Thai Lesbians Banned From Marriage On Valentines Day

[SeanMoran]

There is an increasing opinion among doctors that in many cases lesbianism, homosexuality & transgenderism are not a life-style choice, but are a piece of that individuals psychological & hormonal make-up dating back to their childhood & early teens. Obviously in todays world there are a minority who 'dabble' in various aspects of bi/homosexuality etc. as adults, but also for some people it is something that is deeply rooted in their psyche from a very early age.

To criminalise or discriminate against somebody because of the way their brains & physiology were from late childhood, be that gay or gender-dysphoric, is a crime no less than racism. Thailand has got a lot of bad press for treating gay & transgendered people as 3rd class citizens over the years, I think as an outsider it is correct to respect Thais conservative and traditional views on family etc. & be grateful to be here at all. Maybe one day they will get up to speed with the current medical opinion on gay & trans people being physiologically wired that way & it not being a trendy lifestyle choice for them.

It's because marriage is innately concerned with a man and a woman and family that they might have together. All well and good that scientific evidence might allow these sorts of excuses for someone who might want to be gay, and that's no problem. Each to their own, but that doesn't give someone any right to try to disgrace the essential importance of marriage as the conduit by which generations live on, because of a man and a woman who make that commitment for richer or poorer or better or worse and all that.

There are many buffalos in this world who I know from my visits to the paddocks and fields would like to be given the opportunity to go to medical school and qualify as doctors, but still, we refrain from allowing them the opportunity do whatever they feel like at the time and keep them in paddocks until they are ready for eating.

If all fish in this world were fairly given drivers' licences, we'd have to incorporate aqualungs into the standard equipment of motor vehicles so that the rest of us could compete with the gilled motorists on rainy days. It's a ludicrous idea. Kids are taught these fundamental basics in high school biology, but some people never learn.

[apetley]

There is an increasing opinion among doctors that in many cases lesbianism, homosexuality & transgenderism are not a life-style choice, but are a piece of that individuals psychological & hormonal make-up dating back to their childhood & early teens. Obviously in todays world there are a minority who 'dabble' in various aspects of bi/homosexuality etc. as adults, but also for some people it is something that is deeply rooted in their psyche from a very early age.

To criminalise or discriminate against somebody because of the way their brains & physiology were from late childhood, be that gay or gender-dysphoric, is a crime no less than racism. Thailand has got a lot of bad press for treating gay & transgendered people as 3rd class citizens over the years, I think as an outsider it is correct to respect Thais conservative and traditional views on family etc. & be grateful to be here at all. Maybe one day they will get up to speed with the current medical opinion on gay & trans people being physiologically wired that way & it not being a trendy lifestyle choice for them.

It's because marriage is innately concerned with a man and a woman and family that they might have together. All well and good that scientific evidence might allow these sorts of excuses for someone who might want to be gay, and that's no problem. Each to their own, but that doesn't give someone any right to try to disgrace the essential importance of marriage as the conduit by which generations live on, because of a man and a woman who make that commitment for richer or poorer or better or worse and all that.

There are many buffalos in this world who I know from my visits to the paddocks and fields would like to be given the opportunity to go to medical school and qualify as doctors, but still, we refrain from allowing them the opportunity do whatever they feel like at the time and keep them in paddocks until they are ready for eating.

If all fish in this world were fairly given drivers' licences, we'd have to incorporate aqualungs into the standard equipment of motor vehicles so that the rest of us could compete with the gilled motorists on rainy days. It's a ludicrous idea. Kids are taught these fundamental basics in high school biology, but some people never learn.

I thought I had found myself agreeing with one of SM's posts for an instant but whilst the first paragraph starts well the rest of the post degenerates true to form.

A high proportion of those 'straights' who get married 'disgrace the essential importance of marriage' by the relative ease at which they enter into divorce.

As for the buffalos(low uneducated?) they may want to be doctors but they will have to pass the medical exams like everyone else to practise so I don't understand your point.

And regards the fish, I they want to drive, sign up for drivers school, take the lessons and happen to pass the driving test who could deny them a license.

[SeanMoran]

I thought I had found myself agreeing with one of SM's posts for an instant but whilst the first paragraph starts well the rest of the post degenerates true to form.

A high proportion of those 'straights' who get married 'disgrace the essential importance of marriage' by the relative ease at which they enter into divorce.

As for the buffalos(low uneducated?) they may want to be doctors but they will have to pass the medical exams like everyone else to practise so I don't understand your point.

And regards the fish, I they want to drive, sign up for drivers school, take the lessons and happen to pass the driving test who could deny them a license.

I agree that today's version of marriage is in a rather pitiful state, and having separated in 1992 from my first and only marriage, I'm part of that cause, but let's not kick an institution of human society when it's down. There's a lot wrong with things today, but political stunts like this only make it worse.

Regarding the buffalo/fish analogies, I was just demonstrating the scope of this madness in a fairly brief and most certainly confusing manner for those readers who are not gifted with my same madness. Sorry, for I should have appealed more to the centre of the bell curve than such tangents, but I hope you got the point, that bovine farm animals studying medicine and aquatic lifeforms with fins and gills driving land vehicles is about the same as couples of the same gender getting married.

[TAWP]

It's because marriage is innately concerned with a man and a woman and family that they might have together.

No, it is not.

It is lies like that these that poison the debate and make any rational such a very hard thing to have.

The concept of one woman and one man as some form of God-given-institution carved in rock is nonsense and not even your own collected scriptures nor history supports you. The idea of the union having this specific shape is actually from very recent times.

[SeanMoran]

No, it is not.

It is lies like that these that poison the debate and make any rational such a very hard thing to have.

The concept of one woman and one man as some form of God-given-institution carved in rock is nonsense and not even your own collected scriptures nor history supports you. The idea of the union having this specific shape is actually from very recent times.

TAWP, if you want to have babies, if you want to have a family, as such, it naturally takes a man and a woman, and that is how this species has come so far. It's very basic biology, time-tested. It's also what keeps our genders together. Bacteria is asexual, if you get the gist.

[FatherF]

You do not have to be married to have babies.

You do not have to be married to have a family.

You do however have to be emotionally involved with your chosen partner to want to have either!

I think same sex unions are a right and proper expression of their feelings toward each other.

Whilst under current Thai law, they are un-able to "Marry" what is wrong with "Civil Union" as is allowed in many countries between consenting adults who wish to proclaim their true feelings for each other?

Is it because it does not fit in with your own standards?

You do not have to attend the ceremony if you so wish.

Maybe it's time to remove the blinkers and broaden your horizons?

FF

[SeanMoran]

You do not have to be married to have babies.

You do not have to be married to have a family.

You do however have to be emotionally involved with your chosen partner to want to have either!

I think same sex unions are a right and proper expression of their feelings toward each other.

Whilst under current Thai law, they are un-able to "Marry" what is wrong with "Civil Union" as is allowed in many countries between consenting adults who wish to proclaim their true feelings for each other?

Is it because it does not fit in with your own standards?

You do not have to attend the ceremony if you so wish.

Maybe it's time to remove the blinkers and broaden your horizons?

FF

I would like to agree here, that some kind of 'civil union' is most certainly fair, and the love of two people for each other is as wonderful thing, and love itself includes far more than just marital associations, for I love HM Bhumiphol, the King, because if the great works He has achieved in his reign, since befote I was even born, and he is a man, although a much greater man than myself, and I still love HM the King, platonkically.

It is a good thing when one man or woman loves another, no matter the gender, and in truth, it is a good thing when somebody might, (as I did for twelve years) even have a pet like a cat or a dog that they love with all their heart, as I loved Cheshire who once saved my life.

Different kinds of love, but we must not discount the purpose of marriage, which is a very specific type of love, between a man and a woman. There is a sexual (and hopefully romantic) connotation that cannot be matched by any other kind of love, and this is because it has an habit of making children, who rely on their parents very much for the first ten or twenty years of their lives. That is what marriage is about.

Lesbians from broken homes cannot be expected to understand the reasons I have mentioned above, but if they represent the majority of this human population, then God help us all.

[Thai at Heart]

You do not have to be married to have babies.

You do not have to be married to have a family.

You do however have to be emotionally involved with your chosen partner to want to have either!

I think same sex unions are a right and proper expression of their feelings toward each other.

Whilst under current Thai law, they are un-able to "Marry" what is wrong with "Civil Union" as is allowed in many countries between consenting adults who wish to proclaim their true feelings for each other?

Is it because it does not fit in with your own standards?

You do not have to attend the ceremony if you so wish.

Maybe it's time to remove the blinkers and broaden your horizons?

FF

Absolutely agree.

Complete difference between the legal/civil legal recognition between 2 people (be them man and woman, man to man, woman to woman) or married. Oddly, Thailand for such a religious place, doesn't really have an equivalent of a church marriage. No one goes to the temple to get married in the eyes of Buddha so to say. Every marriage in Thailand is a civil issue.

Now the debate is whether every match should have the similar legal value. I don't suppose that same sex marriages want tax deductions for kids, but then of course they can adopt. People argue that allowing same sex marriage in some way encourages homosexuality. If you see the torment that people go through to decide to tell the world they are gay, I would suggest that allowing them to enter a legal connection isn't really a significant issue.

I have close family who is gay and she has married. I wouldn't expect that she should not be legally protected and granted the same rights as any spouse.

Getting married per se, has two tenets, one legal and one religious. I don't see why a government should give two hoots about who wants to enter a legal relationship, but any religion should be free to make it's rules to suit itself. If your church won't recognise your marriage because of your sexuality, I suggest you change religion before you change your sexuality. I don't suppose that making marriage in Thailand would unleash an avalanche of homosexuality, that happened long ago it would appear. Maybe the government should ban the beach, because it appears that the sea air turns Thai people gay.

[Sisaketmike]

It's because women cannot be considered head of household. Two ladies married would only cause think too much.

Sorry, but what’s so bad if two girls want to stay together, including any social benefits? Married to a Thai man can be hel_l on earth, living together with his second wife. I guess lots of us came to this country because it’s so different to others…………………

[SeanMoran]

I guess lots of us came to this country because it's so different to others…………………

Thailand is a nation of freedom, where free people have the freedom to live their lives as they might choose, as long as we don't mess up the freedom of other people to also live their lives the way they choose too. It's okay if a couple of women or a couple of men want to spend the rest of their current lives together as they have the freedom to choose to do, but if they try to inflict their own beliefs on the rest of us, who also maintain that same right to get married in the usual way as we have the right to impress a lady who might ever make her mind up to choose to do so, then they can expect the same retribution in return.

Live and let live.

Marriage in the true sense requires two genders for good reason. Don't phuck around with the lives of normal people and the world is your oyster - have a fun time.

Edited February 15, 2010 by SeanMoran

[elkangorito]

To me, marriage is an otherwise ostentatious affair that only serves to change some monetary conditions.

If you love somebody, get on with that job. If you want to celebrate, have a whacking great party.

"The State", any religion or belief will not prevent me from being with my chosen partner.

[Bagwan]

BTW An Amphur open for business on a Sunday? Really?

They are on valentine's day. It's their busiest day of the year.

Thank you. Now I know. I have filed it away in a hidden recess of my grey matter where I hold all other little known and probably inconsequential information.

[SeanMoran]

BTW An Amphur open for business on a Sunday? Really?

They are on valentine's day. It's their busiest day of the year.

Thank you. Now I know. I have filed it away in a hidden recess of my grey matter where I hold all other little known and probably inconsequential information.

Valentine's Day 2554 (2011) is what then? Saturday or a Friday or a Tuesday or Thursday or Monday or Wednesday or a Sunday?

[mpetersen]

Oh y goodness gracious! Let this be a lesson to all of us that we must obey the law, and wear a condom, even on the ubiquitos american Valentine's Day!

It's the law to wear a condom in Thailand???

[SeanMoran]

Oh y goodness gracious! Let this be a lesson to all of us that we must obey the law, and wear a condom, even on the ubiquitos american Valentine's Day!

It's the law to wear a condom in Thailand???

Only for lesbians who want to get legally married and not have babies.

[mpetersen]

I thought I had found myself agreeing with one of SM's posts for an instant but whilst the first paragraph starts well the rest of the post degenerates true to form.

A high proportion of those 'straights' who get married 'disgrace the essential importance of marriage' by the relative ease at which they enter into divorce.

As for the buffalos(low uneducated?) they may want to be doctors but they will have to pass the medical exams like everyone else to practise so I don't understand your point.

And regards the fish, I they want to drive, sign up for drivers school, take the lessons and happen to pass the driving test who could deny them a license.

I agree that today's version of marriage is in a rather pitiful state, and having separated in 1992 from my first and only marriage, I'm part of that cause, but let's not kick an institution of human society when it's down. There's a lot wrong with things today, but political stunts like this only make it worse.

Regarding the buffalo/fish analogies, I was just demonstrating the scope of this madness in a fairly brief and most certainly confusing manner for those readers who are not gifted with my same madness. Sorry, for I should have appealed more to the centre of the bell curve than such tangents, but I hope you got the point, that bovine farm animals studying medicine and aquatic lifeforms with fins and gills driving land vehicles is about the same as couples of the same gender getting married.

My first wife was/is a buffalo, then I married a cold fish. Nothing wrong with it, and I was issued a perfectly legal marriage certificate, and had to make perfectly legal support payments after the fact....

[Bagwan]

Their rights aside - everyone should have the right to register as an 'item' to one or how many they want - they knew they would be turned down and this was indeed a PR stunt.

A cause to fight but the thread title wording is so misleading it is still making me cringe.

Once there was a silly old ram

Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam

No one could make that ram, scram

He kept buttin' that dam

but he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes

He's got high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time you're feelin' bad

'stead of feelin' sad

Just remember that ram

Oops there goes a billion kilowatt dam

Remember the suffragettes? Emily Davison involved herself in a PR stunt - but that sad story made people think and the ladies won game, set and match - and the world is a better place for it. Keep at it you deviant (from the accepted norm) ladies. More strength to your arms.

Does anybody else think it's strange that katoeys are an accepted faction in society but not lesbians?

[SeanMoran]

Does anybody else think it's strange that katoeys are an accepted faction in society but not lesbians?

I reckon it might be due to the fact that women in Thailand still remember how to behave like ladies, which does a lot of good to help us blokes remember how to at least try to behave like gentlemen.

It's all free to go with it or give up and bat for the other team if we think about it and decide, but as far as the charade goes, it's less effort as a sort of passive thing, for a girl to just be there and be a girl, while the boys have a lot more action to fail at, which might be why there are more katoeys who choose to plot a different course in life, as is their right.

[Bagwan]

Live and let live.

Marriage in the true sense requires two genders for good reason. Don't phuck around with the lives of normal people and the world is your oyster - have a fun time.

Marriage is an institution propounded by organised religion and their version requires two persons of opposing genders. But this is the 21st century and our knowledge of our Universe (and maybe others) makes nonsense of there being an Almighty. Organised religion is a controlling con trick and it is no coincidence that it still flourishes in poor, undeveloped countries, home to ignorant peoples. If two ladies, or men, want to enjoy the benefits of a recognised partnership, a condition that takes nothing away from conventional, traditional marriage according to one's religion, then why not? Why should anybody feel threatened by a recognised civil union of two souls? What inner fears does it unleash in those opposed to it? The world has moved on since Victorian times so you'll just have to deal with it.

How can anybody who comes to live in Thailand because they feel more 'free' justify wanting to place restrictions on others? I wonder just how many of those opposed to a lesbian style marriage actually practice their professed religion and attend church on a regular basis.

[apetley]

Thailand is a nation of freedom, where free people have the freedom to live their lives as they might choose, as long as we don't mess up the freedom of other people to also live their lives the way they choose too. It's okay if a couple of women or a couple of men want to spend the rest of their current lives together as they have the freedom to choose to do, but if they try to inflict their own beliefs on the rest of us, who also maintain that same right to get married in the usual way as we have the right to impress a lady who might ever make her mind up to choose to do so, then they can expect the same retribution in return.

Live and let live.

Marriage in the true sense requires two genders for good reason. Don't phuck around with the lives of normal people and the world is your oyster - have a fun time.

Is it not you who is trying to inflict their belief on others?

What is so wrong with same sex couples calling their partnership a marriage?

Marriage is not purely for the procreation of the species.

If you really believe in 'Live and let live' mellow out a little and let same sex partners enjoy calling their own civil union whatever they want.

[FatherF]

Hear Hear!

FF

[granuaile]

Thank you to those who have spoken up for this brave couple.

I fail to see the bravery, it was just a cheap and pointless publicity stunt as gay marriage is not allowed in Thailand or many other countries, even in California. I think people get sick of hearing about the 'rights' of minorities and this sort of posturing. I doubt if gay marriage will ever be allowed in Thailand. Nobody is saying they should be discriminated against, but most people feel gay marriage is not acceptable, tough!

It was not pointless, only through action can anything really change. Denying someone a right is discrimination no matter what and if that right is not denied in the first place nobody would have to hear about ity. To those who would deny us basic rights, and we struggle for them anyway, I say tough too.

[davelec]

Thank you to those who have spoken up for this brave couple.

I fail to see the bravery, it was just a cheap and pointless publicity stunt as gay marriage is not allowed in Thailand or many other countries, even in California. I think people get sick of hearing about the 'rights' of minorities and this sort of posturing. I doubt if gay marriage will ever be allowed in Thailand. Nobody is saying they should be discriminated against, but most people feel gay marriage is not acceptable, tough!

It was not pointless, only through action can anything really change. Denying someone a right is discrimination no matter what and if that right is not denied in the first place nobody would have to hear about ity. To those who would deny us basic rights, and we struggle for them anyway, I say tough too.

But it's not their 'right' to demand whatever they think they are entitled to against the morality of religion and public opinion. Even California has changed it's mind on same sex marriage. They are not being discriminated against any more than i am by not having the 'right' to stay in Thailand on my own terms. Gays cannot marry in Thailand, probably never will, get over it.

[tooninthai]

Perhaps the frequency of Thai boys just taking their virginity and then dropping them for a newer model... especially when they get pregnant....turns many girls against the opposite sex. They are probably better treated by their own.

On that point, I know of a couple of separated/divorced women who have taken on female partners and have seen nothing wrong in doing so, especially as they feel less threatened and under less pressure. Seems it also helps to alleviate the sexual needs

These same women have said they would be happy to start again with a new man if the right one came along.

As for the topic, each to their own at the end of the day but TiT and they should have known the authorities would refuse them?

[cdnvic]

But it's not their 'right' to demand whatever they think they are entitled to against the morality of religion and public opinion. Even California has changed it's mind on same sex marriage. They are not being discriminated against any more than i am by not having the 'right' to stay in Thailand on my own terms. Gays cannot marry in Thailand, probably never will, get over it.

I always wonder if those who use morality and religion to back up their arguments live clean, moral lives according to the same religious views that they use to judge other people's whom they harbour a prejudice against?

[Jingthing]

Congratulations to the happy newlyweds! I do agree heterosexuals have destroyed the sanctity of marriage. I propose the death penalty for divorcing. Also, of course we need a required sterility test. Any women unable to breed or men with low sperm counts, no marriage license for you!

[jdinasia]

Thank you to those who have spoken up for this brave couple.

I fail to see the bravery, it was just a cheap and pointless publicity stunt as gay marriage is not allowed in Thailand or many other countries, even in California. I think people get sick of hearing about the 'rights' of minorities and this sort of posturing. I doubt if gay marriage will ever be allowed in Thailand. Nobody is saying they should be discriminated against, but most people feel gay marriage is not acceptable, tough!

Ah ... so you are saying that gay and lesbian couples should not be discriminated against, but should not be allowed to marry?

OK ... Let me explain this to you in very simple terms. Marraige is a civil institution particularly in Thailand at the government offices. Gays and lesbians are part of civil society. Marraige gives certain rights and exerts certain obligations on its participants. The first right it gives is that you are automatically next-of-kin to your spouse. This is a MAJOR right and to deny it to a committed couple based upon gender is discriminatory. You have the RIGHT to visit your next of kin in the hospital. Gays and lesbians have routinely been turned away by bigoted or greedy family members (birth family -- as obviously committed partners are a family in their own right even though the law does not recognize this).Next of kin status determines who can give consent in medical emergencies, since many gays and lesbians are estranged from their birth families this is a major issue in their personal rights to medical decisions. The partner will know the other partner's wishes on medical matters. Next-of-kin status also determines inheretance issues. In far too many cases gay or lesbian partners who have been in commited relationships for years have not only lost the love of their life but then to add to the sorrow have had the partner's family swoop in and steal everything that they worked together to build -- and steal it legally because of the discriminatory marraige policies in many places in the world today.

I could go on about taxes and insurance and custody etc etc etc ... but if you didn't get it just from the next-of-kin issue ... you just won't get it at all!

[jdinasia]

and please ... keep your religion out of my bedroom .. out of Thailand .... and out of the governments.

This is not a Christian country and Buddhism has nothing to say about homosexuality at all. (Then again neither did Christ) Marraige here is NOT a religious institution it is a secular/civil institution.

I do agree it was a publicity stunt ... but the publicity they were seeking was for a good cause ... equal protection under the law for all citizens.

[Jingthing]

The clerk dude was only doing his job. Its not his fault. Regarding the lesbians, is it inconceivable that some Thai people actually don't know it is illegal to register same sex marriages? Gay marriage is not a big political issue in Thailand. Maybe some Thais think it is legal.

[granuaile]

No, it is not.

It is lies like that these that poison the debate and make any rational such a very hard thing to have.

The concept of one woman and one man as some form of God-given-institution carved in rock is nonsense and not even your own collected scriptures nor history supports you. The idea of the union having this specific shape is actually from very recent times.

TAWP, if you want to have babies, if you want to have a family, as such, it naturally takes a man and a woman, and that is how this species has come so far. It's very basic biology, time-tested. It's also what keeps our genders together. Bacteria is asexual, if you get the gist.

I see, so then you agree that impotent and sterile heterosexuals should not be allowed to marry? Or if they are past an age where they can procreate they can not marry?