You and your Thai Wife of 20 years.

[jfchandler]

I had the misfortune last month of being pickpocketed on the Skytrain and losing my wallet with, among other things, one U.S. credit card and one U.S. debit card inside.

Because I discovered my wallet was gone very quickly after the theft (as I tried to exit at my destination station and found I had nothing in my pocket), I was able to get home quickly and call both banks' hotline numbers to freeze both the cards. As time passed, I found the credit card hadn't been used at all. But the thief/s were able to ring up more than $1,000 U.S. in purchases in a 30 minute period that afternoon before the debit card was frozen.

After the theft, of course, I reported it to BTS and they had me file a report with the appropriate local Thai police station. Under U.S. law, because I reported the theft immediately even before the fraudulent purchases had processed (but somehow not in time to stop the purchases themselves), my bank is refunding the fraudulent purchase amounts to my debit card account. But now I'm trying to figure out how to best proceed.

Once I saw where the fraudulent purchases were made, the store locations included some department store places where very likely the purchase transaction may have been captured on the store's local CCTV security system. And of course, I know the exact date and amounts and pretty much exact times of the purchases, since I got that info from my bank.

The main question here is: If I go to the Thai department store with the info I have in an effort to help them catch the thief/s by trying to locate them on their CCTV system, and then feed any useful info to the Thai police, are the stores going to try to hold me responsible for the fraudulent charges? Presumably after my bank and the card network have reversed the payments to the stores because the purchases were made by others with my stolen card...

I'm not going to be out any money in this... And just on principle, I'd like to try to help catch the thie/fs who are pickpocketing on the Skytrain. But I don't want to get into a hassle with the department stores over liability for the purchases...

I asked my Thai wife about the comparable situation if someone's Thai bank card is stolen and used for fraudulent purchases. And she, being far from a banking expert, told me that if the same thing happened with her Thai bank card, she'd be out the money and the Thai bank would not refund/restore the funds to her account.

Anyone with clear knowledge who can advise on this kind of a situation??? Thanks much...

[britmaveric]

The charges will be reversed. The stores where the purchases were made will take the hit. (end of story) The store will then take action against the thieves if this is possible or file insurance claim.

[jfchandler]

Thanks for the reply, Brit, but you really didn't answer either of the main questions I posed above...

1. If I go to the store(s) trying to help identify/catch the thief(s), are they going to hassle me to pay for the purchases?

2. If I had a Thai bank card stolen and fraudulently used instead, would the Thai bank refund the amounts, or I'd be out of luck???

[britmaveric]

1. I would not go to the store and try to involve yourself. This is the store's problem not yours.

2. As for a thai bank - yes you would be out of luck.

[aurelius]

The store cannot reasonably hassle you because they are part of a formal "charge back" process between all the banks. But most likely they wouldn't share VDO with you without a police request for the "evidence".

The store may not be charged though - there has to be proof that the store was negligent in accepting the card - if the signature was at all similar to that on the card then the store has basis for a claim that they were diligent in performing the checks. In this case, your bank is wearing the cost of the write off - sometimes it happens that way. Technically the bank has to be able to proof how you signed your name - so unless the stolen card was recovered, its actually difficult to prove that the signature on the sales slip was the same as that on the card.

Second question, if you advised a Thai bank before the transactions were made, they would not be approved in the first place. Thai bank debit transactions are 100% authorised which means each and every transaction goes for authorisation. At the largest debit issuing bank here the time limit is something like 5 seconds - if your card is held, after 5 seconds you are protected from further transactions. However, anything before that, you are on your own.

Other countries operate with a floor limit, which means that some transactions below certain limits are not authorised back to the bank before accepting the purchase. Not sure if this applies in your case, but is definately common place. Banks/countries with low fraud levels and who are also trying to reduce telecom costs will adopt this approach.

[jfchandler]

Thanks for the response, Aurelius....

When I filed the original police report the afternoon of the theft, at that point, I didn't know from my debit card bank what if any purchases had been made/attempted. Because of the time difference vs. the U.S., when I called to freeze my card via a hotline, it was early morning U.S. time and my bank office was not open then. The card was frozen as of my call, but I wasn't able to speak with bank staff until later.

It was only very late night here that same day, morning in the U.S., when I was able to reach a live bank staff by phone, and then they saw only the couple of transaction I had made earlier in that day Thai time...but nothing else. It was only the next day when the bunch of fraud purchases from late that prior afternoon showed up with my U.S. bank's system. In later checking the transaction times, they were all made in a half hour span after my card was stolen, and before I could get home to call the hotline to freeze my card.

I got all the funds credited back to my account today by my U.S. bank.....

What's interesting to me is that here in LOS, when I use a credit card, I'm often asked to show ID... But when I use a VISA or MC debit card, the merchants never seem to ask for any ID, and just sometimes look casually to compare the signatures on the slip vs. the back of the card... If they can ask for ID with credit card purchases, why not with debit card purchases???

And second, for reasons that I won't go into the detail of explaining here, I'm pretty certain the person who swiped my wallet was Thai (apart from this being Thailand).... and I'm of course a white guy American... with a name to match. So whatever Thai person showed up using my card probably didn't even remotely look like a person with my name.... but that sure didn't stop the purchases....

And lastly, I have unusual/bad handwriting style that pretty much anyone (Thai or otherwise) would have a hard time to replicate. So if anyone checked the signatures when those fraudulent purchases were being made, they couldn't have looked too closely... No one I've ever known has been able to even remotely approximate my handwritten signature....

The one thing additional this did spur me to do was to call the banks where I have debit cards and have them reduce the permitted daily limit on point of sale transactions. Often U.S. banks give you $500 or $1000 per day as the default for debit card purchases.

Two of my banks acted on my request and lowered my POS limit to another amount I had requested. One of my banks said they wouldn't make any adjustment and I was stuck with the default limit for their particular card.

[aurelius]

A few further comments..

Its not the cashier's responsibility to check nationality, gender or any other characteristic, except the signature and that the name on the slip is the same as the name on the card. While it makes sense to check, one can't expect cashiers to make personal judgements all over the world, and visa doesn't require it.

The signature matching question is tricky and plays out differently under different legal systems. Thai courts require evidence. Who can prove, if your card is still missing, whether or not the guy who used it signed with a signature that looked similar to yours, or not. There is no evidence to match to, unless the card is subsequently found. To claim -" I sign everything the same" is not valid in a Thai court without the evidence of the card itself - therefore in Thailand there are actually relatively few successful claims brought against the merchants (i.e. for negligence in checking). In some other countries, the court takes a broader view and is willing to accept that the signature on a application form or other document is a representation of the cardholder signature which can be compared against the signature on the sales slip.

I don't know why your debit card purchases are not checked with ID; co-incidence; or maybe that fact that in Thailand there is a zero floor limit on debit cards, so cashiers are used to transactions which are 100% authorised - but that assumes that they can tell a debit card from a credit card, which I doubt.

Your txns are obviously on some sort of batch basis from your description; but isn't it a bit scary to have a bank that doesn't operate a live body 24 hour call center?? In any case, they returned your funds promptly which is great and better than would happen here.

Resetting txn limits is a good idea to limit exposure. Some debit cards in Thailand can set the spending limit to zero for people who are really nervous about point of sale.

Moral of the story - keep a hold on your wallet! Good luck.

[jfchandler]

In the aftermath of this, I made other arrangements so that I never carry my wallet in any of my pants pockets anymore... I had a friend who showed me he had pants with zippered pockets... But I don't have any of those in my wardrobe, and don't plan to go looking for them. But so-called cargo pocket pants with button down pocket covers probably would be better than just open pockets, where I was carrying my wallet before.

I took the step of getting a small shoulder bag to carry my wallet, keys and mobile phone.... And for times out at night when a shoulder bag isn't really happening, I got a very small, unobtrusive pouch held in place by my belt to hold my keys, a bit of money and maybe a card or two. So far, those alternatives seem to be working OK.

About the role of merchants and cashiers... I worked as a 7/11 cashier for some years to get thru university back in the U.S.... It's really no big deal to ask customers to show some normal ID like a picture driver's license or ID card or even copy of passport. And if merchants can routinely do it for credit card purchases, there's absolutely no reason they can't for debit card purchases... It's really just a matter of company policy.

And the poor cashiers, even in Thailand, must be able to tell the difference.. Because as I said, I've never yet had one ask me for ID here using any of my debit cards... But I think they almost always seem to ask for ID when I'm using a credit card...

Fortunately, the U.S. has a consumer protection law that protects people who have their cards stolen, at varying levels, depending on how quickly after the victim notices the theft that they report it. That's actually a pretty sensible way to go. It's pretty unfortunate that Thailand seems to be in the dark ages on this, with a situation where ANY fraudulent charges rung up before a victim can report the theft are the responsibility of the victim. Makes me glad I'm carrying U.S. cards instead, and that I keep my funds in a place that has a stronger consumer orientation.

About your comment about the bank not being 24 hours, it's a small local bank in the U.S. So their offices and staff are there just during banking business hours. However, they did/do have a 24 hour hotline number for reporting lost/stolen cards, which I used. So there was no delay in getting the card frozen, other than the time it took me to walk home from the BTS station and then make the phone call. The only delay was in me finding out just how much had been rung up in fraudulent charges.... a delay that includes the processing lag for info to make it from Thailand to the U.S.

Lastly, I should mention, to cap this story, that two days ago...almost two weeks after the original theft... I got an email from an international school out in Samut Prakan saying that someone had dropped my wallet into their lost and found basket... Except for my BTS pass, and two bank cards and the small amount of Thai money I had, everything else was there still in my wallet... driver's license, copy passport, hospital and store membership cards, etc etc.. So I went out to the school yesterday and picked it up...

Pretty amazing.... I can't begin to guess how many times in 1,000 like this that people ever get anything back...much less most of what was taken... Of course, all those things that I got back had no particular economic value to the thieves....

[JimGant]

Some debit cards in Thailand can set the spending limit to zero for people who are really nervous about point of sale.

After reading horror stories about how poorly some (all?) Thai banks deal with debit card fraud, I made sure that my Thai bank issued a strictly ATM card, i.e., one that can only be used in the pin mode vice the dual purpose ATM/Debit card that can be used both in pin and signature modes. As aurelius points out, the same effect can be achieved by having your POS limit set to zero. Bangkok Bank's Be1st card works in this fashion.

My US issued card is also ATM only, as it is issued against a savings account. I guess I'm still old school when it comes to debit cards. Using a credit card, which is always payed off in full, has the same utility as a debit card (plus, a little 'float' thrown in). And, should it come down to a protracted finger pointing session, I would rather this occur over a frozen credit limit vice an empty bank account.

[jfchandler]

Not quite, Jim, re the utility between credit and debit cards...

One big difference, of course, is if a person is making use of rewards checking accounts, via debit card usage, to gain 4-5% APY interest on their savings in these current times of near 0% rates...

And, given the U.S. consumer protection laws, at least for U.S. debit cards (not talking about Thai ones here), one's exposure to $ fraud can be almost nil, despite the headaches involved whenever one's cards are stolen/lost.

Under U.S. law, a person who has their debit cards stolen is responsible for no more than $50 in any fraudulent charges, provided they report the loss within 48 hours of them being aware the card is lost or stolen. In my case, my bank didn't hold me responsible for anything, because they knew I had reported the theft even before they saw the incoming charges.

There's other limits thereafter beyond the 48 hours period under the federal law, depending on how quickly you report after becoming aware of the loss of the card. The time issue there, under the law, is not related to when the card was stolen or fraudulent charges rung up, but rather, reporting promptly once the cardholder becomes aware of the theft, whenever that is.

Lastly, of course, I think most U.S. banks also will allow you to reduce your daily limit on POS (point of sale, non-PIN purchases). Although if a person were to set the limit to $0, then they'd obviously be locking themselves out of using and benefiting from rewards checking accounts.

My experience didn't warn me off using U.S. debit cards. But it did make me change how I carry and secure my wallet, mobile, keys, etc....

I guess I'm still old school when it comes to debit cards. Using a credit card, which is always payed off in full, has the same utility as a debit card (plus, a little 'float' thrown in). And, should it come down to a protracted finger pointing session, I would rather this occur over a frozen credit limit vice an empty bank account.

[JimGant]

One big difference, of course, is if a person is making use of rewards checking accounts, via debit card usage, to gain 4-5% APY interest on their savings in these current times of near 0% rates...

Hmmm. If you've got a debit card that pays 4-5% in rewards -- especially if the bank's credit card pays zilch -- then, yeah, the debit card is the way to go (I'd even suck it up, knowing I might have to suffer an empty bank account, albeit usually briefly -- but probably at the same time one of my automatic debits tries to tap my now empty bank account....).

However, in my case, my USAA credit card's reward feature pays back 1% of purchase costs -- but their debit card only pays back one-half of 1% (and this only in the signature mode, not pin mode). No brainer, in my situation, where my credit balance is paid in full automatically at last day due (which, if purchase is near the start of a new cycle, I get a nearly two month free loan. Which I certainly don't factor into my budgeting -- but the idea is nice).

No, a debit card can be problematic, as pointed out in the following two articles:

Debit cards suck, part 1

Debit cards suck, part 2

And a debit card issued and used in Thailand could be a disaster....although the horror stories I've heard were several years old (any recent debit card fraud stories from Thailand out there?)

[jfchandler]

Jim, those articles aren't particularly compelling, or entirely accurate, as relates to debit cards...

First, yes, it's relatively easy to earn 4% interest today on a rewards checking account with a balance of up to $25,000, which is far better than any liquid money account you're going to find these days.... The price for earning that usually is to make 10-12 debit transactions per month, usually of any even small amounts, stuff like grocery and other shopping that most people do anyway....

Here is a good place to see the kind of rewards accounts that are available.

If you're taking advantage of that kind of account, and keeping a substantial balance in the account to earn good money on interest, a couple things are obvious. 1. You don't have to worry too much about overdraft charges. 2. No one's going to be able to "empty" your account with a typical $500 per day limit on POS charges set by you or your bank. 3. As long as you report any theft of a card within two days of LEARNING of it, your maximum liability is $50.

In more than two years of using those kinds of cards here, I've never had any problem with any merchant over charges. And I've never had any merchant decline to take a debit card here in favor of a credit card.

There are a couple things, though. If I was making a large purchase or one where "returnability" was a consideration, I would use a credit card instead of a debit card, since it is easier to dispute a credit card purchase gone bad. Such as if you buy something, it doesn't work when you get it home, and you have to return it, whether the merchant likes it or not.

As for your comments about the USAA credit card and that approach, the cash back feature there hardly compares with the interest earnings from a rewards checking account.

But for someone who wants to go that way instead, the Schwab Visa card with 2% cash back on all purchases credited to your no-fees Schwab brokerage account (which is automatically established when you open the credit card account) is a much better way to go....

No reason a person can't do both... When I'm buying airline tickets, renting a car or making pther high value purchases, I'll use a credit card. When I'm doing day to day stuff, like topping up my BTS card pass or buying groceries at the supermarket, I'll use the debit cards...

[JimGant]

As for your comments about the USAA credit card and that approach, the cash back feature there hardly compares with the interest earnings from a rewards checking account.

You're certainly right about that. Actually, I had never heard of 'high yield reward checking accounts' until now. Interesting concept. To be able to pay that amount of interest must mean the merchants' scream about the high cost of accepting plastic rings true. But, their problem, not ours.

However, the requirement for at least 10-12 uses of one's debit card per month would make me ineligible, at least in Thailand, where, for me, cash is king. Other than that -- and my aversion to debit cards -- it does sound like a winner.

One observation a la Google:

Are high yield checking accounts worth it?

The answer is – it depends. From a mathematical standpoint, yes, higher interest rates are good. But the added hassles may not be worth it on a time/maintenance level. I personally haven’t opened one because I am happy with my current bank and I can’t be bothered by making a minimum of 10 debit card transactions per month and making sure I swipe the card as a credit card. I don’t have the patience to keep track of how many transactions I have made, and I don’t want to get in the habit of running to the gas station or Wal-Mart to make a series of transactions at the end of the month to ensure I continue to meet the account requirements.

On the other hand, the interest rates are very nice and I certainly understand why many people are attracted to these accounts. It’s not really that much work to maintain compliance – it’s just more than I am willing to do on a regular basis.

[Kf6vci]

Glad it worked out this well - try get Tourist Police to look at the video footage etc. Press charges!

I had a card copied, then used 2 x in Australia. $ 1,900 in some village nail shop Is it usual to buy the whole stock in such a 1-3 people shop in the middle of nowhere?

The bank wasn't interested... You need to do the leg work. but here, since the perp will keep doing this, they might very well pursue this!

Chris

[jfchandler]

Jim, as you'll well recall, I was and am one of the folks here more vocal and active as relates to the Thai banks' 150 baht fee on foreign card ATM withdrawals. And that's still true.

But these days, I find myself rarely withdrawing ATM cash anymore, except to pay rent and a few other things, like cash for street vendors who don't take plastic. Otherwise, to satisfy my multiple rewards checking accounts, I pretty much do everything via the debit cards...

If I was using just one, it'd be no sweat. But since I have multiple each month, it does take some focus and keeping track to keep everything in order and earning (now) 4% APY on free cash...

I don't think I spend on things I wouldn't otherwise do. But I do make a point of arranging my shopping activities in a way that maximizes my number of debit card swipes... Once you get into the habit of it, it's really pretty simple.

Back in the U.S., some folks do things like go to the gas station and do 10 $2 gas purchases/swipes at the pump on their cards. I don't do anything like that here (or there). But for example, if I have a large shopping here with food stuff and maybe hardware or electric stuff, I'll ask the cashier to ring them up separately, and hence two transaction...

If anything, I think, the thing to be on guard about is that a user DOESN'T let the financial incentive to use the cards become one to spend more than you otherwise would/should. But I find that between my doing our household grocery shopping, and generic shopping, and eating out and such on our days off work, and the occasional Internet online purchase, I'm pretty much covered for what I need.

One observation a la Google:

Are high yield checking accounts worth it?

The answer is – it depends. From a mathematical standpoint, yes, higher interest rates are good. But the added hassles may not be worth it on a time/maintenance level. I personally haven’t opened one because I am happy with my current bank and I can’t be bothered by making a minimum of 10 debit card transactions per month and making sure I swipe the card as a credit card. I don’t have the patience to keep track of how many transactions I have made, and I don’t want to get in the habit of running to the gas station or Wal-Mart to make a series of transactions at the end of the month to ensure I continue to meet the account requirements.

On the other hand, the interest rates are very nice and I certainly understand why many people are attracted to these accounts. It’s not really that much work to maintain compliance – it’s just more than I am willing to do on a regular basis.

[Lancelot]

Off topic, but I only carry my US ATM card in my wallet when I go to the ATM. As soon as I withdraw the funds, I return home and lock up the ATM card. Not always convenient but using cash is good for the budget

[jfchandler]

Actually, there's a different way of looking at this, particularly if you have a Thai spouse...

Since a lot of Thai women are more accustomed to paying/using in cash, that's their first inclination, especially if they're buying from small Thai shops/stands that don't take plastic.

Now that I mostly carry debit cards instead of cash, I find I'm saving money sometimes because I can honestly say to the wife, "Honey, sorry, no cash in my wallet today."

[Carmine6]

In the aftermath of this, I made other arrangements so that I never carry my wallet in any of my pants pockets anymore... I had a friend who showed me he had pants with zippered pockets... But I don't have any of those in my wardrobe, and don't plan to go looking for them. But so-called cargo pocket pants with button down pocket covers probably would be better than just open pockets, where I was carrying my wallet before.

..

One thing I do when traveling is carry a fat wallet filled with fake credit cards that come with credit card offers. If I rode mass transit at home, I'd do it here too. It gives a target for someone to go after. Otherwise they'll be looking for where the money and cards are.

I've never had it lifted, but someone almost got my pack of tissues once. I swung my arm back in time to catch someone going into that pocket. It was one of those fat tissue packs so must have seemed significant.