Thai-US Relations Are Drifting Apart

[Publicus]

That China is not amused by this arms' deal to it's "neighbor" is understandable; the US would be very annoyed if China would deliver arms to Mexico...or Cuba or any other Central- or South American country.

Why do Americans always look upon world situations from their own perspective? There are other places in the world as well you know.

LaoPo

so true

The difference is democracy and history, continental mainlands and their offshore islands. 

Cuba hasn't ever been a democracy (competitive political parties) while Mexico has a respectable history of democracy and, as a practical matter, Mexico would be insane to ally with the PRC. As is true for Mexico also is true to many countries of the isthmus of Central American and of northern S America on either side of the Panama Canal, which the PRC is trying to get closer to geographically and politically. Indeed, for this very reason, most countries of Central America continue to recognize Taiwan as the legitimate government of China.

Continental mainland countries also can get quite worked up about neighboring islands, as the US has with Cuba for 60 years, the PRC has over Taiwan for 70 years, Turkey and Greece have been over Cyprus, Sri Lanka where a PM of India was assassinated, the Faulkland/Malvinas 30 years ago which the UK assembled an assault force to reclaim altho the islands are off the shores of Argentina and in the opposite hemisphere from the UK. Then there was the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 which almost blew up the planet, and 1996 when for a week the PRC 24/7 fired missiles into the waters around Taiwan until the US dispatched two aircraft carrier battle groups to the Taiwan Strait to halt the nonsense.

Thailand and Asean countries have their beef over the Spratleys, to include the PRC, and some other assorted places but the "Island Syndrome" doesn't apply in this region as much as does access to offshore seabed energy resources. While Bush largely neglected Thailand and Asean, Obama is more engaged and involved in the region, which is why Thailand presently can use the increased attention from the US to raise beefs of its own, and because Abhisit knows he and Obama have a working relationship that can lead to somewhere.

Asean wants the US and the PRC balanced in the region, doesn't want one or the other dominating. The PRC meanwhile knows it has to neutralize the cheap labor market of Asean countries and has just entered into the PRC-Asean Free Trade Agreement...woe to Asean.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Publicus

[LaoPo]

That China is not amused by this arms' deal to it's "neighbor" is understandable; the US would be very annoyed if China would deliver arms to Mexico...or Cuba or any other Central- or South American country.

Why do Americans always look upon world situations from their own perspective? There are other places in the world as well you know.

LaoPo

so true

The difference is democracy and history, continental mainlands and their offshore islands. 

It's about the phsygological threats, not history, geography or democracy, that China opposes to the weapons' sale by the US to Taiwan with it's mere 23 million people.

Taiwan is even closer to China than Cuba is to the US and times have changed a bit since 1962 when JFK, correctly so, challenged the Soviet Union when it tried to install their missiles on Cuba, in a period the world was holding it's breath...and the world was inches away from WWIII !

But now you claim China has no rights protesting to weapons sales across the strait..across their own bordering coastal Provinces of Fujian with 44 million people, Guangdong with 110 Million and Zhejiang with 50 million people totaling more than 200 million people ? I'm not even talking Hong Kong here.

The Greeks would call such behavior Hypocrisy...or in other words: "stay out of MY garden but I'm entitled you enter YOUR garden at all times"

IMO I think that China is behaving quite "soft" to the weapons sale since they could easily bring Taiwan down on their knees by confiscating or temporarily closing down all the interests and factories Taiwan has on the mainland.

They could even withdraw all work visa and stop all -sea and air- traffic from and to Taiwan.

Taiwan would, within one or two weeks, suffer from a stroke, heart attack and broken legs, all at the same time, and be on intensive care for a long, long time.

China would hurt themselves also but not as big as Taiwan. China could easily beat Taiwan without even firing one single shot.

LaoPo

Edited February 6, 2010 by LaoPo

[Publicus]

That China is not amused by this arms' deal to it's "neighbor" is understandable; the US would be very annoyed if China would deliver arms to Mexico...or Cuba or any other Central- or South American country.

Why do Americans always look upon world situations from their own perspective? There are other places in the world as well you know.

LaoPo

so true

The difference is democracy and history, continental mainlands and their offshore islands. 

It's about the phsygological threats, not history, geography or democracy, that China opposes to the weapons' sale by the US to Taiwan with it's mere 23 million people.

Taiwan is even closer to China than Cuba is to the US and times have changed a bit since 1962 when JFK, correctly so, challenged the Soviet Union when it tried to install their missiles on Cuba, in a period the world was holding it's breath...and the world was inches away from WWIII !

But now you claim China has no rights protesting to weapons sales across the strait..across their own bordering coastal Provinces of Fujian with 44 million people, Guangdong with 110 Million and Zhejiang with 50 million people totaling more than 200 million people ? I'm not even talking Hong Kong here.

The Greeks would call such behavior Hypocrisy...or in other words: "stay out of MY garden but I'm entitled you enter YOUR garden at all times"

IMO I think that China is behaving quite "soft" to the weapons sale since they could easily bring Taiwan down on their knees by confiscating or temporarily closing down all the interests and factories Taiwan has on the mainland.

They could even withdraw all work visa and stop all -sea and air- traffic from and to Taiwan.

Taiwan would, within one or two weeks, suffer from a stroke, heart attack and broken legs, all at the same time, and be on intensive care for a long, long time.

China would hurt themselves also but not as big as Taiwan. China could easily beat Taiwan without even firing one single shot.

LaoPo

Relax.........

The difference is democracy and freedom.

Taiwan has it, the mainland does not have it. In fact, the mainland has the direct opposite of democracy and freedom. 

The threat to Beijing is that of Chinese in Asia having democracy and exercising it. By god, with democracy happening on Taiwan, next thing we know it might spread to the mainland. And then where would we be?   

Democracy already is being diminished in Hong Kong, as is the learning of the English language.

The PRC would promote totalitarianism in Cuba if the PRC thought it could get away with it, same as during the Cold War the USSR would have conquered Canada if, for even one moment, the Soviet Union thought they could have pulled it off. 

Besides, the US would subsidize Taiwan if the PRC ever thought it could starve the island into submission or to an economic collapse, as would a number of other Western and East Asian democracies, to include Thailand, Japan, S Korea, Singapore and more. The plans have been in place and updated for decades. Get real. (Remember the Berlin Airlift, all day and night, each day and night for over a year?)

Edited February 6, 2010 by Publicus

[jts-khorat]

I read somewhere that when you make a comparison between the number of Chinese studying engineering and other science degrees is so staggeringly high compared to the number of US citizens. It does not take are rocket scientist to figure out what that implies. Soon, there will be so much more Chinese scientists doing research and development projects. It is not difficult to believe that in the near future, the Chinese will overtake America. So should you be afraid? Be verrrry afraid?

So do you think China is going to team up with the EU and Japan against the USA?

No, very clearly its: USA, Canada, EU, Japan... and most likely Russia...

So therefore China has to hope for CHINA-INDIA-BRAZIL (?? GOOD LUCK)...

So please lets stop these very silly "China is taking over the world hysteria"... They DO NOT have the numbers... Its really very silly...

Why do you think that the Europeans and the Chinese could not go together very well?

At the moment the European economies try to de-couple as fast as possible from the US economy which is swimming like a stone (and the USA is so very unwilling to finally stand up for their past errors and *learn* from them). At least in Germany where I come from the Chinese are seen as the -- only -- savior who keeps our export-oriented economy from falling off the cliff.

I personally see the Americans implode on their greed and selfishness much faster than the Chinese on their over-population.

But this is just a thesis based on as things stand this very moment. I do not think any of us has a clear picture how the world might look in even just 20 years, so fast are things changing.

[jts-khorat]

IMO I think that China is behaving quite "soft" to the weapons sale since they could easily bring Taiwan down on their knees by confiscating or temporarily closing down all the interests and factories Taiwan has on the mainland.

They could even withdraw all work visa and stop all -sea and air- traffic from and to Taiwan.

Taiwan would, within one or two weeks, suffer from a stroke, heart attack and broken legs, all at the same time, and be on intensive care for a long, long time.

China would hurt themselves also but not as big as Taiwan. China could easily beat Taiwan without even firing one single shot.

LaoPo

So the question is: why don't they? Because the 'close-minded communist leaders' (as we believe of them) have seen that through the western-oriented Taiwan and Hong Kong, they could get easy and fast knowledge transfer and could see how much economic freedom could be allowed to make a place prosperous.

I find the perspective of China, so much longer-term than the average western government, their current strongest weapon. In a nuclear age, armed conflicts might quickly be of little benefit for anybody involved. The future might be economic strangulation (e.g. who holds the biggest amount of US debt, right now?).

[LaoPo]

IMO I think that China is behaving quite "soft" to the weapons sale since they could easily bring Taiwan down on their knees by confiscating or temporarily closing down all the interests and factories Taiwan has on the mainland.

They could even withdraw all work visa and stop all -sea and air- traffic from and to Taiwan.

Taiwan would, within one or two weeks, suffer from a stroke, heart attack and broken legs, all at the same time, and be on intensive care for a long, long time.

China would hurt themselves also but not as big as Taiwan. China could easily beat Taiwan without even firing one single shot.

LaoPo

So the question is: why don't they? Because the 'close-minded communist leaders' (as we believe of them) have seen that through the western-oriented Taiwan and Hong Kong, they could get easy and fast knowledge transfer and could see how much economic freedom could be allowed to make a place prosperous.

I find the perspective of China, so much longer-term than the average western government, their current strongest weapon. In a nuclear age, armed conflicts might quickly be of little benefit for anybody involved. The future might be economic strangulation (e.g. who holds the biggest amount of US debt, right now?).

They don't because they are more clever than we can -ever- anticipate; they would only do so in the utmost dangerous situation, for them.

We might think what we want and disagree with the regime in Beijing, and in many fields, correctly so, but to accuse them to be dumb leaders.....?

I agree with your opinion that the government has a much longer view and vision that most western ones; but that's nothing new in China. It has always been a society with long term thinking and planning, not short.

Otherwise you can't build a wall of 6,000 kms over steep mountain tops and valleys, considering that the distance from New York to Los Angeles is not even 4,000 kms

LaoPo

[toybits]

I get very scare of statements like this. When you say the difference is democracy and freedom, I somehow tend to read this as "the ILLUSION of Democracy and Freedom". Perhaps there is less freedom in the mainland, but they are making great strides towards a more open economy. People are getting rich - although nay sayers would say that there is a big gap between the rich and poor. Well its the same everywhere. It will take time for that wealth to spread.

Hong Kong was forcibly wrested from Chinese control after one of the Opium Wars. After 99 years of British Rule, it was returned to China. Of course the Chinese would be happy to regain control of that territory.

You don't honestly think that the Chinese would allow full autonomy to that piece of real estate. As far as I know the main language of the Chinese is NOT English. So is it really surprising that the learning of English is diminishing in Hong Kong?

The world stage has changed. It is no longer possible to have the kind of propaganda wars that used to occur during the middle of the last century.

I don't think another Berlin airlift would be possible for Taiwan. Beside, I do not think it would be necessary. The Mainland Chinese does not want to obliterate Taiwan. It wants it to reintegrate.

Relax.........

The difference is democracy and freedom.

Taiwan has it, the mainland does not have it. In fact, the mainland has the direct opposite of democracy and freedom.

The threat to Beijing is that of Chinese in Asia having democracy and exercising it. By god, with democracy happening on Taiwan, next thing we know it might spread to the mainland. And then where would we be?

Democracy already is being diminished in Hong Kong, as is the learning of the English language.

The PRC would promote totalitarianism in Cuba if the PRC thought it could get away with it, same as during the Cold War the USSR would have conquered Canada if, for even one moment, the Soviet Union thought they could have pulled it off.

Besides, the US would subsidize Taiwan if the PRC ever thought it could starve the island into submission or to an economic collapse, as would a number of other Western and East Asian democracies, to include Thailand, Japan, S Korea, Singapore and more. The plans have been in place and updated for decades. Get real. (Remember the Berlin Airlift, all day and night, each day and night for over a year?)

[hawthorne]

The US will try its best to force Thailand to act and perform in a manner they see fit. The US is a bully and a whore. They give money to underprivilaged girls and then take them home to do with as they want. If the girl does not play along they punish her. Apply sanctions and will not give military support to the family.

The US has a terrible track record in foreign affairs. IF the US did not import so many products from Thailand they could put so much influence on them or any other country. YES a big bully about to be knocked off the hill.

The US can not even control its own illigal alien problem. The US needs to allow all of the 3rd world to migrate so they can get cheap labor and put more people to work to save its aging population that is spent!!!!! Come on over Haiti have a free ride.

[toybits]

So true. Last thing I heard was that some Americans are even resorting to Kidnapping children and attempting to bring them into the US. Now even Hillary is getting into the picture and exerting pressure on the Haitian government to go easy on these suspected kidnappers. Lets see what happens...

The US will try its best to force Thailand to act and perform in a manner they see fit. The US is a bully and a whore. They give money to underprivilaged girls and then take them home to do with as they want. If the girl does not play along they punish her. Apply sanctions and will not give military support to the family.

The US has a terrible track record in foreign affairs. IF the US did not import so many products from Thailand they could put so much influence on them or any other country. YES a big bully about to be knocked off the hill.

The US can not even control its own illigal alien problem. The US needs to allow all of the 3rd world to migrate so they can get cheap labor and put more people to work to save its aging population that is spent!!!!! Come on over Haiti have a free ride.

[Publicus]

I read somewhere that when you make a comparison between the number of Chinese studying engineering and other science degrees is so staggeringly high compared to the number of US citizens. It does not take are rocket scientist to figure out what that implies. Soon, there will be so much more Chinese scientists doing research and development projects. It is not difficult to believe that in the near future, the Chinese will overtake America. So should you be afraid? Be verrrry afraid?

Congratulations on reading it 'somewhere" wherever somewhere is.

The Chinese continue to believe that their limited education of science and maths is prestigious and, expectedly, strongly denigrate learners in Chinese universities who have begun to study economics, finance, trade ('market socialism' style). Chinese learners continue to study science and and maths for the sake of acquiring knowledge of traditionally respected subjects, but have yet to demonstrate any ability to apply their knowledge to inventive and creative contributions to everyday life in their society. James Watt, Ben Franklin, Thomas Alva Edison, Henry Ford et al were inventors who were practical and realistic, not persons who acquired traditional knowledge simply to have it, to strut it and to flaunt it.

Patent applications in the PRC finally are increasing, up 11% over the previous year, but, alas, the government takes an average of 24.8 months to even figure out what the applicant is presenting to it. The result is that Chinese inventors are applying for patents abroad, most notably of course in the US, where the process is both more than competent and efficient. The PRC is trying to streamline its patent review and approval processes, but again, bureaucrats who know little to nothing of these matters are the blind leading the blind. I'm sure the PRC bureaucracy will accomplish some sort of greater efficiency in respect to patent applications in the country, but the PRC will have to part the seas to cause it to become the haven of inventors seeking timely and profitable patents that produce concrete benefits to society, the economy and to people in their everyday lives.

Behind the 8-ball again, I'm afraid. R&D, receive and duplicate. It's well known globally.       

[Publicus]

IMO I think that China is behaving quite "soft" to the weapons sale since they could easily bring Taiwan down on their knees by confiscating or temporarily closing down all the interests and factories Taiwan has on the mainland.

They could even withdraw all work visa and stop all -sea and air- traffic from and to Taiwan.

Taiwan would, within one or two weeks, suffer from a stroke, heart attack and broken legs, all at the same time, and be on intensive care for a long, long time.

China would hurt themselves also but not as big as Taiwan. China could easily beat Taiwan without even firing one single shot.

LaoPo

So the question is: why don't they? Because the 'close-minded communist leaders' (as we believe of them) have seen that through the western-oriented Taiwan and Hong Kong, they could get easy and fast knowledge transfer and could see how much economic freedom could be allowed to make a place prosperous.

I find the perspective of China, so much longer-term than the average western government, their current strongest weapon. In a nuclear age, armed conflicts might quickly be of little benefit for anybody involved. The future might be economic strangulation (e.g. who holds the biggest amount of US debt, right now?).

They don't because they are more clever than we can -ever- anticipate; they would only do so in the utmost dangerous situation, for them.

We might think what we want and disagree with the regime in Beijing, and in many fields, correctly so, but to accuse them to be dumb leaders.....?

I agree with your opinion that the government has a much longer view and vision that most western ones; but that's nothing new in China. It has always been a society with long term thinking and planning, not short.

Otherwise you can't build a wall of 6,000 kms over steep mountain tops and valleys, considering that the distance from New York to Los Angeles is not even 4,000 kms

LaoPo

A History of China prof I'd had during my return to grad studies in the mid 1990s USA, fluent in Chinese and married to a Chinese lady he'd met in Taiwan (during the Mao madness) liked to say that while domestically the US thinks in decades, the Chinese both domestically and in their (limited) world view think in centuries. 

We well know the US is a young country so for it to think in decades is hardly difficult to recognize or understand, that China is an old country of the very Old World so for it to think in centuries concomitantly is an expected mindset fixed long ago. Throughout China's history, life hardly ever changed, much less noticeably, even during the 200 years subsequent to the Industrial Revolution, which China's feudal rulers rejected outright. 

During the young but event rich history of the US, the world has changed rapidly and radically. While the US was dynamically growing, developing, expanding, China was grappling with the nosy and restless intrusions of the European powers into its setpiece culture and society. It took China and the Chinese mindset 200 years, circa 1800 - 2000, to learn that the world had changed radically and that the ancient Chinese fixed mindset needed a complete overhaul. The May 4th Movement (pegged to 1919 but, as we know, encompasses events, people, places and things anti and post 1919) was significant to China, but none the less constituted an inadequate response to the modern world as defined by Western, Christian (OMG) civilization.

The historical compulsion of the Chinese to think in centuries and to reject the 'temporary' and 'insigificant' emergence of the modern, industrial world was predictable and is presently understandable and explainable. Beginning a hundred years ago China began an upheaval of thought that has produced a tumultuous time of Chinese on Chinese conflict that has resulted in the terrible deaths of tens of millions of Chinese - to include Tienaman Square in 1989.

The present PRC dynasty of rulers, a young and nervous dynasty of business suits, has t osome extent compensated for China's laggard mindset and behaviors of the past 200 or so years by making significant economic progress in a very short time. However, the spirits of the Chinese ancestors continue to make the PRChina a traditional culture and country which forseeably always will remain slow to adapt and to change. And in one respect, democracy, the Chinese PRC or otherwise never will change so this is a self limiting factor the West does not have, nor is the West self constrained by it.

The future continues to belong to the creative, the inventive, the free - in short, those rooted in the traditions and richness of the civilization of ancient Greece.   

[LaoPo]

I read somewhere that when you make a comparison between the number of Chinese studying engineering and other science degrees is so staggeringly high compared to the number of US citizens. It does not take are rocket scientist to figure out what that implies. Soon, there will be so much more Chinese scientists doing research and development projects. It is not difficult to believe that in the near future, the Chinese will overtake America. So should you be afraid? Be verrrry afraid?

Congratulations on reading it 'somewhere" wherever somewhere is.

The Chinese continue to believe that their limited education of science and maths is prestigious and, expectedly, strongly denigrate learners in Chinese universities who have begun to study economics, finance, trade ('market socialism' style). Chinese learners continue to study science and and maths for the sake of acquiring knowledge of traditionally respected subjects, but have yet to demonstrate any ability to apply their knowledge to inventive and creative contributions to everyday life in their society. James Watt, Ben Franklin, Thomas Alva Edison, Henry Ford et al were inventors who were practical and realistic, not persons who acquired traditional knowledge simply to have it, to strut it and to flaunt it.

Patent applications in the PRC finally are increasing, up 11% over the previous year, but, alas, the government takes an average of 24.8 months to even figure out what the applicant is presenting to it. The result is that Chinese inventors are applying for patents abroad, most notably of course in the US, where the process is both more than competent and efficient. The PRC is trying to streamline its patent review and approval processes, but again, bureaucrats who know little to nothing of these matters are the blind leading the blind. I'm sure the PRC bureaucracy will accomplish some sort of greater efficiency in respect to patent applications in the country, but the PRC will have to part the seas to cause it to become the haven of inventors seeking timely and profitable patents that produce concrete benefits to society, the economy and to people in their everyday lives.

Behind the 8-ball again, I'm afraid. R&D, receive and duplicate. It's well known globally.       

You are surprisingly poor informed Publicus; I'm stunned about your ignorance

Maybe you ought to study the reports and facts a little, like this one by Thomson Reuters*, from November 2009, about:

CHINA AND RESEARCH PUBLICATIONS

CHINA

Research and collaboration in the new geography of science

http://researchanalytics.thomsonreuters.co...china-nov09.pdf

"Beginning around the mid-1990s, China’s output of scientific reports expanded dramatically...." snip-snip>>>>"From just over 20,000 papers in 1998, China’s output increased to upwards of 112,000 papers by 2008 —with the nation more than doubling its output since 2004 alone. By the measure of annual output, China surpassed Japan, the UK and Germany in 2006 and now stands second only to the USA."

"Receive and duplicate" Publicus ? Really, if you write something like that, maybe better do some homework first?

But, take your time to read the report by Thomson Reuters.

And, of course, your world famous inventors are well known; but maybe the earlier inventors from China are lesser known..of course they are since the Americas didn't even exist back than but everybody is so used to the inventions by the Chinese, amongst them the Four Great Inventions like paper making, the compass, gunpowder, and printing (both woodblock and movable type) that nobody remember the inventors anymore; but there are many more:

List of Chinese inventions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Interesting discussion P. isn't it ?

Don't worry, I don't expect a proper answer from you; you're always avoiding my questions and facts and circling around them, bringing up totally different subjects. I'm getting used to it.

* Thomson Reuters and Dr. Eugene Garfield** who founded ISI, or the Institute for Scientific Information, now a major part of Thomson Reuters' Science division:

http://researchanalytics.thomsonreuters.com/about/

** Dr. Garfield, a fellow American of yours and a well respected scientist.

LaoPo

[Spee]

I was surprised to read one comment that Thailand had been caring for the Hmong. Please note that the costs of care were underwritten by international aid agencies, with the largest contributor being the USA.

GK, kudos. You've hit home runs throughout this thread. Couldn't agree more.

For all those touting the economic and academic prowess of Communist China, let's not forget that this is the same China whose leadership is responsible for killing 10's of millions of its own citizens through the brutality of centralized tyranny. This is the same China which through the tyrannical force of government continues to prohibit the most basic of all human rights, which is the right to procreate.

The US and Thailand will always be strong allies, if for no other reason than to maintain geographic balance of power. The US and Thailand are also very strong economic partners, not on the scale of China, but strong none the less. This is a stable symbiotic relationship regardless of the reasons behind it.

As for the US relationship with China, a quote from Frankie Five Angels to Michael in the movie "Godfather, Part II," seems appropriate. "Your father did business with Hyman Roth, he respected Hyman Roth, but he never trusted Hyman Roth ..." (.....or his North Korean messenger boy Kim Jong Il)

This goes to the most central point, which is that market economics will always overcome the shortcomings and mistakes of government, whether it takes a year, a decade or a generation. The US tolerates China's tyranny because it is economically beneficial to do so. The US wants strong diplomatic ties with Thailand because it is economically beneficial to maintain them.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Spee

[brahmburgers]

Taiwan and China will unite one day in one form or another; the same as happened with Hong Kong and Macau. It's a matter of time.

The Taiwanese can't survive without China anymore....

I don't believe they will unite. Taiwan could survive quite well without China breathing down its neck. Geographical perspectives change over time. If Mexico was bigger and economically stronger than the US, it could make a full court press for taking back Texas, NM, AZ and southern California. After shouting the mantra for decades, much of world public opinion might back them up.

Same has happened in Europe, Africa and the middle east. If you looked at time-lapse graphics of those regions, over hundreds of years, it would look like a 1960's Grateful Dead light show, with territorial globs going all over the place.

That China is not amused by this arms' deal to it's "neighbor" is understandable; the US would be very annoyed if China would deliver arms to Mexico...or Cuba or any other Central- or South American country. LaoPo

Mexico and Cuba aren't territory coveted by the US.

The US will try its best to force Thailand to act and perform in a manner they see fit. The US is a bully and a whore. The US has a terrible track record in foreign affairs. IF the US did not import so many products from Thailand they could put so much influence on them or any other country. YES a big bully about to be knocked off the hill. The US can not even control its own illigal alien problem.

The US is quite open to immigrants, arguably more than any other country.

As for foreign affairs. Yes, the US has made mistakes, but for the most part, if oppressed people anywhere in the world want a savior who carries a big stick, they look to the US. Former Yugoslavia was a basket case not long ago. Who came in there with jets and bombs to start cleaning the place up? Nato didn't have the guts. China was absent as usual. The military action wasn't pretty, but it put a lid on the genocidal Serbian generals. Who went in full tilt to assist East Timor at a crucial time in its quest for independence? Not China, Not SE Asia/Asean (which is as ball-less as China in world affairs), it was US and Europe who came to assist the Timorese. Months later, Thailand added a platoon to direct traffic. Who formed a coalition to wrest Kuwait away from the Iraqis leading up to the first Gulf War? It was George Bush the elder. Where was China? Nowhere.

Where is China now that Iran is developing a nuclear bomb capability? ...trying to dampen sanctions, caring more about strengthening economic ties than about the middle east getting peppered with mushroom clouds. China is similarly cross eyed when it comes to dealing with N.Korea and Burma.

Edited February 7, 2010 by brahmburgers

[animatic]

Congratulations on reading it 'somewhere" wherever somewhere is.

The Chinese continue to believe that their limited education of science and maths is prestigious and, expectedly, strongly denigrate learners in Chinese universities who have begun to study economics, finance, trade ('market socialism' style). Chinese learners continue to study science and and maths for the sake of acquiring knowledge of traditionally respected subjects, but have yet to demonstrate any ability to apply their knowledge to inventive and creative contributions to everyday life in their society. James Watt, Ben Franklin, Thomas Alva Edison, Henry Ford et al were inventors who were practical and realistic, not persons who acquired traditional knowledge simply to have it, to strut it and to flaunt it.

Patent applications in the PRC finally are increasing, up 11% over the previous year, but, alas, the government takes an average of 24.8 months to even figure out what the applicant is presenting to it. The result is that Chinese inventors are applying for patents abroad, most notably of course in the US, where the process is both more than competent and efficient. The PRC is trying to streamline its patent review and approval processes, but again, bureaucrats who know little to nothing of these matters are the blind leading the blind. I'm sure the PRC bureaucracy will accomplish some sort of greater efficiency in respect to patent applications in the country, but the PRC will have to part the seas to cause it to become the haven of inventors seeking timely and profitable patents that produce concrete benefits to society, the economy and to people in their everyday lives.

Behind the 8-ball again, I'm afraid. R&D, receive and duplicate. It's well known globally.

You are surprisingly poor informed Publicus; I'm stunned about your ignorance

Maybe you ought to study the reports and facts a little, like this one by Thomson Reuters*, from November 2009, about:

CHINA AND RESEARCH PUBLICATIONS

CHINA

Research and collaboration in the new geography of science

http://researchanalytics.thomsonreuters.co...china-nov09.pdf

"Beginning around the mid-1990s, China’s output of scientific reports expanded dramatically...." snip-snip>>>>"From just over 20,000 papers in 1998, China’s output increased to upwards of 112,000 papers by 2008 —with the nation more than doubling its output since 2004 alone. By the measure of annual output, China surpassed Japan, the UK and Germany in 2006 and now stands second only to the USA."

"Receive and duplicate" Publicus ? Really, if you write something like that, maybe better do some homework first?

But, take your time to read the report by Thomson Reuters.

And, of course, your world famous inventors are well known; but maybe the earlier inventors from China are lesser known..of course they are since the Americas didn't even exist back than but everybody is so used to the inventions by the Chinese, amongst them the Four Great Inventions like paper making, the compass, gunpowder, and printing (both woodblock and movable type) that nobody remember the inventors anymore; but there are many more:

List of Chinese inventions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Interesting discussion P. isn't it ?

Don't worry, I don't expect a proper answer from you; you're always avoiding my questions and facts and circling around them, bringing up totally different subjects. I'm getting used to it.

* Thomson Reuters and Dr. Eugene Garfield** who founded ISI, or the Institute for Scientific Information, now a major part of Thomson Reuters' Science division:

http://researchanalytics.thomsonreuters.com/about/

** Dr. Garfield, a fellow American of yours and a well respected scientist.

LaoPo

You do know the difference between quality and quantity?

With Chinas numbers quantity can be assured,

but quality and actually useful inventions are another benchmark by far.

Their greatest inventions listed on Wiki are literally ages ago...

How about recent pure invention?

If they are CURRENTLY so brilliant at inventing and pure science,

why do they go to such lengths at industrial and scientific espionage?

They have made lots of progress, much of it based on purloined applied research,

or research done by others, and then donate/applied to mainland manufacturing,

and then used for their own uses,

thus your hagiographic adoration of Chinas progress is slightly skewed.

Edited February 7, 2010 by animatic

[Bagwan]

As for foreign affairs. Yes, the US has made mistakes, but for the most part, if oppressed people anywhere in the world want a savior who carries a big stick, they look to the US. Former Yugoslavia was a basket case not long ago. Who came in there with jets and bombs to start cleaning the place up? Nato didn't have the guts. China was absent as usual. The military action wasn't pretty, but it put a lid on the genocidal Serbian generals. Who went in full tilt to assist East Timor at a crucial time in its quest for independence? Not China, Not SE Asia/Asean (which is as ball-less as China in world affairs), it was US and Europe who came to assist the Timorese. Months later, Thailand added a platoon to direct traffic. Who formed a coalition to wrest Kuwait away from the Iraqis leading up to the first Gulf War? It was George Bush the elder. Where was China? Nowhere.

Where is China now that Iran is developing a nuclear bomb capability? ...trying to dampen sanctions, caring more about strengthening economic ties than about the middle east getting peppered with mushroom clouds. China is similarly cross eyed when it comes to dealing with N.Korea and Burma.

I really cannot be bothered to gainsay any of this but I am wondering when you retired from your former occupation as a Hollywood scriptwriter. I find your OTT analysis irritating, but the poster above who made a blistering inaccurate attack on the US is well out of court and I hope, and expect, that you and fellow countrymen (and country ladies!) climb into him.

In a serious conversation with three American friends one offered the opinion the the World would be a better place if the US handed over its foreign policy making to the UK. "You're so much better at it than we are or possibly will ever be," he offered. My head went into a spin - and accelerated when the other two agreed. All I could say was that maybe (if true) it was because we had had more experience. Further more our politicians and policy makers are not business tycoons or their nominees driven by commercial, and therefore financial, advantage. You would have to go someway back in the past to find a US President with clean hands.

For centuries when UK more or less ran the world there can be no doubt that an element of policy was governed to a degree by self interest. Sending a gunboat or two soon made renegade countries toe the line. That didn't make the UK over popular at times. Now that you are in charge, a sea change accelerated by being late in attending two World Wars and apparently eager to be in at the commencement of a third (God forbid), the process is repeated. You'll just have to live with it, it goes with the territory. It certainly doesn't help that, as the reputation of the UK is besmirched by shaven headed, tattooed, and often drunk, Neanderthal football hooligans, so it is with the American element given to boastful, loud mouthed and vulgar bravado often spouting unsupportable opinions and inaccurate facts. My experience is that if you want to influence anybody, shouting at them is not the best option - a quiet word is more often listened to, and hopefully heeded.

I do hope that you, or anybody else, will not fall into the trap that my observations are in any way a personal attack or bad mouthing the US. Far from it, as I statements I made in another thread that apparently caused some sensitive souls to complain to the mods who dismissed such a notion, I view the US as not unlike the curate's egg. I recognise that on balance the US is a force for good in the World as has successive UK Governments who have provided support in many actions. True friends are those that speak honestly and sincerely and are unafraid to offer a different viewpoint. Adults recognise this.

[brahmburgers]

Here's a little story I heard from a WWII veteran. Though it applies to Korea, it could also apply to China:

The American was involved in manufacturing large refrigeration units. A Korean company bought one, and said it would check it out and make orders in the future. The unit that was shipped from the US had a main shaft which had broken and was fixed by welding - before shipping from the States. Not surprisingly, the Korean company never made any more orders, though thousands of identical units were sold all over Asia, under the Korean company's brand name.

Later on, when the units were inspected (for patent infringement?), each one had its main shaft broken and welded, just as the original.

[brahmburgers]

Now that you are in charge, a sea change accelerated by being late in attending two World Wars....

thanks for my first deep chuckle of the day.

[LindsayBKK]

Really I wonder why?

Are there any countries with good US relations?

Even Australia has been treated badly by Previous US Government's trade wise.

Australia always ended up with the short straw thanks to John Howard.

And Mr. Obama was talking tough yesterday about other countries opening up their

markets eg. China so the USA can get a better deal.

Yes Mr. Obama the USA always wants more than the rest of us, we know.

That's why Americans are so popular around the world.

Edited February 7, 2010 by LindsayBKK

[Spee]

Even Australia has been treated badly by Previous US Government's trade wise.

Examples? Sources?

Off-topic baseless anti-US Rhetoric? Yep, thought so.

[animatic]

Really I wonder why?

Are there any countries with good US relations?

Even Australia has been treated badly by Previous US Government's trade wise.

Australia always ended up with the short straw thanks to John Howard.

And Mr. Obama was talking tough yesterday about other countries opening up their

markets eg. China so the USA can get a better deal.

Yes Mr. Obama the USA always wants more than the rest of us, we know.

That's why Americans are so popular around the world.

No different than any OTHER country trying to get the best deal it can for its nationals and business segment.

Everybody, you countrymen included, wants "a better deal".

[LomSak27]

LindsayBKK posted

Yes Mr. Obama the USA always wants more than the rest of us, we know.

That's why Americans are so popular around the world.

If you can look past your nose ... most likely you have ran across news articles which speak of the US running massive trade deficits. Maybe not with Australia, yes, but more than just China and Japan. Canada runs a surplus with US as does Thailand. In fact Thailand runs a healthy surplus while it pirates a wide range of good which would make the US's trade deficit with it much smaller, if they were uh, solf legally. In these economic times I expect Obama will be tougher on such matters as in, the US can always buy shrimp from, oh, Vietnam ...

[toybits]

China has been around for a long time. For several centuries, China was so technologically advance that it closed its doors to the world. The last century has not been too kind to the Chinese. However, it does not have to remain that way.

All of these "Great" persons you mentioned are new kids on the block. Yes, they invented some things. You just forgot to give credit to some of the fantastic achievements of the Chinese people. It does not matter whether these inventions were under imperial China or Communist China. Are you not just cherry-picking then?

To a westerner, it would be very important that there be monetary benefits to inventions and patenting. Perhaps it is true also for some Chinese. Perhaps there are more patriotic Chinese? This is my opinion - and I did not read it somewhere so you don't have to congratulate me on this.

Congratulations on reading it 'somewhere" wherever somewhere is.

The Chinese continue to believe that their limited education of science and maths is prestigious and, expectedly, strongly denigrate learners in Chinese universities who have begun to study economics, finance, trade ('market socialism' style). Chinese learners continue to study science and and maths for the sake of acquiring knowledge of traditionally respected subjects, but have yet to demonstrate any ability to apply their knowledge to inventive and creative contributions to everyday life in their society. James Watt, Ben Franklin, Thomas Alva Edison, Henry Ford et al were inventors who were practical and realistic, not persons who acquired traditional knowledge simply to have it, to strut it and to flaunt it.

Patent applications in the PRC finally are increasing, up 11% over the previous year, but, alas, the government takes an average of 24.8 months to even figure out what the applicant is presenting to it. The result is that Chinese inventors are applying for patents abroad, most notably of course in the US, where the process is both more than competent and efficient. The PRC is trying to streamline its patent review and approval processes, but again, bureaucrats who know little to nothing of these matters are the blind leading the blind. I'm sure the PRC bureaucracy will accomplish some sort of greater efficiency in respect to patent applications in the country, but the PRC will have to part the seas to cause it to become the haven of inventors seeking timely and profitable patents that produce concrete benefits to society, the economy and to people in their everyday lives.

Behind the 8-ball again, I'm afraid. R&D, receive and duplicate. It's well known globally.

Edited February 7, 2010 by toybits

[LaoPo]

You do know the difference between quality and quantity?

With Chinas numbers quantity can be assured,

but quality and actually useful inventions are another benchmark by far.

Are you saying that the quality of the USA/China Science reports is lower or higher because they are in the lead, being #1 and #2 with so many Science publications ?

I'm not able, same as you aren't, to judge upon the quality of those Science reports, written by Scientists from whatever country, yet you claim to have the knowledge to ridicule science reports, written and published by scientists from another country: China in this case.

I was answering to Pubicus who claimed that China is doing nothing more than "Receive and duplicate" , and correcting him with the facts from the Thomson Reuters Science report but now you step in talking about quality and quantity; that's poor defense to Publicus' unjust claim.

And, I'm sorry but the report is published by your own American Thomson Reuters Company*, Science Division not by me.

But, if you have better and more reliable information about the quality and quantity of world wide Science reports, please don't hesitate to inform us.

* We're talking a public information company here with a market value of more than $ 27.6 BILLION, NYSE listed, but if you are starting to ridicule the reports by such an important information company than discussion becomes worthless.

LaoPo

[toybits]

If I were a Thai and was reading your post, do you honestly think that I would be more likely to favour Americans?

The USofA has been around for only slightly over 2 centuries. China has been around for around 2 millenia. They have a long memory and have infinitely more patience than Americans.

Scientific and Industrial Espionage? Tell me which country does not do such thing. The USofA has probably one of the best intel-gathering machinery in the world.

Purloined applied research? Samo-samo. Everyone does it.

Hagiographic adoration of China? So we should instead adore the mighty USofA???

You do know the difference between quality and quantity?

With Chinas numbers quantity can be assured,

but quality and actually useful inventions are another benchmark by far.

Their greatest inventions listed on Wiki are literally ages ago...

How about recent pure invention?

If they are CURRENTLY so brilliant at inventing and pure science,

why do they go to such lengths at industrial and scientific espionage?

They have made lots of progress, much of it based on purloined applied research,

or research done by others, and then donate/applied to mainland manufacturing,

and then used for their own uses,

thus your hagiographic adoration of Chinas progress is slightly skewed.

[brahmburgers]

Here's a science challenge for Chinese scientists:

Do a double blind test of whether eating pulverized dried tiger penis is better for old men to get hard-ons, than eating pulverized dog or cat bones, or whatever.

I doubt they've ever done real scientific tests on such things, and even if the results showed that ingesting tiger bones has no better effect, it wouldn't change Chinese peoples' perceptions.

I agree with Publicus that quantity (of scientific papers) doesn't necessarily translate to quality. If they are advancing scientifically, then where is the proof in the form of innovative new products? I'm not talking about paper or gunpowder, both of which are commendable for hundreds of years ago. Fact is, nearly all current & practical innovations stem from the US, Europe or Japan. That may change, but so too could China slip back to the types of mayhem which reflect parts of its earlier history - such as the Cultural Revolution, where roving bands of students, driven by Mao's stupid mandates, went and persecuted intellectuals and destroyed Tibetan temples.

Here's yet another of Chairman Mao's incredibly stupid mandates that few people know about: During his reign, there was a problem with sparrows eating stored grain. The solution? Command China's billions to kill all sparrows. Really. Sparrows were killed throughout the countryside. The result, the following year, insects decimated much more of the stored grain than birds ever did (the sparrows weren't around to keep the incects in check) .... so famine took hold. It's a reminder of how readily the Chinese people are driven like sheep to follow their leaders, no matter how stupid the mandates. Thailand would do better to look to the US as an example, ....at least Americans can think for themselves, and aren't shot for thinking individually.

[animatic]

Here's a science challenge for Chinese scientists:

Do a double blind test of whether eating pulverized dried tiger penis is better for old men to get hard-ons, than eating pulverized dog or cat bones, or whatever.

I doubt they've ever done real scientific tests on such things, and even if the results showed that ingesting tiger bones has no better effect, it wouldn't change Chinese peoples' perceptions.....

Thailand would do better to look to the US as an example, ....at least Americans can think for themselves, and aren't shot for thinking individually.

Yes lets compare Pulverised Tiger Penis to oh say Viagra.. and see which works.

I was not trying to arbitrarily raise USA over China in my argument,

but to simply not agree with the implied statements that ;

'because PRC has large numbers of science papers, that the quality is there.'

There is a long standing dictum on Uni life 'Publish Or Die',

and so any thing small or curious findings can become fodder for a paper,

doesn't mean it's very news worthy or useful, just because you publish a paper on it.

Some scientist publish because it's expected not because they have something valid or worthy.

And the practical aplications to real world issues of pure science is

more important than just getting published for 'something'.

So please tell me what great computing inroads or physics inroads are made by PRC scientists.

I would love to hear what new paths they have plowed.

An interesting point might also be to ALSO count the number of

highly regarded peer reviewed science papers

and correlated to 'USA Educated PRC Chinese Scientists',

vs solely mainland educated, who are publishing the 'well reviewed' papers.

You don't see that quality is much more important than just having a high number of papers?

Or is slagging USA more important that the real argument?

The last Bburg. comment is a bit over the top,

but yes individuality is much more highly valued in USA than PRC

and that is often reflected in academic research.

And It really makes no difference if China is 2 millenia old or 200 years old.

But the judgment you use.. life time of government.

USA is 220 years old

and PRC is only 61 years old.... oops.

North America was populated back in the time China was populated,

it's not like no one lived there prior to USA becoming a Nation.

Norsmen, Portugese, Spanish, French and English all lived

and work in America long before the USA government existed.

And just because they were late in coming doesn't mean no culture existed there.

American Indian tribes have equal millenia of time as cultures there

compared to China's tribes there. Yet neither was PRC or USA.

So actually China and Americans have equal times in place,

and PRC is MUCH younger that USA.

[toybits]

My goodness, you are cherry picking again. So the PRC has been around for only a few decades right? And what about the time before the PRC was created? You fall victim to your own line of reasoning.

Thanks to the Chinese, your brilliant western scientists have paper to print their articles on.

North America was populated before the white man came. You failed to mention that the white man tried to exterminate the "Native Americans" . Now you put them in reservations where they cannot plant anything. Good thing some states have allowed them to manage casinos and get back a little bit of something.

And It really makes no difference if China is 2 millenia old or 200 years old.

But the judgment you use.. life time of government.

USA is 220 years old

and PRC is only 61 years old.... oops.

North America was populated back in the time China was populated,

it's not like no one lived there prior to USA becoming a Nation.

Norsmen, Portugese, Spanish, French and English all lived

and work in America long before the USA government existed.

And just because they were late in coming doesn't mean no culture existed there.

American Indian tribes have equal millenia of time as cultures there

compared to China's tribes there. Yet neither was PRC or USA.

So actually China and Americans have equal times in place,

and PRC is MUCH younger that USA.

[toybits]

Ha ha... why does this remind me of Sea Monkeys? Or Amway Products, Herbalife, etc 2009 Swine Flu vaccines...

I totally agree that Chairman Mao Tze Dong was a loony. But the new breed of Chinese are not in anyway like Mao. Somehow this is difficult for some people to see. Or perhaps it is just self denial that within their lifetime, the lowly Commy Chinese would challenge the mighty and established "rulers" of the planet.

Here's a science challenge for Chinese scientists:

Do a double blind test of whether eating pulverized dried tiger penis is better for old men to get hard-ons, than eating pulverized dog or cat bones, or whatever.

I doubt they've ever done real scientific tests on such things, and even if the results showed that ingesting tiger bones has no better effect, it wouldn't change Chinese peoples' perceptions.

I agree with Publicus that quantity (of scientific papers) doesn't necessarily translate to quality. If they are advancing scientifically, then where is the proof in the form of innovative new products? I'm not talking about paper or gunpowder, both of which are commendable for hundreds of years ago. Fact is, nearly all current & practical innovations stem from the US, Europe or Japan. That may change, but so too could China slip back to the types of mayhem which reflect parts of its earlier history - such as the Cultural Revolution, where roving bands of students, driven by Mao's stupid mandates, went and persecuted intellectuals and destroyed Tibetan temples.

Here's yet another of Chairman Mao's incredibly stupid mandates that few people know about: During his reign, there was a problem with sparrows eating stored grain. The solution? Command China's billions to kill all sparrows. Really. Sparrows were killed throughout the countryside. The result, the following year, insects decimated much more of the stored grain than birds ever did (the sparrows weren't around to keep the incects in check) .... so famine took hold. It's a reminder of how readily the Chinese people are driven like sheep to follow their leaders, no matter how stupid the mandates. Thailand would do better to look to the US as an example, ....at least Americans can think for themselves, and aren't shot for thinking individually.

[Publicus]

You do know the difference between quality and quantity?

With Chinas numbers quantity can be assured,

but quality and actually useful inventions are another benchmark by far.

Are you saying that the quality of the USA/China Science reports is lower or higher because they are in the lead, being #1 and #2 with so many Science publications ?

I'm not able, same as you aren't, to judge upon the quality of those Science reports, written by Scientists from whatever country, yet you claim to have the knowledge to ridicule science reports, written and published by scientists from another country: China in this case.

I was answering to Pubicus who claimed that China is doing nothing more than "Receive and duplicate" , and correcting him with the facts from the Thomson Reuters Science report but now you step in talking about quality and quantity; that's poor defense to Publicus' unjust claim.

And, I'm sorry but the report is published by your own American Thomson Reuters Company*, Science Division not by me.

But, if you have better and more reliable information about the quality and quantity of world wide Science reports, please don't hesitate to inform us.

* We're talking a public information company here with a market value of more than $ 27.6 BILLION, NYSE listed, but if you are starting to ridicule the reports by such an important information company than discussion becomes worthless.

LaoPo

The Tompson Reuters report was a survey of recent scientific reports in the PRC which strictly focused on volume. The T-R report did not address quality not did it make any pretensions to do so. The report strictly presented data.

If I'd made 10,000 posts to TVF that would be data. If however, I were to attempt to assign 'quality standards' to an anlysis of the posts, or some representative sample of the total, then we would have more than simply data. We might argue over the 'quality' findings and/or particular standards, but the fact would remain we'd have more to disucss than data alone.

Also, as with the Thais, the Chinese of ancient times valued knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Applying knowledge to everyday life, especially in economics, is the differentiating factor between Chinese inventions of old and the Industrial Revolution which the Chinese rejected out of hand until British mano' war battle ships introduced a significant aspect of new technological inventions.

For whatever reason, Chinese civilization had stagnated by circa A.D. 1600 and, morover, now has had to adopt a follow the leader(s) development strategy. Ohhh, would the PRChnese love to produce an aircraft carrier! Year before last it was news that PRC scientists and industrialists had produced the first all-Chinese made commercial passenger aircraft - with all of 28 passenger seats.

What science?