Investment – Fraud

[greendog]

I would like advice about an investment I made, or though I did. For many years I’ve known a Thai lady and her U.S. husband, in America. I knew her well enough that I thought of and trusted her like a sister. I retired and from my entire retirement savings, she talked me into going in with her and her brother in Thailand to be a one third owner in a business. There was no contract signed but I’ve got copies of my wire transfers and expected to do very well but now that I’m here, the brother says I own nothing. The Thai girl divorced her American husband, is working in a Thai restaurant in America and now is of no help. The brother speaks only a little English but neither he nor she now wants to communicate with me.

Could anyone tell me the best avenue to get my money back - if that is possibly? I’ve heard that a Thai usually wins in Thailand, despite the fact that my “Will” goes to a Thai orphanage and the brother has many unpaid creditors from an old business.

Questions: Can anyone personally recommend a lawyer for a situation like this? Does a falang have a chance here? I will email to see if a lawyer in the U.S. can go after the Thai girl there but would like help in finding a good referred lawyer here.

Thanks for any help you can give.

[churchill]

Even though you have no contract - Do you have any proof of what the money should have been used for . Is the business still running and in profit ?

I would have thought if you could satisfy a court in Thailand that you are the owner of 1/3rd of a business you would be granted 1/3rd of the proceeds on sale .

There are international lawyers firms in Bangkok who could advise you .

[greendog]

Even though you have no contract - Do you have any proof of what the money should have been used for . Is the business still running and in profit ?

I would have thought if you could satisfy a court in Thailand that you are the owner of 1/3rd of a business you would be granted 1/3rd of the proceeds on sale .

There are international lawyers firms in Bangkok who could advise you .

No proof of anything. The money was used to buy property. The Thai man mortgaged to build a 40 unit apartment bldg.

[greendog]

Even though you have no contract - Do you have any proof of what the money should have been used for . Is the business still running and in profit ?

I would have thought if you could satisfy a court in Thailand that you are the owner of 1/3rd of a business you would be granted 1/3rd of the proceeds on sale .

There are international lawyers firms in Bangkok who could advise you .

No proof of anything. The money was used to buy property. The Thai man mortgaged to build a 40 unit apartment bldg.

Even though you have no contract - Do you have any proof of what the money should have been used for.

I’ve got no proof of anything, only copies of wire transfers. My money was used to buy property in a prime BKK location. The Thai brother mortgaged his business to build a 40 unit apartment bldg.

Is the business still running and in profit?

It was completed in Nov. 2009 and now bringing in an income.

I would have thought if you could satisfy a court in Thailand that you are the owner of 1/3rd of a business you would be granted 1/3rd of the proceeds on sale.

The brother never wants to sell. He wants to mortgage that apt. to build another apt. bldg. so all of the income will make him wealthy.

There are international lawyers firms in Bangkok who could advise you.

I’m hoping for a personal recommendation for a lawyer here. A lawyer in the U.S. may also be able to help me. I believe he is an international lawyer also.

Because of my questions to the Sister, the brother then gave me back close to one fifth of the amount I sent in Nov. 2009 but doesn’t want to commit to any more payments.

[GungaDin]

Go after the sister in the US with both barrels.

Use her as a lever on the brother.

Was your money sent direct to Thailand or to the sister in the US?

The fact that the bro returned some cash to you, it's a crack opening up, you must force the crack open even wider.

Thai courts can give you the run-around for up to 10 years and the bro probably knows that.

Sorry to read of your losses.

[greendog]

This evening I will email a great lawyer that I know in the U.S. to go after the sister.

The money was sent directly to Thailand but one of my money wire copies has her name on it because she transfered some money to my account to send with mine, to save transfer fees for her.

The business of the brother was closed several years ago because of many large debts that could not be paid. Many creditors lost money. The same business is now running (and doing great) but with a different name so I think that's why he doesn't want to go to court.

Thanks for all of your advice and input.

[lopburi3]

As there seems to be no paperwork, no company, and this appears to have been an illegal investment in land by a foreigner using the brother as proxy am not so sure you will do more than lose more money with a lawyer. It appears anything you say could put you in legal jeopardy.

[churchill]

As there seems to be no paperwork, no company, and this appears to have been an illegal investment in land by a foreigner using the brother as proxy am not so sure you will do more than lose more money with a lawyer. It appears anything you say could put you in legal jeopardy.

He made a business loan , and I would have thought , even though the business involved purchase of land and building he was a 30% shareholder and not buying in his name - So if he can come up with some evidence should be prepaid with any profits ?

[richardt1808]

I sympathise with your loss. But...

There is an old saying concerning a fool and his money and it probably applies here. Why anyone would want to invest a substantial amount of money in anything, without having some kind of legal agreement, is beyond me. There are not many places in the world where one can do business on a handshake; and even in the best of circumstances, we shouldn't be doing so unless we can afford to lose it.

Since there is no contract, I doubt that a lawyer is going to be of any help. Probably, your best bet is to approach the police here in Thailand and offer a large amount under the table. Depending on who you talk to, and whether the other party has the cash to come up with a counter-offer, you may be able to get something back. But, to say the least, your chances are slim... and you will probably be joining an ever-growing list of poor foreigners who came off on the wrong side of a bad deal here.

Edited February 15, 2010 by richardt1808

[GungaDin]

This evening I will email a great lawyer that I know in the U.S. to go after the sister.

You need a ruthless lawyer, is he ruthless or a nice guy?

[Wrong Turn]

Green (OP),

May I ask, how much money we're talking about here?

You don't have to answer.

[greendog]

This evening I will email a great lawyer that I know in the U.S. to go after the sister.

You need a ruthless lawyer, is he ruthless or a nice guy?

The lawyer is exceptioanlly smart and capable and doesn't waste time messing around. He does what can be done by the law. For here I'll take time in deciding but ask the lawyer in the U.S. if he could recommend one here.

[greendog]

Green (OP),

May I ask, how much money we're talking about here?

You don't have to answer.

The amount totals a little over five and one half million Baht. The brother did send back to me one and one half million Baht.

[greendog]

I sympathise with your loss. But...

There is an old saying concerning a fool and his money and it probably applies here. Why anyone would want to invest a substantial amount of money in anything, without having some kind of legal agreement, is beyond me. There are not many places in the world where one can do business on a handshake; and even in the best of circumstances, we shouldn't be doing so unless we can afford to lose it.

Since there is no contract, I doubt that a lawyer is going to be of any help. Probably, your best bet is to approach the police here in Thailand and offer a large amount under the table. Depending on who you talk to, and whether the other party has the cash to come up with a counter-offer, you may be able to get something back. But, to say the least, your chances are slim... and you will probably be joining an ever-growing list of poor foreigners who came off on the wrong side of a bad deal here.

Someone else told me about paying the police. From what they have done and their lies, I could feel good about that but I've got to try all legal avenues first.

[churchill]

I sympathise with your loss. But...

There is an old saying concerning a fool and his money and it probably applies here. Why anyone would want to invest a substantial amount of money in anything, without having some kind of legal agreement, is beyond me. There are not many places in the world where one can do business on a handshake; and even in the best of circumstances, we shouldn't be doing so unless we can afford to lose it.

Since there is no contract, I doubt that a lawyer is going to be of any help. Probably, your best bet is to approach the police here in Thailand and offer a large amount under the table. Depending on who you talk to, and whether the other party has the cash to come up with a counter-offer, you may be able to get something back. But, to say the least, your chances are slim... and you will probably be joining an ever-growing list of poor foreigners who came off on the wrong side of a bad deal here.

Someone else told me about paying the police. From what they have done and their lies, I could feel good about that but I've got to try all legal avenues first.

Not in this situation . If courts either in the US or Thailand don't work forget it /

[greendog]

I sympathise with your loss. But...

There is an old saying concerning a fool and his money and it probably applies here. Why anyone would want to invest a substantial amount of money in anything, without having some kind of legal agreement, is beyond me. There are not many places in the world where one can do business on a handshake; and even in the best of circumstances, we shouldn't be doing so unless we can afford to lose it.

Since there is no contract, I doubt that a lawyer is going to be of any help. Probably, your best bet is to approach the police here in Thailand and offer a large amount under the table. Depending on who you talk to, and whether the other party has the cash to come up with a counter-offer, you may be able to get something back. But, to say the least, your chances are slim... and you will probably be joining an ever-growing list of poor foreigners who came off on the wrong side of a bad deal here.

Someone else told me about paying the police. From what they have done and their lies, I could feel good about that but I've got to try all legal avenues first.

Not in this situation . If courts either in the US or Thailand don't work forget it /

That is something that I would be very much afraid to do and would never have thought of before.

But a relative of a friend’s Thai wife told her to contact him as a last resort. That was a real surprise for me to hear that. He worked as a police man for many years but has now got a much higher position.

For me to do that, I believe Murphy’s Law would apply and I would not only be out of money but then also in deep DoDo.

[Taggart]

<<<I retired and from my entire retirement savings, she talked me into going in with her and her brother in Thailand to be a one third owner in a business.

The amount totals a little over five and one half million Baht. The brother did send back to me one and one half million Baht.

I will email to see if a lawyer in the U.S. can go after the Thai girl there but would like help in finding a good referred lawyer here.>>>

-------------------------------------------------

You've left me wondering where the money is coming from in order to hire lawyers on both sides of the ocean, the U.S. and Thailand, for court cases that could drag on for years?

[Wrong Turn]

<<<I retired and from my entire retirement savings, she talked me into going in with her and her brother in Thailand to be a one third owner in a business.

The amount totals a little over five and one half million Baht. The brother did send back to me one and one half million Baht.

I will email to see if a lawyer in the U.S. can go after the Thai girl there but would like help in finding a good referred lawyer here.>>>

-------------------------------------------------

You've left me wondering where the money is coming from in order to hire lawyers on both sides of the ocean, the U.S. and Thailand, for court cases that could drag on for years?

But what are the chances of him getting his money back?

The business (building) is making money.

But if they don't have much money, even if there is a legal award, how long would it take? How many years?

Nonetheless, worth trying. Hiring 2 lawyers.

Keep us posted Green.

[torrenova]

My experience of Thai apartment blocks is that they do not produce a very good yield and even when full produce perhaps only 7% to 10%. If the OPs money has been used to fund the purchase, then getting it back from income is going to take a very long time. There would need to be refinancing or a sale, neither of which is going to be easy to force upon the owner.

[Taggart]

<<<I retired and from my entire retirement savings, she talked me into going in with her and her brother in Thailand to be a one third owner in a business.

The amount totals a little over five and one half million Baht. The brother did send back to me one and one half million Baht.

I will email to see if a lawyer in the U.S. can go after the Thai girl there but would like help in finding a good referred lawyer here.>>>

-------------------------------------------------

You've left me wondering where the money is coming from in order to hire lawyers on both sides of the ocean, the U.S. and Thailand, for court cases that could drag on for years?

But what are the chances of him getting his money back?

The business (building) is making money.

But if they don't have much money, even if there is a legal award, how long would it take? How many years?

Nonetheless, worth trying. Hiring 2 lawyers.

Keep us posted Green.

You have to be realistic. If I saw any sign of the op having deep pockets, I would say go ahead and fight the court cases, but so far I haven't seen any indication of that. In the meantime, he still has his own normal day to day living expenses to contend with.

[12DrinkMore]

Bit late in the day, but never invest in Thailand more than you can afford to lose.

IMO based on what you have said your chance of getting any more money back is zero.

Once you have a lawyer working for you (or more likely for himself ) then you be simply throwing more money away.

Walk away, put it behind you and learn the lesson, as have so many, including myself.

Edited February 15, 2010 by 12DrinkMore

[greendog]

<<<I retired and from my entire retirement savings, she talked me into going in with her and her brother in Thailand to be a one third owner in a business.

The amount totals a little over five and one half million Baht. The brother did send back to me one and one half million Baht.

I will email to see if a lawyer in the U.S. can go after the Thai girl there but would like help in finding a good referred lawyer here.>>>

-------------------------------------------------

You've left me wondering where the money is coming from in order to hire lawyers on both sides of the ocean, the U.S. and Thailand, for court cases that could drag on for years?

But what are the chances of him getting his money back?

The business (building) is making money.

But if they don't have much money, even if there is a legal award, how long would it take? How many years?

Nonetheless, worth trying. Hiring 2 lawyers.

Keep us posted Green.

He and his family have giant chicken farms all over Thailand and are all very well to do. They try to hide assets, like land, in different family members names but use them when needed for collateral to make loans. When loans are paid they put the land back in the family members names for business safety.

They own chicken farms, processing plants, trucking for the chickens and repair shops for the trucks. They could easily get collateral for a loan to pay me back.

[britmaveric]

No Contract and you gave someone that sort of dosh? Oh my I would have to say you are pretty much SOL.

[nakachalet]

hear ye, hear ye....

the honorable judge thaivisa is presiding....

calling plaintiff--greendog

how do you plea greendog....?

were you totally and absolutely smitten by the lady? by her husband? by the prospect of owning a business in thailand?

when we talk about our life savings.... we talk about 6, 7 or 8 digit numero.... in usd/euro....

and you just wired it away just like that.... without any recourse of any sort.... ?

were you trying your very best to impress someone at the time.... perhaps?

i don't know whether i should laugh or cry for you.... or whether i should laugh and cry for you simutaneously....

at any rate, from my experience, if and when you decide to get tough with the group.... there are a few dozen former 'good men' in thailand.... and if your story is straight and upright.... several of these guys would be glad to help you to tell the brother to cough it up or else.... as you can see, i am almost beside myself now.... advocating possible violence.... IN ALL HONESTY, YOU REALLY SHOULD KICK YOURSELF HARD....

with all my sympathy, plaintiff greendog....

Edited February 15, 2010 by nakachalet

[Alter2]

No Contract and you gave someone that sort of dosh? Oh my I would have to say you are pretty much SOL.

Very sad to hear that this happened, but one must ask, just what you were thinking to give over that kind of money with nothing in writing?

[kaorop]

<br />

<<<I retired and from my entire retirement savings, she talked me into going in with her and her brother in Thailand to be a one third owner in a business.<br /><br />The amount totals a little over five and one half million Baht. The brother did send back to me one and one half million Baht.<br /><br />I will email to see if a lawyer in the U.S. can go after the Thai girl there but would like help in finding a good referred lawyer here.>>><br /><br />-------------------------------------------------<br /><br />You've left me wondering where the money is coming from in order to hire lawyers on both sides of the ocean, the U.S. and Thailand, for court cases that could drag on for years?

<br /><br />But what are the chances of him getting his money back?<br /><br />The business (building) is making money.<br /><br />But if they don't have much money, even if there is a legal award, how long would it take? How many years?<br /><br />Nonetheless, worth trying. Hiring 2 lawyers.<br /><br />Keep us posted Green.<br />

<br /><br />He and his family have giant chicken farms all over Thailand and are all very well to do. They try to hide assets, like land, in different family members names but use them when needed for collateral to make loans. When loans are paid they put the land back in the family members names for business safety.<br />They own chicken farms, processing plants, trucking for the chickens and repair shops for the trucks. They could easily get collateral for a loan to pay me back.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

If they are so rich why did you loan them money?

[GungaDin]

^^^^

his family have giant chicken farms all over Thailand and are all very well to do. They try to hide assets, like land, in different family members names but use them when needed for collateral to make loans. When loans are paid they put the land back in the family members names for business safety.They own chicken farms, processing plants, trucking for the chickens and repair shops for the trucks. They could easily get collateral for a loan to pay me back

That crossed my mind too, I think that maybe we are missing some parts of this story.

Greendog, I don't want to kick a guy when he's down on his "luck", I don't think you have spilled all the beans, yet.

[greendog]

^^^^

his family have giant chicken farms all over Thailand and are all very well to do. They try to hide assets, like land, in different family members names but use them when needed for collateral to make loans. When loans are paid they put the land back in the family members names for business safety.They own chicken farms, processing plants, trucking for the chickens and repair shops for the trucks. They could easily get collateral for a loan to pay me back

That crossed my mind too, I think that maybe we are missing some parts of this story.

Greendog, I don't want to kick a guy when he's down on his "luck", I don't think you have spilled all the beans, yet.

Something I didn’t know about is the different chicken farms which I believe are owned by a few family members. I believe that the brother that I sent the money to is managing the first big farm and trucking businesses which are in a company name that helps to support many family members. Now I believe that this brother is trying to “break out” with another business to bring income just for him. I believe he was going to give me some income from the apartments, when finished, but it would amount to less than one third of what I was told.