Any One Been To Burma?

[ayakiawe]

Hi any and all information about getting to Burma would be appriciated. I know nothing as of yet about the place. We will start from Bangkok.

It will be 2 men holding USA passports and would like to go on a low budget trip for 30 days.

We like natural places and natural food/ fruits as well and if there is a nice snorkeling place that would be great too.

OK all ears let me know what cha think?

[SeaVisionBurma]

Hi

I have already sent you PM. Some basic info for you there.

Note that monsoon has commenced so weather for snorkelling wont be guaranteed for the next few months.

Good luck

SVB

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm sounding like the advice in the tour guide, "Let's Go Thailand" but - you can't travel that much in Mayanmar without contributing a substantial amount of your own money to one of the most despotic governments in the world. Would you have visited Germany in 1939 if you'd known what the Nazis were doing, and that your money went to them? That's almost a fair analogy.

Up to you.

[ayakiawe]

Hey I don’t know all the facts for sure but I see Thailand as having a few problems here as well!

At least I hear in Burma there are no KFCs, Burger Kings and Mc Donalds etc allowed.

I think those types of places and many more are destroying Thailand from the inside out and much more dangerous if you ask me regarding the general health of the population.

Also such things as the cell phone microwave signals and other toxic transmitters (not to mention all the toxic sprays and poisons which Thais liberally cover this country with day in and day out) which are blasting us all, 24 /7, theses are quite upsetting to me too.

/ insensative comment removed

So what about you, are you supporting such places and projects here in Thailand, directly or indirectly?

Edited May 25, 2005 by tukyleith

[udon]

/post deleted after removing previous insensative comment.

Edited May 25, 2005 by tukyleith

[HarryHacker]

/post deleted after removing previous insensative comment.

Edited May 25, 2005 by tukyleith

[Steve2UK]

At least I hear in Burma there are no KFCs, Burger Kings and Mc Donalds etc allowed.

I think those types of places and many more are destroying Thailand from the inside out and much more dangerous if you ask me regarding the general health of the population.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the relatives of those who spent their last night in a Myanmar police cell or army barracks might disagree with you. While you're there, perhaps you'd like to ask them? Let us know - that'll be after the Myanmar authorities release you from detention following your contact with "dissidents".

Have a great trip!

[Rinrada]

Bit of Information re Burma.....

Companies who deal with or have pulled out of Burma have been cat.as CLEAN and DIRTY....

In response to calls from Burma’s democracy movement, the Burma Campaign UK and other campaign groups around the World have been pressuring companies to sever business ties with Burma

This is The Clean list in full with a few comments from their CEOs....

I have not listed the DIRTY outfits since why give them any little bit of merit by mentioning them..but some of your old favs are on it.....

so.....

This list names companies that have either pulled out of Burma, or made a principled decision not to become involved in Burma.

This list it not fully comprehensive, but provides a useful indication of how many companies have withdrawn, and their reasons for doing so.

Adidas

Adidas-Salomon is very concerned about the human rights record of the military regime in Burma/Myanmar. Consequently we stopped sourcing products from there in 1999…none of our products have been made there since”.

Anheuser-Busch International Inc, Budweiser

Ann Summers

“We do not currently buy direct from Burma, …., it would not be our intention to go down this route….”

Apple Computer

Arcadia Group plc

“…We do support a stand against Burma, as you know, through our action to cease sourcing from there”.

Bank of Nova Scotia

BHS (British Home Stores)

“Having reviewed the BHS supply chain, I can confirm that there were historical ties with a supplier in Burma. This link is now terminated and there will be no further business conducted within Burma.”

BP

"We have no business activity in Burma nor do we have plans to invest in that country."

Bugbog.com

Burton (UK)

The Burton Group announced on 3 July that it would end its partnership with a military-controlled clothing factory in Burma by the end of 1997, saying "This decision has been taken following a review of customer opinion towards merchandise sourced from Burma.”

Carlsberg

Danish beer maker Carlsberg responded to threats of a boycott or industrial action and dropped its plans to invest in a new brewery in Burma. It said public opinion and media attention on human rights abuses in Burma prompted their decision.

Clarks

“We do not knowingly purchase products produced in Burma and until the current situation is satisfactorily resolved we do no intend to purchase items produced there.”

Ernst & Young

“I would also add that I share your disgust with the regime in Burma and applaud your efforts and those of other organisations in helping stimulate international pressure for change.” Nick Land, Chairman.

Explore Worldwide, Ltd

Explorers Tours

Federated Stores

Leading U.S. retailer Federated Stores, owner of Bloomingdale's and Macy's joined the Burma boycott and agreed to quit selling apparel made in Burma, stating that "what is going on there is a violation of the philosophy and spirit of our vendor supplier code of conduct."

Fenwick

Fila

Foster's

Gecko Travel

We are at present refraining from conducting tours in burma, considering her political Regime to be unsuitable for organised tourism. We do not wish to be seen to legitimise or contribute financially towards the regime.

(Not to be confused with Gecko’s Adventures, who features on the ‘Dirty List’ for organising tours to Burma.)

Grattan plc

“…We have an unequivocal position in respect of goods manufactured in Burma, in that we do not stock them.”

H&M

“H&M have a policy which started over 5 years ago not to buy anything from Burma.”

Heineken

World's second largest brewer, Heineken announced the withdrawal of its $ 30 million investment in Burma. It said opinion and recent media attention on human rights abuses in Burma prompted their decision.

Hewlett-Packard

Himalayan Kingdoms Ltd

“We will not start running treks or tours to Burma until we have a clear statement from Aung San Suu Kyi, or some dramatic improvement occurs to the political situation.”

IBM

IKEA

The IKEA group decided in May 1999 not to conduct business in Burma, stating that it is IKEA’s “…position to destroy any products from Burma at our warehouse locations.”

Interbrew (Labatt's)

Jaegar

“We have never sourced any product from Burma and we have no plans to in the future”.

Jansport

“In conjunction with the manufacturing of our products, it has been and will continue to be JanSport policy to honour the issue of human rights here and abroad ….We are specifically concerned about factories in Myanmar, formerly known as Burma. Let me assure you, JanSport unequivocally forbids the production of any of its merchandise or the conduct of business on its behalf in Myanmar”.

John Lewis

J Sainsbury plc

‘Sainsbury’s do not currently source any products from Burma”.

Kookai

"It is not ethical for us to produce our goods from Burma, We took the issue up with our 'mother' company in Paris. They in turn have considered the situation and have terminated the production from Burma." Jan 2003

Kuoni

La Redoute

" We share your concern and dismay about the situation in Burma, particularly in the light of recent events including the arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi. I’m pleased to inform you that this concern led us to decide officially in 2002 to cease all sourcing in Burma."

Levi Strauss Inc

"It is not possible to do business in [burma] without directly supporting the military government and its pervasive violations of human rights." --Levi-Strauss & Co. upon withdrawing from Burma.

Littlewoods

"Littlewoods Home Shopping can confirm that its ethical stance is not to source any product from Burma. All of Littlewoods Home Shopping product teams, sourcing department and country offices are aware of this and strictly adhere to this policy."

Liz Claiborne

London Fog

Marks and Spencer

" We have an internal policy of not buying from this region and that policy is clearly communicated to all our direct suppliers and our buying teams."

Monsoon

“Monsoon Accessorize Ltd does not source any products from Burma”

Moon Handbooks/Avalon Travel Publishing

"..any future editions of Moon Handbooks: Southeast Asia will not include any coverage of Burma, unless and until there is significant regime change that warrants a return to responsible tourism."

Motorola

New Look

“We at New Look take ethical issues seriously and have a policy not to knowingly source any of our products from Burma”.

Nomadic Thoughts

"This is to confirm that Nomadic Thoughts is regrettably not sending clients

to Burma. Although Nomadic Thoughts regards Burma as one of Asia's most exciting and

spectacular tourist destinations the company has decided not to send clients

in direct response to The National League of Democracy's request (led by Daw

Aung San Suu Kyi) that international tourists do not visit Burma."

Northwest Airline

Oracle Corp.

Oshkosh B' Gosh Inc

Pepsi-Cola

"Based on our assessment of the spirit of current U.S. government foreign policy, we are completing our total disengagement from the Burmese market. Accordingly, we have severed all relationships with our former franchise bottler, effective January 15, 1997.”

Polo Ralph Lauren Company

PricewaterhouseCoopers

Reebok

"We do not feel that we can adequately apply our human rights standards and do business in Burma."

River Islands

“We continue not to source from Burma.”

Rough Guides

“Rough Guides is a publisher committed to the freedom of individuals to travel and live in liberty: our guidebooks are written with the aim of empowering readers as they travel by providing practical information and carefully researched background on every aspect of the destination. There are many parts of the world where human rights are suppressed but where Rough Guides feel justified in guiding and informing travellers to the best of our ability, in the belief that well-informed travellers can bring positive economic benefits and assist in the spread of ideas in both directions.

There are, however, occasional instances where any benefits are overshadowed by the nature of the social and political climate. Apartheid South Africa was an example. Burma, with its brutal dictatorship, state control of the economy and forced labour used to build its tourist infrastructure, is another. As long as the military regime remains in power and Aung San Suu Kyi – leader of the democratically elected National League for Democracy - requests that tourists do not visit, Rough Guides will not publish a guide to the country.”

Royal Brunei Airlines

Sarah Lee

Seagram Company Limited

Triumph International

Walt Disney

Woolworths

"It has been our policy for a number of years not to source from Burma due to the serious human rights issues reported in that country. All our buyers and sourcing team are fully aware of this."

World Spirit Travel

"Democratically elected leader and Nobel Peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi has made it clear that tourism only further prolongs Burma's military dictatorship. World Spirit supports her invocation: 'not to travel to Burma...yet...'.

WPP

What will happen in the future.....????....lets see

[Bizz]

/comment removed. Please use the function to attract moderators attention, Thanks.

This comment should be viewed by mods the only has caused me some distaste.

Edited May 25, 2005 by tukyleith

[ayakiawe]

The "only" was referring to the fact that the toxic industries in Thailand will end up killing far more people than this number and very quickly too.

Is this clear?

I think I expressed my personal views which you might not agree with but possibly don’t have all the facts quite straight.

Maybe you could open your eyes to a bigger picture of what is happening around you?

Time will tell though and I would bet I am right on the money too.

Name calling should not be allowed here and think the Mods are not acting responsible on this matter!

[apetley]

People have a choice as to whether they chew on their big mac, chicken royale or flame burger &lt;deleted&gt;.

6 million Jews in Poland(alone) had no choice whatsoever as they inhaled ZyklonB.

What some people object to is a totally irrelevant, innacurate and distasteful analogy.

[Pie Boy]

Ayakiawe, the vast majority of posters on this forum are sound, well balanced individuals who share their knowledge and experiances of both the good and the bad side of Thailand and other countries for the benefit of others.

Whilst i'm sure you are of good intentions I would support my fellow members views here and suggest your references were poor and distasteful.

Why don't you try Laos instead ? Just a thought.

[ayakiawe]

Thanks but to tell you the truth I am a big fan of the King of Thailand and think he is the best King that I know of.

I follow his advice and share his enthusiasm about sustainable living and appropriate technology.

So my mission is to help save Thailand in this lifetime though I would not be opposed to maybe those in Laos who will benefit as well?

I hope you will consider this balanced and level headed thinking one day as well.

Here is to the best of you and Thailand.

[udon]

Thanks but to tell you the truth I am a big fan of the King of Thailand and think he is the best King that I know of.I follow his advice and share his enthusiasm about sustainable living and appropriate technology.

So my mission is to help save Thailand in this lifetime though I would not be opposed to maybe those in Laos who will benefit as well?

I hope you will consider this balanced and level headed thinking one day as well.

Here is to the best of   you and Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Errrm, how many kings do you know?

You truly seem as thick as a Teak to get the message here. Chok dee pal

[maerim]

The "only" was referring to the fact that the toxic industries in Thailand will end up killing far more people than this number and very quickly too.

Is this clear?

Yes, as clear as mud.

As an authority on toxic chemicals and waste would you please enlighten the unwashed masses as to where and when over five million Thais are, were or will be bumped off by their employers.

What is the time scale of this mass murder? Or is it a secret that only you and a few more "in the know" know about?

[SeaVisionBurma]

right, this has gone downhill far enough, I'm not even entering the above debate... why don't you all slug it out on PM?

I'm sounding like the advice in the tour guide, "Let's Go Thailand" but - you can't travel that much in Mayanmar without contributing a substantial amount of your own money to one of the most despotic governments in the world. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PeaceBlondie -

you can travel a great deal without your money going to despots, if you are sensible (doesnt matter, they change the despots every 5 minutes here anyhow)

Country has opened up a great deal within recent times, but most outside media and do-gooders never visit here and wouldn't know.

I think the relatives of those who spent their last night in a Myanmar police cell or army barracks might disagree with you. While you're there, perhaps you'd like to ask them? Let us know - that'll be after the Myanmar authorities release you from detention following your contact with "dissidents".

Have a great trip!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve2UK - it's not all rosey here, but that's a bit much isn't it? I have a close friend in the situation you describe above, but it's easy to make comments like that from outside the country.

Travel in Myanmar is possible, and can be an enlightening experience if approached with an open mind and some sensitivity to daily life.

Flame me for anything else, but not for trying to give advice on travel here short of me giving you the wrong bus company number or something.....

peace!

[ayakiawe]

SeaVisionBurma Thanks for the info!

Finally......... one of those posters I was promised who is on this forum and is of sound mind, a well balanced individual and who shares their knowledge and experiences of both the good and the bad side of Thailand and other countries for the benefit of others.

Edited May 18, 2005 by ayakiawe

[PeaceBlondie]

SeaVisionBurma, I stand ready to be corrected. How could two tourists spend about a month in Myanmar without spending lots of money that would go to the junta of generals and colonels? Which tourist complexes have not been constructed by virtual slave labor? Which tourist places enjoy freedom of speech, freedom of access and communication? Which tourist places can "The Lady" freely visit? How do you know the money doesn't end up elsewhere? These are just questions that I don't know the answer to.

4 or 5 million? The generally accepted figure is six million Jews and six million Gentiles, plus maybe a hundred million combatants and non-combatants who died in the war that Hitler's Third Reich started. More than an exaggeration; more like twice the entire population of Thailand.

Apples and oranges - the Kingdom of Thailand is adopting some Western lifestyles that are damaging to the future of the country. But there is a Constitution which is being followed; Mr. Thaksin is allowed to carry out his democratically elected office, while The Lady who won the election in Myanmar is not allowed to leave her home on the shore of Lake Inya in Yangon. The contrasts go on and on.

[SeaVisionBurma]

SeaVisionBurma, I stand ready to be corrected.  How could two tourists spend about a month in Myanmar without spending lots of money that would go to the junta of generals and colonels?  Which tourist complexes have not been constructed by virtual slave labor?  Which tourist places enjoy freedom of speech, freedom of access and communication?  Which tourist places can "The Lady" freely visit?  How do you know the money doesn't end up elsewhere?  These are just questions that I don't know the answer to.

4 or 5 million?  The generally accepted figure is six million Jews and six million Gentiles, plus maybe a hundred million combatants and non-combatants who died in the war that Hitler's Third Reich started.  More than an exaggeration; more like twice the entire population of Thailand.

Apples and oranges - the Kingdom of Thailand is adopting some Western lifestyles that are damaging to the future of the country.  But there is a Constitution which is being followed; Mr. Thaksin is allowed to carry out his democratically elected office, while The Lady who won the election in Myanmar is not allowed to leave her home on the shore of Lake Inya in Yangon.  The contrasts go on and on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mate, as I said I won't enter the unrelated debate (ie unrelated to the original topic) so I am not going anywhere near your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs with a 10 foot pole. Nothing to do with me.

As for the rest, I am just giving one small guy's opinion on the tourist debate, from someone who is inside the country fulltime and travels within it -

The question about which tourist complexes have not been built by slave labour (actually you said virtual slave labour, is that an online thing?) - the country has changed a lot recently - there is a lot of industry here which does not rely on chain gangs - normal everyday people can get a job with a private company and do an honest day's work if they wish - building tourist 'complexes' is included.

The Lady obviously cant visit any of them under her current situation, lets be realistic - is this question rhetorical??

There are a bunch of private businesses here running tourist operations. It is not a foregone conclusion that money spent on tourism is money pissed in to the pockets of generals. Far from it.

What's the point of debating this if you have already made up your mind? (yes, you said you stand ready to be corrected, but TBH I can't see it from your questions)

How do you know the money doesn't end up elsewhere?

Again, let's be realistic. How about I ask you: How do you know the money goes to the generals and colonels you speak of? You speak as if it is all black and white - it isn't. And this is not the point. Tourists can come here, and they can spend money in such a way as to know they are putting money into a local economy made up of local people.

Book a ticket and come and have a look.

peace (x2)

[ayakiawe]

thanks I just might do that and see for myself!

[yeti]

Went Myanmar too long ago (3 years) to give practical advices, so I will just tell you this : it was one of my best travel experiences, beautiful country, nice people, beautiful encounters. Loved it.

And I agree with SVB, there are ways of travelling which won't give you the impression of helping generals, but of helping the creation of a middleclass (which can make things worst for poor people because of the inflation, but that's the problem with tourism everywhere).

Concerning the idea of visiting Laos instead, well Laos is not exactly a democracy, but rather a communist dictature, so I don't really understand why it would be better than Burma...

[SeaVisionBurma]

but of helping the creation of a middleclass

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

funny, yeti - but I had typed 'emerging middle class' in my reply above, but hit the backspace button and deleted the phrase, for fear it would be pounced upon as some negative thing against the poor.

It's true there is an emerging middle class - very different to when I first arrived here.

For all the negatives of the country (ie I am being open minded), there are a lot of positives to see, as you alluded to. I am glad that some folks can come and judge for themselves.......

life goes on

[yeti]

When I went there 3 years ago, it was fairly popular, nothing like Thailand, but we were never alone in any tourist place (except some temples in Bagan which are not visited everyday).

And a middle class (I don't see anything negative in this) was emerging from tourists revenues, people having a guesthouse or working in hotels could really improve the life of all their families.

And I really think that I helped the family of this guy who took me on the Inle lake: waiting 2 hours for the end of the rain in his hut (dunno any english word to better represent the place where they lived) gave me a small but powerful insight of the life of people who NEED external money.

From what I've seen, I guess that, if after recent bombings, tourists stop going to Myanmar, population will be poorer than now, and it won't change a lot for generals who will still get their money from petrol, tek and drugs traficking, etc.

I truly believe that responsible tourists can help to open up this country and improve things there. After all, years of embargo didn't do any good...

Edited May 18, 2005 by yeti

[otherstuff1957]

I was just chatting with a friend who had spent several months traveling though SE Asia, including Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Malaysia and Indonesia. His favorite country? Burma! He claimed that the people there were even friendlier than Thais.

While I agree that large companies should not help prop up a corrupt regime by investing there, I don't see the harm in renting a room in a small guesthouse or eating at a family owned restaurant. We all know that a backpacker or a budget tourist puts far more money directly into local economies than a wealthy tourist who always stays at 4 or 5 star hotels & eats at expensive restaurants.

Good luck with your trip, and try not to put your foot in your mouth over there too!

[Pie Boy]

SeaVisionBurma Thanks for the info! 

Finally......... one of those posters I was promised who is on this forum and is of sound mind, a well balanced individual and who shares their knowledge and experiences of both the good and the bad side of Thailand and other countries for the benefit of others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[chownah]

Thanks but to tell you the truth I am a big fan of the King of Thailand and think he is the best King that I know of.

I follow his advice and share his enthusiasm about sustainable living and appropriate technology.

So my mission is to help save Thailand in this lifetime though I would not be opposed to maybe those in Laos who will benefit as well?

I hope you will consider this balanced and level headed thinking one day as well.

Here is to the best of   you and Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From your post I know that you want to show respect for His Majesty the King and I request that you use the proper form of address for him. It is also proper to abbreviate it to "HM The King". Acatually I'm not sure if the abbreviation is correct. Can someone let us know?

Edited May 19, 2005 by chownah

[Jai Dee]

Good luck with your trip...

Don't bother taking your mobile telephone, even if it has global roaming... no coverage in Myanmar.

I've travelled through several times in the past few years, and I've always found the people pleasant and friendly.

The women are also very easy on the eye and much taller than Thais...

BTW chownah, HM the King is a widely accepted and understood term both in the tabloids and this Forum.

[meadish_sweetball]

Fully agree with Yeti. I support democracy as a system, but like has been said : What good has the embargo done the average Burmese person living NOW?

The fact that the country is being run by dictators should not by itself be a deterrent to visiting, if you make sure you try to inform yourself of the situation as well as you can, and try to support the local economy and the average Joe Bloke while you are there.

The same thing goes for the embargo against Iraq that killed thousands of innocent children. Excuse my language, but it is a piss-poor tactic if you wish for any kind of positive development to occur in a country.

Think about it. What sacrifices are you making for their revolution? WHO suffers from the embargo? Do you think the generals and the present power elite suffer economically from it? No, most likely not. The poorest suffer the most.

Also, a likely outcome of the junta stepping down is a bloody civil war and struggle for land and power by the many ethnic groups that make up the country. Former Yugoslavia might give some hints of what may happen.

Edited May 19, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[sriracha john]

The "only" was referring to the fact that the toxic industries in Thailand will end up killing far more people than this number and very quickly too.

Is this clear?

I think I expressed my personal views which you might not agree with but possibly don’t have all the facts quite straight.

Maybe you could open your eyes to a bigger picture of what is happening around you?

Time will tell though and I would bet I am right on the money too.

Name calling should not be allowed here and think the Mods are not acting responsible on this matter!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is currently a USA State Dept. warning all Americans delay ALL

non-essential travel to Burma.

[SeaVisionBurma]

There is currently a USA State Dept. warning all Americans delay ALL

non-essential travel to Burma.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, to put things in to perspective, there are currently USA State Dept warnings (and also from other countries, eg Australia's DFAT) to avoid non-essential travel to a LOT of different countries, for a LOT of reasons.

The warnings should be read with some view of common sense, western governments would be negligent NOT to post some kind of warning for certain countries, no matter how small the perceived risks.

You could possibly put this in to perspective by stating WHY Americans are warned to delay non-essential travel to Myanmar/Burma. ie for what specific reasons? the recent bombs? bandits on the border? malaria? poor quality in-flight food on the national airline??