One Guy's Effort To Learn Thai In 14 Years

[mangkorn]

... "What dialect?" - you reply "Isaan (since you live in Khorat)" ...

If it may be of any interest, in Khorat most people speak Khorat, not Isaan. It's a different dialect (albeit with some Lao/Isaan overlap).

One friend of mine is fond of saying that she is trilingual: Thai, Khorat and Isaan.

In some discussions about language with other Khorat natives, it has been explained to me that Khorat dialect is essentially Central Thai in vocabulary, but the tones are usually distinct. That may be due to the cultural overlap with Lao (and perhaps even Khmer). Perhaps Rikker or one of the other linguists here could explain some of the vicissitudes of ภาษาโคราช ?

[boatguy]

Just read this whole subject thread, and I will have to say I am a little discouraged. I've married a retired school teacher (Thai lady) who expects me to learn Thai...and in short order I get the impression. Its as if she thinks I will be able to hold an intelligent conversation in Thai in short order

I'm 67, and have no great interest in 'going back to school' (so to speak) to learn a somewhat difficult language...particularly when I have SO MANY other interest in this world.

I would like to understand some of what is being said to me, and at least converse on the most basic level, but I've always had problems with repeating tones that I hear. This would seem to make my task very difficult. I bought the Rosetta Stone CD (at least I have it on a free trial basis), but this sounds as though it will not be too productive for me.

So for now I have subscribed to this forum conversation, and I'll keep track of new postings, both positively encouraging and negatively. Thanks, interesting thread.

[SoftWater]

@boatguy

Well, isn't it true that one man's hand is another man's fist? For myself (and I suspect many other members of this forum from my observations) would gladly wish our Thai better halves were as keen for us to learn the language as yours. It's far more common that Thai spouses show quite a lot of disinterest in their foreign partner learning the language for a variety of reasons, here's just a few that spring to mind from experience:

i. they don't want you to know what's really going on with the family / personal issues (not necessarily because they're trying to rip you off - though that could be one reason - but as often as not just so that they can keep their special place as being the arbiter between you and everyone else in the family)

ii. they don't want to be a 'walking dictionary' - i.e., they might like the idea of you learning at first, but soon get irritated by the extremely pedantic questions that learners ask which they are not trained to answer. This can undermine their self-esteem and make them reluctant to encourage to continue your studies.

iii. they have done it before, with their first 'farang love', only to find that once the fella learned how to spread his charm in Thai he soon upped stix and went off with another gal....

In any case, I guess what I'm trying to say is that while you may not appreciate the stress, at least be aware that there are many of us struggling learners that would wish our spouses had the same attitude as yours.

good luck with your studies, on a practical note, if you want somewhere to start, you could do worse than try here:

http://202.29.13.94/courseware/

[bkksteviejai]

Just read this whole subject thread, and I will have to say I am a little discouraged. I've married a retired school teacher (Thai lady) who expects me to learn Thai...and in short order I get the impression. Its as if she thinks I will be able to hold an intelligent conversation in Thai in short order

I'm 67, and have no great interest in 'going back to school' (so to speak) to learn a somewhat difficult language...particularly when I have SO MANY other interest in this world.

I would like to understand some of what is being said to me, and at least converse on the most basic level, but I've always had problems with repeating tones that I hear. This would seem to make my task very difficult. I bought the Rosetta Stone CD (at least I have it on a free trial basis), but this sounds as though it will not be too productive for me.

So for now I have subscribed to this forum conversation, and I'll keep track of new postings, both positively encouraging and negatively. Thanks, interesting thread.

Don't be discouraged!. It's good that your wife wants you to learn Thai, and as the previous poster mentioned, some are not that into the idea. I've been learning for about 4 years, pretty much since I got here. Some days it will feel like it's coming together a bit for me, a cab ride for instance, where I'll be able to make a bit of small talk with the driver and understand (or the general jist of it anyway) what he's saying to me, the next day another cab........blank look and polite smile. If I take the opportunity to converse with people, that good experience where I'm making myself understood (not that often!) gives me a big confidence boost, even a few simple sentences.

Good luck with it.

Edited October 10, 2010 by bkksteviejai

[SoftWater]

I 'read' Thai, make all the right sounds, can even write simple stuff but learning vocab is my main problem. I read a text and if I don't know a word I look it up and even write it down if I have a pen and paper.

Next day I come across the same word, I have to look it up again.

Takes me a long while for it to stick.

It's like names, I remember faces but it takes me ages to remember names.

Must be 'old timer's' disease.

Have you tried using ANKI? Its free, and a very powerful tool.

It needs a small investment of time to set up for what you want to learn, but after that, you're like 5 minutes a day and you'll remember all your vocab. Did I mention its free, oh yeah. It's here

[CaptHaddock]

 I feel sorry for those folks on here who have been unable to teach themselves Thai from books and tapes.  I have these observations:

1.  Why would you expect to be able to teach yourself a non-European language using books and tapes, particularly if, as I suspect, you have never learned any foreign language before?  How many people have you met in your life who have taught themselves their first foreign language from books?  I have never met anyone who did that.

2.  By contrast, it should be obvious that most of the people you have ever met who have learned a foreign language well did so in school or university, particularly if they are literate in that language.  The acquisition of a second language is well-understood by educators.  And, no, everyone does not have his own way to learn.  Those who were successful at it all did it more or less the same way: learning grammar, dialogues, drills, memorizing vocabulary, etc.  There are no shortcuts.

3.  If you have previously acquired a second language and if you are sufficiently motivated, you can teach yourself another language using books and tapes, provided that they are competently prepared.  That means that they are or could be used in a university course to teach the language.  From the description, this excludes the Rosetta Stone products and probably most of the amateur-prepared teaching materials with their promises of magic results.  These products remind me of advertisements you sometimes see for some completely dubious exercise product that is essentially a big rubber band.  But the guy demonstrating it in the ad is ripped like Mr. Universe.  Of course it it obvious that he didn't develop his own musculature with the rubber thingy--he worked out with weights for countless hours in a gym.

4.  If you want to learn Thai, take a quality course.  Either at a university or followig a university-style approach, i.e. learn the alphabet early, drill all aspects of the language, speech, reading, writing, listening, dialoges, etc.  If you don't live near such a course relocate for six months or a year.  

If you can't manage such a commitment then give it up and at least spare yourself the frustration of misapplied effort.

It's regrettable that no one pointed out to the OP the right way to become fluent in Thai, especially since he was motivated and had some discipline.  Too bad the method was essentially hopeless.

[Skeetjones]

[Long and boring.]

I first visited Thailand in 1977 about 2/3 of the way through an around-the-world trip. I was here a month and didn't bother to learn much Thai outside of the few phrases in Tony Wheeler's "Southeast Asia On A Shoestring".

I came back to Thailand in the 1980's when a friend of mine was construction manager for a hotel in Phuket. He and his wife lived in a nice big house off Soi Ngam Dupli. They had a maid who only spoke Thai, so I picked up a few phrases watching them interact with her.

I continued to visit Thailand at least once a year after that, mostly to dive in the Similans but also to travel a bit. Again, I never bothered to pick up more than simple traveler's Thai.

In 1996 I decided that knowing more Thai would be useful in my travels so I bought Becker's "Thai for Beginners" book and cassette tapes. My office had just moved, so my five minute commute had turned in to half an hour. I listened to the tapes for an hour a day: a half hour in and a half hour out. I didn't want to learn to read at that time, so I pretty much skipped the sections of the book on the alphabet, consonant classes, etc. Eventually I learned to understand and (I thought) say many useful phrases.

So, it was quite a shock to find on my next visit to Thailand that pretty much nothing that I learned was of much use. Since most of my visits were short and much of my time was spent on dive boats with other Westerners I didn't really have much time to practice.

By the early 2000's (awkward, isn't it?) I was considering retiring in Thailand, so I bought the Rosetta Stone Thai CD. At first, Rosetta Stone is extremely daunting. There's no studying, no memorizing, no reference book. You just sit at the computer screen and try and match spoken and/or written words with pictures. It seems impossibly difficult at first, but if you buy in to their immersion methodology it eventually begins to work. If you keep at it long enough you will learn the language. Unfortunately, the language you will learn is not actual Thai, but "Rosetta Stone Thai", a language spoken nowhere except by people who have learned their Thai from Rosetta Stone. (My wife finds it to be hilarious and will occasionally break into a decent imitation of Rosetta Stone Thai just for the fun of it.)

On the plus side, if you use Rosetta Stone right you will learn to read (sort of). And, you will learn how to read (sort of) without learning the Thai alphabet, consonant classes or tone marks. This was a pleasant surprise. I hadn't set out to learn to read, but after months with Rosetta Stone my brain somehow worked out the symbols and I found I could "read" (note the quote marks) words that I hadn't learned from Rosetta Stone.

At that point I decided I ought to learn the alphabet so I bought a Gor Gai book. I learned one letter per day. I practiced writing each letter I learned; filling up the designated spaces in the Gor Gai book. I also wrote out all the letters I'd learned up to that point ten times in a little notebook I kept for the purpose. Once I'd learned a new letter I'd put that letter's sticker on my computer monitor bezel. Sadly, I never got past ฏ. Learning an additional letter somehow caused an overload in my brain and I'd simply forget one or more of the letters I'd already learned. To this date my computer monitor has only 15 stickers on it.

I retired in 2005 and moved to Thailand. It was a huge shock to me that I couldn't understand anything that anyone said. It was (and it remains) an unintelligible buzz. What happened to those hundreds of hours of study? Why couldn't I pick out any familiar words? What had gone wrong?

Even worse, why couldn't anyone understand what I was saying? Even something as simple as น้ำเปล่า was met with furrowed brows and confused looks. Was my pronunciation really that bad? Yes, it was, and it still is.

Undaunted, I charged on. I had lost Becker's book, so I bought it again and spent many hours with it. I bought primary school books and read them out loud. I read "Manee and Friends" online. I bought the AUA Reading course book (and immediately abandoned it because of its bizarre transcription system). I went through "Speaking Thai" (book and tape) from Asia Books. I bought Becker's "Improving Your Thai Pronunciation" CD and struggled with it for hours. (ใครขายไข่ไก่ - I'm sorry, but I just can't hear the difference.) I learned how to look up words in a printed dictionary.

This brings us up to about 2008 at which point I decided that I was never going to be able to speak Thai and that I should stop wasting money and time on language learning. I continued to practice reading everything I could get my hands on. I really like being able to read road signs, product labels, menus, etc. (It always baffles the Thai waitresses when I can read the menu but have to point at the item I want because if I say it out load I'm certain to be misunderstood.)

Late last year I heard about HighSpeedThai from a post on this forum. I broke my no-more-Thai-language-books rule and bought it. If I were 30 years younger, had a decent ear and wasn't such a cretin, this would be a great course. But, your success at HighSpeedThai depends on your ability to hear and reproduce the tones and on your ability to memorize large amounts of data: letters, consonant classes, tone rules, etc. I can do none of the above, so this effort was yet another ignominious failure.

Why haven't I taken a course or hired a tutor? Well, I live in Korat and there are no courses. And, finding a tutor is next to impossible. I found one online who wants 3000 (yes, three thousand) baht per hour. I have to wonder what sort of Thai she's teaching. I found another who will teach you online using Skype, but she wants 500 baht per hour. That's more than I'm willing and able to pay.

Now it's time for me to make amends. I've lived in this neighborhood for five years. Many of the people with whom I have regular contact have the mistaken impression that I can speak Thai. They hear me say a few things and they figure that since I've lived here a while I must be fluent by now. For example, there's a small minimart where I buy gin. The only two sentences I've ever said to that lady in Thai are, "I want a bottle of Gilby's gin." and "You don't need to put it in a bag." That's it. But, every time I go in there she's on about "ฝรั่งพูดไทยได้ดี", and then she babbles on with zero comprehension by me. I need to let these people know that I can't speak Thai so that they don't waste their time trying to converse with me.

Finally, I need to change tactics. Instead of trying to learn Thai I need to work out strategies for living here without being able to speak. Which reminds me, I should have paid more attention to PeaceBlondie six or seven years ago. He knew back then that an old fart like me would never be able to speak Thai.

That's all folks.

Aye, if you want to learn Thai you just need to keep talking with Thai people so you can get the hang of how a Thai person talks, because programs will usually break the word down into tones and all that, but when you hear it in normal conversation it will throw you off, just brush off the embarrassment, and laugh with them , don't take offense it's just fun.

That is how my mom is fluent in English now, she just kept talking and talking and not Being shy.

I do give you respect for being able to read a good amount.

You'll get there

[Skeetjones]

Don't let it get you down.

You don't need a billion hours to learn, it is possible to teach yourself or work with other people at it. All these people in these videos have to be in there 30's at the oldest, I believe the one kid is around 15.

So all your excuses throw them out the window, and just speak and learn it. I am not fluent either or close, but these guys are defiantly motivation. IT IS POSSIBLE, THIS IS PROOF. These are all young people too.

This guy is a great teacher and understands tones very good.

This black guy, probably has the worst pronunciation or accent out of all of the people in the videos, but he is defiantly a linguist, not sure how many months he was learning it. He also can write and understand words if you look more up on him. BUT, I give him credit, because he can speak/read/write about 20-30 languages, and has never traveled out of OHIO. Amazing.

HOPE THIS MOTIVATES YOU. AND NOT GIVE UP.

[Skeetjones]

This young kid from texas? is amazing, he sounds like a local, not sure how be he can defiantly speak Thai, through all the "ums" and thinking of what to say next.

This guy rapping in LAO, he says he learned from Books and Dictionaries, he sounds like a local to.

[rak sa_ngop]

Have you thought about becoming a Mormon?

I really envy those (young) well dressed western guys (I think they are Mormons) I have seen walking around Lumphini park in pairs trying to convert Thais to their faith in THAI. Maybe there is a connection between religion and language speaking abilities?

Mind you saying that there was a famous Victorian English missionary in Burma who spent years trying to preach to the Burmese in their own language but he never could master the language.

[GarryP]

Really interesting thread. This month I will have been in Thailand 28 years and in that time I have never taken a Thai language lesson (this is not meant as a boast or a lament, just a statement of fact). The only book I have ever used is the old black bible "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language" (just like Samuian). I can read the language well enough to translate official documents from Thai to English but not the other way round. I can read Thai but not write it. I should have learned how to write but never had time. Foolish of me really and I'm reallly kicking myself for this.

I taught myself to read by working out which characters had which sounds by reading sign posts, bus signs (the ones on the sides of the bus which say where the bus passes), and other words which have the same pronunciation (or slight variations) in Thai as in English such as Coke, Pepsi, etc.

For the most part I have lived in a Thai environment so my experience has been pretty much total immersion. I speak Thai nearly 100 percent of the time, and do not notice when the television is on in Thai or English.

Clearly it is possible to gain some level of fluency, but I think if people know they can revert to their own language and still be understood, they tend to get used to that mindset so do not apply themselves as much as they would if they had no choice.

I just wish I was as good as some of the other posters in the Thai language forum.

[nomadic]

So the name of the game is to find good materials that allow you to progress at a good speed and stick to it. I wasted many hundreds of hours using ineffective materials, learning a language is quite a large task, the last thing you want to do is to waste time when doing it.

That is my 2 cents.

Vincent

highspeedthai.com

Hey Vincent,

I bought your course from you a few months ago when I was visiting Chiang Mai, and I'm already reading and pronouncing most everything correctly (my thai in-laws were very impressed). Problem is, I don't know what I am saying! I'm working on the vocab though, so hopefully it will all start to come together soon. Right now I am the only farang living in a small village deep in Isaan where no one speaks english, so daily practice is not a problem...

I highly recommend HST to anyone that's given up on previous materials--I tried them too, and they all suck. It requires real commitment and discipline, but so does learning any language. I think Vincent gets it right with learning to read first (so you know the tone rules, that's why most thais can't understand farangs trying to speak thai) and then building vocab using spaced repetition. There are no shortcuts for learning Thai, so take the long view and know that it will probably be a year of solid study before you can easily understand simple conversations.

Vincent, any plans for a High Speed Lao for all the farangs with Isaan wives?

P.S. A good compliment to HST is "An Essential Thai Grammar", which helps with some of the trickier exceptions to the rules.

[Lost in LOS]

My experience, works for me, not for everybody

I tried to learn by myself for 4 years, I could talk some silly stuff, girls I met said I could speak thai, but no way could I have a real conversation. About 9 months ago I went to a thai teacher that was recommended by several friends that can now read, write and speak absolutely fluent. The teacher is great, but I am old, without much schooling experience in my life, I don't really want to go though all the trouble of learning and studying, but I really want to speak it.

We started off [like most people suggest] learning speaking, reading and writing. I knew lots of words but really couldnt put them together. After a couple of months I was able to read some signs etc but realized, even though I could read some words, I didnt know what they meant and I still couldnt have a conversation, frustrating beyond belief. So i talked with my teacher, who speaks fluent english and is pretty wise to the ways of the world, being married to a german farang and teaching for 30 years, and told her we must do it my way for me to continue. I told her we will put the reading and writing on hold till I can have a fluent conversation easily in thai. I told her my life consisted of interaction with girls, eating, traveling, directions, etc. so I wanted to concentrate on that. Practical Thai. [An example is, I go to a Thai restaurant in Jomtien that only speaks Thai, and can order pork leg, no fat, double amount of pork, usual amount of rice, and charge me accordingly, works out great] Following a book, I will learn things I might never use. [the horse jumps over the fence, I will go to government house, the trees in chang rai are wonderful in the spring], things I will not readily use. After some reluctance, she agreed. Now 8 months later I can have simple conversations, etc. Many Thais think I am fluent but I am far from that, my fault, not the teachers. I don't study, but speak Thai, whenever and where-ever I can. Sometimes it is horrible, many times the Thais don't understand, so I record what I said on my phone, make a not, what was said the previous day, and we go over the conversations in class. Next time I do much better wiht the same conversation. Works great for me and I am enjoying the classes, since I get to use what I learned everyday.

Might not work for everyone but it sure works for me. I think another 6 months and I will continue to learn reading and writing, which will be much more simple after being able to speak thai.

[SoftWater]

I think Vincent gets it right with learning to read first (so you know the tone rules, that's why most thais can't understand farangs trying to speak thai)...

If I were to dig far enough back into my own posts I'm pretty sure I espoused such a view once, too. I'm even surer, however, that it is entirely false.

There's far more to correct pronunciation than just the five tones, and in any case reading doesn't help you get the tones any more correct than simply listening and repeating. On the contrary, imitation is undoubtedly a necessary condition for correct pronunciation, and it seems likely IMHO that it should be a sufficient condition, too. Knowing the tone rules in written Thai doesn't mean you will pronounce words, phrases or sentences correctly, anymore than being able to read music ensures you can sing in tune.

The world is full of language learners who can read but who can't speak well, and that's primarily because speaking requires far more cognitive and physiological skill than does reading.

Incidentally, is Vincent's next book going to be on how do viral marketing across the internet?

Edited October 15, 2010 by SoftWater

[nomadic]

I think Vincent gets it right with learning to read first (so you know the tone rules, that's why most thais can't understand farangs trying to speak thai)...

If I were to dig far enough back into my own posts I'm pretty sure I espoused such a view once, too. I'm even surer, however, that it is entirely false.

There's far more to correct pronunciation than just the five tones, and in any case reading doesn't help you get the tones any more correct than simply listening and repeating. On the contrary, imitation is undoubtedly a necessary condition for correct pronunciation, and it seems likely IMHO that it should be a sufficient condition, too. Knowing the tone rules in written Thai doesn't mean you will pronounce words, phrases or sentences correctly, anymore than being able to read music ensures you can sing in tune.

The world is full of language learners who can read but who can't speak well, and that's primarily because speaking requires far more cognitive and physiological skill than does the reading.

Incidentally, is Vincent's next book going to be on how do viral marketing across the internet?

Interesting. Do you feel that the same applies to beginners?

EDIT: Also, I met Vincent in person, and he is a super nice guy that is genuinely interested in helping people learn thai. It was easy to tell that he is not making a fortune off of his product and that it is a labor of love. If the forum is full of people recommending his course, it has nothing to do with his marketing skills (which I would say are rather weak, actually).

Edited October 15, 2010 by nomadic

[SoftWater]

^ Sorry, does what apply to beginners?

My point is that being able to read Thai does nothing for your pronunciation of tones. You have to have already learned them by copying what the tones sound like.

I wasn't, however, suggesting that learning to read early is not a good idea. Learning to read has many benefits - on student motivation, vocabulary development, pronunciation-guessing (once you already know how the main syllable and vowel clusters are pronounced), and indeed simply offering another channel of communication (I once met a Thai guy who could not speak and communicated only via notes. If I couldn't have read them I would have missed out on meeting a very interesting gentlemen). I'm sure there are other benefits I haven't enumerated.

Many linguists suggest that speaking is in fact the last of the four skills to fall into place for adult second-language learners (reading, writing, listening and speaking), and indeed my own experience as a language teacher confirms that.

[SoftWater]

EDIT: Also, I met Vincent in person, and he is a super nice guy that is genuinely interested in helping people learn thai. It was easy to tell that he is not making a fortune off of his product and that it is a labor of love. If the forum is full of people recommending his course, it has nothing to do with his marketing skills (which I would say are rather weak, actually).

Having spent quite a lot of time reading Vincent's entire website, I can assure you that he knows very well how modern marketing works and how to apply various techniques of psychological persuasion common throughout the advertising industry.

EDIT: I take that back, he might have employed a marketing consultant to do it for him...

Edited October 15, 2010 by SoftWater

[kriswillems]

I think learning to read "aloud" can speed up whole learning process.

It's very useful the know the difference between aspirated and non-aspirated consonants.

It's very useful to know the difference between long and short vowels.

It's very useful to know there are 5 different tones, to recognize which tone should be used and to know how each tone is pronounced.

Of course you could learn this all based on a phonetic script, but why wasting your time with that? Basic reading of Thai language is simple and you can learn to read 90% of all Thai words within one month. I think this is not lost time. Once you can read a new world opens for you (with tons of study material).

Another option is that you don't learn to read but just try to remember the sounds without written material. For me, and probably many others this doesn't work very efficiently.

I agree that reading doesn't help you to get a perfect pronunciation, but it will give you a pronunciation that's good enough (on the condition you can remember how the word is written).

[SoftWater]

I agree that reading doesn't help you to get a perfect pronunciation, but it will give you a pronunciation that's good enough (on the condition you can remember how the word is written).

Not on its own it won't. If you haven't ever heard Thai, no amount of reading Thai script is going to get you anywhere near it. Conversely, there are plenty of people who can speak Thai with excellent pronunciation (both second-language and native speakers, come to that...) who can't read Thai at all.

The benefits of learning to read Thai are many, but I think it's just false to say that it is the key to correct pronunciation as 'nomadic' implied a couple of posts up.

Edited October 16, 2010 by SoftWater

[kriswillems]

I agree that reading doesn't help you to get a perfect pronunciation, but it will give you a pronunciation that's good enough (on the condition you can remember how the word is written).

Not on its own it won't. If you haven't ever heard Thai, no amount of reading Thai script is going to get you anywhere near it. Conversely, there are plenty of people who can speak Thai with excellent pronunciation (both second-language and native speakers, come to that...) who can't read Thai at all.

The benefits of learning to read Thai are many, but I think it's just false to say that it is the key to correct pronunciation as 'nomadic' implied a couple of posts up.

I think listening to how Thai sounds is part of learning to read. Very few people learn to read without knowing how the consonants, vowels and tones sound.

Learning to read without hearing and speaking aloud is indeed pretty useless... it would be like learning an ancient language of which nobody knows for sure how it sounded.

[Joosesis]

I studied Thai for 14 years before I learned to read Thai. I thought I was pretty fantastic! Then I saw that my transcriptions of the words I was hearing was nothing like how they were spelled, and spoke volumes to an uncorrecting accent. We see it in these forums all the time, too.... people write out their estimation of a word asking for examples of its use and it's impossible to help because what they write in no-way sounds like the Thai word.

When I did buckle down and learn to read, it only took a few weeks.

My other language learning mistake... someone told me early on to carry flash cards everywhere I go. I still do! However, I was just planting these newly learned words into my English structure and having a go at it. Yes, everyone could understand me, but yes everyone tried to correct me. My advice to anyone now is read, read, read. Read every day, read anything and everything you can get your hands on. I now draw my new vocab flash cards from what I read....and I already know how to use it in a Thai structure.

[OM3N]

Sorry to resurrect, but this is a great thread.

I have been here nearly 7 years now (27 at the moment). I remember coming here at first and having a double take at the language, I wasn't sure of my long term plans at this point, but Thai just fascinated me for some reason.

I grew up in Kathmandu as a small kid, and spoke mostly Hindi/Nepali till I was 4 ("Can we go to the "Stupa Market" (Super Market) was a favorite with my mom). After arriving in California and the absolutely lovely American public education system, I had lost it all by the age of 6. I basically cannot speak either anymore apart from normal greetings and food stuff.

To me it is very interesting how young children are programmed to learn language. It is simply another step in evolution I guess, but it occurred much more quickly than the previous major steps in evolution.

Anyways, I dove in head-first to learning Thai. I went to Thong Lo Thai Language school and studied 2 hours reading/writing + 1 hour speaking a day with a 1-on-1 teacher(An extremely attractive lady I might add) 3 times a week. I did these 9 hours a week for 3 months, 87 hours total. I came out able to read pretty well, although I couldn't necessarily understand everything I was reading.

Over the next few years I slowly added to my vocabulary without ever picking up another book. I read things and tried to learn from a purely contextual standpoint. I would see a new word and remember it, then ask someone who knew how to translate it, usually a friend from University. This continued for a long time. I sometimes got lazy, but I always had my radar up for new and interesting lingo.

So here I am now. I can read absolutely fluently and understand 80% of what I read in the newspaper. My speaking is still not perfect, I still have trouble with tones at times. And I cannot write well at all due to my peculiar inability to memorize the tone of each consonant (read laziness).

Anyways, I would say to the OP to not give up, just loosen up a bit. Perhaps find some friendly Thais to have a beer with and let the conversation flow, gesticulations and all. Language not need be simply verbal, and a lot of times it is more enjoyable that way.

Good luck to everyone studying Thai out there.

Edited November 3, 2010 by OM3N

[Ratsima]

It's been nearly a year since I did the OP. Four or five months ago I got really discouraged. I'd been doing High Speed Thai for several hours a day for 7 or 8 months and my ability to communicate hadn't improved at all. Sure, I built up my vocabulary and my reading improved a bit, but I'm still at the stage where spoken Thai is just an unintelligible buzz and very few people with whom I speak have any idea what I'm saying. So, I took a vacation from studying Thai. (As per MeadishSweetball's recommendation.)

Every morning during breakfast my wife and I watch the Thai Channel 3 News. I rarely recognize even a single spoken word, so I occupy myself reading the SMS crawl line at the bottom of the screen and the news/weather/sports briefs that are shown on the right side of the screen at various times during the broadcast.

I started back up with High Speed Thai last week, right at the beginning with the tone recognition lessons. And, still, after all these years I cannot reliably distinguish high from low or rising from falling. I've gone through these Anki tone flashcard decks so many times that you'd think I'd have memorized them by now; but that's not the case. It's all guess work and I usually guess wrong. I suppose that explains why I don't recognize spoken Thai words and why Thai people don't understand what I'm saying to them.

In a previous post someone asked whether or not I'd expect to learn a non-Western language from books. Well, I did pretty well with Japanese. I never lived there, but because of work I often transited through Japan and, since I lived on Saipan, I often vacationed in Japan. Although I never learned more than a couple hundred Kanji and never became conversational, I had no trouble making people understand the few words that I knew. I could go into a minimart in Japan, ask for water and be understood. I still can't do that in Thailand.

The whole mess is incredibly disappointing to me. I arrived in Thailand with great expectations about being able to learn the language. I thought I had a good base of study during the nine years before I arrived.

Alas, it has all been pretty much for nought. Granted, the ability to read some is a small consolation, but the big prize would be able to talk to people: my neighbors, my relatives, clerks and shopkeepers, officials and just plain folks on the street. That whole world is closed off to me and I deeply regret it.

[Joosesis]

I read your post last night and haven't been able to get it out of my head. It really is puzzling that you can read Thai, but can't ask for water in a convenience store??? Is this true? Do you have a hearing or speech impediment that might need specific support?

Certainly for clarity tones are essential. However, in many ways, it's just a matter of accent reduction as context will often help you out. The problems most farang have (that I hear) is in vowell pronunciation, not tones.

So what do you say, when you go into the shops and ask for water....I can't wrap my head around how that couldn't be understood...???

[Tod Daniels]

I apologize in advance that this is a LONG post, but none the less, I think the O/P will find it of some marginal value

I cannot short sell how important it is to be able to read thai. It is NOTHING but word after word memorization. So much so, that when you see a thai word written in context you know what it means.

I already know we will have the thai language purists who will come out in droves, saying no, no, no! But recognizing a spelt word in thai is worth VOLUMES! I know some people who can pronounce a word perfectly in thai, tones and all, yet have abso-tively posi-lutely NO idea what it means. To me, that aint worth shit . If I can see a word and know its meaning, well, that means MORE. .. Even if my pronunciation of that word is total crap, I know what it means.

If you learn to recognize thai words as they are spelled in thai, when you see that word you know if it's; enter, he-she-they, white, rice, mountain (same as he-she), news, horn of an animal, a human knee, or a very bad smell, etc. Reading is KEY. But really, reading is mostly something you do in context of what's written. It's not that hard.

Yes I know thai has 44 consonants BUT they make only 21 sounds, so you cut it by more than half already. I know thai has 32 vowel sounds, but if you combine the engrish vowels we have nearly as many sound combinations. (In fact I think there are only three vowel sounds we dont have in engrish.)

Long ago, I stopped tryin' to do low-medium-high toned words because I listened to thais and when they spoke they just blurred 'em all together. Instead I concentrated on either falling or rising tones in high frequency words I would speak in a normal day like tiger, shirt, (although I rarely talk about tigers) But I remembered those words because shirts (at least for me) I pulled DOWN over my body เสื้อ (seuua^F) a FALLING tone, whilst tigers เสือ jump at you (seuua^R) a RISING tone.(and yes I know that mats lie on the ground, thanx). Those falling/rising toned words are the ones that will get you off script FAST!!

Once I concentrated on the rising or falling tones, the understandability of my spoken thai went up by volumes! I'd tell you FORGET the low, medium, high toned words and try to get the rising or falling tones on words you speak every day to match up with what thais say.

Yes, I know the normal word for 'dog' in thai is หมา (maa^R) rising tone, but if I use the "real" word for dog สุนัข (soo^L nak^H), no one confuses it with a horse ม้า (maa^H) high tone. Just like I know the word for "ride" is ขี่ but a LOW tone (khee^L) and the colloquial word for "shit" is ขี้ a FALLING tone (khee^F) and I remember that one only because shit falls out of your ass towards the ground! It's the same as I can remember the difference between white ขาว (khaao^R) and rice ข้าว (khaao^F) because white clouds are in the sky and rice grows outta the ground. (rising and falling)

You can learn this language, and EASILY be understood, IF you forget high, medium, low toned words and just concentrate on falling and rising tones.

As a thai gurl who sells "tickets' would say; COME ON MAN. Sorry that is my slang; ผู้หญิงขายตัว (phuu^F ying^R khaai^R dtuaa^M) = girl who sells her body, BUT ผู้หญิงขายตั๋ว (phuu^F ying^R khaai^R dtuaa^R) = girl who sell tickets, lol. Then again do you want 'one way', 'round trip' or 'express' service? See my slang might work, huh?

You can crack this nut! I am FAR from the sharpest tool in the proverbial shed, and I almost have this nut cracked!!

Then again, maybe not

Edited January 7, 2011 by tod-daniels

[Ratsima]

When asking for water I usually start out with น้ำเปล่า. If that doesn't work I try น้ำดื่ม. If that doesn't work I either say 'water' or point.

And, no, as far as I know I don't have any hearing or speech impediment other than that my brain doesn't do tones. If you play two adjacent notes on a piano I will not be able to tell you which one is higher. When I sing it sounds OK to me, but listeners tell me that I use a single note for the entire song.

I went through the High Speed Thai tone exercises again yesterday. (I do it several times a week.) One of the exercises has a number of high-mid-low tones. (The tone presented is one of the three.) Even though I've been listening to these tone exercises for over a year now, my score was 33%. Just what you'd get by guessing, which is what I have to do since after listening to a spoken tone I have no idea if it's high, mid or low.

I think tod-daniels has some interesting strategies. But, for me, it does no good to know the tone of a word because I can't reliably produce any particular tone just as I can't sing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" using more than one note.

[canuckamuck]

When asking for water I usually start out with น้ำเปล่า. If that doesn't work I try น้ำดื่ม. If that doesn't work I either say 'water' or point.

Perhaps you should say ขอนํ้าเปล่าครับ Because that gives a little more room for the Thai person to put it into context, and another thing that helps is to say it with confidence, like you fully expect to be understood, this gives body language. a shyly spoken phrase in Thai from a farang is rarely understood, even if it is correct.

[Ratsima]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. Whenever I walk into a shop I always start out with สวัสดีครับ to get the other person used to the notion that I'm going to speak in Thai. And, I always use the polite and complete sentences as in canuckamuck's post above.

Sometimes I use the phrasing that my wife always uses when asking for something at a shop: "ไม่ทราบว่ามีน้ำเปล่าครับ"

And, yes, I'm shy, reticent and lack confidence. I am what I am.

[dvc]

When asking for water I usually start out with น้ำเปล่า. If that doesn't work I try น้ำดื่ม. If that doesn't work I either say 'water' or point.

And, no, as far as I know I don't have any hearing or speech impediment other than that my brain doesn't do tones. If you play two adjacent notes on a piano I will not be able to tell you which one is higher. When I sing it sounds OK to me, but listeners tell me that I use a single note for the entire song.

I went through the High Speed Thai tone exercises again yesterday. (I do it several times a week.) One of the exercises has a number of high-mid-low tones. (The tone presented is one of the three.) Even though I've been listening to these tone exercises for over a year now, my score was 33%. Just what you'd get by guessing, which is what I have to do since after listening to a spoken tone I have no idea if it's high, mid or low.

I think tod-daniels has some interesting strategies. But, for me, it does no good to know the tone of a word because I can't reliably produce any particular tone just as I can't sing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" using more than one note.

I've heard this excuse, and many others from native English speakers, when it comes to ability / inability to correctly pronounce Thai tones. If, as you state, there's some type of block in your brain that leaves you unable to recognise and pronounce tones, how do you explain the fact that the more than sixty million Thai who live in this country have no problem learning to reproduce tones? Are they especially gifted? No, I don't think so. Do they have some special property of childhood that enables them to pronounce and recognise tones? No, they're just regular people like everyone else on the planet. So what is that causes native English speakers, (and speakers of other non-tonal languages), so much grief? It is due to the interference caused by the speakers' first language. To apply a fixed and unalterable tone to every syllable we speak is extremely unnatural for the native English speaker.

The first language is always trying to impose its patterns on whatever we say, in direct opposition to what is required to speak clear Thai. The key, I've found, to correct and consistent production of Thai tones, is first to listen to the native speaker in a 'deep' fashion, analysing, absorbing and memorising the tone of every spoken syllable. The second key is to discipline one's voice to conform to the tone patterns and contours of Thai speech. At first, this disciplining of the voice feels very unnatural and quite limiting. However, with practice it eventually becomes second nature, to the point where not only can the student reproduce the tones accurately but he can also add emotional overtones to his speech whilst still maintaining conformity with the Thai tones. For me, it was the constant speaking practice, deep listening, and forcing my voice to duplicate the correct tone that eventually gave me the freedom to speak Thai in an understandable way.

From what I've learned so far, it seems quite clear to me that any barriers we have to overcome to the production of clear, tone-accurate Thai, are deeply embedded as a result of first language interference. The trick is to force the voice to conform to the standard Thai tone patterns. Since I've achieved this myself, I know it's possible. Accept that it's going to feel strange and unnatural for a while, keep practising, and eventually you'll break through the barrier and achieve natural sounding tones.

[Ratsima]

If, as you state, there's some type of block in your brain that leaves you unable to recognise and pronounce tones, how do you explain the fact that the more than sixty million Thai who live in this country have no problem learning to reproduce tones?

Because language acquisition in children is much different from language acquisition in adults. The more interesting question is: How do you explain the fact that sixty million Thais have no problem learning to reproduce tones in their language yet vast numbers of them appear to be completely tone deaf when singing Karaoke?

This in spite of the fact that studies have shown that speakers of tonal languages are much more likely to have perfect pitch than speakers of non-tonal languages:

In a study published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America and being presented at the ASA meeting in Portland on May 21, Deutsch and her coauthors find that musicians who speak an East Asian tone language fluently are much more likely to have perfect pitch.

From Tone Language Is Key To Perfect Pitch in Science Daily.

From what I've learned so far, it seems quite clear to me that any barriers we have to overcome to the production of clear, tone-accurate Thai, are deeply embedded as a result of first language interference. The trick is to force the voice to conform to the standard Thai tone patterns. Since I've achieved this myself, I know it's possible. Accept that it's going to feel strange and unnatural for a while, keep practising, and eventually you'll break through the barrier and achieve natural sounding tones.

I guess the bottom line is that my problem is not one of tone but one of attitude. Not one that I'm about to easily overcome short of a personality transplant.