New campaign to use both 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

[LivinLOS]

Its one thing to wish to spend the night with a pair of Thai twins... Totally another to want to spend the night with a pair of Siamese twins...

[Foggy Bottom]

Most modern sources agree that Mangrai's mother was Thai Lu (ไทลื้อ if you read Thai)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most modern THAI sources refer to her as Thai Lu/Lue, but remembering the geographic region of her origin, it is more accurate to read the original chronicles of that region.

Remembering also to make allowances for the racial prejudice from Beijing's court records - all non-Confucian Taoist Han Chinese were "barbarians" - it takes a lot of cross reading and understanding to see between the lines and derive the true meaning at times.

Also remember there has been a lot of political interference in Thailand's writing of its own history during the last century - any "official" chronology and lineage tables are therefore subject to further scrutiny whenever any Bangkok institution has "approved" them.

Much better sources include the independant writings of Hans Penth (a professor in Chiangmai University's Social Studies Institute - he has collected, microfilmed and translated thousands of medieval palm-leaf manuscripts collected from hidden temple libraries around the country - ones that survived the literary purges of Pibulsongkhram, or David Wyatt whose apolitical translations and verifications of city chronicles remain the primary source for many modern non-thai historians, and the writings of Aroonroot Wichienkeeo (an associate translator of Wyatt's) of Chiangmai Ratchaphat Institute whose archaeological and research work is outstanding - her opinions and discoveries regarding pre-Mengrai LanNa remain the cornerstones of much later examination of the period.

If you want an example of how Bangkok interferes with the kingdom's history, buy ther Englaish-language version of "A Survey of Thai Arts & Architectural Attractions - a Manual for Tourist Guides" ISBN 974-578-765-5 by The Continuing Education Centre of Chulalongkorn University.

It makes a great read as a comic work due to the average of over a dozen historic inaccuracies on each of its 255 pages, yet it remains the official and primary training text for the kingdom's tour guides. The content has never been revised since it was first published in 1987 and is currently on the 5th or 6th edition - the only thing that changes is the foreword. Disney Studios would be proud of such a tome.

After many years of researching and discussing their history with Thais, my conclusion is that like modern younger generation Israelis, Thais regard history as a collection of stories from which they draw their national identity in order to fuel their fervour for future nationalism. Both nations have little interest in pursuing accuracy in their historical studies (the WW2 jewish holocaust being the exception that is rammed down gentile throats at every opportunity). Obviously within both nations there are exceptions, and they tend to be exceptional scholars who work harder than western counterparts - they have to, to overcome the apathy of most of their fellow nationals.

Most Thais have little interest in history regarding it as a dry and boring subject, yet they appear to love fictionalised and dramatised historical stories, they care little for accuracy of history and rarely take any interest in the broader span of history - few for example have any idea as to the importance of the Dtai alliaince that kept the Mongols out of Thailand, and barring a few incursions to Burma and Annam (former northern Vietnam), denied them all access to the coastal plains and ports of the SE Asian peninsula. That denial forced the Yuan emperors to move west into Eastern Europe instead of spreading south - a set of circumstances that had far reaching consequences due to raising European interest in the Orient.

Burma, Malaysia, French Indo-China, et al, may never have been euro-colonised if Mengrai & Co had not kept the Mongols north of the Mekong is one theory. Think about the implications for the region if the European powers had not colonised it. As westerners, we can think about such subjects and propose alternative histories based upon it. How many locals do you know who either could, or would be willing, to do so. That is one result of Bankok's agenda in history rewriting and their tuition methods. Is it then any wonder that foreign historians, studying the local past, become so frustrated and strident about their subject?

Gaz

[Martin]

Quote:

......Obviously within both nations there are exceptions, and they tend to be exceptional scholars who work harder than western counterparts - they have to, to overcome the apathy of most of their fellow nationals.......

.........Most Thais have little interest in history regarding it as a dry and boring subject, ..........

Burma, Malaysia, French Indo-China, et al, may never have been euro-colonised if Mengrai & Co had not kept the Mongols north of the Mekong is one theory. Think about the implications for the region if the European powers had not colonised it. As westerners, we can think about such subjects and propose alternative histories based upon it. How many locals do you know who either could, or would be willing, to do so. That is one result of Bankok's agenda in history rewriting and their tuition methods. Is it then any wonder that foreign historians, studying the local past, become so frustrated and strident about their subject?

Gaz

Could it all be the effect of climate? Preparing to survive the coming harsh winter must have made 'farang' people focussed (even aggressive) and forced them to be more interested in hard facts than in pleasant fables.

I have noticed that present-day 'farangs' who have happened to come out to the sub-tropics are often critical of the Thais for 'ambling, rather than getting a move on'. But, in this climate, it makes a lot of sense to glide along in superficiality.

Once we get to the stage where we can no longer afford to burn the diminishing reserves of oil to make electricity to run air-conditioning, even 'farangs' in Thailand will see the sense in taking the easy path. And won't there be a lot of European 'farangs' wanting to come to Thailand, when they can't afford winter heating in the northern latitudes???

[Limbo]

Hi Jaibelle - thanks for the translation - in English exactly the same proverb exists: "When in Rome, do as the Romans..."

"When elsewhere, do as they do elsewhere..."

I allways mix it up: Was it Ambrosius who told Gregorius or Gregorius Ambrosius?

One was Pope and the other was going on a field-trip to convert northern Europeans to Catholicism. About 550 or 1100 BE?

Thanks Gazchiangmai for your analysis.

[Limbo]

LaoPo[/color]

I come from the Netherlands or Holland, and I'm a DUTCH

Don't want to nitpick, but you're not A Dutch. You're Dutch, or perhaps a Dutch person. The word "Dutch" can be a noun used to refer to the Dutch people, but in those cases it would refer to the Dutch people as a whole.

Cheers, Rob

The ancient Thai (Ayutthayan or Siamese) name for Holland and the Dutch was 'Wilanda'.

The Dutch trade-company "the 'Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie' founded a trade post in Ayutthaya in 1608 which is in the process of being restaurated after the visit of Her Majesty Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands and her son HRH Crown-Prince Alexander last year.

The Ayutthayans choose the first name, 'verenigde', as the Thai still prefer to use first names.

Ask a Thai person to pronounce 'verenigde' and he or she will come up with something like 'wilanda'.

Now 'Wilanda' is the name of the Dutch-Thai cultural society in Thailand.

For more information you can look under expat-communities and clubs in this forum or send an email ([email protected]).

At your service!

[sabaijai]

Most modern sources agree that Mangrai's mother was Thai Lu (ไทลื้อ if you read Thai)

Most modern THAI sources refer to her as Thai Lu/Lue, but remembering the geographic region of her origin, it is more accurate to read the original chronicles of that region.

Remembering also to make allowances for the racial prejudice from Beijing's court records - all non-Confucian Taoist Han Chinese were "barbarians" - it takes a lot of cross reading and understanding to see between the lines and derive the true meaning at times.

Also remember there has been a lot of political interference in Thailand's writing of its own history during the last century - any "official" chronology and lineage tables are therefore subject to further scrutiny whenever any Bangkok institution has "approved" them.

Much better sources include the independant writings of Hans Penth (a professor in Chiangmai University's Social Studies Institute - he has collected, microfilmed and translated thousands of medieval palm-leaf manuscripts collected from hidden temple libraries around the country - ones that survived the literary purges of Pibulsongkhram, or David Wyatt whose apolitical translations and verifications of city chronicles remain the primary source for many modern non-thai historians, and the writings of Aroonroot Wichienkeeo (an associate translator of Wyatt's) of Chiangmai Ratchaphat Institute whose archaeological and research work is outstanding - her opinions and discoveries regarding pre-Mengrai LanNa remain the cornerstones of much later examination of the period.

If you want an example of how Bangkok interferes with the kingdom's history, buy ther Englaish-language version of "A Survey of Thai Arts & Architectural Attractions - a Manual for Tourist Guides" ISBN 974-578-765-5 by The Continuing Education Centre of Chulalongkorn University.

It makes a great read as a comic work due to the average of over a dozen historic inaccuracies on each of its 255 pages, yet it remains the official and primary training text for the kingdom's tour guides. The content has never been revised since it was first published in 1987 and is currently on the 5th or 6th edition - the only thing that changes is the foreword. Disney Studios would be proud of such a tome.

After many years of researching and discussing their history with Thais, my conclusion is that like modern younger generation Israelis, Thais regard history as a collection of stories from which they draw their national identity in order to fuel their fervour for future nationalism. Both nations have little interest in pursuing accuracy in their historical studies (the WW2 jewish holocaust being the exception that is rammed down gentile throats at every opportunity). Obviously within both nations there are exceptions, and they tend to be exceptional scholars who work harder than western counterparts - they have to, to overcome the apathy of most of their fellow nationals.

Most Thais have little interest in history regarding it as a dry and boring subject, yet they appear to love fictionalised and dramatised historical stories, they care little for accuracy of history and rarely take any interest in the broader span of history - few for example have any idea as to the importance of the Dtai alliaince that kept the Mongols out of Thailand, and barring a few incursions to Burma and Annam (former northern Vietnam), denied them all access to the coastal plains and ports of the SE Asian peninsula. That denial forced the Yuan emperors to move west into Eastern Europe instead of spreading south - a set of circumstances that had far reaching consequences due to raising European interest in the Orient.

Burma, Malaysia, French Indo-China, et al, may never have been euro-colonised if Mengrai & Co had not kept the Mongols north of the Mekong is one theory. Think about the implications for the region if the European powers had not colonised it. As westerners, we can think about such subjects and propose alternative histories based upon it. How many locals do you know who either could, or would be willing, to do so. That is one result of Bankok's agenda in history rewriting and their tuition methods. Is it then any wonder that foreign historians, studying the local past, become so frustrated and strident about their subject?

Gaz

I agree, many Thais regard history as a series of tales, which is why the Chiangmai Chronicles aren't considered to be 100% accurate. Penth himself says his research strongly suggests that Mangrai's mother was Tai Lu, and Tai Lu chronicles corroborate.

Most modern THAI sources refer to her as Thai Lu/Lue, but remembering the geographic region of her origin, it is more accurate to read the original chronicles of that region.

Yes, which is why the Tai Lu chronicles from Sipsongpanna are important in nailing down the history.

I also can't see why the Thais (whether from BKK or Chiang Mai) would want to cook the story by exchanging a Tai Yai (Shan) for a Tai Lu or vice versa. It shouldn't make any difference to 'modern' Thais whether Mangrai's mother was Tai Lu or Tai Yai. (If they did want to change the facts to fit a nationalist agenda, they'd certainly deny Mangrai's father's Lawa heritage, yet they don't.)

I don't think Bangkok has much to do with it, as most official histories of Thailand don't go into detail regarding Mangrai's heritage. In fact most Thais aren't aware that Mangrai was anything other than 'Thai', plain and simple. It's Chiang Mai scholars who know the most about the history of Chiang Mai, and the ones I know point to the Tai Lu connection.