Unfair Dismissal And Religion

[Austeyr]

I have worked for an American firm in northern Thailand for the past 2 years. They are a Christian business that does work for both religious and non religious groups. When i was hired 2 years ago it was a well known fact that i was not religious. Basically they have introduced bible study meetings every Monday morning for 1.5 hours. When i informed my boss i am not religious and will not attend these meetings he said either i go or i will be fired. I mentioned how this is illegal in America his retort was that this is Thailand and not America and although it is a bible study they are also lessons on how to live life and do well at work. is this legal?

[gotlost]

Like he said this is Thailand not America. That's an excellent reason not work for a NGO.

[Austeyr]

Yes i realize this is Thailand, my question relates to labor laws. Is there no law in Thailand regarding discrimination based on religious backgrounds?

[gotlost]

Yes i realize this is Thailand, my question relates to labor laws. Is there no law in Thailand regarding discrimination based on religious backgrounds?

You can try but I don't think you will get past 1st base with this one in Thailand. You said this company is from the states if so this is where you can hang them. I thank that NLRB would love this one.

[toptuan]

You're barking up the wrong tree. Thailand is not a land of laws. It is a land of power, money, and connections. Whoever has the most of the latter three will win, in any case. Christian or not.

Incidentally, these folks are violating their own code, as conversion by force (e.g. the Crusades, The Inquisition, your situation) violates Jesus' principle of individual choice and free will. It's clearly found throughout His teaching. Shame on these charlatans, who like many other so-called Christian groups (the Catholic Church, Protestants of Northern Ireland, the Mormons, Pat Robertson, etc.) choose to ignore this clear teaching when it runs cross-purposes to themselves.

[keeniau96]

You're barking up the wrong tree. Thailand is not a land of laws. It is a land of power, money, and connections. Whoever has the most of the latter three will win, in any case. Christian or not.

Incidentally, these folks are violating their own code, as conversion by force (e.g. the Crusades, The Inquisition, your situation) violates Jesus' principle of individual choice and free will. It's clearly found throughout His teaching. Shame on these charlatans, who like many other so-called Christian groups (the Catholic Church, Protestants of Northern Ireland, the Mormons, Pat Robertson, etc.) choose to ignore this clear teaching when it runs cross-purposes to themselves.

Well said, indeed.

[singa-traz]

If you need to bring them to court, you have all chances to win.

Thailand Labour Law is pro-employee.

At a minimum, you will get your 3 months severance pay (working more than 1 year and less than 3 years).

Firing people in Thailand is not an easy task (for those who have not done it before), there are well defined procedures to follow.

Good luck!

[Nio]

If they are a US company registered under the Thai America Treaty, you need to file a complaint in the USA.

Just because the company is based in Thailand, companies under the Thai America treaty are still governed the same as in the USA. I feel it will do you no good to file in Thailand. The cost to get a lawyer and make it right will outweigh any benefit you get.

But realistically, this is Thailand.

You have an opportunity to live and work here.

Nothing here is perfect.

If you decide that you cannot attend bible study and you get canned, that is a tough price to pay for your beliefs.

Sometimes in Thailand things are dead wrong but we have to suck it up if we want to remain here.

Realizing this is not America, anything legal with take lots of time and money.

However, sometimes it's pricinciple and I would still make an effort to go after them in the USA.

[Carib]

Sounds like a real " christian" bunch.

Preaching but not enforcing..love theigh neigb....

This is exactly why I despise these biblethumpers, because they live in their own world, and using religion as an excuse to, in this case, fire someone.

[Austeyr]

Thanks everyone for your reply. Although we do chose to live in Thailand that does not mean i also chose to throw out my self respect and my rights to freedom of choice. My soul is not for sale.

[lannarebirth]

Did the company put pressure on you or imply that you need convert to Christianity if you were to continue working there? Could your "bible study" be construed by the company as some type of training for the work you were engaged in or to familiarize you with the group you are doing business with? I agree it's highly onorthodox and wouldn't fly in any western country, but you could make an argument (perhaps a poor one), that it isn't much different than studying Machiavelli or Sun Tzu as an approach to doing business. As an example, could one successfully market to Islamic organizations without some understanding of Shariah Law?

Edited March 1, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Xangsamhua]

The problem here is that it was not made clear to you (the OP) when you were employed (either by written or oral contract) that participation in these activities would be required. If it was and you accepted this, then now it is you, the employee, who is in breach of contract.

I have heard of cases where people say they were not informed of the requirement to be, e.g., a member of the Church running an NGO, in order to have their term of appointment extended, or be appointed to certain positions, etc, but we don't know who to believe in those cases unless we can see the contract and terms of employment.

I don't know about the laws in the US, but in Australia and the UK, it is lawful for a Church to discriminate in favour of its own members when employing people for Church-sponsored organisations. There have been attempts by secularist lobbies to change this, but so far unsuccessfully.

If the OP's boss has without prior notification decided to make bible study a condition for continuing employment, I would think he's ignorant of Labour Laws in Thailand and just assumes that, in the paternalistic culture of Thai workplaces, all the looknong will just fall into line. If they don't, that would be seen by the employer as disloyalty, but the Labour Department may well have a different view.

[JusMe]

Another option, as long as it's supposed to be bible study rather than services, is to know something about it and at every session, ask embarrassing questions. Such as pointing out contradictions or illogicalities or absurdities, and asking for explanations of them.

Enough of that and they might even ask you to stay away from their bible sessions.

[nakachalet]

Thanks everyone for your reply. Although we do chose to live in Thailand that does not mean i also chose to throw out my self respect and my rights to freedom of choice. My soul is not for sale.

it appears to me that your self-image and/or self-esteem have been injurious along the way somewhere....

while having taken your self respect, your rights and your freedom of choice, especially your soul which is also not for sale as you said it.... into your major considerations, my question to your inner self is....

why do you want to so persistently remain in the place where you feel you do not fit in because of differences in your belief....?

if that is a christian organization, i believe they do have as much rights as you do.... to practise what they believe is the proper and correct way of living....

and if such organization feels that it needs to practise and train its employee in various different ways that it deems necessary and appropriate.... in order to carry out its goals, objectives and responsibilities.... the entity has such inherent rights....

the obvious predicament is.... the ball is in your court.... follow the standards or find a happier and better place where you feel more relaxed and comfortable to lead a life to your liking.... without being injurious to others' rights and wellbeings....

you do have such inherent rights as well.... whether you are in the pacificrims or the almighty u.s. of a....

i am certain.... that christian training ground and organization will respect your personal rights to choose and to live a more relaxed life.... because genuine christians practise both the love for GOD as well as the love for brothers and sisters.... all tied into one living entity....

if you like.... stay as long as you can.... or give them proper notice.... then sayonara....

from my limited experiences it is much more uplifting and relaxing to live and work in a religious surrounding.... than a secular environ.... where everything goes.... with or without purpose and intention....

SEARCH YOUR OWN SOUL and let us know, if you like,.... whichever way go thou austeyr?

SHALOM....

[kuffki]

You could always play the game little dirty as they did(as per your posting)

When you contact Thai Lawyer, tell them that you are Buddhist and hence why you do not want to go to bible study's because you feel this is to force you to convert.

I have a feeling any judge in Thailand will rule in your favor, or any Thai union will back you up. Worth a try if you can be bothered.

PS. Just ignore all those questioning why and what and who and where.

[Austeyr]

To clarify some points. The company i work for is not an NGO/ Non profit organisation it is a business that is here to profit.

When i was hired it was well known that i was not Christian and has never been an issue until now.

The Monday bible studies are something that have been implemented recently.

[kuffki]

To clarify some points. The company i work for is not an NGO/ Non profit organisation it is a business that is here to profit.

When i was hired it was well known that i was not Christian and has never been an issue until now.

The Monday bible studies are something that have been implemented recently.

Go back to the manager, advise him you are Buddhist and happy to be one.

You do consider compulsory bible study as being a way trying to convert you.

You live your life and work according to your Buddhist believes and are not willing not only to covert but learn about Christian way of life.

Should he/she insist, you will have no option but to contact Thai labor union and Thai lawyer to take action. You will also contact media to notify people of such an outrage(ie Buddhist in Thailand forced to convert)

I have a feeling things will change for you, i only hope they do not start Buddhist study group for you

PS. Do not forget to mention, that you are more then happy to attend any work training seminars but thats as far as you are willing to go

Edited March 1, 2010 by kuffki

[lannarebirth]

To clarify some points. The company i work for is not an NGO/ Non profit organisation it is a business that is here to profit.

When i was hired it was well known that i was not Christian and has never been an issue until now.

The Monday bible studies are something that have been implemented recently.

Go back to the manager, advise him you are Buddhist and happy to be one.

You do consider compulsory bible study as being a way trying to convert you.

You live your life and work according to your Buddhist believes and are not willing not only to covert but learn about Christian way of life.

Should he/she insist, you will have no option but to contact Thai labor union and Thai lawyer to take action. You will also contact media to notify people of such an outrage(ie Buddhist in Thailand forced to convert)

I have a feeling things will change for you, i only hope they do not start Buddhist study group for you

PS. Do not forget to mention, that you are more then happy to attend any work training seminars but thats as far as you are willing to go

`Only thing is, a Buddhist would probably attend the study, get nothing out of it, collect his paycheck and be unfazed by the whole matter.

[SeanMoran]

To clarify some points. The company i work for is not an NGO/ Non profit organisation it is a business that is here to profit.

When i was hired it was well known that i was not Christian and has never been an issue until now.

The Monday bible studies are something that have been implemented recently.

Go back to the manager, advise him you are Buddhist and happy to be one.

You do consider compulsory bible study as being a way trying to convert you.

You live your life and work according to your Buddhist believes and are not willing not only to covert but learn about Christian way of life.

Should he/she insist, you will have no option but to contact Thai labor union and Thai lawyer to take action. You will also contact media to notify people of such an outrage(ie Buddhist in Thailand forced to convert)

I have a feeling things will change for you, i only hope they do not start Buddhist study group for you

PS. Do not forget to mention, that you are more then happy to attend any work training seminars but thats as far as you are willing to go

`Only thing is, a Buddhist would probably attend the study, get nothing out of it, collect his paycheck and be unfazed by the whole matter.

Well that's the wisest piece of advice I've read all day.

[Xangsamhua]

Well, it's in the boss's time, isn't it.

"Grin and bear it"? "Lie back and think of England"?

But I don't think the OP said he was a Buddhist, did he?

[SeanMoran]

Well, it's in the boss's time, isn't it.

"Grin and bear it"? "Lie back and think of England"?

But I don't think the OP said he was a Buddhist, did he?

Another fundamentalist Athiest from what I gather. That might get in the way of his employment in the future, and he should have mentioned it before the last appointment was granted. Factory work might be an exception, but they wouldn't be offering 90 minutes off work on Monday mornings if this was about factory work, would they?

<ed: typo>

Edited March 1, 2010 by SeanMoran

[kuffki]

Well, it's in the boss's time, isn't it.

"Grin and bear it"? "Lie back and think of England"?

But I don't think the OP said he was a Buddhist, did he?

No he did not say he was Buddhist, but he did say he NOT Christian.

But i still do not see the relevance of what religion he is. The point is company can not just start to enforce its managers or owners religious beliefs on to its employees.

He did state clearly that he informed the company at the time of employment he WAS NOT christian and the stupidity only came to effect just recently as he explained.

So he seriously can not be expected to listen to it and waist his time on it. Even if he was Christian, it is his choice to attend or not, after all it is year 2010.

Just to make matters worse, they are forcing him to learn Christianity in Buddhist country. Whats next? some arab company forcing all employees to attend Koran lesson and start to plan bombs because it is jihad way.

So i would stick my my previous post and give it back to them. This kind of stupidity would never fly back in USA or any other country, why should he allow it in Thailand

[britmaveric]

Bottom line prob should just suck it up or find a new job. Just because you attend bible study does not mean you have to believe it. (use it as an education opportunity)

[HS Mauberley]

It must be a hel_l of a job if you still want to work there after they announced the hour-and-a-half bible study (just thinking about it makes me retch). No idea about Thai law but as for most Thais, being Thai is pretty much interchangeable with being Buddhist, I doubt there are too many laws on this. I'd recommend chinning your boss and finding somewhere to work that wasn't staffed by loonies.

[lannarebirth]

To clarify some points. The company i work for is not an NGO/ Non profit organisation it is a business that is here to profit.

When i was hired it was well known that i was not Christian and has never been an issue until now.

The Monday bible studies are something that have been implemented recently.

Go back to the manager, advise him you are Buddhist and happy to be one.

You do consider compulsory bible study as being a way trying to convert you.

You live your life and work according to your Buddhist believes and are not willing not only to covert but learn about Christian way of life.

Should he/she insist, you will have no option but to contact Thai labor union and Thai lawyer to take action. You will also contact media to notify people of such an outrage(ie Buddhist in Thailand forced to convert)

I have a feeling things will change for you, i only hope they do not start Buddhist study group for you

PS. Do not forget to mention, that you are more then happy to attend any work training seminars but thats as far as you are willing to go

`Only thing is, a Buddhist would probably attend the study, get nothing out of it, collect his paycheck and be unfazed by the whole matter.

Well that's the wisest piece of advice I've read all day.

He might even take a portion of that paycheck down to the wat and make tamboon.

[kuffki]

Bottom line prob should just suck it up or find a new job. Just because you attend bible study does not mean you have to believe it. (use it as an education opportunity)

Why should he?

I have been reading a number of your posts, and hate to say but you seem to be one of those people for whom its "well thats how it is"

If you are, thats very sad. Everyone has the right to stand for their rights. A large number of people still kept their self respect and beliefs.

I wonder where this world would be if during ww2 all Germans said" oh well, thats how it is"

or other people in regards to Jews being exterminated

or all African-American in USA said the same 100 years ago

Yes you have moved Thailand and yes you have to respect the culture, but it does not mean that you have to forget who you are and where you came from.

Edited March 1, 2010 by kuffki

[britmaveric]

^Well if you do not want to keep your job then by all means stick by your guns. However I think not having a job might be a worse off situation for the OP then attending bible studies.

Edited March 1, 2010 by britmaveric

[Jingthing]

If it was me, I would be VERY offended by this requirement. Even more so as a Jew. How far do we have to travel from the US to get away from evangelical American Christian fundamentalists. However, before taking action or getting fired, I would probably attend a meeting or two to see what is it about. If all I had to do was sit there like a zombie, it might be OK. I could zone it out the same way I zone out tailor touts in Pattaya. If I actually had to study that stuff actively, I would not be able to tolerate that. As an employee they buy your time and energy, but they have no right on your soul.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[kuffki]

I find the idea of compulsory bible study horrific but comparing it to the Holocaust is more than a little tasteless.

I think you misunderstood the previous post, may be an idea to go back and read it again

[Spoonman]

The business obviously has Thai employees, what do they think of the compulsory bible studies ??