Red Shirt leaders pledge non-violent campaign

[jayboy]

You're missing my point. The analogy I was saying was that Thaksin abused his power to give Shin Corp an unfair advantage but Shin Corp still couldn't outperform the market by much. Market performance has nothing to do with abuse of power as the court rightly pointed out.

If that's what you're saying I agree!

Did the court make the point you mention in your final sentence? I must have missed it.

Edited February 27, 2010 by jayboy

[ballpoint]

Er, not really.The court judgement yesterday clearly implied that the wealth Thaksin made before assuming power was made legally.We are talking here about the period after he assumed power so your analogy is nonsense.

The assets court had no jurisdiction to rule over how he acquired the money he had prior to entering politics. Its verdict was on how much it thought he had gained while in power. It calculated that amount and will "return" the rest. No implication as to whether that original money was made honestly or not can be made from that decision.

[Moonrakers]

You're missing my point. The analogy I was saying was that Thaksin abused his power to give Shin Corp an unfair advantage but Shin Corp still couldn't outperform the market by much. Market performance has nothing to do with abuse of power as the court rightly pointed out.

If that's what you're saying I agree!

Did the court make the point you mention in your final sentence? I must have missed it.

Why would they. He was on trial for abuse of power, not for how good a business man he was.

[rixalex]

So assuming this data is correct Siam Cement gained 680% during the period in question while Shin Corp gained 5%. Draw your own conclusions.

Why not tell us yours? You spent enough time setting the scene before magically coming up with the answer to your own question.

[jayboy]

So assuming this data is correct Siam Cement gained 680% during the period in question while Shin Corp gained 5%. Draw your own conclusions.

Why not tell us yours? You spent enough time setting the scene before magically coming up with the answer to your own question.

My conclusion is that Thaksin's abuse of power was not reflected in financial terms as far as his listed companies were concerned during his period in office.However his chicanery and dishonesty was manifest in several other ways, notably by changing the rules of business in a way that benefited his own position.As the more seasoned of us know, Thai tycoons tend not to show their wealth through listed vehicles, but I have no doubt that there were many other ways that Thaksin operated unfairly and rigged the system.I tend to have some sympathy with the argument made by ballpoint, specifically that in the more or less transparent situation of listed companies Thaksin wasn't anything special.

What Thaksin does have - and this is quite separate from the current discussion, is a talent for networking and deal making.He has made some very high risk investments in Africa and PNG, but with that goes the prospect of a very high return.His Man City adventure was far from being a financial disaster.With the capital available to him and his Middle East financial supporters I shouldn't be surprised if he recoups a large proportion of the confiscated assets in a relatively short time frame.

[Insight]

Go on reds, give them hel_l!

You dont live in Thailand, right?

I used to think you were ok, Brit, but making statements like this!!!!!!

At best its ignorant and insensitive.

Why such a long standing member should suddenly resort to trolling after all this time, as brit has done, i don't know. It's weird. Sorry to see it happen. Or maybe he's been like it all along and i've just not noticed.

Trolling or not, Brit has always been a Thaksin supporter AFAIR.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, as non-violent as BOMBS. Don't believe them. They are really desperate now. Martial law at the very least is probably coming soon.

[ovenman]

Go on reds, give them hel_l!

You dont live in Thailand, right?

I used to think you were ok, Brit, but making statements like this!!!!!!

At best its ignorant and insensitive.

Why such a long standing member should suddenly resort to trolling after all this time, as brit has done, i don't know. It's weird. Sorry to see it happen. Or maybe he's been like it all along and i've just not noticed.

Trolling or not, Brit has always been a Thaksin supporter AFAIR.

Was that AFAIR or afar?

[Insight]

What Thaksin does have - and this is quite separate from the current discussion, is a talent for networking and deal making.He has made some very high risk investments in Africa and PNG, but with that goes the prospect of a very high return.His Man City adventure was far from being a financial disaster.With the capital available to him and his Middle East financial supporters I shouldn't be surprised if he recoups a large proportion of the confiscated assets in a relatively short time frame.

Time will tell, but the fact most "mature democracies" now won't go near him with a large pole will always cast a shadow over any deals he is responsible for, no matter how lucrative.

[Insight]

Was that AFAIR or afar?

At least it wasn't read as AFFAIR.

As Far As I Recall.

[SomTumTiger]

I see the grenade-tossing reds (last night at Bangkok Bank), forgot to read the "nonviolent" memo.... Perhaps it got lost in the mail.

[mca]

Link to the report where the reds admitted to the grenade attack please STT.

[brahmburgers]

Being an active Red Shirter, particularly at the leadership levels, appears to have become a job, with possibly lucrative income. Rather than a wage-like compensation, it appears more like commission-based system. In other words, when there are no activities, the money is ok - but when demonstrations or disturbances are on the agenda, the pay shoots up.

Go on reds, give them hel_l!

Who is 'them' (the Thai people?), and how do you define 'hel_l'?

In case you haven't noticed, the vast majority of Thais want to get on with their lives, and work towards security and prosperity. In essence, you're encouraging an ever-smaller rag-tag bunch of rowdies to continue to try to trip Thailand up.

^no this thread is about the corrupt yellows causing problems for thailand and its people. The reds are here for Thailand and its future. Anything less is disrespecting those honorable red souls who died fighting for democracy and freedom.

You're kidding, right? Your attempts at humor underwhelm us.

I see the grenade-tossing reds (last night at Bangkok Bank), forgot to read the "nonviolent" memo.... Perhaps it got lost in the mail.

The Reds are trying to set themselves up in no-lose scenarios. If they cause mayhem and it furthers their agenda (of hamstringing the Thai government and bringing back their hero/paymaster) then that's ok. If their members overstep their tactics by tossing grenades and burning buses, then they can simply blame it on opposition, and say others were dressing in red shirts and besmirching their good reputation.

Fact remains, the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive in their entire existence. They've made numerous threats of big rallies, but haven't had any in 11 months. They're extrememely jealous of the Yellows because, even though they try to copy the Yellow's tactics of large effective demonstrations, they can't manifest anything remotely as effective. Threats, threats, threats ....that's what the Big Bad Wolf did in fairytale land, and the Reds are about as effective as that wolf - who was all bluff.

[Cayenne]

What if the Reds succeeded and Thaksin comes back to power? You can see they have yet to propose any viable solution for reconciliation my fear is that when they are in power we'll start all over again or worse they'll hire thugs to intimidate any anti-government protests given that they have this us against them mentality.

[jayboy]

Fact remains, the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive in their entire existence. They've made numerous threats of big rallies, but haven't had any in 11 months. They're extrememely jealous of the Yellows because, even though they try to copy the Yellow's tactics of large effective demonstrations, they can't manifest anything remotely as effective. Threats, threats, threats ....that's what the Big Bad Wolf did in fairytale land, and the Reds are about as effective as that wolf - who was all bluff.

Really?

How about changing the complete landscape and agenda of Thai politics, ensuring that the Thai majority can no longer be ignored and patronised, prompting the current government to replicate and even enhance TRT "populist" policies.

[yoshiwara]

Fact remains, the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive in their entire existence. They've made numerous threats of big rallies, but haven't had any in 11 months. They're extrememely jealous of the Yellows because, even though they try to copy the Yellow's tactics of large effective demonstrations, they can't manifest anything remotely as effective. Threats, threats, threats ....that's what the Big Bad Wolf did in fairytale land, and the Reds are about as effective as that wolf - who was all bluff.

Really?

How about changing the complete landscape and agenda of Thai politics, ensuring that the Thai majority can no longer be ignored and patronised, prompting the current government to replicate and even enhance TRT "populist" policies.

Well that's just grandstanding blather. On the other hand I think we got a rather clear picture from the judgment Friday of Thaksin's 'landscape and agenda'. Thaksin's apologists, however, will continue to 'spin' one side of their face. Last Songkran we had the pleasure of seeing the other side of the Red face. Not very pretty.

Edited February 28, 2010 by yoshiwara

[jayboy]

Fact remains, the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive in their entire existence. They've made numerous threats of big rallies, but haven't had any in 11 months. They're extrememely jealous of the Yellows because, even though they try to copy the Yellow's tactics of large effective demonstrations, they can't manifest anything remotely as effective. Threats, threats, threats ....that's what the Big Bad Wolf did in fairytale land, and the Reds are about as effective as that wolf - who was all bluff.

Really?

How about changing the complete landscape and agenda of Thai politics, ensuring that the Thai majority can no longer be ignored and patronised, prompting the current government to replicate and even enhance TRT "populist" policies.

Well that's just grandstanding blather. On the other hand I think we got a rather clear picture from the judgment Friday of Thaksin's 'landscape and agenda'. Thaksin's apologists, however, will continue to 'spin' one side of their face. Last Songkran we had the pleasure of seeing the other side of the Red face. Not very pretty.

Grandstanding blather? Intelligent politicians like Abhisit and Korn have said much the same thing as I.It's not spin but some refuse to recognise the new reality.

[yoshiwara]

Fact remains, the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive in their entire existence. They've made numerous threats of big rallies, but haven't had any in 11 months. They're extrememely jealous of the Yellows because, even though they try to copy the Yellow's tactics of large effective demonstrations, they can't manifest anything remotely as effective. Threats, threats, threats ....that's what the Big Bad Wolf did in fairytale land, and the Reds are about as effective as that wolf - who was all bluff.

Really?

How about changing the complete landscape and agenda of Thai politics, ensuring that the Thai majority can no longer be ignored and patronised, prompting the current government to replicate and even enhance TRT "populist" policies.

Well that's just grandstanding blather. On the other hand I think we got a rather clear picture from the judgment Friday of Thaksin's 'landscape and agenda'. Thaksin's apologists, however, will continue to 'spin' one side of their face. Last Songkran we had the pleasure of seeing the other side of the Red face. Not very pretty.

Grandstanding blather? Intelligent politicians like Abhisit and Korn have said much the same thing as I.It's not spin but some refuse to recognise the new reality.

Terms like 'new reality' is 100% vacuous blather. Try again. Mind you some reds are not bothering with the spin and are rather getting to it with a few lobbed grenades.

Edited February 28, 2010 by yoshiwara

[jayboy]

Terms like 'new reality' is 100% vacuous blather. Try again. Mind you some reds are not bothering with the spin and are rather getting to it with a few lobbed grenades.

Vacuous blather.Grandstanding blather.Whatever next.Rather than wasting time thinking up insults why don't you address the substance and tell us why politicians like Abhisit and Korn are openly admitting that the rural majority had been badly neglected opening the way to opportunists like Thaksin, and that it's necessary to treat all Thais fairly not just the urban middle class.All governments in future have to deal with this new reality unless of course reactionary forces seek to thwart the Thai people again at elections.(through military interference, suborning the courts etc etc).

[yoshiwara]

Terms like 'new reality' is 100% vacuous blather. Try again. Mind you some reds are not bothering with the spin and are rather getting to it with a few lobbed grenades.

Vacuous blather.Grandstanding blather.Whatever next.Rather than wasting time thinking up insults why don't you address the substance and tell us why politicians like Abhisit and Korn are openly admitting that the rural majority had been badly neglected opening the way to opportunists like Thaksin, and that it's necessary to treat all Thais fairly not just the urban middle class.All governments in future have to deal with this new reality unless of course reactionary forces seek to thwart the Thai people again at elections.(through military interference, suborning the courts etc etc).

Some wishy-washy liberal apologists for Thaksin might like to use bad sociological terms like 'new reality' to lead us off into nonsense about 'fairness' etc. And now they would like us to think that Thaksin is the leader of the masses. More Peron than Che and more Nixon than Kennedy dear boy.

[mca]

Terms like 'new reality' is 100% vacuous blather. Try again. Mind you some reds are not bothering with the spin and are rather getting to it with a few lobbed grenades.

Wouldn't a better definition of " vacuous blather " being to accuse a group of lobbing grenades without any proof whatsoever?

[jdinasia]

Terms like 'new reality' is 100% vacuous blather. Try again. Mind you some reds are not bothering with the spin and are rather getting to it with a few lobbed grenades.

Vacuous blather.Grandstanding blather.Whatever next.Rather than wasting time thinking up insults why don't you address the substance and tell us why politicians like Abhisit and Korn are openly admitting that the rural majority had been badly neglected opening the way to opportunists like Thaksin, and that it's necessary to treat all Thais fairly not just the urban middle class.All governments in future have to deal with this new reality unless of course reactionary forces seek to thwart the Thai people again at elections.(through military interference, suborning the courts etc etc).

Pardon me? Who has been "suborning the courts" and which courts have been suborned?

If we are now talking about the urban middle-class (the tax payers of the country) and not the "elite", when did this switch happen?

[jayboy]

Pardon me? Who has been "suborning the courts" and which courts have been suborned?

If we are now talking about the urban middle-class (the tax payers of the country) and not the "elite", when did this switch happen?

Subject not really for discussion here but you can google "judicialisation of Thai politics" if you are really that ignorant.

Don't understand your second point.It's not an "either or" matter.

[jdinasia]

Pardon me? Who has been "suborning the courts" and which courts have been suborned?

If we are now talking about the urban middle-class (the tax payers of the country) and not the "elite", when did this switch happen?

Subject not really for discussion here but you can google "judicialisation of Thai politics" if you are really that ignorant.

Don't understand your second point.It's not an "either or" matter.

Ah -- so you are in fact commiting contempt of court by suggesting that courts have been suborned? or am I missing something?

Yes there is a difference between talking about urban middle-class in this "struggle" and the bkk elite which has been the rallying cry of farang pushing the red agenda (as well as that of the reds). Not even the reds have really spoken out against those that are the actual tax-paying members of Thai society.

[jayboy]

Ah -- so you are in fact commiting contempt of court by suggesting that courts have been suborned? or am I missing something?

I'm not committing anything of the sort, simply suggesting you research the topic mentioned.

Incidentally the mods are well aware of those who try to lure members into breaking forum rules.At least one member has been banned for it.

[jdinasia]

Ah -- so you are in fact commiting contempt of court by suggesting that courts have been suborned? or am I missing something?

I'm not committing anything of the sort, simply suggesting you research the topic mentioned.

Incidentally the mods are well aware of those who try to lure members into breaking forum rules.At least one member has been banned for it.

You, not me. made the statement about Thai courts. I know you know the rules and gave you an out. If you don't want to be asked specifics I would suggest that you NOT imply that the courts have been suborned.

[mca]

Let's face it there are a multitude of ways in being locked up in LOS for having an opinion so the political part of this forum will always be like an S Class Benz with a C class engine.

[jayboy]

Ah -- so you are in fact commiting contempt of court by suggesting that courts have been suborned? or am I missing something?

I'm not committing anything of the sort, simply suggesting you research the topic mentioned.

Incidentally the mods are well aware of those who try to lure members into breaking forum rules.At least one member has been banned for it.

You, not me. made the statement about Thai courts. I know you know the rules and gave you an out. If you don't want to be asked specifics I would suggest that you NOT imply that the courts have been suborned.

Sorry I'm not prepared to continue this discussion openly.I have registered a polite warning and that as far as I'm concerned is the end of the subject.

[CLOD]

I don't think the reds are daft enough these days to be drawn into violence on the streets by the elite.

Thats just the type of excuse the elites would want to cut the guns loose on the peasants, poor, and uneducated.

The elites want less red votes in the box, one way or another, then they dont have to coup.

Although it has always worked in the past for the elite, things have changed and the reds now have ways of expressing thailands elite ways to the world.

The thai elites ways are being exposed to the international community, for the first time, and more than a few eyebrows raised

No ,the way forward for the reds is to keep on harrassing and exposing this illigitimate military junta appointed government and judiciary to the democratic international community, democratic international court, and democratic human rights abuse court.

The reds now have ways to get the message out, and up to now are doing a grand job.

Abisit is already up before the human rights watch court, keep up the agitating, and the winkling out , and the exposing of the elite wrong doers, and make sure abisit stays there.Keep exposing the hypocrasy and double standards of the elites.

Abisit has to have elections sooner rather than later, then maybe the country can be returned to democracy, untill then keep exposing the elites, and keep abisit in the human rights watch court, where he belongs.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Ah -- so you are in fact commiting contempt of court by suggesting that courts have been suborned? or am I missing something?

I'm not committing anything of the sort, simply suggesting you research the topic mentioned.

Incidentally the mods are well aware of those who try to lure members into breaking forum rules.At least one member has been banned for it.

You, not me. made the statement about Thai courts. I know you know the rules and gave you an out. If you don't want to be asked specifics I would suggest that you NOT imply that the courts have been suborned.

Sorry I'm not prepared to continue this discussion openly.I have registered a polite warning and that as far as I'm concerned is the end of the subject.

Good response. It's too bad, but open discussion can only go so far and I think we've reached the limits.