New campaign to use both 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

[dr_Pat_Pong]

  In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A small, slightly off topic comment. I think that Pibul's name in Thai ends in the letter lahw....which is roughly equivalent to the English letter 'L' in pronunciation except when it comes at the end of a word where it is pronounced roughly like the letter 'N'. So his name would be pronounced 'Pibun', but the accepted Thai way to transliterate (not sure if this is the right word) from Thai script to English letters is to keep the lahw on the end as and English 'L'. In learning to pronounce Thai words when reading from English letters you should learn that there is never an 'L' sound on the end of a word and the letter 'L' found at the end is pronounced as an 'N'.

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are correct on both counts

[raslin]

  In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A small, slightly off topic comment. I think that Pibul's name in Thai ends in the letter lahw....which is roughly equivalent to the English letter 'L' in pronunciation except when it comes at the end of a word where it is pronounced roughly like the letter 'N'. So his name would be pronounced 'Pibun', but the accepted Thai way to transliterate (not sure if this is the right word) from Thai script to English letters is to keep the lahw on the end as and English 'L'. In learning to pronounce Thai words when reading from English letters you should learn that there is never an 'L' sound on the end of a word and the letter 'L' found at the end is pronounced as an 'N'.

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite right, Pibul is the correct transliteration. Problems arise with Chin and Shin as well as Chula and Jula not to mention Jaroenkrung Road!

I can see no value whatsoever is having a double name for the country. We could go back to calling it the Kingdom of Ayuthaya (with only one T), but I am sure most civil servants would prefer the Kingdom of Bangkok!!

Edited May 15, 2005 by raslin

[Galong]

"it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power."

Thailand has been colonized by a foreign power - the Chinese. What percentage of the Bangkok government is full-blood Thai??

[hjgelderman]

Hot media story right now:

"The Prince Damrongrajanuphap Library has proposed the reintroduction of the kingdom's old name ``Siam'' for use along with Thailand to celebrate the 60th anniversary of His Majesty the King's ascension to the throne next year."

So which do you like?  Siam or Thailand?

Thailand to change name to 'Siam' - but keep 'Thailand'

New campaign to use 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

BANGKOK: -- An heir of Thailand's first interior and education minister has called for the government to alternately use 'Siam' and 'Thailand' as the offcial name of the Thai kingdom.

M.L. Panadda Disakul, the Deputy Governor of Pathum Thani Province on the outskirts of Bangkok, who is the heir of late Prince Damrong Rajanuparp, the first Thai interior and education minister, as well as the first Thai army chief,

noted that 'Siam' is a historically dignified and auspicious name, designated by King Rama IV, and it should be honourably preserved.

"Siam is an auspiciously dignified name, as it was designated by His Majesty King Rama IV, and it represents the longly-proud history of the Thai kingdom. So, it should be re-used as the official name of the Thai kingdom, alternately with Thailand", she said.

"An official campaign should be launched to promote the use of the alternate national name among Thai youths and the general public", she added.   

She proposed the idea when she met Culture Minister Uraiwan Thienthong and senior Fine Arts Department officials yesterday.

M.L. Panadda is also the head of Prince Damrong Rajanuparp Museum and Library, where Mrs. Uraiwan and the senior officials visited yesterday.

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

A previous Thai government changed the national name from 'Siam' to 'Thailand' in 1939 amid the opposition of a large number of Thais, she said.

--TNA 2005-05-14

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[waldwolf]

......due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thought that was what Japan was trying to do, from 1941-1945.

My vote goes to Siam.

Personally, I find it a pain in the butt, when countries keep changing their names. I can never find their new names on my old maps.

cheers

[gburns57au]

"it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power."

Thailand has been colonized by a foreign power - the Chinese.  What percentage of the Bangkok government is full-blood Thai??

What I meant by "colonized by a foreign power" is that Thailand has never been invaded and the entire country controlled by a another country.....My error, I should have been more precise in my wording.

The Chinese may have been some of the early settlers in the region, But China has never controlled Thailand since Thailand became a country in its own right.

[meadish_sweetball]

Sorry this is way off-topic but I want to ask because it will never be on-topic. You sig:

เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่วให้หลิ่วตาตาม

When I try to translate I come up with non-sense like:

Enter the town squinting causes you to squint afterwards

What does it actually mean?

Here is a breakdown for you, the meaning has already been explained above:

เข้า เมือง ตา หลิ่ว ให ้หลิ่ว ตา ตาม

enter city/kingdom eye squint [causative particle] squint eye follow

(When you) come into the squint-eyed kingdom, squint your eyes like the others.

[falstaff]

Going back to my dim and distant youth .I recall the following being written on envelopes BURMA for SIAM

Be Undressed And Ready My Angel for Sexual Intercourse At Midnight !!

[Martin]

I can't envisage the King and the PM of Thailand thinking other than that it would be unwise to promote the use of the wod "Siam".

Given that "Siam" is associated with just Central Thailand, it would have nuances of insult to Esarn, Northern Thailand and Southern Thailand to start promoting it as a description of all Thailand.

Think what a gift it would be to the Scottish Nationalists and the Welsh Nationalists if a member of the London Establishment propsed that "England" be used to describe all of Great Britain.

Thailand has done quite a good job of avoiding splintering. But the present unrest in the South should be a warning to avoid anything that might release any nascent tendencies to friction between its regions.

[Greer]

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

You are correct.

All to do with silent final consonants, or ones pronounced differently when at the end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry this is way off-topic but I want to ask because it will never be on-topic. You sig:

?????????????????????????????

When I try to translate I come up with non-sense like:

Enter the town squinting causes you to squint afterwards

What does it actually mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, It means " you should do what people in that area (or town) do" or another word is " try to blend in with that culture where you live in" You know what I mean? I know, some Thai proverb is weird. I didn't get either when I was little. I understood from the context when people say it.

About the prime minister last name, you are right. His pronounced "Shinawat" but the way they spell it comes from they way it appears as in Sansakrit language. Another example, the King's name pronounce as "Poom-mi-pon" but they spell it as "Bhumipol" or "Bhumibol". I have the same problem with my lastname too Once I had my passport done for the first time, the officer wouldn't let me spell the way I used to do (Sansakrit way). I needed to submit supportive documents for this. Usually, Thai people would spell their name in English as the way it pronouced in Thai. Only more educated people would spell as it appeared in Sansakrit. Also, Thai people don't think of (or don't know) their name came from Sansakrit. More trouble actually..55555

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Jaibelle - thanks for the translation - in English exactly the same proverb exists: "When in Rome, do as the Romans..."

Regarding the Thai/Siam question, the name "Siam" certainly sounds more romantic, but this may be exactly why no change should be made - it is a name associated with the ancestry of the modern Thai, and although we know the reasons for it's existence, as so well explained by GazChaingmai earlier, the modern Thais should be the ones to decide if they really want to promote it as the alternate official name of the kingdom.

I will ask my wife and children what they think, but I suspect they will prefer to be thought of firstly as Thais, rather than as Siamese.

Has anyone followed up on an earlier post regarding the legality of the original name change in the early part of the last century?

[Greer]

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

You are correct.

All to do with silent final consonants, or ones pronounced differently when at the end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry this is way off-topic but I want to ask because it will never be on-topic. You sig:

เข้าเมืองตาหลิ่วให้หลิ่วตาตาม

When I try to translate I come up with non-sense like:

Enter the town squinting causes you to squint afterwards

What does it actually mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the translating system is trying to say: If you enter a town where they squint, you should also learn to squint..."

[faranginbkk]

"The primary reason given for the post-WW2 name change to Thailand was that "Siam" was a name imposed by foreigners. ".

I don't think so. I talked to a Thai academic and he told me the following. The name was changed from Siam to Thailand in 1939 by a general. Time and person are not insignificant.

The general (Pibul) looked at the neighbouring countries in 1939 and envisioned a 'greater Thailand' - a land of Thai/Tai speakers. This included Shan State (Burma), parts of Laos, parts of Vietnam and parts of Yunnan. 'Greater Thailand' in 1939......sounds similar to what a certain European nation was up to.....

Anyway, the general did not succeed with his expansion plans, but the new name became official.

In view of the above......I prefer Siam.

[Greer]

I think the key here should be that they would consider *adding* the name Siam, not replacing Thailand with Siam.

I agree with many posters here who recall the days of a certain movie with Yul B. and the fact that the name Siam still evokes a sense of the exotic Far East.

Regarding that movie and the story on which it is based - perhaps it should be the subject of a forum thread of it's own, as it is, to my mind, quite insulting to the royal family.

I really think that the TAT should use the Siam name, as well as Thailand, in a campaign to promote the exotic cultural aspects of the country.

[sabaijai]

Interestingly, Megrai was Lawa-Dtai as the result of marriage between a Lawa King and a Shan princess from Kentung.

My written sources say the mother was Thai Lu from Sipsongpanna.

Also, Gaz, in what dialect of Chinese does /syam/ mean "beyond the mountain pass"?

Regarding 'Siam' vs 'Thailand', I think the unwritten subtext of the proposal might be that since Thailand has recently experienced an unprecedented string of misfortunes - SARS, bird flu, Southern violence and the tsunami - it is superstitiously thought that a name adjustment might put things right.

[The Philosopher]

My wife has commented being Siamese makes her sound like a cat or an adjoined twin

[Foggy Bottom]

Your thinking makes lots of sense and it's interesting to read about. Then some don't. You have many historical references. What is your source and reference? Please quote that atleast.

Do you think people will buy your rewriting of history just like that???

In the contects you dont make much sense. Not a single stated date?

We all have right for opinions. And that's great, but lets not call opinions stated history.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Much greater detail is available in my published books (available through Asia Books, DK Books etc and a number of larger independant stores depending on where you live).

They contain full date and bibliographical data, plus lists of source documents and their original languages and countries of origin. If you wish to know more detail, then please put your hand in your wallet and buy the books - I did not add academic style footnote cross references to my post, as it is inappropriate for an Internet forum, I attempted to use easy to follow logic - sorry if it leaves you unconvinced and that you will have to buy something (instead of getting it free) in order to satisfy your curiosity.

In general, my sources are of two type - the modern writings of distinguished academics (as opposed to the TAT pulp fiction promulgated and repeated daily), and the medieval and earlier chronicles written in a variety of languages and locations. The Kunming Institute of Ethnic Minority Studies has been invaluable to me in researching the inter-relationships between the Dtai, Tai, and Syam peoples of past and present - you may want to visit them sometime as their archives are vast and the staff speak excellent English. Additionally, Sri Lankan temple chronicles have a lot of information about pre-13th Century AD "Thailand".

For contextual clarification .....

Mon Dvaravati Culture of the Siamese central plains was supplanted around 600-700 AD by emergent cultures and conquered by Angkor Khmers during the 9th & 10th centuries

Angkor sprang from the former Chenla (Southern tip of modern Laos) to supplant the former Fonan kingdom (existed 1st - 6th C AD) but it was not until Suriyavaraman II took control in 802AD that Angkor extended its realm as far as the 3 Pagodas Pass and north to the SipSongPanNa of Yunnan, although north of Chiang Saen was more likely to have been tributary states rather than conquered lands.

NanChao (the southern Prince) gave way to Nanchao (the southern princedom) with Beijing's blessing around the 8th C AD (I don't have dates to hand as I type this) and the repeated Chinese "Expeditions of Authority" led to Nanchao citizens migrating west and south - the Dtai began entering upper Thailand and from this sprang kingdoms like Phayao (which together with Sukhothai allied with Mengrai's LanNa in the 1280's AD to "resist the Mongols")

By the early 1200s, Angkor was suffering internal strifes and losing its grip on frontier provinces. This allowed the revolt in Sukhothai that led to Ramkhamhaeng's grandfather establishing himself as king. The Chiang Saen and Ngoern Yang regions of extreme upper modern Thailand follwed and being cut off from Angkor, regions north of them followed suit until the middle Mekhong area was a mass of independant village and township kingdoms. They were united under Mengrai of LanNa during his campaigns beginning in the 1250s through to the 1280s by which time he had established his capital in the former Mon-Khmer location of Wieng Kum Kam. from WKK he launched his Dtai and Tai unifying expeditions into Martaban, Pegu, Shan States, SipSongPanNa, Kentung, LanChang (Louang Phrabang), VienChang (Vientiane) and formed his alliance with Sukhothai and Nandapuri (Nan). He had already received allegiance from the Vietnamese Dtai in the Black and Red River valleys while still at Chiang Rai in the previous decade.

It was during this time that the Mongols claimed victory over Pagan, but modern theories are that the Syam-Shan actually carried out the defeat.

By 1400 AD, the alliance had broken apart and the Burmans (note - BurmaNs not Burmese) had been ousted from Ava / Mandalay regions by the Shan who now had a king on the throne in Pegu (Dtai-Tai-Syamese royalty once again) instead of a Mon Monarch as previously. Sukhothai was warring regularly with LanNa - usually allied to would-be usurpers from Chiang Rai, and Ayutthaya was ascendant but embroiled with quelling Khmer resurgence in the east, as well as pacifying (but conquering) the Malay Sultanates (nothing's changed there). It was also during this period that large numbers of Lao were brought into Issaan, and large numbers of Chinese into LanNa to expand the OTOP principle established by Mengrai as an extension of the former Mon system of specialised villages. Thus Ming porcelain fragments are found at most archaeological sites in the north.

...... best stop here before I turn this into a new book

Edited May 15, 2005 by Gaz Chiangmai

[SteveH]

Hot media story right now:

"The Prince Damrongrajanuphap Library has proposed the reintroduction of the kingdom's old name ``Siam'' for use along with Thailand to celebrate the 60th anniversary of His Majesty the King's ascension to the throne next year."

So which do you like?  Siam or Thailand?

Thailand to change name to 'Siam' - but keep 'Thailand'

New campaign to use 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

BANGKOK: -- An heir of Thailand's first interior and education minister has called for the government to alternately use 'Siam' and 'Thailand' as the offcial name of the Thai kingdom.

M.L. Panadda Disakul, the Deputy Governor of Pathum Thani Province on the outskirts of Bangkok, who is the heir of late Prince Damrong Rajanuparp, the first Thai interior and education minister, as well as the first Thai army chief,

noted that 'Siam' is a historically dignified and auspicious name, designated by King Rama IV, and it should be honourably preserved.

"Siam is an auspiciously dignified name, as it was designated by His Majesty King Rama IV, and it represents the longly-proud history of the Thai kingdom. So, it should be re-used as the official name of the Thai kingdom, alternately with Thailand", she said.

"An official campaign should be launched to promote the use of the alternate national name among Thai youths and the general public", she added.   

She proposed the idea when she met Culture Minister Uraiwan Thienthong and senior Fine Arts Department officials yesterday.

M.L. Panadda is also the head of Prince Damrong Rajanuparp Museum and Library, where Mrs. Uraiwan and the senior officials visited yesterday.

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

A previous Thai government changed the national name from 'Siam' to 'Thailand' in 1939 amid the opposition of a large number of Thais, she said.

--TNA 2005-05-14

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Foggy Bottom]

"The primary reason given for the post-WW2 name change to Thailand was that "Siam" was a name imposed by foreigners. ".

I don't think so.  I talked to a Thai academic and he told me the following.  The name was changed from Siam to Thailand in 1939 by a general.  Time and person are not insignificant. 

The general (Pibul) looked at the neighbouring countries in 1939 and envisioned a 'greater Thailand' - a land of Thai/Tai speakers.  This included Shan State (Burma), parts of Laos, parts of Vietnam and parts of Yunnan.  'Greater Thailand' in 1939......sounds similar to what a certain European nation was up to.....

Anyway, the general did not succeed with his expansion plans, but the new name became official. 

In view of the above......I prefer Siam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with the timing of the name change - the Japanese reverted to it to Siam during the occupation. It was only briefly "Thailand" before the invasion.

If you check the history books (particularly British maps of WW2 in SE Asia), you'll see that for a brief period he did get his way - parts of Laos and Malaysia ceded to the British and French by Rama V (to avoid colonisation) were awarded back to Siam/Thailand by the Japanese, as were bits north of the Nam Mae Sai in Shan State and even a few southern strips of the SipSongPanNa. At cessation of hostilities, they all had to be returned back to their pre-WW2 nations, but for a time, "Greater Thailand" went back to it's 18th-19th Century furthest borders.

.... Can't remember if they also got bits of Cambodia as well, but maybe did.

James MacCarthy - surveyor to Rama V - mapped the borders during the 1880s-90s - his book reprinted by White Lotus is a fascinating read, especially regarding how far the borders did extend at that time - way past the Plain of Jars for example.

Edited May 15, 2005 by Gaz Chiangmai

[sillyfools]

Will the idea of changing the name to siam as to include all nationalities also result in the change of name and policies from thai rak thai to siam rak siam???

[Foggy Bottom]

Interestingly, Megrai was Lawa-Dtai as the result of marriage between a Lawa King and a Shan princess from Kentung.

My written sources say the mother was Thai Lu from Sipsongpanna.

Also, Gaz, in what dialect of Chinese does /syam/ mean "beyond the mountain pass"?

Regarding 'Siam' vs 'Thailand', I think the unwritten subtext of the proposal might be that since Thailand has recently experienced an unprecedented string of misfortunes - SARS, bird flu, Southern violence and the tsunami - it is superstitiously thought that a name adjustment might put things right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Sabaijai - bringing the Thai Lu nomenclature into the discussion is a double-edged sword .... western anthropologists give the name Lu or Lue (pronounced "luhr") to a distinct group of peoples in Yunnan and Guangxi, but the Chinese use it as a semi-derogatory term for all "hill tribe" Tai peoples in those provinces, except in places like the Kunming Institute mentioned in a reply above.

In the 13th century, she would be described as Tai, not Thai, as are most of the non-Siamese ethnics distincly identifiable today - but correct Anglo-phonetic spelling should remain Dtai due to pronunciation. In writings, I use Dtai to mean the Tai prior to establishing the Tai kingdoms in Thailand, after which I use the Tai spelling, but reserve Thai for the period after the kingdom's name change - it makes it easier to follow when reading.

The Chiangmai Chronicle, translated by Wyatt, states she was Shan from Kentung/KenRung - being west of the Mehkong in that period it is more likely that she was Shan than to be one of the "lower" Lue tribes. It also explains why Mengrai despatched two major expeditions to relieve Mongol sieges of that city, although he never personally led an army against a Yuan Dynasty army - that privilege was given to his son Khram - renamed ChaiyaSongkhram after the Battle of Wieng Kum Kam in Dec 1296 - LanNa whupped Lampang's military and captured their capital.

Someone asked about the Chinese dialect for Syam - it's from the Jin Dynasty Imperial Court records (265-420 AD) regarding the peoples to the west of the mountains in the south west provinces - "a dark skinned people, the Wo-Man who we call the Syam, who live beyond the mountain passes".

(edit - dammit my keybored's gon dislecksick on me)

Edited May 15, 2005 by Gaz Chiangmai

[Jing Joe]

If I read things correctly they want to call it "Siam Thailand" or "Thailand Siam" (or a variation on that theme), the main question is, WHY bother.

To be honest, I don't give a d@mn, my wife will always be Thai and my cat Siamese 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

siamland

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaiam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Loved your humourous combination Popeye. i.e. Thai+Siam= Thaiam

Ith this becauth you also have a lisp like me, or will it juth make it eathier for us people with one? Anyone ever met a Thaiam perthon with a lisp and can you imagine their bigger challenge with English?

My Thaiam wife got the uthual Athian challenge thaying 'deleriously happy' but now juth move her two lovely eye round and round and at the thame time thay ----'very happy darling' , (but not in public)

Edited May 15, 2005 by Jing Joe

[costas]

I have an observation thats a bit relevant to the discussion..

I was in the olympics last year and watched some Thai weightlifting, when Thailand got a gold.

I was amazed to see that the Thai people when supporting their team

shout: "Thailand" and not "prathet Thai"

to the best of my knowledge, when one supports their country , they use their own language/name

we call ourselves hellas, the italians shout italia etc

i have never heard of anyone shouting their country's name in a language that will make them understood by the opponents (english shouting Inglaterra when playing in Spain etc)

are more people doing this?

cheers

costas

[expatinasia]

Checking Google, it found 5.9 million "Siam" files, but 93.5 million "Thailand" files...

[sabaijai]

Interestingly, Megrai was Lawa-Dtai as the result of marriage between a Lawa King and a Shan princess from Kentung.

My written sources say the mother was Thai Lu from Sipsongpanna.

Also, Gaz, in what dialect of Chinese does /syam/ mean "beyond the mountain pass"?

Regarding 'Siam' vs 'Thailand', I think the unwritten subtext of the proposal might be that since Thailand has recently experienced an unprecedented string of misfortunes - SARS, bird flu, Southern violence and the tsunami - it is superstitiously thought that a name adjustment might put things right.

Hi Sabaijai - bringing the Thai Lu nomenclature into the discussion is a double-edged sword .... western anthropologists give the name Lu or Lue (pronounced "luhr") to a distinct group of peoples in Yunnan and Guangxi, but the Chinese use it as a semi-derogatory term for all "hill tribe" Tai peoples in those provinces, except in places like the Kunming Institute mentioned in a reply above.

In the 13th century, she would be described as Tai, not Thai, as are most of the non-Siamese ethnics distincly identifiable today - but correct Anglo-phonetic spelling should remain Dtai due to pronunciation. In writings, I use Dtai to mean the Tai prior to establishing the Tai kingdoms in Thailand, after which I use the Tai spelling, but reserve Thai for the period after the kingdom's name change - it makes it easier to follow when reading.

The Chiangmai Chronicle, translated by Wyatt, states she was Shan from Kentung/KenRung - being west of the Mehkong in that period it is more likely that she was Shan than to be one of the "lower" Lue tribes. It also explains why Mengrai despatched two major expeditions to relieve Mongol sieges of that city, although he never personally led an army against a Yuan Dynasty army - that privilege was given to his son Khram - renamed ChaiyaSongkhram after the Battle of Wieng Kum Kam in Dec 1296 - LanNa whupped Lampang's military and captured their capital.

Someone asked about the Chinese dialect for Syam - it's from the Jin Dynasty Imperial Court records (265-420 AD) regarding the peoples to the west of the mountains in the south west provinces - "a dark skinned people, the Wo-Man who we call the Syam, who live beyond the mountain passes".

(edit - dammit my keybored's gon dislecksick on me)

Most modern sources agree that Mangrai's mother was Thai Lu (ไทลื้อ if you read Thai)

[Scott]

I don't really care what they call the country, but I have some concerns.

1. Has anyone tried to calculate what the cost will be to change everything? I think this is not a "mai pen rai" thing. It will cost a lot and there will be confusion. Needs to be thought out.

2. I have known many Thai people who change their name because of "bad luck", it is confusing. Does this mean every time things get bad, they will change their name.?

[Totster]

I don't really care what they call the country, but I have some concerns.

1.  Has anyone tried to calculate what the cost will be to change everything?  I think this is not a "mai pen rai" thing.  It will cost a lot and there will be confusion.  Needs to be thought out.

2.  I have known many Thai people who change their name because of "bad luck", it is confusing.  Does this mean every time things get bad, they will change their name.?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The way I see it, is that they don't want to change the name, but in fact want to have two official names.

totster

[gburns57au]

I have an observation thats a bit relevant to the discussion..

I was in the olympics last year and watched some Thai weightlifting, when Thailand got a gold.

I was amazed to see that the Thai people when supporting their team

shout: "Thailand" and not "prathet Thai"

to the best of my knowledge, when one supports their country , they use their own language/name

we call ourselves hellas, the italians shout italia etc

i have never heard of anyone shouting their country's name in a language that will make them understood by the opponents (english shouting Inglaterra when playing in Spain etc)

are more people doing this?

cheers

costas

I took my ex girlfriend here to see the Dockers play the Doggies.(AFL)[she is a Dockers supporter ].....and she kept yelling for them to kick straight when they shot on goal.....only trouble is she was yelling in Thai.......

Most Thais will say Thailand instead of Prathet Thai.....Prathet Thai is used mainly in writing and formal speech, or so it seems to me.

[Scott]

Yes, I understand. Like many things it isn't clear what they want to do. I guess it's a middle path thing. But no matter what, if they alternate the two names, hypenate it or change it, it is going to cost a lot of money.

There is official things that need clear lines of communication.

Sorry, but anyone in a foreign country trying to get to the Siam Embassy or the Thai Embassy or the Thai-Siam Embassy, will be confused.

The point is, the government needs to think this one out carefully.

[sabaijai]

Interestingly, Megrai was Lawa-Dtai as the result of marriage between a Lawa King and a Shan princess from Kentung.

My written sources say the mother was Thai Lu from Sipsongpanna.

Also, Gaz, in what dialect of Chinese does /syam/ mean "beyond the mountain pass"?

Regarding 'Siam' vs 'Thailand', I think the unwritten subtext of the proposal might be that since Thailand has recently experienced an unprecedented string of misfortunes - SARS, bird flu, Southern violence and the tsunami - it is superstitiously thought that a name adjustment might put things right.

Hi Sabaijai - bringing the Thai Lu nomenclature into the discussion is a double-edged sword .... western anthropologists give the name Lu or Lue (pronounced "luhr") to a distinct group of peoples in Yunnan and Guangxi, but the Chinese use it as a semi-derogatory term for all "hill tribe" Tai peoples in those provinces, except in places like the Kunming Institute mentioned in a reply above.

In the 13th century, she would be described as Tai, not Thai, as are most of the non-Siamese ethnics distincly identifiable today - but correct Anglo-phonetic spelling should remain Dtai due to pronunciation. In writings, I use Dtai to mean the Tai prior to establishing the Tai kingdoms in Thailand, after which I use the Tai spelling, but reserve Thai for the period after the kingdom's name change - it makes it easier to follow when reading.

The Chiangmai Chronicle, translated by Wyatt, states she was Shan from Kentung/KenRung - being west of the Mehkong in that period it is more likely that she was Shan than to be one of the "lower" Lue tribes. It also explains why Mengrai despatched two major expeditions to relieve Mongol sieges of that city, although he never personally led an army against a Yuan Dynasty army - that privilege was given to his son Khram - renamed ChaiyaSongkhram after the Battle of Wieng Kum Kam in Dec 1296 - LanNa whupped Lampang's military and captured their capital.

Someone asked about the Chinese dialect for Syam - it's from the Jin Dynasty Imperial Court records (265-420 AD) regarding the peoples to the west of the mountains in the south west provinces - "a dark skinned people, the Wo-Man who we call the Syam, who live beyond the mountain passes".

(edit - dammit my keybored's gon dislecksick on me)

Most modern sources agree that Mangrai's mother was Thai Lu (ä·Å×éÍ if you read Thai), not Shan and not from Kengtung or anywhere west of the Mekong. A few onlines sources that mention this:

http://www.aasianst.org/absts/1996abst/seasia/sea109.htm

http://www.chiangraiprovince.com/guide/eng/40_03.htm

http://www.chiangmai1.com/chiang_mai/sub/mangrai.shtml

http://www.chiangmai1.com/chiang_mai/sub/mangrai.shtml

Hans Penth, one of the foremost Western historians of Lanna, also states that Mangrai married into Thai Lu royalty from Chiang Rung/Sipsongpanna.

Chinese histories of the time also corroborate the fact that Mangrai married the daughter of a Tai Lu king from Chiang Rung (Jinghong), as do Tai Lu histories. Even today, the Lu in Xishuangbanna/Sipsongpanna still revere Mangrai, and in one village near Jinghong he serves an important guardian spirit.

As far as the spelling goes, I'm merely transcribing from the modern Thai, who today write ä·Å×éÍ = Thai Lu/Leu (choose whatever Roman script you prefer for the -Í× sound), or less commonly (and in imitation of Western scholars, though there's no concrete need for it) äµÅ×éÍ. I don't see any need to use historic terms no longer in use, and use of /dt/ to transcribe the unaspirated/unvoiced /t/ sound readily transcribed by RTGS as /t/ seems unwieldy.

I'm sceptical that /siam/ is related to Chinese. Certainly it's not Mandarin or Yunnanese, both of which lack an /am/ phoneme. If it were the Yunnanese who started the trend, it doesn't match up. At any rate the translated quotation you cited does not seem to suggest that the term is derived from the Chinese (unless the translated quotation is incorrect). In fact it sounds more like the Chinese were borrowing what was to them a foreign term.

It's also doubtful that during the Eastern Jin Dynasty (the Jin Dynasty was much later than the dates you cited) there were any Tai groups living west of the Mekong. The Tai diaspora had yet to begin and current theory places Tai groups of that era quite far east of the Mekong, rather in a zone extending southeastward from Guangxi to northern Vietnam.

So perhaps you mean the Jin Dynasty (1115-1234)? That would be more likely.

Another theory says /siam/ was first used by the Khmer to refer to the Siamese mercenary armies in their employ during the Angkor period, and that they simply borrowed the Sanskrit /shyam/ (golden) as much Skrt was entering the Khmer language at that time. Why golden? Could have been skin colour, but more likely because of the use of 'gold' in geographic names previous to this time, eg, U Thong Suvarnabhumi/Suwannaphum, etc.

Jit Phumisak's excellent thesis, "The History of the Words Siam, Thai, Lao and Khom," which he wrote while in prison and which I recently read for the first time, claims that the oldest usage word of "Siam " occurred in a 639 AD inscription in Cambodia.

Then of course there's the famous 12th C stone relief of Thai armies on a wall at Angkor Wat, labelled "Syam-kuk" by the Khmers. Phumisak believed "Syam-kuk" referred to Siamese from Kok River area of Chiang Rai province.

In both cases the term was transcribed directly from Sanskrit, eg, not like the modern ÂÒÁ but rather ÂÓ or ÈÂÓ. Actually in these incriptions, when recorded in Thai, the Â- simply has a dot over it, which in Sanskrit orthography creates the same sound as -Ó (the modern Thai equivalent of the dot, as represented by the tiny circle in -Ó). This strongly suggests it came from Skrt.

Burma scholar G H Luce also found the term /syam/ - transcribed directly from Sanskrit (with the dotted /y/) on around 20 different inscriptions at Bagan, which of course flourished around roughly the same time as Angkor. The oldest occurrence of /syam/ in Bagan was 1120 AD.

By the 12th C the term thus could have entered Jin Dynasty records. We do know that by the 13th C Chinese records regularly used the word "Sien" to refer to the Sukothai kingdom.

I think it's more likely the term originated in SE Asia (or possibly borrowed from Sanskrit) and was subsequently borrowed by the Chinese (and the British, etc).

[Johpa]

"it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power."

The Chinese may have been some of the early settlers in the region, But China has never controlled Thailand since Thailand became a country in its own right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I suppose that is why Thailand, A Bhuddist country, banned the Dalai Lama from visiting. Wake up and smell the roses, Thailand is only a semi-independent most southern colony of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Academics have often descrobed Thailand as having been colonized from within by an elite that based the government model on colonialism and that continues to exploit the hinterland while removing profits elsewhere. While my neighbors in Thailand eat plaa tuu khem and drink lao khao the elite drive imported cars, drink imported booze, and transfer their profits out of the country.