No Blue Book For My Car

[katabeachbum]

My question to Ripoff the Expat Motors Inc.

Do you not carry insurance? As a broker who recieves only the commission is liable for the commission amount only unless fraud can be proven. You instead acted as the owner accepting the full sale through your bank there fore becoming liable for 100% of the price of the vehicle.

I would visit my insurance company and make a claim. If nothing else have your insurance company settle out of court with the 10 buyers to reduce the cost of a court case. You should atleast make an offer. Maybe after 3 years your customers will settle for a reduced compensation just to be rid of your sorry arse and you can close this chapter of your company.

Secondly how sure is anyone that this guy really is the owner of Rippoff the Expat Motors?

How smart is it to come on a public forum and admit guilt.

OP sell your car for parts.

It may take you a long time but you will get a lot more money for the car than it is worth if you are patient.

If you do own a Fortuner as I do it will be easy to sell. Sell the engine whole. Get in touch with some body shops. When they need a fender bumper give you a call.

OP, you should check out who is leasing the car from financecompany. In the book there are 2 names, finance company and user. There are indications you are in the book as user, since finance bullys where able to locate your car. If so, dont even think about selling your car in parts, thats jailtime.

I know, you dont have the book, but by entering your platenumber or VIN code in police or insurance company computer, you can read who the user is.

[stingray]

This is mosthly the case (sooner or later) if you buy cars from a brooker (not a dealer). Dealers BUY their cars (used car dealers), they buy, trade and sell and because a dealer put his own money i a car, he is much more carefull what car he buy, how- and with who he deals. No want to promote our self, but i'm also in the used car business for 25 years (my father and my grand fadther was in the car business as well, so i'm in the third generation now. Before in Switzerland, Hawaii (still have ties in Hawaii) and now in Thailand for the last 10 years. But all the cars i have in stock are mine (not the finance), thererfore i have older and cheaper used cars. I mean, there is no need for a used car dealer to "shine up" with a carlot of almost new used cars with not belong to him anyway. Just want to explain: To OWN the cars, for a cardealer means, gives the cardealer the freedom to sale use or trade, the way he want's. To buy a car from a brooker means, he is not beable to controll the paperwork and he later is not beable to trade or buy the car back again. The same scam happens sometime in the housing business. Some companies selling houses or projects which they not even built yet, because they get grid. This can be ok, but this can be a scam as well. Nobody knows if he ever get the "chanut". Therefore it's better to doing small business to minimize the risk of "Downfall".

But one question a poster made above is very important: Is the poster "terdsak_12" really "Expat Motors"? (Not want to put a company in a bad light, if they maybe not even know anything about)

[hawthorne]

OP ok do not sell by parts if you can face trouble with the law I will remove that choice good point.

If you can not use it and I assume you are in the process of getting an attorney. Is it a choice of yours then to go talk to the lean holder and work out a deal to start paying on the loan so you can atleast get tags and everything so you can use it.

Assume you should by the background. Go ahead and try to do something so you can use the vehicle. If you lose, which anything is possible you will be stuck with this loan. As painfull as it is to pay for a car twice maybe that is your only choice.

[jcon]

First, "terdsak_12" IS Andy from Expat Motors. I think even he will admit this, so there is no question here.

Second, so is it the case that the OP does not have the blue book but according to the finance company he owes money? In other words, obviously the finance company is holding the blue book and thinks that the OP is the one who took out the loan on the car because otherwise how would they know to send their goons after the OP?

That brings me to the next point: How would the original scammer ("supplier") have taken out finance on the car in the OP's name? If he did do that, and Expat Motors was the broker/agent in the deal then there MUST have been something going on in the background at the time (it's obviously clear now to the OP and the rest of us, but it should have/must have been clear to Expat Motors back then). Signatures? Paper trail?

Expat Motors took CASH from the OP. Where did that cash go? To the "supplier?"

I would have heads roll if this happened to me. OP go after your money fast and fiercely - otherwise you'll never see any of it - in Thailand crooks tend to run away (especially after they have exhibited behavior like Andy at Expat Motors has - shedding all accountability). This stuff just really pisses me off. OP, you've been patient - maybe too patient. The behaviour and business is unethical and illegal, respectively. If you aren't aggressive with dogs like this, you will get the run-around - which has already occurred. Don't get suckered again.

[hithere]

Hi There

Yes its a Fortuner.

i will not and cant buy the car 2 times, i have paid 1,2 mill +extras for the car, i am not the one making mistakes here, i have given them so much time to sort it out.

i will not put any names in here but some people from the company is not in Thailand anymore.

They have a lawyer there dont speak very good English, my girlfriend talked to him, he told her its a big mess, he said it was better to pay off the finance company myself but hey i have paid for the car, he said a few other things but i will not put it down on paper.

thanks for all the support, not many is against me here, thanks for that.

Again i dont understand they did not buy the car back, i think that this going public will hurt them more than it would cost to get the car back, but ofcause they did not do anything wrong....

[uwe_rayong]

I think the car dealer will never buy your car back because in the end it is just too expensive, never mind how cheap you sell it.

Example: 2006 Fortuner market price around 850.000

You may agree to sell it back to terdsak for 700.000 because you just want get rid of it.

Terdsak pays you 700.000 Thb. -

After that he must pay off the leasing company to get the book - maybe! 1.200.000 THB.

So he`ll pay 1.9 Mil for a car that maybe is worth 850.000 Thb.

I think that is not going to happen.

Time is also no solution here, the resale value is slowly decreasing and the remainder of debt is increasing (% Finance Company)...

You may park the car near the Cambodian border and try your luck in the spare part business...

Terdsak can be very happy that this mistake happened with a polite and patient Farang. Imagine if he had sold the car to a General of the Royal Thai Navy or Bib

[lingnoi34]

This once again confirms that farang will rip off fellow falang worse than anyone out there.

L

[kennkate]

I could not help but notice the Union jack Flying. Do I take it that the seller is from the UK ?

If that is the case you would have thought the business was run in a honest fashion.

Ok I know it's not the Uk but in UK Law The Seller is responsible for all complaints That applies to warranty work.

You buy a TV From Tesco You go back to Tesco not Panasonic or Sony It's up to them to sort it They sold it they sort it

Should be the same in Thailand. You Have paid, They got the cash, Expat motors should sort it out for you..

[MikeyIdea]

Hi There

********

I wish I could find the other 9 people so we could build a case and get a good lawyer

********

I wouldn't do that, with 10 people wanting money there won't be anything left for you. You don't need a very good lawyer anyway, you seem to have a crystal clear case. Don't believe what some say about courts in Thailand will never help a farang etc, that's rubbish coming from people who don't know. You must have evidence proving that you are in the right and you will win. You may only get half of your lawyers costs back, or none, or all (in order of probability) and it will take time, and depending on what assets the company have, you may not get all you should get. The last thing is the same everywhere.

Get a lawyer and file a complaint now, I am sure you will get enough money out of Expat Motors for it to be worth it

Edited February 1, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[barryscaife]

Hi There

I paid cash for the car, its the well known car dealer it comes down to, they paid another guy for the car and that guy bought the car/cars on finance and did not pay, this well known car dealer will not pay me and take the car back, they told me i would get the blue book after 3-4 months, its now 3 years, they say its not them there have done something wrong, i think it is, i have all the papers saying i bought the car cash, also i have all the mails between the car dealer and me since day one.

If they was a good car dealer they should give me the money and take the car and deal with this, i have gone down to 700.000 Baht for a 3 year old car only done 45.000 km and look like new. i given them a lot of time to do something, but they just talk and talk.

i will try to get the name of the company out on as many website in Thailand as i can, some people will not believe who it is for sure but i can give them fact

I dont want to make trouble for this company i just wnat to get rid of a car i thought was mine, and have given them a very good deal and long time to solve this problem, i know that around 9 other people have the same problem, if we could get together maybe it would be cheaper to hire a good lawyer.

Hello hithere,

A good friend of mine alerted me to this link as I too have a Fortuna purchased from the same company as yours. That said my problem is slightly different in that I do have the blue registration document but two and a half years after I bought the car I had a court summons delivered to my house.

Even though I have the registration document and the car was re-financed for a while, the "original" finance company that Andy Wing bought the car from claims that the finance on the car was never paid off and want it returned. This I find hard to believe as I refinanced the car for a short while and AIG who lent the money would have run checks on the car before agreeing the loan.

To make matters worse the reply(s) from Andy Wing which I still have on computer say much the same as the reply you received - it's not my fault and you should engage a lawyer to protect yourself. I have had to engage a lawyer as we have been in court three times now and matters seem to be going nowhere fast.

I fairness to the court the original finance company wanted the car off the road whilst the case was going through the courts but the judge I think smells a rat (or several rats) and has decided that they have not proven any of their claims and I can use the car - he has also warned all concerned that someone will be paying compensation so I do a have a little faith in the courts on this matter and I would think that in Thailand this type of problem is widespread.

My own lawyers opinion is that I may well loose the case and my car at some point in the future but that could be 2 to 3 years away and in the meantime I cannot sell or trade the car - except back to Expat Motors - some chance!!!!! At the same time he wants me to take legal action against Expat Motors but as yet the court has not decided on the car so this is not possible. Should I loose the car I will be taking Expat Motors to court on a criminal charge not a not civil action

So if anyone else out there has a car in this situation I would just love to hear from you

[LivinLOS]

So if you refi'ed the car do we assume you got a good chunk of your money back out, and are now on a payment freeze while ownership is worked out ??

[barryscaife]

So if you refi'ed the car do we assume you got a good chunk of your money back out, and are now on a payment freeze while ownership is worked out ??

No LivinLOS, I repaid the finance quite some time ago and don't think I would have had the option to freeze payment to AIG if the car was still financed by them as this would have been a contract between myself and AIG which they would have been able to enforce legally.

Shame Expat Motors do not think in the same way - as everyone has been saying the problem is of their making so they need to sort it out it's that simple.

[jcon]

Andy's behaviour and attitude toward this situation is pathetic and shameful. He was running this Fortuner racket for quite some time, displaying an air of superiority when it came to his 'ability' to 'acquire' Fortuners in very short periods of time when the main dealers had long waiting times. This is when the Fortuner was a hot seller and just came to market. Also, Andy stroked this "we only deal in cash" attitude when it came to selling cars under the guise of easy transactions/better quality/etc. when in fact the most probable reason they didn't offer finance was because it was SHADY from the start.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Toyota-Vigo-....html&st=15

Just an example from that thread from terdsak_12 (Andy Wing):

"We buy around 10 Vigos a month for export, and get around 4-5 Fortuners a month for a local clients.

Just good relationships with a load of Toyota dealers, and paying cash on the spot with no quibbling."

I think Andy is back in the UK, only leaving his b*tch Tim flogging the cars in Bangkok. Andy, please correct me if I'm wrong, after all you are a forum sponsor. The motoring forum is a pretty tight group of people, so opinions here count.

I don't know about how they have structured their business, but it looks like they have had a setup in the UK for quite some time also, so you may consider going after them from that end. UK law should come down harder on these scammers than Thai law - but either way I would advise to pursue both sides with vigor. Really upsetting how they are taking advantage of expats based on the conception that dealing with an expat is 'better' when in fact it was worse than dealing with the locals.

I was in a situation where I was owed money (rightfully and legally) by a property developer and only after went for the throat did I get my money back, and in short order. I would do the same here. Had Andy reacted differently to this situation, then I would not make such a recommendation, but clearly (and not just to me) he is trying to release himself from all accountability and is even being a jerk to boot. I don't care if I had to take ownership of that crappy little tent office they have in Srinakarin, I would get something back (in money or in any other 'form of compensation'). Just my 2 cents, but after 3 years (and 2.5 years for the 2nd guy) of lies, well it's time to bring them down.

Am I wrong, Andy?

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks for posting Barry. Just wanted to point out that you are the legal owner so you cannot sue Expat Motors for that, and not yet for other reasons but the OP is in a different situation from yours

The OP can and IMO should sue Expat Motors without delay. I do have faith in the legal system, not perfect faith of course but good enough to believe that the OP will win. And get money back, perhaps not all but definitely enough to make it worth it

[MikeyIdea]

I know that this is off-topic but google for andy wing ajarn.com and you will find an interview they did with him 20 Jul 2004, fun reading

[barryscaife]

Thanks for posting Barry. Just wanted to point out that you are the legal owner so you cannot sue Expat Motors for that, and not yet for other reasons but the OP is in a different situation from yours

The OP can and IMO should sue Expat Motors without delay. I do have faith in the legal system, not perfect faith of course but good enough to believe that the OP will win. And get money back, perhaps not all but definitely enough to make it worth it

Hi MikeyIdea - Many thanks and agreed my situation is different however the "original" finance company is asking the court to cancel the registration document in their favour but they have to prove that it was issued incorrectly before this can happen. Of course the registration office at Mo Chit will be involved so I think I'm in for a long battle.

[CDNinKS]

Imagine if he had sold the car to a General of the Royal Thai Navy or Bib

Maybe he did and that is why he has run home to momma......those guys will deal out their own brand of justice

Edited February 1, 2010 by CDNinKS

[Gary A]

Thai Visa is a business and it is not their responsibility to verify whether a business is legit or not. You pay your fees and do your advertising.

I'm sure that profit drives everything and that Expat Motors never expected to be in this position. That said, they are in this position and owe their customers compensation. No doubt they will go belly up for their poor judgment. I feel sorry for the customers who put their trust in this company.

[jcon]

Come on Gary, if ThaiVisa wants to keep Expat Motors then yes, it's their preogative I suppose - but 3 YEARS of stringing along cash-paying customers???? One can assume that Expat Motors didn't think they'd be in that position at that time, but it should have been sorted out a long time ago - even now, Andy isn't accepting responsibility. I think the entire forum is in agreement on this one.

Legit?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Toyota-Fortuner-t70138.html

Or shady? I think the latter, and doesn't it appear as if he knew it?

[MikeyIdea]

I hope Thaivisa is reading all this.

Of course there are moderators reading this. Welcome to the commercial world where money rules and morale has less value than a half-eaten banana.

ThaiVisa is by now well aware of that Expat Motors has ripped off some of their members and other westerners in Thailand, one argument ThaiVisa could have not to act could be that it isn't proved yet of course Anyway, ThaiVisa are not going to pull the adverts because they would probably break a contract of they did and there is no way they would offer to return money to be able to withdraw the advertising. Money simply has way too much value compared to morale in the commercial world. I am of course writing what I do to put a bit of pressure on ThaiVisa so that they do act, when they legally can. ThaiVisa should IMO not break a contract with a customer and withdraw immediately although we of course out of solidarity want them to do that

[stingray]

If Andy is in UK now, i think the story is over. The important thing is "WHO signed the sales contract. If he didn't, there would be no possibility to go after him in UK. What is written on the sales contract? Is there mention that EXPAT Motors sold the car, or was it some "templated" thai contract, which you can buy at any stationary office? Who is, the director of Expat Motors? Maybe the contract not even menthion the companies name and some Local signed the contract, maybe that guy who signed the contract not work there anymore. There are manythings we don't know and i guess only a local Lawyer can know the way how to doo. But there is anhtoer thing, maybe it's not wothth to trow more money in "the case", because not sure that can get any money back.

[stingray]

Why is the finance company after the car? Are you still making payments? Did you pay cash for the car?

Actually what really puzzles me is: How can tha car be in finance when it was brand new? If it was a 3 month old car, maybe, but since the buyer paid up in cash, that's mean the car wasn't new at the time when it was sold.

[hithere]

Why is the finance company after the car? Are you still making payments? Did you pay cash for the car?

Actually what really puzzles me is: How can tha car be in finance when it was brand new? If it was a 3 month old car, maybe, but since the buyer paid up in cash, that's mean the car wasn't new at the time when it was sold.

Hi

Not sure i understand this, it was a new car when i bought it, i am not home right now but will look what name is on the sales contract, but i know its not "him"

[hithere]

Hi There

Thanks for all the comment, i will now try to find out about the UK based company, then try to put something on some web sites in UK, think i already found a few, so please buy the car back before this get any worse, as you told me it is a good deal i offer you, and then we can close this, but still you sound like you did nothing wrong, i have been waiting 3 years for that book and for a long time not been able to drive the car (i will not say my car then i will be lying i guess) so pay and forget about it, but then again i dont think i will be on top of the list after i went public with this. Hope you sleep well,,, i dont..

[barryscaife]

Why is the finance company after the car? Are you still making payments? Did you pay cash for the car?

Actually what really puzzles me is: How can tha car be in finance when it was brand new? If it was a 3 month old car, maybe, but since the buyer paid up in cash, that's mean the car wasn't new at the time when it was sold.

Hi

Not sure i understand this, it was a new car when i bought it, i am not home right now but will look what name is on the sales contract, but i know its not "him"

Hi Stingray and Hithere, I actually do have two receipts signed by Andy Wing on Expat Motors letterhead - one for the deposit and one for the final payment as well as a Thai document that translated says that the car is sold without any finance on it. The court agrees that we have acted in good faith and are not in the wrong in any way but still the original finance company insist the car ultimately belongs to them - only in Thailand!!!!

[hithere]

Why is the finance company after the car? Are you still making payments? Did you pay cash for the car?

Actually what really puzzles me is: How can tha car be in finance when it was brand new? If it was a 3 month old car, maybe, but since the buyer paid up in cash, that's mean the car wasn't new at the time when it was sold.

Hi

Not sure i understand this, it was a new car when i bought it, i am not home right now but will look what name is on the sales contract, but i know its not "him"

Hi Stingray and Hithere, I actually do have two receipts signed by Andy Wing on Expat Motors letterhead - one for the deposit and one for the final payment as well as a Thai document that translated says that the car is sold without any finance on it. The court agrees that we have acted in good faith and are not in the wrong in any way but still the original finance company insist the car ultimately belongs to them - only in Thailand!!!!

Hi

Thanks for coming forward

I think i understand why he is not in Thailand anymore, start to understand what the lawyer told me now. My girlfriend know a good lawyer in BKK will try to get in tuch with him when i am back in Thailand

[MikeyIdea]

The court agrees that we have acted in good faith and are not in the wrong in any way but still the original finance company insist the car ultimately belongs to them - only in Thailand!!!!

The question is who had charter to whatever is in dispute. Expat Motors could get you the book in your name so it seems they had it at that time. The finance company tries to go the path that the charter was incorrectly or illegally in Expat Motors hand when they did the transfer of ownership, hence the transfer is illegal and should be revoked. I can't see the finance company winning that in the end. It seems that the signatures of people within Expat Motors indeed did have the power to transfer ownership at that time. If it was illegally done, then they will have to go after Expat Motors and not you. I bet they are and they are throwing one your way just to see what they can get. Don't think they expect much from your side

You should go out OK in the end, stick in there

[MikeyIdea]

Why are you sure he's not in Thailand? Anyone knows for sure that he has left the sinking ship?

[hithere]

Why are you sure he's not in Thailand? Anyone knows for sure that he has left the sinking ship?

Hi There

I know for sure, remember i have been trying to sort this for years.

[Ping]

Andy, the idea your a middleman might (and I do mean might) be acceptable if this was you acting as a broker for second hand cars..

But you supplied this car new, and it sounds like you have been stringing out the problem and lieing all the way while you knew the facts to be different..

I for one am amazed your still a sponsor here and the way you have acted basically shows what kind of business you run.. You need to pony up and pay the customers back and take your liability back on board, your agreements with your suppliers are your own, not your customers.

You're far too kind and generous, LIL - it's nothing short of an absolute disgrace. I hope George (Admin) has taken note of all this.

To the OP - time to lawyer-up... and thanks for the timely warning. (As with some other BMs, I also had the sponsor in mind for a new car in a couple of months.)