Honda's New Bike Transmissions

[CMX]

A part of Honda's novel offerings (combined with their move to fuel injection in their entire line in Thailand) may best be explained, so far, here:

www.greencarcongress.com/2009/09/dct-cvmatic-20090908.html

Apologies if this posted elsewhere - I didn't see it if so.

[Richard-BKK]

In a conventional CVT V-belt transmission the power lost to friction, this friction created heat with this heat the rubber of the V-belt rubber changed in contact properties. Creating a headache for any CVT transmission designer, it's a sort of industry secret but classic CVT V-belt transmissions are not very economic on fuel consumption lots of the engine power is lost in the V-belt transmission in the form of unused energy consumption.

With the CV-Matic Honda believes that they taken the main problem out of V-belt transmission. And I have the idea that they are successful. You can easily hold a Yamaha Fino (115cc) from moving away, to some point the heat will just burn the V-belt, but I wouldn't advice “upset” boyfriends to stand in front of a CV-Matic powered motorcycle/scooter... Because you are going on the front wheel and get likely run over...

Another example is the mountains, ever had the problem you needed to stop climbing a hill and try to get moving again... engine revving like hel_l while you actually moving like a snail? That is history...

[paulchiangmai]

In a conventional CVT V-belt transmission the power lost to friction, this friction created heat with this heat the rubber of the V-belt rubber changed in contact properties. Creating a headache for any CVT transmission designer, it's a sort of industry secret but classic CVT V-belt transmissions are not very economic on fuel consumption lots of the engine power is lost in the V-belt transmission in the form of unused energy consumption.

With the CV-Matic Honda believes that they taken the main problem out of V-belt transmission. And I have the idea that they are successful. You can easily hold a Yamaha Fino (115cc) from moving away, to some point the heat will just burn the V-belt, but I wouldn't advice “upset” boyfriends to stand in front of a CV-Matic powered motorcycle/scooter... Because you are going on the front wheel and get likely run over...

Another example is the mountains, ever had the problem you needed to stop climbing a hill and try to get moving again... engine revving like hel_l while you actually moving like a snail? That is history...

Has the new PCX got this fancy transmission you are talking about or does it have the old v belt system?

[CHdiver]

I can not see anything that it is more fuel efficient, more like it needs less space, so it can be fitted into a wave.

[Richard-BKK]

The Honda PCX has the new CV-Matic transmission.

The Honda CV-Matic can be reduced in size because it produces less heat, sure heat is not fully eliminated, but the new CV-Matic produces much less heat. The heat produced in the transmission by friction is pure wasted energy, reducing this friction is energy saving. This makes a motorcycle or scooter which uses a more efficient transition, one which loses less energy by friction, more fuel-efficient....

[nikster]

The Dual Clutch Transmission sounds really tasty... droool.... this is made for large displacement sports bikes. And if it works as advertised I'd think that all bikes will work this way some day not too far away.

The Dual Clutch Transmission main shaft consists of two coaxial shafts: an inner shaft for odd-numbered gears (1st, 3rd, 5th) and an outer shaft for even-numbered gears (2nd, 4th, 6th). Both the inner and outer shafts are connected to mutually independent clutches, which operate alternately to achieve fast, seamless gear changes with constant, uninterrupted power application.

Edited February 20, 2010 by nikster

[katabeachbum]

The Honda PCX has the new CV-Matic transmission.

The Honda CV-Matic can be reduced in size because it produces less heat, sure heat is not fully eliminated, but the new CV-Matic produces much less heat. The heat produced in the transmission by friction is pure wasted energy, reducing this friction is energy saving. This makes a motorcycle or scooter which uses a more efficient transition, one which loses less energy by friction, more fuel-efficient....

According to Hondas PCX brochure, its transmission is called V-MATIC. I do not see or feel any advantage compared to Yammys cvt or Suzukis cvt.

suzukis 125 cc aircooled carb cvt is faster off the line.

yammys 135cc carb cvt is stronger up the hills loaded.

loaded with 160kg and pulling a 20 kg trailer with 50 kg rottweiler, yammys 135cc carb cvt is the strongest

[b19bry]

yammys 135cc carb cvt is stronger up the hills loaded.

loaded with 160kg and pulling a 20 kg trailer with 50 kg rottweiler, yammys 135cc carb cvt is the strongest

I've been trying to picture this in my mind, for the hel_l of me I can't imagine why one would put a trailer like this on the back of these bikes in the first place, but then to go and measure the performance difference when dragging a dog up hills is mind boggling ! Please post any pics.

Did you fit the same setup to you're Ninja 650 ?

[katabeachbum]

yammys 135cc carb cvt is stronger up the hills loaded.

loaded with 160kg and pulling a 20 kg trailer with 50 kg rottweiler, yammys 135cc carb cvt is the strongest

I've been trying to picture this in my mind, for the hel_l of me I can't imagine why one would put a trailer like this on the back of these bikes in the first place, but then to go and measure the performance difference when dragging a dog up hills is mind boggling ! Please post any pics.

Did you fit the same setup to you're Ninja 650 ?

I dont use my Ninja to pull a trailer, but another TV member has a trailer hitch on his Ninja 650R

I use the trailer mostly to bring my dog to the beach, and it does draw some attention, not by locals but by tourists. Much better than a sidecar, since it can be disconncted in a second. Locally I prefere not to use my pickup or car.

Performance of cvt auto scoots are measured daily in our steep hills as posted above, with normal load. I posted here since Richard BKK again has claimed some unique features for PCX. Previously it was a hybrid, now it has a CV-MATIC much better than competition. I fail to see both. PCX V-MATIC performs no better than suzuki or Elegance CVT. Neither off the line, loaded up the hills or extremely loaded like 160 kg pluss trailer 70 kg. Stopping on the way up and then try to start again is impossible for rider alone, just like other 110-135cc autos, despite Richard BKKs claim.

[katabeachbum]

The Dual Clutch Transmission sounds really tasty... droool.... this is made for large displacement sports bikes. And if it works as advertised I'd think that all bikes will work this way some day not too far away.

The Dual Clutch Transmission main shaft consists of two coaxial shafts: an inner shaft for odd-numbered gears (1st, 3rd, 5th) and an outer shaft for even-numbered gears (2nd, 4th, 6th). Both the inner and outer shafts are connected to mutually independent clutches, which operate alternately to achieve fast, seamless gear changes with constant, uninterrupted power application.

this is no doubt the auto for the feature in big bikes. Its been around for approx 12 years, audi started 1998 I believe. In a car it shifts faster than any other, less pollution and less fuel.

[Scuddy]

Honda will begin sales of the new Honda Wave 110i AT (CV-Matic) in March. Starting price is 44,900. It is not replacing the standard Honda Wave, but extending the range and choices available.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Scuddy

[Richard-BKK]

Performance of cvt auto scoots are measured daily in our steep hills as posted above, with normal load. I posted here since Richard BKK again has claimed some unique features for PCX. Previously it was a hybrid, now it has a CV-MATIC much better than competition. I fail to see both. PCX V-MATIC performs no better than suzuki or Elegance CVT. Neither off the line, loaded up the hills or extremely loaded like 160 kg pluss trailer 70 kg. Stopping on the way up and then try to start again is impossible for rider alone, just like other 110-135cc autos, despite Richard BKKs claim.

You are right Honda has confirmed that the Honda PCX is not equipped with the CV-Matic. And in the past I indeed pointed out some unique features of the Honda PCX, some where not completely correct. But I never, to my knowledge used or call the Honda PCX a "Hybrid". The time I posted information about the unique start-stop system was even before people inside Honda Thailand could explain the technology clearly. The Honda PCX is equipped with a alternative-current cell-motor which starts the engine, this type of electronic motors is mostly used for the propulsion of electronic scooters.

For the uphill climb and not want to start I never claimed anything on this also, but I can tell that you likely overloading the maximum capacity of the scooter...

[katabeachbum]

Performance of cvt auto scoots are measured daily in our steep hills as posted above, with normal load. I posted here since Richard BKK again has claimed some unique features for PCX. Previously it was a hybrid, now it has a CV-MATIC much better than competition. I fail to see both. PCX V-MATIC performs no better than suzuki or Elegance CVT. Neither off the line, loaded up the hills or extremely loaded like 160 kg pluss trailer 70 kg. Stopping on the way up and then try to start again is impossible for rider alone, just like other 110-135cc autos, despite Richard BKKs claim.

You are right Honda has confirmed that the Honda PCX is not equipped with the CV-Matic. And in the past I indeed pointed out some unique features of the Honda PCX, some where not completely correct. But I never, to my knowledge used or call the Honda PCX a "Hybrid". The time I posted information about the unique start-stop system was even before people inside Honda Thailand could explain the technology clearly. The Honda PCX is equipped with a alternative-current cell-motor which starts the engine, this type of electronic motors is mostly used for the propulsion of electronic scooters.

For the uphill climb and not want to start I never claimed anything on this also, but I can tell that you likely overloading the maximum capacity of the scooter...

105 kg up the hills overload? dont think so. the Honda waves pulling 5 trailers with 300 kg jetski each are overloaded.

actually you are talking about a further developed CVT called CV-MATIC not yet for sale, thus impossible to check the advantages you claim in this thread.

[Richard-BKK]

Not sure how much you load the scooter, first you speak of "loaded like 160 kg pluss trailer 70 kg", and now we talking about 105 kg? 105kg is indeed not overloading the scooter. With Honda Wave's are you comparing automatic scooters to transmission motorcycles?

An the CV-Technology is no future technology, I was at the introduction, and saw actually somebody trying to hold a Wave 110iAT from taking off. The same person was able to hold another 110cc scooter with regular CVT transmission on its place.

[katabeachbum]

Not sure how much you load the scooter, first you speak of "loaded like 160 kg pluss trailer 70 kg", and now we talking about 105 kg? 105kg is indeed not overloading the scooter. With Honda Wave's are you comparing automatic scooters to transmission motorcycles?

An the CV-Technology is no future technology, I was at the introduction, and saw actually somebody trying to hold a Wave 110iAT from taking off. The same person was able to hold another 110cc scooter with regular CVT transmission on its place.

in this thread, your first post was a CV-MATIC can stop while going up the hills, and then start again going up. later post you said PCX has this transmission. I replyed PCX can, as all other 110-135 sccots I have tried, not do this with my 105 kg. read it again if in doubt.

odd for Honda to release PCX as their new hightech couple of months back, but with according to you old dated cvt.

[FrankHKT]

according to motorcycle.in.th pcx is equipped with cv-matic:

http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php/Th...er-the-Powerful

but in the honda brochure they mention v-matic. what's the difference?

[Richard-BKK]

in this thread, your first post was a CV-MATIC can stop while going up the hills, and then start again going up. later post you said PCX has this transmission. I replyed PCX can, as all other 110-135 sccots I have tried, not do this with my 105 kg. read it again if in doubt.

odd for Honda to release PCX as their new hightech couple of months back, but with according to you old dated cvt.

Sure the first post I'm talking about the CV-Matic, and it's obvious this is the "Honda's new bike transmission", hence the topic of this posting. I already acknowledged that I made a mistake by thinking that the Honda PCX was equipped with this new transmission, but if you want to hear it again "the Honda PCX is not equipped with the CV-Matic transmission"

[nikster]

The Dual Clutch Transmission sounds really tasty... droool.... this is made for large displacement sports bikes. And if it works as advertised I'd think that all bikes will work this way some day not too far away.

The Dual Clutch Transmission main shaft consists of two coaxial shafts: an inner shaft for odd-numbered gears (1st, 3rd, 5th) and an outer shaft for even-numbered gears (2nd, 4th, 6th). Both the inner and outer shafts are connected to mutually independent clutches, which operate alternately to achieve fast, seamless gear changes with constant, uninterrupted power application.

this is no doubt the auto for the feature in big bikes. Its been around for approx 12 years, audi started 1998 I believe. In a car it shifts faster than any other, less pollution and less fuel.

In the article they say the system can work in either auto or manual mode. Though since you're not going to have 2 clutches, I guess manual mode is going to be electronically controlled. I don't need an auto on a sports bike, obviously. But it sounds like this would have the potential to simply perform much better than a single clutch system, and in that case, it's going to be in sports bikes.

[CMX]

Regarding the CV-Matic and the PCX, the problem is that when the PCX was introduced, there were a number of "authoritative" articles that stated that the PCX had the newest CV-Matic, the one that's cooled for longer life, (apparently modest fuel efficiencies), and shorter belt size. Later articles picked up this "fact" from earlier releases and readers were fooled. But I find that they include in their pieces some other errors - including their report of a "kickstarter." It is this absence that explains in particular some posters' concerns about the PCX regarding battery life with the "stop-start" function. - but that's another thread.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

About 12 years ago i fixed a motorbike which had a two-speed automatic named a "Hondamatic". This worked like a car's automatic, i.e. you could feel it actually changing gears. That particular bike was a 400cc two-cylinder chopper type bike and it had a "gear shifter" like a manual however no clutch, instead of a clutch there was a parking brake that could be engaged when parking and had to be engaged to start the engine (no e-start and with the brake not engaged the kick start could not be kicked). The "gear shifter" selected between "1" and "2" as indicated by two lights in a round "instrument" in the place where other bikes would have a tachometer, beside the speedometer. I did not quite find out what function this had as in either mode both actual gears were available, and VERY long gears they were. Top speed of that thing was about 120 km/h.

Is the new CV-Matic something klike that, i.e. does it have actual gears? Or is it like the other scooter-type?

The only automatic bike i would ever own would be like that old Honda - with actual gears. But then i prefer fully manual (with clutch!) above all other types

Best regards.....

Thanh

[BSJ]

I have quickly become a fan of DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission). Honda have seen the light, and I am sure they will be fitting it to many more bikes in the future. Audi, Ferrari, Porsche et al have gone into it in a big way. It's covered in this article I sussed out.

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/hon...view-88873.html

[CMX]

OP here.

I thought when I read the original (post 1) article that DUAL CLUTCH was going to be, for bike buyers of bigger bikes, a more important factor for immediate use than CV-matic for smaller bikes - and I still do. The latter may well lead to longer life and better reliability, but is not going to show anything much in the way of performance.

DUAL CLUTCH, of course, has been announced by Ford Motors for all of its US auto xmissions, always coupled to a six-speed (with modes of operation), they say, starting in 2010 and complete by 2013, they say.

More interesting to me is that, in BIG BIKES, shifting speeds should be terrific with DUAL CLUTCH, as the second clutch prepares for all but instantaneous shifting in acceleration - which may give Honda a very real boost in this maneuver over the best human efforts. Even if these devices result in slightly better fuel efficiency, it is certain that it will take a looong time to recover their purchase costs, whatever the currency of your choice.