Finally Expecting After A Decade

[BuddhistDruid]

Hello everyone.

My Thai wife of more than 10 years and I are finally going to have a child. We've been trying forever. My wife was diagnosed with "unexplained infertility." We went through about 4 IUI procedures, 6 IVF retrievals, and multiple FET transfers. In addition, we tried just about every Buddhist ceremony known. I wore a belt with a little penis man around my waist during intercourse, we ate gold leaf to expel the demons preventing conception, made donations to orphanages and prayed at the feet of my baby nephew to grant us a child.

In the end, we harvested my wife's eggs, my sperm and implanted the blastocyst in my wife's younger brother's wife. My wife and I are legally married. Her younger brother and sister in law are married Issan style, i.e. not registered.

I would like to know if anyone has experience in a case like this? Because the SIL is not legally married, I can appear as the legal father on the birth certificate. The SIL must be listed as the mother, because prebirth orders are not legally allowed here in Thailand. That means my wife, who is the child's genetic mother, must now adopt her own son.

First question: How long will this procedure take? My wife is Thai and the child will be Thai. She will have full cooperation from me (the father) and from the SIL (the mother). Are there going to be any complications here? Can it be completed within 3 months? Does anyone know if there are any fees involved?

Second question: how do I go about claiming the Social Security benefit in this case? How much is the current benefit? I understand my child must be legalized because I am not married to the birth mother. I have also read on this site that if I am listed as the presenter of the child as well as the father of the child then I should be the legal father. However, the Soical Security office does not seem to agree. According to this page [ www.sso.go.th/wpr/eng/child.html ] about the child allowance, they list only 3 ways:

• To proceed with registration of marriage with the child's mother
  
• To register the legitimization of the child
  
• To file a petition with Court for a court order that the child is the insured's child.
  

Notice there is no option listed for "show birth certificate with your name listed twice". Is this really a valid way to legalize the child's birth? Can anyone point me to a source where this is clearly spelled out as being a legitimate way? Will the SSO accept this argument? Has anyone else ever tried?

Obviously I can't marry the SIL as I am already married. I doubt I'll be able to convince any ampur to do the procedure when the child is only an infant, so if they don't accept the "list twice" argument, I'll need to legitimize via the court. Question here, where is the court in Bangkok, how do I do it, how long does this take, and how much does it cost?

Are there any other complications I'm going to run into using a surrogate as the mother that I haven't thought of? Does anyone know anybody who has ever done this that would be willing to talk with me about their experiences?

I hate to bring up the subject of money, but the fact is that my wife and I have spent almost 2 million baht over the course of the last decade in various procedures, and unfortunately we have absolutely no savings. Are there any tips anyone has for how to prepare for a baby on the cheap in Bangkok? We're living month to month right now as it is. Have to pay the SIL too. I simply can't afford to go drop 6000 baht at Central for a car seat and 10,000 baht for a crib. Anybody know a place that sells second hand baby items?

The little ทาก (SIL's term for him) isn't due until end of June, but after waiting so long it is hard not to get excited. My wife has even violated the Thai taboo of not buying anything for the baby until after it is born. Any general advice from the from the forum on what to do between now and then?

[MikeyIdea]

First of all, Congratulations with a very big capital C You have an absolutely wonderful time ahead of you (after the first 6 months or so). Also warming to hear about family members in the extended family supporting each other to that extent.

I have no experience myself in this case, but from what I know and have heard of when it comes to Thai law… there are no short cuts that I can think of unfortunately. To be confirmed with a lawyer specialising in family law and has done a couple of adoption cases preferably. The good thing in your case is that a Thai Thai lawyer will do fine, no need to pay extra for an English speaking one. Some reading first: google for this exact phrase "TCCC-book5.pdf" and you will find a translation of Book 5 that contains a few sections about adoption law (chapter 4) and guardianship (chapter 3) too, very far from complete though. The complete Thai version can be found under this link http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Family-Law-t313877.html Good and difficult reading for your wife and you. This article is for westerners who want to adopt but it isn't too bad, quite a few things should still be applicable I would think: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/family/chi...n/adoption.html

Legitimization

The mothers adoption and you legitimization are 2 separate things legally and best not complicate things. I assume (without having asked a lawyer) that it is better for you to legitimize the child first. I don't think that your name twice will work and your only way to legitimize the child should be to take the case to juvenile court. It is NOT difficult at all if both parties agree and disappointingly, you won't even see a judge. Waiting time to go up in Juvenile court a month or so ago was 2 months. There is a 30 day wait period so you should be able to get legitimization done in 4 months or so. Don't pay a lot of extra money to get an English speaking lawyer for this. I do think that you should make sure that your legitimization is properly updated in the computers at the amphur and you should request a por kor 11 form from the amphur (stating that you have shared custody of the child) before you and your wife proceed with the adoption. Again, this needs to be confirmed with a lawyer but I just think that it should simplify things if the husband of the person adopting is already the legal father of the child. But then maybe not… The link to the courts of Thailand web page is http://www.coj.go.th/coj2008/index.php (only Thai). Cost: An expensive and very good lawyer I know who only works with westerners charge 60,000 bath for it, I would expect that it should be possible to find an only Thai speaking lawyer who is willing to do it for 20 to 30,000 bath. Have the wife calling Thai Thai lawyers. If you wait until the child is 7 years old, then you and the mother should be able to do it yourselves at the amphur for a few of hundred bath. As far as I have heard (from lawyers) juvenile court requires a lawyer, do check that by getting your wife to call there, she may very well have to go there and ask

Adoption

I have no idea about cost and time but cannot see that it can be done in only 3 months, adoption is a long process everywhere in the world, probably the same in Thailand. Again my recommendation is go for Thai Thai lawyer, there are no complications like taking the child out of the country or anything, just a Thai mother who wishes to adopt the child of her sister-in-law and everybody agree

Social Benefits

That can't be much, I remember checking 3 years ago and I didn't even bother to do it. I only skimmed through the link you posted but I understood it as 350 bath per month – 4,200 bath per year and only for parents who contribute to the system (i.e., pay tax). I deduct my child when I do my tax returns and I get a 4 to 5,000 bath cheque mailed to me every year, (I pay approx. 280,000 bath tax per year), I think I get the money back because of tax reduction but I am not sure. The link says that the benefit does not apply for adopted child, which surprise me;

Terms and Conditions of the Child to Entitle to the Child Benefit:

The child assistance benefit for legitimate child aged not more than 6 years old shall be limited to not more than 2 children for the entitlement; (the said legitimate child shall exclude an adopted child or the child being adopted by other person)

Baby Stuff?

The best advice I possibly can give regarding expensive baby stuff: You won't be a better father or mother if you have it.

Crib for 10,000 bath? Car seat for 6,000? You are pulling my leg, right? Your child will be the happiest and best cared for child in the world if you do all you can with whatever you have. We bought a crib, Idea (my daughter) used it twice. Her stupid cow of a grand mother couldn't stand that she was crying when she was one week old… and insisted that the child was better off being carried around or in a home made hammock made out of cloth and a piece of rope tied to the kitchen table leg on one side and can't remember what it was on the other side, costing a total of 50 bath. Idea never sat in the car seat I bought for her… Gave it all away some time ago unfortunately.

You need so little to be a very good father and mother BuddhistDruid, just give from the heart

Michael

Edited February 8, 2010 by MikeyIdea