Buying A Car At The Grey Market

[dr_lucas]

I am interested in buying a BMW Z4 from a grey market dealer from Ratchada, Bangkok.

They are importing these cars themselves, as well as many other luxury cars. They told me the car is brand new and imported from England. The price is around 30% cheaper than buying them from the official importer, that's a lot of money.

There are several dealerships over there, located next to each other. They also said that they give me full warranty (warranty length depends on the price I pay) cover in many garages around Bangkok who they work with.

Is it safe to buy from these dealerships? What are the downsides?

[lingnoi34]

How much risk are you willing to take?

Remember: the higher the risk, the higher the return (30% savings in your case...)

Personally, I wouldn't do it!!! Too much money involved even with 30% reduction.

LN

[dr_lucas]

Alright, but what is the risk? That what will happen?

[lingnoi34]

Remember, they could never convict Al Capone of anything but the tax authorities (IRS) got him!

I reckon that this is your biggest risk: seizure of the vehicle due to tax fraud.

LN

[khundon]

If it's a Beemer it will be seized and the new owner will be a BIB, with a huge smile on his face.

Don't be daft and waste your money.

[dr_lucas]

I don't understand...the car is already in Thailand, I was sitting in it at the dealership.

So how can it be seized if it was imported already?

[soundman]

Assuming the import duties and all other taxes have been paid correctly (which I highly doubt), and all the emissions/mechanical tests have been done with all this noted in the registration book, BMW Thailand will not honour any warranty claim, and may well charge you a very high "membership" fee to get your car serviced.

12 Years ago my Father in Law bought a nearly brand new Range Rover from Hong Kong?? On top of shipping, it cost about 200k Baht to get it registered, 300k Baht "membership fee" with ULR Thailand because your avg. Thai mechanic has no idea about the advanced systems in a RR, 300k for a new gearbox that shit itself after owning it for 3 months & was not covered by warranty & another 150k for the CPU system that blew up around the same time.

All up it cost more than buying a brand new one in Thailand.

About 6.5mil Baht, owned for 8 years, covered 80k miles. Sold it for 300k Baht & was happy to get rid of it at that price.

[dr_lucas]

As I mentioned in my first post, the dealer gives the warranty through a chain of garages they work with, not BMW, I will not get a BMW warranty in any case, even if all import fees are paid and all registration is proper.

The price they charge is the final price for a car that is already in Bangkok, I don't need to pay anything extra, no import fees, no shipping fees, nothing else, only pay for the car and pay for ownership change. And the savings are over 1.5 mil baht compared to the same car with the same specs bought through a BMW official distributor. (around 5.5mil compared to 3.8mil).

[katabeachbum]

these grey cars are usually imported at a low invoice, thus low taxes giving you low price. It may work for 15 years, it may not.

For the rest of the hidden costs, read Soundmans experience

The warranty from importer/dealer is only as good as they are, and their garage is only as good as their staff and BMWcomputersystem

BMW Z4 is rather inexpensive from BMW LOS when you check the uk price and ad up the taxes. Indicates on how much taxes have been avoided on grey unit.

[dr_lucas]

It may work for 15 years, it may not.

What does that mean?

[katabeachbum]

It may work for 15 years, it may not.

What does that mean?

customs may want more money or may not. if they do, I reckon the dealer is gone, you pay or they take your car. common on grey imported big bikes

you may want to check the importdocs, compare the importvalue with the price in uk, and check if the right cc and hp are displayed. usually not

Edited January 28, 2010 by katabeachbum

[dr_lucas]

I don't understand how that works. The car is already IN Bangkok, ie. it already cleared customs, so how can customs take the car after it already passed the border and cleared their process? Have you ever heard about a car/bike Thai customs took AFTER it cleared customs and was in Bangkok already?

[katabeachbum]

I don't understand how that works. The car is already IN Bangkok, ie. it already cleared customs, so how can customs take the car after it already passed the border and cleared their process? Have you ever heard about a car/bike Thai customs took AFTER it cleared customs and was in Bangkok already?

yes, many

Recently a brand new Ferrari was smashed up in a shopping mall by customs, to show grey importers how they handle this

Plenty of bikes been taken more than 5 years after import

[LivinLOS]

I don't understand...the car is already in Thailand, I was sitting in it at the dealership.

So how can it be seized if it was imported already?

Same way the regularly round up grey import bikes.. And the owners are left crying..

Any retrospective enforcement or discover of unpaid taxes are the responsibility of the current owner, not the (thai) owner and seller.

[steelepulse]

I don't understand how that works. The car is already IN Bangkok, ie. it already cleared customs, so how can customs take the car after it already passed the border and cleared their process? Have you ever heard about a car/bike Thai customs took AFTER it cleared customs and was in Bangkok already?

yes, many

Recently a brand new Ferrari was smashed up in a shopping mall by customs, to show grey importers how they handle this

Plenty of bikes been taken more than 5 years after import

Wasn't that the F456 that had all the expensive items removed to avoid tax, not a grey market whole vehicle import. Funny they said the car was valued at 40 million, yet at talarod.com and one2car these vehicles go for around 7 million.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/09/27...es_30050401.php

[stingray]

So long story. This is a very easy one. Is the car registered with Thai license plates already or not? If you buy it, go with them to the ministery of transportation to make sure they do the transfer of your ownership in a correct way, (not under the table and no fake book). Beware, there are many fake blue book on the market, like double registered cars for example. But if the blue book is real they can transfer ownership in "transpo office" with checking the car. Once it's in your name noone can blame you for any unpayd import duty. I don't see any risk there.

[LivinLOS]

So long story. This is a very easy one. Is the car registered with Thai license plates already or not? If you buy it, go with them to the ministery of transportation to make sure they do the transfer of your ownership in a correct way, (not under the table and no fake book). Beware, there are many fake blue book on the market, like double registered cars for example. But if the blue book is real they can transfer ownership in "transpo office" with checking the car. Once it's in your name noone can blame you for any unpayd import duty. I don't see any risk there.

Tell that to the 100's of bikers being fined for back taxes in the last few months.. EXACT same situation.

Case of lose the bike or pay the back tax that the importer bribed their way not to pay.

[katabeachbum]

So long story. This is a very easy one. Is the car registered with Thai license plates already or not? If you buy it, go with them to the ministery of transportation to make sure they do the transfer of your ownership in a correct way, (not under the table and no fake book). Beware, there are many fake blue book on the market, like double registered cars for example. But if the blue book is real they can transfer ownership in "transpo office" with checking the car. Once it's in your name noone can blame you for any unpayd import duty. I don't see any risk there.

customs dont blame new owner. they just keep the car or bike until all taxes have been payed on their estimated value and real life cc and hp. can happen within a month of purchase or 15 years later. amazed on how many lambos, bmw and ferraris in this country with only 219 hp (tax barrier is 220 hp).

[stingray]

So long story. This is a very easy one. Is the car registered with Thai license plates already or not? If you buy it, go with them to the ministery of transportation to make sure they do the transfer of your ownership in a correct way, (not under the table and no fake book). Beware, there are many fake blue book on the market, like double registered cars for example. But if the blue book is real they can transfer ownership in "transpo office" with checking the car. Once it's in your name noone can blame you for any unpayd import duty. I don't see any risk there.

Tell that to the 100's of bikers being fined for back taxes in the last few months.. EXACT same situation.

Case of lose the bike or pay the back tax that the importer bribed their way not to pay.

I'm not sur about bikes, but bikes with white plates, registered in your name i guess is no problem. But there are hunderts of bikes with red plates on the street, at least in Pattaya. I allways had and sold some big bikes in Pattaya, the last one was a 400 CBR, never had problem in the "transpo office". Of corse THEREFORE you have to do the ownership transfer in the Transportation office, not using some silly agent. Only at the procedure in the transpo office you see if the bike or the car is legal or not.

[dr_lucas]

Many contradicting posts...made me more confused than when I started...

So what is the real answer? Does anyone know for sure?

[Grant]

BMW cancels grey market warranty

http://bit.ly/caWSJC

[dr_lucas]

BMW cancels grey market warranty

http://bit.ly/caWSJC

Yes, I already mentioned the warranty issue several time above, I don't care about it anyway.

Others posted that customs may seize the car after it has already been cleared from customs, sorry to be so skeptical but this sounds quite impossible to me as I've never heard of such a thing happen anywhere in the world and I certainly haven't met anyone here who such a thing happened to him personally with a car or a bike. Has anyone?

Any other issues/risks I should take into account?

[Grant]

I don't care about it anyway

I don't care about warranty for my Civic but for BMW, especially expensive one, it can be very important.

Anyway if you don't care about service cost there is no problem at all

[dr_lucas]

I don't care about it anyway

I don't care about warranty for my Civic but for BMW, especially expensive one, it can be very important.

Anyway if you don't care about service cost there is no problem at all

I meant I don't care about the official BMW importer's warranty. If you read the link you posted - TSL (and I assume BRG too) service their own customers anyway...

[Grant]

TSL (and I assume BRG too) service their own customers anyway...

I remember the biggest importer S.E.C which is doesn't exist anymore.

What happen with warranty from them?

[dr_lucas]

TSL (and I assume BRG too) service their own customers anyway...

I remember the biggest importer S.E.C which is doesn't exist anymore.

What happen with warranty from them?

Well, bankruptcy is something that can happen to any company in any industry and is a risk you need to consider when you buy anything I guess (take a look at big car manufacturers going bankrupt - what happen with warranties from them?), but both of these companies in the article (TSL & BRG) for example are in business for many years already. And there are many smaller gray market dealers who are also in business for many years.

[soundman]

I don't care about it anyway

I don't care about warranty for my Civic but for BMW, especially expensive one, it can be very important.

Anyway if you don't care about service cost there is no problem at all

I meant I don't care about the official BMW importer's warranty. If you read the link you posted - TSL (and I assume BRG too) service their own customers anyway...

Wife's cousin bought a 5 Series BMW through one of these groups. Imported into Thailand as parts, assembled here and sold with "warranty".

Absolutley everything that could possibly go wrong with the car did, and hardly anything was covered by warranty. All repairs were paid for in cash.

From memory some of the things that went wrong:

Radiator burst, over temperature light didn't activate, engine over-heated and had to undergo some major repair.

Automatic transmission had major problems.

Central locking and power windows never worked correctly.

AirCon never worked correctly, if at all.

Problem with the chassis.

Numerous other in-explicable rattles and noises.

Car ended up sitting in the garage for a couple of years because no-one wanted to drive it for fear of not being able to return home. Was sold for Satangs to the Baht.

Note: I don't think there was ever an issue about the car's registration, however, this was around 1999 & I don't think the police were diligent checking these things.

[dr_lucas]

I don't care about it anyway

I don't care about warranty for my Civic but for BMW, especially expensive one, it can be very important.

Anyway if you don't care about service cost there is no problem at all

I meant I don't care about the official BMW importer's warranty. If you read the link you posted - TSL (and I assume BRG too) service their own customers anyway...

Wife's cousin bought a 5 Series BMW through one of these groups. Imported into Thailand as parts, assembled here and sold with "warranty".

Which group was it?

[LivinLOS]

So long story. This is a very easy one. Is the car registered with Thai license plates already or not? If you buy it, go with them to the ministery of transportation to make sure they do the transfer of your ownership in a correct way, (not under the table and no fake book). Beware, there are many fake blue book on the market, like double registered cars for example. But if the blue book is real they can transfer ownership in "transpo office" with checking the car. Once it's in your name noone can blame you for any unpayd import duty. I don't see any risk there.

Tell that to the 100's of bikers being fined for back taxes in the last few months.. EXACT same situation.

Case of lose the bike or pay the back tax that the importer bribed their way not to pay.

I'm not sur about bikes, but bikes with white plates, registered in your name i guess is no problem. But there are hunderts of bikes with red plates on the street, at least in Pattaya. I allways had and sold some big bikes in Pattaya, the last one was a 400 CBR, never had problem in the "transpo office". Of corse THEREFORE you have to do the ownership transfer in the Transportation office, not using some silly agent. Only at the procedure in the transpo office you see if the bike or the car is legal or not.

Your guessing totally wrong.. Go read the thread (page 18 excise tax info, and big bike crackdowns etc)..

Bikes with green books, in the persons name, and white plates, owned for years.. And suddenly confiscated demanding back taxes from the 90's when they were imported as the excise taxes were not registered properly in their current book

Theres even cases where its proven the DMV simply didnt bother to transfer the tax info from old books to new books, cos it wasnt considered important.. and then now the new books dont have it they demand the original import papers of a decade ago and previous owners or pay it again !!

[LivinLOS]

BMW cancels grey market warranty

http://bit.ly/caWSJC

Yes, I already mentioned the warranty issue several time above, I don't care about it anyway.

Others posted that customs may seize the car after it has already been cleared from customs, sorry to be so skeptical but this sounds quite impossible to me as I've never heard of such a thing happen anywhere in the world and I certainly haven't met anyone here who such a thing happened to him personally with a car or a bike. Has anyone?

Any other issues/risks I should take into account?

Took me 3 months to get my FULLY LEGAL bike returned.. Many people I know got fuc_ked..

Your not on Kansas any more Dorothy.. The customs office is possibly the most corrupt in Thailand.. And if they think they can screw you over, do you really think they wont because ??? Its not fair ??