an overstayer in the UK, or otherwise in the UK illegally, to legally marry in the UK.

Not all visa categories allow the holder to marry in the UK, and in order to do so they would need to present evidence that their immigration status allowed them to or obtain a certificate of approval from the Home Office. Neither of which would be possible were one in the UK illegally.

I'm sure the above is well intended advice, but it is legally wrong. Unfortunately, the standard of UK immigration advice on this site is not what it was.

In the first instance, refer to the UKBA's own guidance at:-

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecont...a/coa_guide.pdf

and for those who are of a more legal mindset, refer to:-

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d...;method=boolean

Essentially, the right to marry is not qualified. If one is illegally in the UK, you can be turfed out, but the authorities can't stop you from marrying in the first instance.

Scouse.

[7by7]

Apology accepted, tigerfish, no hard feelings.

BTW, I always recommend that when time qualified an ILR holder applies for naturalisation as British. British nationality cannot lapse, no matter how long one stays out of the UK, neither does it ever expire. Both the UK and Thailand allow dual nationality.

Now, back to the topic........

[7by7]

Unfortunately, the standard of UK immigration advice on this site is not what it was.

Do you mean since you stopped being a regular contributer?

If so, the solution is simple, come back more regularly. Advice from a qualified professional is always welcome.

I do, though accept that my 'advice' was out of date, as the CoA application guidance notes state

2 QUALIFYING FOR A CERTIFICATE OF APPROVAL

One of the criteria for being issued with a COA is that your current permitted stay (otherwise known as leave to enter or remain) in the UK must be for more than 6 months and you must have at least 3 months of your permitted stay remaining when you apply for a COA. You may still apply if you have permission to stay but it is not as described above, or even if your permitted stay has expired. However, to comply with High Court and Court of Appeal judgments, we may write to you for further information to enable us to be satisfied that your proposed marriage or civil partnership is genuine - see page 4 of these guidance notes.

I can't help suspecting, however, that an application from an illegal entrant/overstayer may result in a visit from enforcement officers with a view to removal!

[NanLaew]

Although the OP is broken hearted at his spouses unfortunate situation, I would question who suggested the trip to Thailand to get married in the first place? Be honest now.

Has the OP registered their Thai marriage in the UK via the British Embassy? That may be go towards indicating that a sustainable marriage is what the couple intend despite the UK governments feelings to the contrary. Having said that, some desk jockey at the HO may see this as just another subterfuge by a criminal-minded couple, hel_l-bent on draining the UK's social services coffers!

[7by7]

Has the OP registered their Thai marriage in the UK via the British Embassy?

One cannot register a marriage at the British embassy. I believe that under Thai law the only place to register a marriage in Thailand is at an ampur. Under UK law a legal Thai marriage is a legal marriage in the UK too.

All one can do is use the embassy to deposit a copy of the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) in the UK. This is not a legal obligation and not doing so does not effect the validity of the marriage under UK law. Most couples don't bother.

[NanLaew]

^ That's what i meant 7by !

OK, so by what legal precedent is this legal Thai Amphur registered marriage suddenly recognised as legal and binding in the UK if the GRO registration isn't worth the effort? I mean do you just say, 'We are married and here's a bit of paper with pretty colours and squiggly foreign writing to prove it.' ?

[paully]

OK, so by what legal precedent is this legal Thai Amphur registered marriage suddenly recognised as legal and binding in the UK if the GRO registration isn't worth the effort? I mean do you just say, 'We are married and here's a bit of paper with pretty colours and squiggly foreign writing to prove it.' ?

A legal marriage in any country is automatically recognised as a legal marriage in the UK - the only issue is whether it is fully legal or just a ceremony. Once the marriage is legal in Thailand by going to the Amphur, it is legal in the UK if the parties happen to move there. The only issue - as you've identified - is that the Thai Marriage Certificate needs to be translated into English, so that the authorities can read it.

So, in effect, yes, you do say 'we are married and...'

[7by7]

OK, so by what legal precedent is this legal Thai Amphur registered marriage suddenly recognised as legal and binding in the UK

Foreign Marriage Act 1892

That's not a typo, it is 1892. Not so sudden, methinks.

[Castor83]

One important question here is when did you wife leave the UK and under what circumstances?

I was in a similar boat to OP, and my wife - then gf, left literally just before the 'amnesty' ended. She was adament that if she stayed later than 1st Oct 2008 she would be banned for ten years. I was happily living in ignorance back then and assumed all she needed to do was apply for a visa and she would get it.

I dunno what your particular situation is, but an EEA permit is worth looking into if you can trace any kind of EU roots. I for one can say that they are alot more leniant with these. Our fiance visa was rejected and our EEA permit granted within a few weeks. Both the applications were pretty identical, say for the fact we were married when we applied for EEA permit. Oh, and I didn;t answer a couple of questions wrong, meaning I had lied on the form like i did with fiance visa. So perhaps not identical...

Talk to a good solicitor. There are always ways around these things. For example, even if you are not an EEA national of some sort you could always go work in Ireland for a month or two, then on your return she will be eligible for an EEA permit to come and join you in UK.

The guy who was spouting off about going to Thailand because it is "corrupt" out there... It is just as corrupt here mate. It just costs a little bit more money. And you pay it to the solicitor middle man, rather than the government...

[7by7]

Post deleted, and a reminder.

The OP and his wife are aware of the previous breaches of immigration law, and are now suffering the consequences. The rules do allow for settlement in situations like this and it is now up to an immigration tribunal to decide if they have a genuine case or not.

Any further posts lambasting the OP for his wife's past misdemeanors will be deemed as flaming and deleted.

[ScienceGuy]

I think you should tell your government to go to hel_l. Seriously. Vote with your feet and leave those crusty Brits on their rainy, cold, isolated island with their "perfect" laws that never cause people to suffer or separate families.

USA is exactly the same. None of my friends and family understand why I will never go back to the US but the truth is because it would cause me to be separated from my one true love and have to live as a wage-slave for eternity under an oppressive legal system of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich.

Anyway, see you at the beach...

[phetpeter]

Thanks all - good to know alot of the info you have written. spoken with solicitor today and feel a little more upbeat but still not great. seems that it could come down to simply whether the Judge on the day of the hearing is in a good or bad mood and whether he believes that me and my wife are genuine and in a sustainable marriage to possibly outweigh the 320 (11) breaches. as we met every other criteria of the para 281 except the sustainable marriage bit - will be gathering mountain loads of evidence to produce.

does anyone, from previous hearings, have a good checklist of evidence that can prove a 3.5 year relationship and marriage (with the intent to live together and start a family). also going to try the EHR on the right to have a family as it could be deemed unfair to expect me to move to Thailand (different culture, language, living standards, pay) but again have to ensure our positives outweighs the HOs negatives.

anyone also know what extra the HO usually brings to the tribunal? will they carry out Police checks on me and my wife (one caution nearly 10 years ago)? speak to friends and family? or are they only allow to bring new evidence to back up the existing refusal notes (i.e. not a character assassination)?

Excuse me is this a joke! 3.5 years this post smells? why? Because 1. If she left the UK under her own steam after being found to be an overstay. No problem.., If she was escorted under the government costs out of the country, there are time limits before re-entry is permitted unless is has recieved a conviction/ sentance in the UK. 2, If you are legally married and are in the relationship and can prove with letters email copies if you are seperated now due to refusal to enter. and hang on for 4 years...Then she and you have the automatic right for her to enter the UK. UNLESS you are not telling us everything??? Such as you are long term unemployed, or have some form of legal bar against you or your wife, a caution ten years old would not count unless it has attached some other order???

[phetpeter]

Has the OP registered their Thai marriage in the UK via the British Embassy?

One cannot register a marriage at the British embassy. I believe that under Thai law the only place to register a marriage in Thailand is at an ampur. Under UK law a legal Thai marriage is a legal marriage in the UK too.

All one can do is use the embassy to deposit a copy of the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) in the UK. This is not a legal obligation and not doing so does not effect the validity of the marriage under UK law. Most couples don't bother.

Well there you go! most don't bother! and now when prove is needed they start moaning how hard done by they are. The UK isn't perfect and yes just like in Thailand you can make things differcult, when a smile and keeping ones mouth shut may have got the job done! We look into the story and he met her in the UK and god! that sounds just like someone we know here in Phetchabun. She and her family are bleeding him dry and all he can say (being the second hes done married into this problem both out of the UK) He loves her and doesn't know what he will do if they can't be together!

[7by7]

Excuse me is this a joke! 3.5 years this post smells? why? Because 1. If she left the UK under her own steam after being found to be an overstay. No problem.., If she was escorted under the government costs out of the country, there are time limits before re-entry is permitted unless is has recieved a conviction/ sentance in the UK.

I assume that you are referring to the provisions of Para 320(7B) of the Immigration Rules. However, Para 320(7C) makes it clear that these provisions do not apply when, among other circumstances, the applicant is applying as a spouse under paragraphs 281 or 295A.

Refusals in such circumstances come under Para 320(11), where the 'offence' needs to have been more serious and the refusal can be appealed against.

2, If you are legally married and are in the relationship and can prove with letters email copies if you are seperated now due to refusal to enter. and hang on for 4 years...Then she and you have the automatic right for her to enter the UK.

This is the first I have heard of such an automatic right. I'd be grateful if you would provide more details, preferably with a link to the appropriate part of the Immigration Rules or some other UKBA publication.

[7by7]

Has the OP registered their Thai marriage in the UK via the British Embassy?

One cannot register a marriage at the British embassy. I believe that under Thai law the only place to register a marriage in Thailand is at an ampur. Under UK law a legal Thai marriage is a legal marriage in the UK too.

All one can do is use the embassy to deposit a copy of the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) in the UK. This is not a legal obligation and not doing so does not effect the validity of the marriage under UK law. Most couples don't bother.

Well there you go! most don't bother! and now when prove is needed they start moaning how hard done by they are.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point. If at any time a couple who married in Thailand need to prove to anyone at the British embassy or in the UK that they are married, whether it's for immigration, tax, national insurance or any other purpose, then their Thai marriage certificate, with a certified translation, is all that is required.

We have certainly found that to be the case, as has every couple we know.

The only advantage of depositing a copy of the certificate at the GRO is that if in the UK and you lose the certificate then you can get a copy from there rather than having to contact the ampur in Thailand that originally issued it. Whether you think this is worth the Baht 2,088 fee is up to you.

[MAJIC]

By reading the original post:

1) He met her in the UK where she was already illegally living.

2) He encouraged her to get a job and work illegally.

3) He then got her to use the NHS for what sounds like a serious illness.

4) Her family are not her actual blood relatives, but his family, which he is refering to as her family.

Here's where I am guessing:

5) After 3.5 years together in the UK they leave for Thailand to marry and get her a visa for the UK.

6) They have admitted to her illegal entry and stay in the UK, illegal working etc. on the application form and been refused.

[/quot]

Some further relevant questions to the unclear post.

1.Is your marriage a legal one recognised in the UK?

2.You say you met your wife in the UK,which indicates a previous Sponsor,is this correct?

3.I and others do not understand why you bothered to go to Thailand to get married when a Registry office wedding in the Uk would have been more beneficial?

4.And finally how did she enter the UK after the Wedding in Thailand illegally?

[eurasianthai]

I really don't know what to do - my wifes setttlement visa refused - I haven't been able to sleep for last 2 weeks, i've lost 8 kg in that time due to not eating well and I am now about to begin counselling to help me with my thoughts.

1. Why did not you organize for the visa before you left Thailand?

2. Why did you leave her alone in Thailand?

3. You'r beginning counselling? You should have done it before coming to Thailand

[MAJIC]

^ That's what i meant 7by !

OK, so by what legal precedent is this legal Thai Amphur registered marriage suddenly recognised as legal and binding in the UK if the GRO registration isn't worth the effort? I mean do you just say, 'We are married and here's a bit of paper with pretty colours and squiggly foreign writing to prove it.' ?

Exactly as you stated,no Ceremony no vows and yes the pretty marriage certicate is issued there and then,and recognised as a legal wedding in the UK.

[7by7]

Majic,

I can't answer for the OP, and wouldn't want to, but from what has been posted so far:-

1) They registered it an an ampur, so yes.

2) Not necessarily, it depends on what type of visa she entered on. We don't know exactly what the refusal notice said, but the OP hasn't mentioned concerns over a previous sponsor.

3) In order to marry in the UK she would have needed to apply to the Home Office for a Certificate of Approval. This would have brought her status as an illegal to their attention and could have resulted in a visit by an enforcement team to arrest and remove her. Also, AFAIK, even if they had married in the UK, this would not have conferred any residency rights on her and she would have had to return to Thailand and apply there or remain in the UK illegally.

4) She didn't enter the UK after the wedding; she is still in Thailand as her spouse visa was refused.

Edited January 31, 2010 by 7by7

[wkbglobal]

If you really love her as said then it should not matter where you live so long as you are together and the two of you are true to each other. You will get on with your life, be it in England or Thailand or where ever and make the best of the situation and work as hard as you can to provide for her and to make the life better for both of you. Love knows no boundaries and as my Mum says - should you have to part - distance also make the heart grow fonder. Being honest and hardworking has it's rewards, it is only a blimp in the road - adapt to the situation.

[coolhandjoe]

The OP has mentioned a refusal under Para 320(11), which is the catch-all for those deemed to have contrived to "frustrate the intentions of the Immigration Rules", i.e.not only entered illegally or overstayed, but committed some further misdemeanour in relation to their immigration status. The instructions to ECOs gives the following list of examples, but says it is not limited to those:-

"Aggravating circumstances can include actions such as:

absconding;

not complying with temporary admission / temporary reporting conditions / bail conditions;

not complying with reporting restrictions;

failing to comply with removal directions (RDs) after port refusal of leave to enter (RLE);

failing to comply with RDs after illegal entry;

previous working in breach on visitor conditions within short time of arrive in the UK (ie pre-meditated intention to work);

previous recourse to NHS treatment when not entitled;

previous receipt of benefits (income, housing, child, incapacity or otherwise) or NASS benefits when not entitled;

using an assumed identity or multiple identities;

previous use of a different identity or multiple identities for deceptive reasons;

vexatious attempts to prevent removal from the UK, eg feigning illness;

active attempt to frustrate arrest or detention by UK Border Agency or police;

a sham marriage / marriage of convenience / polygamous marriage in the UK;

harbouring an immigration offender;

facilitation / people smuggling;

escaping from UK Border Agency detention;

switching of nationality;

vexatious or frivolous applications;

not complying with re-documentation process.

All cases must be considered on their merits, the activities considered in the round to see whether they meet the threshold under paragraph 320 (11), taking into account family life in the UK and, in the case of children, the level of responsibility for the breach."

So the applicant's case will hinge on what she got up to whilst illegally in the UK, and whether the ECO is judged to have adequately taken into account her marriage to the OP. As he has divulged nothing of the actual reasons for refusal, any estimate of her chances is pure speculation.

By the way, I didn't understand this from Tigerfish:- "she now has her 25 years residency visa"

it is a resident permit. settlement, with indefinite leave to remain in the u.k.

Did she have to pass the Life in the U.K test or take a ESOL course in order to obtain thr ILR/Resident permit?

Or is ILR/resident permit given after 25 years?

[jboras]

Thanks all - good to know alot of the info you have written. spoken with solicitor today and feel a little more upbeat but still not great. seems that it could come down to simply whether the Judge on the day of the hearing is in a good or bad mood and whether he believes that me and my wife are genuine and in a sustainable marriage to possibly outweigh the 320 (11) breaches. as we met every other criteria of the para 281 except the sustainable marriage bit - will be gathering mountain loads of evidence to produce.

does anyone, from previous hearings, have a good checklist of evidence that can prove a 3.5 year relationship and marriage (with the intent to live together and start a family). also going to try the EHR on the right to have a family as it could be deemed unfair to expect me to move to Thailand (different culture, language, living standards, pay) but again have to ensure our positives outweighs the HOs negatives.

anyone also know what extra the HO usually brings to the tribunal? will they carry out Police checks on me and my wife (one caution nearly 10 years ago)? speak to friends and family? or are they only allow to bring new evidence to back up the existing refusal notes (i.e. not a character assassination)?

1. Prove your 3.5 year relationship with photos over 3.5 years, statement from friends, joint bank accounts over the last 3.5 years. Surely you did something as a couple over 3.5 years....

2. A sustainable marriage is normally considred after 2 years..... not just saying living together... married! Normally this period is shortened if there is a child from the relationship.

3. Police checks will be on your "wife" this is the final process if all else is Ok for her to enter UK as a spouse. You are already British,... not much they can do about you...

Lok on the bright side... living in Thailand 2 or so years is not that bad .... to get all your documents in order for that final move...

You must understand the concern the embassy has.. she was there illegally... why? Who sponsored her to get over there in the first instance.. another perspective spouse?... if anything I think the embassy would be trying to protect you first.......from being used...

[jboras]

"we apologised for the previous breaches..."

Ah, then all is well. "We're sorry we got involved in illegal shenanigans, that we lied, cheated, and stole...but we never lost our integrity!"

I'm reminded of Steve Martin's excuse of "I forgot". Didn't you know it was illegal to sneak in a country? Hey, I forgot! Didn't you know that it was illegal to work? Hey, I forgot! Didn't you know it was against the law to kill someone? Hey, I forgot!

If you are not just taking the wrap for all these illegal activities your partner commited (which I am sorry to say it sounds like from all I've read... and I am sure the interviewing offricer would be more inclined to think so too)....to justify to your embassy why she did what she did... just show some concrete evidence.. saying sorry is not concrete evidence... and posting all your regrets here may not help your case...

Edited January 31, 2010 by jboras

[ronz28]

Could the two of you live in Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere... where both of you could earn a good living vs. Thailand....if the UK won't change their position?

[ppmacready]

Let's not veer into the abusive towards the OP.

I think we can all agree he (plus she)'s not gone about it in quite the right way and that the appeal will be a tricky one based on what we can surmise so far, despite his solicitor making him feel 'more upbeat'.

My ha'pennoth of advice? The OP needs to work on the genuine and sustainable marriage issue - clearly this was not believed in the original application and a lot of evidence plus argument will be needed to turn this around. At least the OP's wife admitted her previous breaches, so she has a ghost of a chance of success.

Try telling them ''she's special'' thats the one my mates all ways use!

[7by7]

By the way, I didn't understand this from Tigerfish:- "she now has her 25 years residency visa"

it is a resident permit. settlement, with indefinite leave to remain in the u.k.

Did she have to pass the Life in the U.K test or take a ESOL course in order to obtain thr ILR/Resident permit?

Or is ILR/resident permit given after 25 years?

Yes, anyone applying for ILR has to first satisfy the KOL requirement, unless they are in one of the exempted categories listed on this page.

No one, not even tigerfish, is sure where he got this 25 years period from. Spouses are time qualified for ILR after living in the UK for 2 years and ILR has no time limit. See earlier posts.

[7by7]

2. A sustainable marriage is normally considred after 2 years..... not just saying living together... married! Normally this period is shortened if there is a child from the relationship.

3. Police checks will be on your "wife" this is the final process if all else is Ok for her to enter UK as a spouse.

Please indicate where you obtained this information from, as it is the first I have heard of it.

[Richard W]

Is the marriage to someone in the UK who is here illegaly, valid.

It's valid even if you lie to the celebrant to persuade him to conduct the marriage - or so I was told by a registrar.

The background to that is that someone claimed that if the MFA 'legalisation' of the affirmation of freedom to marry were faked, a marriage conducted on the basis of it at a Thai amphur would not be valid. At the time I asked, the possibility that the legalisation might have been faked threatened to turn my British-born daughter and her British-born children into illegal immigrants, because it seemed that the legality of any British marriage of my daughter would turn on the legalisation being genuine. The registrar assured me that its genuineness would not affect the legality of her (future) marriage in Britain, though any deception of the official would be a criminal matter. Since then, the British-born children of British fathers are now born British regardless of whether their parents are married, so the worry is greatly lessened.

[spongeman]

One important question here is when did you wife leave the UK and under what circumstances?

I was in a similar boat to OP, and my wife - then gf, left literally just before the 'amnesty' ended. She was adament that if she stayed later than 1st Oct 2008 she would be banned for ten years. I was happily living in ignorance back then and assumed all she needed to do was apply for a visa and she would get it.

I dunno what your particular situation is, but an EEA permit is worth looking into if you can trace any kind of EU roots. I for one can say that they are alot more leniant with these. Our fiance visa was rejected and our EEA permit granted within a few weeks. Both the applications were pretty identical, say for the fact we were married when we applied for EEA permit. Oh, and I didn;t answer a couple of questions wrong, meaning I had lied on the form like i did with fiance visa. So perhaps not identical...

Talk to a good solicitor. There are always ways around these things. For example, even if you are not an EEA national of some sort you could always go work in Ireland for a month or two, then on your return she will be eligible for an EEA permit to come and join you in UK.

The guy who was spouting off about going to Thailand because it is "corrupt" out there... It is just as corrupt here mate. It just costs a little bit more money. And you pay it to the solicitor middle man, rather than the government...

Good advice there.

[7by7]

you could always go work in Ireland for a month or two, then on your return she will be eligible for an EEA permit to come and join you in UK.

I believe that she would have to live with the OP in Ireland first; i.e. get an EEA permit for the RoI and then an EEA permit for the UK when they moved back to the UK.