Thai Army Defends The Effectiveness Of Gt200 Bomb Detector

[jayboy]

"The Central Forensic Science Institute also used the GT 200."

I can take it that the Thai police and army are stupid. But the Central Forensic Science Institute too? I mean Khunying?

No.

Meanwhile, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand, director of the Forensic Science Institute and who always uses the GT200, said the UK had only banned the ADE651.

She said the detector was effective when searching for bombs and even nails under water.

I hope that now people can understand why I do not have much respect her. She seems to have never met a microphone that she didn't like. Unfortunately, this position will undercut her credibility. I wonder if she watched too many Quincy, ME shows,

I couldn't agree more. She is in the limelight far far too much. The fact that she thinks this machine works says it all. Why would you want to find nails under water anyway?

This machine is quite odd, in the fact that wouldn't sniffer dogs achieve largely the same result and 1/10th of the price?

Couldn't really care one way another about the overhyped Dr Pornthip, the sort of Thai that a particular type of farang latches on to.What's more interesting is the pack of lies relating to the GT200 that's making a sortable problem into a huge one for the government and the military.

[Asa]

The owner has been jailed, becuase the darn thing does not work? Why somebody would defend it? If it works like magic with 30% result, better use magic forked sticks.

[webfact]

UPDATE

UK warns world about useless 'bomb detectors' : BBC

A UK government will now be urgently warning all governments who may have bought devices such as the ADE651 and GT200 as they are "wholly ineffective" at detecting bombs and explosives, the British Foreign Office has told the BBC.

The ADE651 is made by a company from Somerset called ATSC. The director of the company, Jim McCormick, was arrested at the beginning of this month on suspicion of misrepresentation.

The GT200 which has been used in deep southern provinces of Thailand is sold by Global Technical in Kent.

The UK government has banned the export of "magic wand" bomb detectors to Iraq and Afghanistan becomes effective on 27 January.

The restriction is being imposed following a BBC Newsnight investigation which showed that the supposed detectors were incapable of detecting explosives or anything else.

There are concerns that they have failed to stop bomb attacks which have killed hundreds of people.

Thailand is not covered by the UK ban. Their MPs are calling for the withdrawal of 500 GT200 detectors after a number of deaths were blamed on their failure to find explosives.

Thailand's Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban has tried to reassure MPs that the GT200 is not like the ADE651: "We use a different brand," he said.

Despite advice from the British embassy in Baghdad, the ADE651 is still in use on checkpoints in Iraq, while an investigation ordered by the Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki continues.

In Pakistan, which is not covered by Britain's export ban, rows have broken out after newspapers highlighted the continued use of similar devices at Jinnah International Airport in Islamabad.

The devices are also in use in Mexico, Kenya, Lebanon, Jordan and China.

Tests reveal 'bomb detector' cannot work

Newsnight obtained a GT200 that was sold as a bomb detector and discovered that it was almost identical to the ADE651.

It consists of an aerial on a handle connected to a black box into which you are supposed to insert substance detection cards.

The head of Global Technical, Gary Bolton, told Newsnight: "There are no electronic parts required in the handle."

Explosives expert Sidney Alford took apart the "black box" of the GT200, which is supposed to receive signals from the detection cards. He was surprised at what he found.

"Speaking as a professional, I would say that is an empty plastic case," he told us.

Alford also took apart a "detection card" and found there was nothing in it other than card and paper.

Gary Bolton from Global Technical told the BBC that the lack of electronic parts "does not mean it does not operate to the specification".

-- The Nation 2010-01-28

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Hawk]

Thai scammers finally outwitted by a foreigner, the guy should receive an award.

See the news on the television the army stand behind the plastic gadget, 100%. The thing is secretly being made in China, for 50 baht, then sent to England where it is being resold for millions.

As the Thai's believe in magic amulets and such like, then a magic plastic "thing" is right up their street.

[Nuchanart]

Quote taken from the Nation http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/01/26...cs_30121150.php

In response to reporters' angry questions about the British-made scanner, Army chief Anupong Paochinda shot back: "Is the company using you to ask these questions?"

Joint Military Police Civilian Taskforce commander Lt-General Kasikorn Kirisri said the GT200 scanner was very useful in detecting and preventing explosions in the deep South, where violent incidents on an almost daily basis have killed more than 3,900 people to date.

"Not using the bomb detector may affect efforts to restore peace in the deep South," he warned, adding that there might have been some problems with the detector, but they mostly involved human error.

===== =

I am sure this device work. If not, why would great people like Army chief Anupong & well respected Khun Ponthip defense the purchase. Don't you even suggest that they get a cut (purchase at 1,200,000 Baht but similar product only cost 159 Baht http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/01/29...cs_30121416.php ). They could send you to jail for destroying their reputation.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Nuchanart

[Reasonableman]

Must be attached to the bombs, along with the ball bearings, marbles, bolts, etc... ?

And nails as well?

But what's the point of looking for wet, rusty old nails?

[webfact]

UPDATE

Govt ready to clarify bomb detector scandal

BANGKOK: -- 29 January 2010 (NNT) - Deputy Prime Minister for Security Affairs Suthep Thaugsuban said the government was ready to clarify the criticisms over the ineffectiveness of bomb detectors GT 200.

The device has been heavily criticized for its inability to detect bombs, mostly used by army officers operating in the deep south. Other criticisms have been made about the price of the bomb detectors which have been bought three times the amount of the actual value.

The deputy prime minister however urged the public to understand the need for the bomb detectors GT 200 for officers operating in dangerous areas where a bomb detecting equipment is needed to ensure safety.

Mr Suthep said that the bomb detectors were bought in 2004 and they were tested for effectiveness. He said that he would not blame anyone on the purchasing but an anti-corruption inspection board would have to be established in order to investigate the device.

-- NNT 2010-01-29

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Thai at Heart]

I am sure this device work. If not, why would great people like Army chief Anupong & well respected Khun Ponthip defense the purchase. Don't you even suggest that they get a cut (purchase at 1,200,000 Baht but similar product only cost 159 Baht http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/01/29...cs_30121416.php ). They could send you to jail for destroying their reputation.

I think the most beautiful part of this issue is that the scam is so blatantly obvious and yet, in their sheer desire to spend, military forces the world over have gone and bought piece of metal stuck to a plastic handle for thousands of USD a piece.

My faith in human nature is somewhat resurrected in that this story does prove, that there is indeed, one born every minute.

They'll probably dig a little further and find out that Thaksin owns the company.

[pitanu]

is this bought off amazon.com or from a mail-order catalogue, if so, is there a refund or limited warranty on these items?

i mean it was sold by an ex-british policeman (even though he looks like a serial killer) and all the recommendations and product reviews seemed okay. i don't mean to point the figure (antennae) at anyone, but i really would like my money back, excluding my london home, my kids education in the uk, etc. cause otherwise i'll be in deep shit now that pm abhisit has shown interest.

[Donnyboy]

some heads need to roll

According to a November New York Times article, ATSC was peddling the devices in Iraq at prices ranging from US$16,500 to $60,000 each. The Thai Army reportedly has bought 535 GT 200 devices at a cost ranging from Bt900,000 (US$27,250 to Bt1.2 million for add-ons, according to Lt Gen Daopong Rattansuwan, the deputy army chief of staff, before a house committee in October last year

source

[camerata]

Nothing beats this defence of the GT200 by a Thai military man:

The effectiveness of the bomb detector depends largely on the physical and mental conditions and judgement of the handler. He said that he once tested the effectiveness of the detector by not sleeping the whole night and using the device the following day with the result that the device did not function at all and could not detect anything. But the following night, he had a sound sleep and enough food and the result was impressive.

The sergeant said that if he feels not physically or mentally fit on any day, he would not go out to search for explosives and would ask his colleagues to do on his behalf. He added that he has been trying to keep physically and mentally fit so as to be ready to perform his job anytime as required. “You must not be hungry, feel wanting to relieve yourself in the toilet otherwise the GT200 will not work effectively.”

Full story: In Praise of GT200 Bomb Detector

[Soutpeel]

Nothing beats this defence of the GT200 by a Thai military man:

The effectiveness of the bomb detector depends largely on the physical and mental conditions and judgement of the handler. He said that he once tested the effectiveness of the detector by not sleeping the whole night and using the device the following day with the result that the device did not function at all and could not detect anything. But the following night, he had a sound sleep and enough food and the result was impressive.

The sergeant said that if he feels not physically or mentally fit on any day, he would not go out to search for explosives and would ask his colleagues to do on his behalf. He added that he has been trying to keep physically and mentally fit so as to be ready to perform his job anytime as required. "You must not be hungry, feel wanting to relieve yourself in the toilet otherwise the GT200 will not work effectively."

Full story: In Praise of GT200 Bomb Detector

........ .......Guess who ever wrote this was lacking in sleep when they put pen to paper...

Guess we are delving into the realms of amulets and magic tattoo's as well....

[Jackrabbit]

I hope Thailand never needs to depend upon the top military brass to actually defend the country because their IQ must be in the single digit range.

Nobody with any sense at all would continue to use the GT200 toys.

It should have been obvious to anyone that these were worthless before they were ever purchased.

Reminds me of the quack medical devices of the 1800s.[/b]

[cavelight]

The GT200 is a dowsing device. Dowsing is the biggest load of nonsense ever dreamed up by anyone, ever.

The world's most expert debunker, James Randi, logically destroys it:

Anyone involved in the debate should read it - you won't need to read anything else...

By far the most common claim made for the Million Dollar Challenge offered by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) is dowsing.

Dowsing is as strictly defined the claimed ability to discover underground sources of water or metals by means of a "dowsing rod." Another term used is "divining." However, this terminology and its scope have been expanded and is now used with a far greater range of meanings. Dowsing now includes the claimed ability to discover almost anything, from water and minerals to missing children and archaeological sites. Each dowser will have his or her specialty. The device any dowser will use ranges from the traditional forked stick to just the bare hand. Pendulums, bent wires, wands of various sorts, and swiveled rods and housings are commonly encountered. In every case, the device used is a system in a state of unstable equilibrium, something that cannot easily be kept in a steady condition, and which is subject to very slight tremors, twitches, or changes of inclination. We've seen an astonishing variety of metal springs, coils, wires, balls, threads and bobbing elastic devices, all trembling and vibrating freely, used as dowsing machinery.

Currently, several “scientific” versions of dowsing rods which purportedly contain actual electronic circuitry, are being sold to government agencies in the USA for very high prices, as much as $14,000. One such stick, known as the “DKL LifeGuard,” is endorsed and validated by scientists who certainly should know better.

Little Agreement

Dowsers seldom agree on the basics of their claims. Some will insist that rubber footwear or footwear made of other insulating materials must be used by the operator, while an equal number insist that such materials inhibit the effect , and must never be used. Those who use stiff wires bent at right angles and held in each hand parallel to the ground, may say that the wires will cross one another when the sought-after object or substance is encountered; just as many say that the wires will diverge. Every dowser has his or her own personal theory, rules and preferred techniques.

Some claim that their power is divine in nature. Some say that dowsing is a learned art. Most claim that anyone can dowse successfully, while others say that it is an inherited gift. Some deny that it is in any way "paranormal," while some embrace that definition. Dowsers will often scoff at the claims of other dowsers, and will have a very limited set of parameters that they will accept as viable. Some say that they can only perform successfully if there is a real "human need" present; others are not so inhibited. Many say that they can find any object or substance, while others say they can find, for example, only flowing water moving underground, but not in pipes. Some are specifically pipe-locators, they say, and some only look for metal pipes, not plastic.

Most dowsers claim 100% accuracy. Very few claim anything less than 90%.

A Wide Spectrum of Claims

Water dowsers are by far the most common variety we have encountered, and they, too, exhibit a wide spectrum of claims. Some only look for fresh/potable water. With some, it must be moving water. Some cannot detect water in pipes, only "natural" water. Most say they can tell how far down the water is, and at what rate it will be delivered, once tapped. Water dowsers as well as some less specialized say they can be thrown off by magnetic fields, nearby electricity, machinery, buried meteorites, masses of metal, or other underground rivers that intersect their path. The list of elements and situations that they say can inhibit their performances is endless.

The bottom line is that they all fail, when properly and fairly tested. There are no exceptions. Even after they have clearly and definitely failed, they always continue to believe in their powers. Why should this be so?

The Ideomotor Effect

We are witnessing here a very powerful psychological phenomenon known as the "ideomotor effect." This is defined as, "an involuntary body movement evoked by an idea or thought process rather than by sensory stimulation." The dowser is unknowingly moving the device of choice, exerting a small shaking, tilt or pressure to it, enough to disturb its state of balance. This has been shown any number of times to be true, but the demonstration has meant nothing to the dowsers, who will persist in their delusion no matter how many times it is shown to them that dowsing does not work. The defensive reaction of most dowsers, following their failure, is to claim that they should not have submitted to any test, and will never do so again. And most will say that dowsing comes under special rules that deny that it can be tested, ever. The discouraging fact is that no dowser is ever convinced, as a result of proper double-blind testing, that they cannot dowse. Their need to believe is so strong and so ingrained, that they will refuse to accept any quality and/or quantity of good evidence. They have adopted a philosophy that shields them against reality.

There appears to be a feeling on the part of the dowsers that if they've been self-deceived, it indicates that they are therefore stupid or naive. This is certainly not the case. Any person, regardless of education, IQ, sophistication, or social position, can fall for the ideomotor phenomenon. An indication of that is that a great number of scientists mostly physicists have embraced belief in dowsing, in spite of their superior knowledge of how the world works. But this is an effect of the mind, a different matter from the workings of the common everyday objects and situations we encounter in our lives.

A Compelling Belief

Please be aware of this, however: though you may be puzzled over this seemingly strange conviction embraced by the dowsers, unless you have actually experienced the ideomotor effect at work in yourselves, you cannot have a proper appreciation of how absolutely compelling and irresistible it can be and is. In fact, dowsers are insistent that the disbeliever should try the effect and thereby become convinced of its efficacy; they assure you that once you've tried it, you'll change your mind. And they're often right in that respect; the dowsing device really seems to move on its own, in response to some sort of external signal or force. As a result of some imagined or real hint from nature water dowsers are often familiar with the topological or geographical signs or conditions that indicate the probability of water in any given spot the operator unconsciously tilts or impels the device, and believes that it is indicating the presence of the sought-after material. That is simply not true. It's a trick of the mind, a very convincing trick, but a self-deception nonetheless.

Now, I am fully aware that the dowsers will read this discourse and will manage to completely ignore it. I regularly receive expressions of pity from them, for my inability to accept the reality that they have discovered. Many applications that are received at the James Randi Educational Foundation from dowsers will express great wonderment at why the million-dollar prize has not already been awarded, when dowsing is such an easy thing, they say, to demonstrate. Many are amazed that dowsing is eligible for the prize at all, since it is so widely accepted and believed in. And each dowser assures me that they are going to be the one to show me the error of my ways, and to dazzle me with a simple demonstration.

Excuses, Excuses

Each dowser goes away from any trial of their powers, dismayed by their failure, puzzled at the reasons for the failure, but always capable of coming up with a reasonable to them excuse. That excuse may be any one of many. It may be an unfortunate arrangement of the planets, improper temperature or humidity, a problem of indigestion, too much ambient noise or too much silence or a poor attitude on the part of the observers. These are not invented excuses; they are all drawn from my personal experience in testing these folks.

I must say that of all those who have ever tried to win the Pigasus Prize, and of those who I have otherwise tested in every part of the world, no claimants even approach the dowsers for honesty. These are persons who are genuinely, thoroughly, self-deceived. In only two instances one in Australia and the other in the U.K. did I ever encounter any cheating being tried by dowsers. And those cases were easily solved and immediately terminated.

I ask all those who wish to claim the prize based upon their dowsing skills to first try a double-blind test of their abilities. We at the JREF can advise you how to design such a test protocol. You will find, I assure you, that the description above of the ideomotor effect will be proven valid. And I know full well that you, as a dowser, will refuse this advice and believe that, for you, such a procedure is not necessary. I base this conclusion on my many years of handling dowsing claimants.

------------------------------------------

[Changian]

BangkokPundit has a slide from Gen. Anupong, Army C-in-C, presentation shown on Thai TV. He used a slide showing an Nvidia graphics card as part of their presentation to the Thai press on the effectiveness of the device and passed this circuit diagram off as being part of the GT200 bomb detection device.

See Thai Military Intelligence . . .FAIL

[toptuan]

The Bangkok Post headlines of a couple days ago wanted to make you laugh 'til you cried: "Army now uses chopsticks in place of GT200 bomb detectors." Apparently, the army is having better luck now sticking chopsticks into motorbike gas tanks, to search for bombs.

[brahmburgers]

Brit scientists opened up the contraption (it's not easy) and found nothing inside. I repeat 'nothing'. The fiasco with the bomb detection devices (selling for outrageous prices) reveals several things.

>>>> Thai authorities don't test if before they buy 'em

>>>> even when they belatedly test them, they don't do a decent job of it.

>>>> If something gets sold to a Thai gov't entity,

you can bet it will cost several or many times more than the actual price.

>>>> Thais are all superstitious. They believe in all the hocus pocus that gets dished out from fortune tellers and wats. So it's no surprise they would believe in hocus pocus of a high-priced little black box with an antennae sticking out.

>>>>> Even when shown, by Brit and Thai evaluators, that the box doesn't work, the Army still wants to believe it works. There are three main reasons, one of which was mentioned in the OP:

1. There are prosecutions which rely on the 'evidence' of the device's effectiveness. The logic goes something like this: We searched the suspect because the bomb detector showed he was carrying a weapon. We found a weapon. However, in court, the case might get thrown out because the initial search was predicated on the reading of the (now faulty) device. This was alluded to in the OP.

2. The military don't want to admit they made stupid mistakes and paid wildly ridiculous prices for the empty little boxes. Plus they don't want to admit they didn't test the devices before purchasing.

3. The military wants to keep using the devices as a deterent - somewhat like the police still using life-sized dummy statues at roadside checkpoints (while the real cops are off watching TV) - in order for drivers to slow down at the essentially unmanned checkpoints.

What an expensive mess. Nearly as ridiculous as the government having to pay tens of millions of baht to dispose of petrified fruit that was stupidly stored in warehouses - when a private contractor with some tractors could dispose of the mess for a small fraction of the price.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't think we can underestimate the potential fall out on this one. Along with Surayud's house, and possibly the golf course in Chantaburi, it isn't proving too hard to illustrate that neither side of the fence is clean.

Irrespective of Thaksin's court case, I hope that the people, (reds, yellows, pink or green) continue to point out the obvious corruption that exists on all levels in this country. Who knows, at the end of it all, Thaksin's legacy might be the creation of true transparency in government. Who would have thought.

To those defending the army and Porntip for continuing to back this ridiculous product I feel for you. Your misplaced extreme respect for authority and position is very worrying.

[animatic]

If you want to detect bombs you need a 'sniffer' tuned to the chemical traces of the components.

Dogs can learn this very well, but there are a few chips made to react to scent and tuned to bomb components

and these CAN be made to detect bombs effectively. But they aren't at this point small and cheap.

Not so's you can hand them to a grunt and tell him to wander around on 9 volt battery power...

These devises like GT200 and ADE whatever are bouncing off of this real technology

to make a scam device IMHO. The cost of the real thing is much higher... since it isn't turned out in bulk.

On ON THE RIGHT SCENT; FIRM'S `SNIFFER' UNITS FRAGRANT WITH POTENTIAL.

Developed at Sandia, a U.S. Department of Energy research lab, it consists of a thin layer of palladium nickel alloy Noun 1. nickel alloy - an alloy whose main constituent is nickel

nickel-base alloy

alloy, metal - a mixture containing two or more metallic elements or metallic and nonmetallic elements usually fused together or dissolving into each other when molten; "brass sandwiched on top of an integrated circuit integrated circuit (IC), electronic circuit built on a semiconductor substrate, usually one of single-crystal silicon. The circuit, often called a chip, is packaged in a hermetically sealed case or a nonhermetic plastic capsule, with leads extending from it for

..... Click the link for more information.. When it comes into contact with hydrogen atoms, even at minute levels, the alloy spits protons directly into the integrated circuit's logic cells.

Using that same basic technology, DCH has developed a hand-held device for hunting down leaks, a model for installation on hydrogen-powered devices, and a version for use in permanent locales where hydrogen might seep out, such as at a nuclear power plant or waste-treatment center. Together, the three applications have a potential market of $200 million, the company estimates.

By outsourcing the manufacturing of the sensors to industrial giant Allied Signal, DCH has managed to keep its staff and capital investments down. The company's staff of 11 consists primarily of engineers working to refine the sensor and develop new applications.

Haberman and Walker, meanwhile, have been working to establishing relationships with a bevy bevy

a flock of birds. of blue chip names they hope will result in 1999 sales of between $3 million and $4 million. A DCH sensor flew aboard a NASA NASA: see National Aeronautics and Space Administration. NASA

in full National Aeronautics and Space Administration

Independent U.S. space shuttle space shuttle, reusable U.S. space vehicle. Developed by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), it consists of a winged orbiter, two solid-rocket boosters, and an external tank. mission last year to test the device's extraterrestrial applications. Westinghouse recently certified the technology for use at a Russian nuclear power plant it is retrofitting. And Northrup Grumman Corp. is using DCH products in its metallurgy division. Other customers include Ford Motor Co., Lockheed Martin Defense Systems and the U.S. Naval Medical Research Institute.

Other variations of real world chips that detect scent molecules.

http://www.physorg.com/news144512744.html

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/200...ut-hazards.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1992...line-news_rss20

If only the science departments of the armed forces of most coundtries read the right magazines

they would know BS and snake oil from actual science.

Really at this point there is no excuse for so many to get caught in a scam like this.

Edited February 20, 2010 by animatic

[chantorn]

Home made GT200.

Use Tesco food court card to detect food.

It really work, as it point to the refrigerator full of food.

[OZEMADE]

The military should check out the recent BBC Newsnight report regarding these scanners which were shown to be nothing more than dowsing rods. This is just face-saving, they got scammed good and proper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQMwXo1SSVo (link to BBC story)

Like I said before let him use it everywhere, not his soldiers. I think he said somewhere he will take full responsibility? for what, some soldier losing his life. I want him to lead me into battle. O know he would probably be having a break.

[chantorn]

This is an actual clip that was air in Thailand TV.

The 3 slides displayed by the Thai Army during the press conference were of of a computer graphic display card also known as "NVIDIA GT200".

Looks like the Thai Army have no clue what they were talking about.

And they expect the public to believe them? That the device actually works?

[Jdietz]

They're really great if you're looking for a new empty plastic project box. It even comes with an antenna so you can build your own radio in it.

[Ricardo]

If these devices are so effective, perhaps the generals who authorised their purchase & continued-use should lead by example, and use one to navigate their way through a known mined-area ?

It could only result in the device being shown to work, or the removal of a few incompetents, from their fat-cat positions.

[dunkin2012]

Porntip should work with science......by saying that..

A magic dowsing rod from Corruption crooks.