One Guy's Effort To Learn Thai In 14 Years

[Ratsima]

Here's me reading:

hst.mp3

A monotone that bears no relation to spoken Thai.

It's really not too bad. I was expecting much worse. Your tones, especially when you say ครับ are wide of the mark. You're not hitting the correct high tone for ครับ and you're allowing your English language intonation to override the Thai tones in nearly all instances. However, your interpretation of the Thai consonants and vowels is not too bad. I could understand it, but I needed to make mental corrections to nearly all your tones in order to understand what you're saying.

So you understand why I have trouble communicating and that my essential problem is tone-related?

[dvc]

Here's me reading:

hst.mp3

A monotone that bears no relation to spoken Thai.

It's really not too bad. I was expecting much worse. Your tones, especially when you say ครับ are wide of the mark. You're not hitting the correct high tone for ครับ and you're allowing your English language intonation to override the Thai tones in nearly all instances. However, your interpretation of the Thai consonants and vowels is not too bad. I could understand it, but I needed to make mental corrections to nearly all your tones in order to understand what you're saying.

So you understand why I have trouble communicating and that my essential problem is tone-related?

Yes, I do understand why you have trouble communicating and would agree that the problem is essentially tone-related.

[Ratsima]

So what next?

It seems as if no matter how much time I spend listening to and trying to identify and/or mimic tones I get nowhere.

Here's one of the tone lesson files from HST: low-mid.mp3

No matter how many times I listen to this it still sounds like mid-low or high-mid. I just can't get my brain around the fact that it is actually low-mid.

Same with the exercises on this page:

Listening for the Tone of One-Syllable Words

If I shut my eyes and just listen I almost always get it wrong. If I look at the word and apply the tone rules I can usually (not always) get it right without listening at all.

[GarryP]

So what next?

It seems as if no matter how much time I spend listening to and trying to identify and/or mimic tones I get nowhere.

Here's one of the tone lesson files from HST: low-mid.mp3

No matter how many times I listen to this it still sounds like mid-low or high-mid. I just can't get my brain around the fact that it is actually low-mid.

Same with the exercises on this page:

Listening for the Tone of One-Syllable Words

If I shut my eyes and just listen I almost always get it wrong. If I look at the word and apply the tone rules I can usually (not always) get it right without listening at all.

I too was prepared for something terrible. I undertood everything you said in that short sound bite, but I think dvc has hit the nail on the head. You are speaking Thai as if you are speaking English. Your Krap is way too long as well.

Despite clear tonal problems, I do not really understand why Thais do not understand you. If taken in context, wrong tones should not matter much to comprehension, especially in Bangkok where many foreigners speak Thai and at a myriad of levels. Perhaps, you are in an area where that experience is missing. The typical "Ah sh*t here comes the farang, I'm never going to understand him" type thing which is not as uncommon as you might imagine. I know some nearly fluent foreigners who at times are not understood, just because they are foreign and not expected to speak Thai well or at all.

Don't give up hope though.

I am going to try taping myself soon to check out how I sound. I had never thought of doing that before. Thanks.

[Ratsima]

Thanks for the encouragement Garry.

You're right, when I'm in Bangkok or some touristy place I have a much easier time than I do here in Korat. And, I'm sure it's because the folks here are just not used to hearing and understanding my kind of 'bad' Thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

You apply English 'reading intonation' to all your sentences, with the effect that the final word of each sentence or statement is always lower than the preceding one.   You seem to have correctly identified that the problem you have is related to the interference of intonation on your tones. You seem to have worked hard on learning how to distinguish and produce the tones.  The best advice I can give right now is to keep listening carefully to exactly what Thai speakers say in a given situation, and memorize the entire sentences. Watch Thai talk shows every day. You won't understand at first, but you will get better at it with time if you keep at it. Even if you can not produce the right tones, you may be better at mimicking facial expressions and body postures - these are also important parts of communication so if you can master that side and produce grammatically correct sentences, you stand a much greater chance at being understood. Don't be afraid to use body language to help you along. When asking for water, do the old 'pretending to raise a bottle to your mouth and take a swig' movement, and I am sure you'll be helped along. Obviously this wont always work but it could help in concrete situations. I still tend to do these things even though I know they may make me look a bit silly.   When you produce complete grammatical and idiomatic sentences with the expected body language, you are much more likely to be understood. It is a way of working around the tones, so to speak.   Another idea, not sure if it will work but perhaps worth a go: Try to memorize authentic sentences as entire units (maybe if you treat the tones as points in an intonation pattern rather than absolutes applied to each syllable, it will make things easier for you?).

Also, to make a complete sentence beginning with "mai saap waa" (not necessary but certainly polite just as your wife says) you need to end with a 'rue plao' or 'mai'. Otherwise you are saying "I do not know if you have water" (which is a statement rather than a question). I bet your wife adds the question particle 'mai' or 'rue plao' (most often abbreviated to a 'bpao' or even just a short 'bpa' in colloquial Thai). Also tag on the 'khap' at the end so

mai saap waa mii naam khuad mai khap ?

mai saap waa mii naam khuad rue plao khap?

Or just do

mii naam khuad rue plao khap?

[canuckamuck]

Your Krap is way too long as well.

Forgive my immaturity, but this struck as funny.

[dvc]

Thanks for the encouragement Garry.

You're right, when I'm in Bangkok or some touristy place I have a much easier time than I do here in Korat. And, I'm sure it's because the folks here are just not used to hearing and understanding my kind of 'bad' Thai.

Your comment regarding your ability to be understood in Bangkok, but not in Korat, sounds about right. The Bangkok Thais who deal with foreigners on a daily basis, are much more likely to understand poor tones, than those who live in rural/small town Thailand. The belief that context will help you through all manner of tone mistakes is erroneous. Correct tones are essential to comprehensible Thai. I know from personal experience that if I make a mistake with a tone, a momentary, but slightly awkward silence ensues. I then know to go to my dictionary and check the tone as soon as possible.

You’ve already received a stack of good advice from other posters, and you’ve stated that you’ve been at it now for fourteen years, with only modest success. You also agree that the problem is mainly one of cognition, resulting from an underlying inability to disinhibit yourself in regard to learning Thai. All the right answers, from a second language learning perspective, have already been proffered. This leaves you to attack the problem from a psychological perspective. However, I’m not sure how you go about doing this. I’m not a psychologist, but I have, at various stages of my life, successfully used a number of books on psychology to help me through some personal issues. On the other hand there may be the perfect teacher for you, somewhere in Thailand. One who can help you pronounce tones, whilst at the same time, wear away the inbuilt defences that are interfering with your ability to speak Thai.

[dvc]

So what next?

It seems as if no matter how much time I spend listening to and trying to identify and/or mimic tones I get nowhere.

Here's one of the tone lesson files from HST: low-mid.mp3

No matter how many times I listen to this it still sounds like mid-low or high-mid. I just can't get my brain around the fact that it is actually low-mid.

Same with the exercises on this page:

Listening for the Tone of One-Syllable Words

If I shut my eyes and just listen I almost always get it wrong. If I look at the word and apply the tone rules I can usually (not always) get it right without listening at all.

You mention mid-low and high-mid tones. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Thai has five tones: Low, High, Middle, Rising and Falling. Exactly which tone/s are you referring to?

Edited January 11, 2011 by dvc

[Ratsima]

So what next?

It seems as if no matter how much time I spend listening to and trying to identify and/or mimic tones I get nowhere.

Here's one of the tone lesson files from HST: low-mid.mp3

No matter how many times I listen to this it still sounds like mid-low or high-mid. I just can't get my brain around the fact that it is actually low-mid.

Same with the exercises on this page:

Listening for the Tone of One-Syllable Words

If I shut my eyes and just listen I almost always get it wrong. If I look at the word and apply the tone rules I can usually (not always) get it right without listening at all.

You mention mid-low and high-mid tones. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Thai has five tones: Low, High, Middle, Rising and Falling. Exactly which tone/s are you referring to?

It refers to two syllable words. Mid-low is a word where the first syllable is mid tone and the second syllable is low tone. If you listen to the audio file attached to that post you'll hear a word that has a low initial syllable and a mid second syllable. But, to me it sounds exactly opposite. I hear the first syllable as being higher than the second. I have looked at this file with spectral analysis software and can see that my brain is completely wrong. I still don't know how to train my brain to accurately perceive sound frequencies. I'm sure that my inability to perceive and produce tones is related to my brain's inability to accurately process auditory signals.

[dvc]

You mention mid-low and high-mid tones. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Thai has five tones: Low, High, Middle, Rising and Falling. Exactly which tone/s are you referring to?

It refers to two syllable words. Mid-low is a word where the first syllable is mid tone and the second syllable is low tone. If you listen to the audio file attached to that post you'll hear a word that has a low initial syllable and a mid second syllable. But, to me it sounds exactly opposite. I hear the first syllable as being higher than the second. I have looked at this file with spectral analysis software and can see that my brain is completely wrong. I still don't know how to train my brain to accurately perceive sound frequencies. I'm sure that my inability to perceive and produce tones is related to my brain's inability to accurately process auditory signals.

Thanks for clarifying the matter for me.

^EDIT^

Your comment regarding your ability to be understood in Bangkok, but not in Korat, sounds about right. The Bangkok Thais who deal with foreigners on a daily basis, are much more likely to understand poor tones, than those who live in rural/small town Thailand. The belief that context will help you through all manner of tone mistakes is erroneous. Correct tones are essential to comprehensible Thai. I know from personal experience that if I make a mistake with a tone, a momentary, but slightly awkward silence ensues. I then know to go to my dictionary and check the tone as soon as possible.

You've already received a stack of good advice from other posters, and you've stated that you've been at it now for fourteen years, with only modest success. You also agree that the problem is mainly one of cognition, resulting from an underlying inability to disinhibit yourself in regard to learning Thai. All the right answers, from a second language learning perspective, have already been proffered. This leaves you to attack the problem from a psychological perspective. However, I'm not sure how you go about doing this. I'm not a psychologist, but I have, at various stages of my life, successfully used a number of books on psychology to help me through some personal issues. On the other hand there may be the perfect teacher for you, somewhere in Thailand. One who can help you pronounce tones, whilst at the same time, wear away the inbuilt defences that are interfering with your ability to speak Thai.

Edited January 11, 2011 by dvc

[Ratsima]

Thanks to all for the advice and assistance.

I bet your wife adds the question particle 'mai' or 'rue plao' (most often abbreviated to a 'bpao' or even just a short 'bpa' in colloquial Thai).

Indeed she does. I notice that she almost never uses 'rue plao'; usually just 'bpao' or 'bpa'.

Watch Thai talk shows every day.

Good suggestion. I enjoy เรื่องเล่าเช้านี้ and will look for others.

On the other hand there may be the perfect teacher for you, somewhere in Thailand. One who can help you pronounce tones, whilst at the same time, wear away the inbuilt defences that are interfering with your ability to speak Thai.

Alas, there are limited choices in Korat. The only one I know of wanted me to enroll in her beginners class and buy a bunch of books. The last thing I need is to add more tomes to my already voluminous library of Thai language material. Plus I think I'd find a classroom situation to be too inhibiting.

If anyone out there knows of a decent language coach in Korat I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks again.

[dvc]

Next time you have the opportunity to speak Thai in public, try tapping in to your inner voice and listen to what it’s saying. I’d bet that it will be saying something along the lines of, “don’t do this; if you try to imitate the Thai voice you will only sound ridiculous and everyone will laugh at you”. “Stick to what’s safe and comfortable, ie. English intonation”.

I remember reading somewhere that it can be beneficial to engage in an inner dialogue. Confronting the demons so to speak and exposing them for what they are…unnecessary hindrances that are limiting your growth in the Thai language.

[Ratsima]

Interesting point. Here's what I often do: Formulate a sentence in Thai that I could say to my wife, step-daughter, neighbor, etc, and then chicken out and use English instead. This morning I was about to hop on my bicycle to buy garlands for Wan Phra. So, in my mind I thought "จะไปซื้อดอกไม้" but I ended up saying it English. Failure avoidance.

[SoftWater]

Interesting point. Here's what I often do: Formulate a sentence in Thai that I could say to my wife, step-daughter, neighbor, etc, and then chicken out and use English instead. This morning I was about to hop on my bicycle to buy garlands for Wan Phra. So, in my mind I thought "จะไปซื้อดอกไม้" but I ended up saying it English. Failure avoidance.

This is a common phenomenon amongst learners, and especially for those who are naturally shy. There's a couple of techniques, this is by far the best:

1. Find a one-on-one personal tutor/language partner who doesn't speak any English.

This could be a trained teacher, but it also could be a neighbour or relative who's willing to spend 20 - 30 minutes a time with you. I think finding such a person is actually the hardest thing, but if you can find someone and meet them regularly you're more than half way there.

You can pick simple topics with vocab you already know, or try to learn new vocab (since you can read and write Thai it should be easy to find some material for your tutor to play with.). The essential thing is to forget about going over fixed sentence pattern and pronunciation/tone rules, but to pick a topic that can result in a genuine conversation - describe your home town, your family, your previous or current job - ask about the same topics with the tutor/language partner. Neither expect nor try to understand everything or make everything understandable. Just try to keep the conversation going.

If you try something like this I can't emphasize enough - 1. forget trying to write anything down or remember anything; 2. repeat sessions as often as possible - - short 20 minute sessions every day are far more use than an hour once a week. The learning occurs

A. by repetition and

B. by not concentrating or consciously 'trying to learn'.

Don't expect miracle results, but 3 months of this and you'll find your reticence to speak to others has vanished, and your language skill will be on a much firmer footing.

2. Use a voice recorder

Finding a tutor or getting over shyness on one's own is not for everyone. Here's an alternative. Buy yourself one of those mini digital voice recorders (Sony do a nice one for about 3000 baht that's got more memory than you'll ever need - you can also download the mp3s to your computer). Take yourself off for a nice walk if you can't find any solitude around the house. Give yourself a topic - e.g., 'What I am going to do today' and try to talk about it for 2 minutes (the recorder has a timer on the display) in Thai. Do this everyday (or more than once a day) and be creative and more adventurous in your 2-minute topics as you get more confident.

Play the 2-minute recordings to your wife, and ask her what you're talking about. Try to identify the parts she can't make sense of, and try them again the next session. You can get her to model the pronunciation on the voice recorder and play it back to yourself while out on your walks.

Lastly, keep learning to read and write. I'm not particularly outgoing myself, and when I completely fail to say something sensible, sometimes I just write it down and ask someone to say it for me. The voice recorder is useful with this too. You can keep a library of stuff you find particularly difficult.

Best of luck

SW

[dvc]

Interesting point. Here's what I often do: Formulate a sentence in Thai that I could say to my wife, step-daughter, neighbor, etc, and then chicken out and use English instead. This morning I was about to hop on my bicycle to buy garlands for Wan Phra. So, in my mind I thought "จะไปซื้อดอกไม้" but I ended up saying it English. Failure avoidance.

I’ll take that as confirmation of what I said in my previous post.

There are things going on below the surface that are having a direct impact on your ability to accept Thai as an alternative means of communication.

[ds1232]

A great thread! I am new to Thailand living in Khorat and trying to learn Thai. My wife is Thai and is encouraging me to learn the language. I have found Khorat to have few classroom settings to learn Thai. I have inquired at the AUA Khorat and found they do not offer Thai classroom instruction in Khorat. I would like to meet with other farang who are learning Thai in Khorat if there is a group which is meeting I would welcome information. I have noticed that the Thai people are much more tolerant in my lack of proper tone and mispronunciation than my experience with learning Chinese. This is crude comparison as the language structure is different. I am finding the tones most difficult with respect to learning other languages (French, German and Spanish). I appreciate breath of experience that has been previously expressed, it give me hope! Thanks!

T

Sorry to resurrect, but this is a great thread.

I have been here nearly 7 years now (27 at the moment). I remember coming here at first and having a double take at the language, I wasn't sure of my long term plans at this point, but Thai just fascinated me for some reason.

I grew up in Kathmandu as a small kid, and spoke mostly Hindi/Nepali till I was 4 ("Can we go to the "Stupa Market" (Super Market) was a favorite with my mom). After arriving in California and the absolutely lovely American public education system, I had lost it all by the age of 6. I basically cannot speak either anymore apart from normal greetings and food stuff.

To me it is very interesting how young children are programmed to learn language. It is simply another step in evolution I guess, but it occurred much more quickly than the previous major steps in evolution.

Anyways, I dove in head-first to learning Thai. I went to Thong Lo Thai Language school and studied 2 hours reading/writing + 1 hour speaking a day with a 1-on-1 teacher(An extremely attractive lady I might add) 3 times a week. I did these 9 hours a week for 3 months, 87 hours total. I came out able to read pretty well, although I couldn't necessarily understand everything I was reading.

Over the next few years I slowly added to my vocabulary without ever picking up another book. I read things and tried to learn from a purely contextual standpoint. I would see a new word and remember it, then ask someone who knew how to translate it, usually a friend from University. This continued for a long time. I sometimes got lazy, but I always had my radar up for new and interesting lingo.

So here I am now. I can read absolutely fluently and understand 80% of what I read in the newspaper. My speaking is still not perfect, I still have trouble with tones at times. And I cannot write well at all due to my peculiar inability to memorize the tone of each consonant (read laziness).

Anyways, I would say to the OP to not give up, just loosen up a bit. Perhaps find some friendly Thais to have a beer with and let the conversation flow, gesticulations and all. Language not need be simply verbal, and a lot of times it is more enjoyable that way.

Good luck to everyone studying Thai out there.

[oldsailor35]

Sorry, you must be prepared to make a fool of yourself

Sorry. Can't do it. Never could. Way too old to change.

Yes mate ! i am a bit like that. Went to language school on Samui was just beginning to understand but had to return to oz for 10 months, no one to practice with, am now back and cannot remember sweet FA ! think its about time i gave up.

[justaphase]

Get yourself a gf/gig/wife who doesnt speak English.. helped me no end...

[phomsanuk]

Been here 10 yrs living with a Thai that doesn't speak English, I cannot hold a conversation but get the drift if I hear one and have absorbed those phrases that get me what I need. Most knowledgeable on Thai money.

[bifftastic]

Living with someone for 10 years and not having a conversation with them? What's that like? Do you just point at stuff?