Access Rights

[thaipod]

Has anyone had the problem of people that claim that they have the right to walk through your land because they have been doing it for many years.

We have a couple of rai of land on the river that the mother inlaw has had and has now given us which I like and now have had it surveyed and got workers putting a fence around it and have plans to build on it and stay there sometimes .

Now we have the problem of the 4 houses behind the land insisting we have to give them right of way of 1.2 metres so they can walk and ride there motocycles through the property because they have been using the land and caring for it for the past 50 years which at first we said no and now they have got the local MP which he said we also must let them through .

So now we have had to get a solicitor to write a lease agreement for 1 metre access which they refuse to sign . Now I think we will have to go to court which will be a pain the ass.

My wife said this is common in thailand and has shown me several areas normally slums and small comunities that have strips of land walled off ,some with signs private property

Any legal ideas on this would be appreciated

[Beardog]

As far as I know of if you own the land title & put up a fence within your boundaries they can slog in the river. You own what is stated on the chanote. Unless it is written in the Chanote about an access to the other properties they are at your mercy on this one. We had 4&1? 2 rai which I sold a little over half & marked of with a nice fence & the area that wasn't fenced we had hunters & trappers insist they have the right to continue & My girl told them now bought hit the bricks. They didn't like the arrangement but found a new spot to hunt & trap. It sounds like the cop is just reiterating their concerns & you are probably smart to get a lawyer in on it.I never heard of a right to access & the places that do have common road usage is usually stipulated in the original contract or will be filed with the land office. I would contact your amphur where your mother in law got the chanote taken care of originally. Maybe in your best interest to ask HER if she would ask the land office about the so called assess. They would have on file any pending arrangements. If they say cool throw that fence up & get rid of the mossier's the only right of way on our property I have given 2 meters in between my property & I am sure my neighbor will give access similar like in the western states. Someone I know that has land on a common usage road has it written in the original purchase agreement. Unless there really is a right of way I think they may be blowing smoke up your ass. The only part that may be an entitlement is the river. The land office would know if this was agreed or not a real claim.Unfortunately this is not the best conditions to start of as neighbors- but you got to do what you got to do.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Beardog

[way2muchcoffee]

Why not just build the fence leaving the 1.2 meter access? Surely you won't suffer for it in any way. On the other hand making enemies with neighbors is a sure way to increase your suffering, especially if you intend to stay on the property.

Edited January 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[sbk]

google the phuket hotel that was sued for closing public access to the beach, not sure if that was strictly because it was access to public property however. The hotel lost btw.

[edwinchester]

I am tempted to agree with Beardog on this one.

When my wife bought some land a few years ago I was concerned about access as a couple of the neighbours used to cross to access the paddy they rented.

After a visit to the Amphur they told us that unless such access was written on the chanote for my wifes land then they had no legal right of access.

[BigWheelMan]

Why not just build the fence leaving the 1.2 meter access? Surely you won't suffer for it in any way. On the other hand making enemies with neighbors is a sure way to increase your suffering, especially if you intend to stay on the property.

Makes absolute common sense.

This is why I would hate to have a farang as a neighbour.

Someone that would complain that my dog is barking after moonrise, my rose bush is protruding 1 inch over his land, my fence is of the wrong colour, no thanks.

Where I live, my neighbours and I, each short cut over our lands, my dogs bark, their dogs bark, no problems.

This is Thailand and in this country they fully understand the word, compromise.

Keep it in mind; it may save you lots of agro later on.

[manarak]

Right of passage is usually recorded on the land deed. Check at the land office if such servitude has been recorded.

If no servitude is recorded and if they want to sue for a right of passage, if this comes to court, I am afraid chances are the court will officialise their right of passage.

Effectively, if "people" are doing things for long enough, it will eventually become their right to do so, and this will be acknowledged in court. 50 years is a long period of time.

A debate in court poses the danger that the court will rule against you by deciding either a general right of passage on the whole of your property or draw a corridor of 2 meters (or more !!!) straight through it, effectively ruining your property.

You can then appeal of that unfair decision, but this will only cost more baht.

The best thing for you to do is to grant them a right of passage inofficially (and just for them), at a place of your property where it won't bother you too much, and without recording anything at the land office.

Edited January 28, 2010 by manarak

[jubby]

I don't know the legalities but I do know that you need to think long and hard about it. How important is it to you that they do not have access to your land ? Can you perhaps put in a small gate ?. I know some Thais who get very upset about this especially when its not convenient to walk around and especially when its a 'Farang' blocking access. I've narrowly escaped problems myself and I know of one other who had problems for years after fencing off his land. Lots and lots of damage can occur overnight and no one ever , ever sees the perpetrator You should see the state of my brother-in-laws motorbike for not keeping his nose out. Its still got two wheels I suppose

Maybe you neighbours are good honest upstanding citizens who wouldn't dream of it. I don't know.

[edwinchester]

Why not just build the fence leaving the 1.2 meter access? Surely you won't suffer for it in any way. On the other hand making enemies with neighbors is a sure way to increase your suffering, especially if you intend to stay on the property.

Makes absolute common sense.

This is why I would hate to have a farang as a neighbour.

Someone that would complain that my dog is barking after moonrise, my rose bush is protruding 1 inch over his land, my fence is of the wrong colour, no thanks.

Where I live, my neighbours and I, each short cut over our lands, my dogs bark, their dogs bark, no problems.

This is Thailand and in this country they fully understand the word, compromise.

Keep it in mind; it may save you lots of agro later on.

It's not just farangs here in Thailand that get blinkered when it comes to property lines and rights. It happens the world over.

One of my friends here in Thailand, a farang, regularly gets a complaint from his Thai neighbour when his wife(Thai) waters their garden and some of the water happens to spray into their, the neighbours, (unused) rice paddy!

One of our neighbours(Thai) complained about a small tree overhanging our wall and so overhanging their rice paddy. The fact their rice paddy had encroached on my wifes land was neither here nor there.

[lannarebirth]

There is no such thing as a prescriptive easement in Thailand. Your neighbor CAN claim land from you if two conditions have been extant. 1) They have adversely posseed your land for a long time in an open and conspicuous way. 2) They have been paying your taxes on the land during that period.

[Moonrakers]

It all sounds a bit anal too me.

If that extra bit of land is absolutely necessary to you then fair enough, but if it is no harm then why not just allow people to use that strip, within reason of course.

I sounds as though they are trying to compromise and so perhaps you should too, otherwise you might end up just pissing the neighbours of for something quite petty.

GERROF MY LAND!!!!!!!

Edited January 28, 2010 by Moonrakers

[Beardog]

On the other hand I have thought of the pissing off the neighbors as well as when I posted. We don't have the same situation as yours as there are zip neighbors on either 2 properties around our house. Besides when our new neighbor( name excluded in case he wants to remain anonymous if he joins tv) builds next to us. It may cause more grief if you shut full access off even if your entitled. People in general can make life hel_l when you get them hot. You could put steel poles in the lands border marking & set your fence back the 1.5 meters to keep the peace& that may as others stated be the best diplomatic way around it. You do have to watch out since it is common in LOS for the people to live here to not accept that you are now the owner. The steel p[oles marking the area or large concrete pillars to mark it off as yours would most likely be an asset to you & the neighbors would if not only think you are decent, but keep the damage to your dogs property & possibly yourself. pending on how vindictive the neighbors are. Truly the last thing you want to do is have to go to court. So Find out what stipulations are on the surrounding property & then I guess you get to decide your decision on granting them access& it really may be in your best interest to give them the little space to go through if it really isn't that much of a bother. As long as they understand your fence is your property not to be encroached upon. And usually a fence keeps you best friends with any neighbor. the worst that can happen if you let them by is they may think your an alright person & open doors that would otherwise be sealed tight in other issues throughout the years living on your property. Don't you love decisions like these?

Barry

[BAYBOY]

My two cents worth. best to keep a reasonable relationship with all the neighbours. Should you decide to give them access, do it right on your boundary, then fence your land off from that. As they have walked across for years, blocking them off will really set you up for unpleasent neighbours. However make the acess only wakling width, any wider and the cars and pickups will be really getting up your nose!

An aside. Two years ago we cleared a strip on family land, so all the family would have motor access to the land.(They all have seperate titles next to each other) Within days the bordering neighbours wanted to use it so as to gain vechile access to their adjoining land. First lot we said yes to and they then dropped all the palm trees on their land and in doing so blocked the road we put in.They took away the good timber and left the mess promising to come back and clear it. Never saw them for 2 years. Last week they came back, wanting access again and were told no way.

Plans now to put a locked gate up.The road is only for family.

BAYBOY

[zzaa09]

Why not just build the fence leaving the 1.2 meter access? Surely you won't suffer for it in any way. On the other hand making enemies with neighbors is a sure way to increase your suffering, especially if you intend to stay on the property.

Makes absolute common sense.

This is why I would hate to have a farang as a neighbour.

Someone that would complain that my dog is barking after moonrise, my rose bush is protruding 1 inch over his land, my fence is of the wrong colour, no thanks.

Where I live, my neighbours and I, each short cut over our lands, my dogs bark, their dogs bark, no problems.

This is Thailand and in this country they fully understand the word, compromise.

Keep it in mind; it may save you lots of agro later on.

Well said....

[William Osborne]

Just stand there with a rifle (copy) and shout " GET ORRF MY LAND !!"

[Crossy]

Moving to Housing and Land ownership forum.

I'd agree with the above, it would be unwise to piss-off the neighbours by preventing them accessing their property. However if they are simply using your land as a short-cut then you should be within your rights to restrict access.

[quiksilva]

I agree with Crossy. Its also worth noting that if their land is officially landlocked then they might in fact have a right of way over your property. On balance it's probably best just to give them informal access, unless it would severely impact on the value of your property by impeding your own access, views or water frontage etc.

[PattayaParent]

Hey, this came up in my final year Law exam at uni (UK)!!!

But that was 30 years ago.

From what I recall, if they have been using the right of way 'without let or hindrance' for a period of 12 years then it's a public right of way and you cannot prevent them from continuing to use it.

But that's English Law.

(and I passed by the way!)

[johnnyk]

Be a good neighbour and let them use a strip at the edge of your land. A metre or two won't kill you and it will help them. Build a fence or dig a trench alongside the strip so trucks can't use it. Talk about it over a beer, show them you are jai dee. At the end of the day you have to live among them so why needlessly piss them off? They can find ways to make your life hel_l.

Edited January 30, 2010 by johnnyk

[caf]

There is no such thing as a prescriptive easement in Thailand. Your neighbor CAN claim land from you if two conditions have been extant. 1) They have adversely posseed your land for a long time in an open and conspicuous way. 2) They have been paying your taxes on the land during that period.

I did not think there were ongoing taxes on land in thailalnd; just the initial transfer fee

am i wrong on that assumption

caf

[katabeachbum]

Hey, this came up in my final year Law exam at uni (UK)!!!

But that was 30 years ago.

From what I recall, if they have been using the right of way 'without let or hindrance' for a period of 12 years then it's a public right of way and you cannot prevent them from continuing to use it.

But that's English Law.

(and I passed by the way!)

I believe its only 5 years here.

So if they have used it for 50 years without climbing a fence (trespassing), and all they demand is 1,2 meter, I think you are lucky. I would make a fence providing them 1,2 meter before they claim a highway.

lease or usufruct is not suited, since this right to use your land follow their land, not the people living there

[LivinLOS]

google the phuket hotel that was sued for closing public access to the beach, not sure if that was strictly because it was access to public property however. The hotel lost btw.

Totally not true, the opposite in fact.. Beaches are public access but a landowner does not need to give free right of way to them.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=948

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=714

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=291

[LivinLOS]

Why not just build the fence leaving the 1.2 meter access? Surely you won't suffer for it in any way. On the other hand making enemies with neighbors is a sure way to increase your suffering, especially if you intend to stay on the property.

Makes absolute common sense.

This is why I would hate to have a farang as a neighbour.

Someone that would complain that my dog is barking after moonrise, my rose bush is protruding 1 inch over his land, my fence is of the wrong colour, no thanks.

Where I live, my neighbours and I, each short cut over our lands, my dogs bark, their dogs bark, no problems.

This is Thailand and in this country they fully understand the word, compromise.

Keep it in mind; it may save you lots of agro later on.

Seems to me they understand compromise when its me they want to compromise..

Expecting them to do so instantly results in monetary requests..

[LivinLOS]

Toll booth.. I am sure they would suddenly find an alternative !!

[sbk]

google the phuket hotel that was sued for closing public access to the beach, not sure if that was strictly because it was access to public property however. The hotel lost btw.

Totally not true, the opposite in fact.. Beaches are public access but a landowner does not need to give free right of way to them.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=948

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=714

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers...ails.asp?id=291

I guess I wasn't clear. The hotel blocked off an access to the beach that had been used by villagers for many many years and refused to provide an alternative access route. They were sued and lost and had to set a access point to the beach for people to use.