Is Sex Without Love Wrong?

[venturalaw]

True venturalaw, but given that over 90% of ThaiVisa members are male then I think I am safe to use the phrase "too many guys here"

Over 90%? Did not know. That's interesting.

[sbk]

Please re-read my post, thanks. Did I say "All guys" ?

[Boo]

and we are reading a lot of "women want this from a guy & if he isn't it then he isn't considered good enough" but what about the millions of posts here that like to claim that if a women isn't this or that then SHE isn't' good enough. Men & women BOTH get something out of a relationship. Women aren't the only ones who have expectations from a mate. And FYI, for every woman I know, money ISN'T a factor in choosing a guy, so maybe those who do go on about it are just drawn to women who need your economic power & that jades your view on all women? POP, hear that, the sound of a load of bubbles bursting

[sbk]

True venturalaw, but given that over 90% of ThaiVisa members are male then I think I am safe to use the phrase "too many guys here"

Over 90%? Did not know. That's interesting.

perhaps I should be clearer and state it this way "91% of respondents in the last ThaiVisa survey were male" So, active members, yes, more than 90% since presumably inactive members wouldn't bother answering a survey that was posted in a thread on ThaiVisa and was not in the newsletter.

[caf]

Your post in interesting and I agree with some of it, but the part about boys being indoctrinated into being gay is just plain nonsense. Homosexuality is genetic and very few heterosexuals are going to be swayed by any sort of sexual propoganda. The call of nature is just too strong.

As far as consequences from prostitution, of course there are. There are consequences from using oil, eating food, driving cars and pretty much everything that we get up to, but if a sexworker wants to make a lot of money very quickly, they might be more than happy to do what they have to do.

I actually agree with most of that.

But may be I put the point badly in an earlier post.

The sexworker may not want to make money very quickly and be happy to do what they have to do. They may have little other choice , maybe because of family pressure and the need to send money home. And they certainly may not be happy about the situation. the Thai smile has a different meaning from a western smile.

Trust there is nothing wrong with this opinion. (I believe it is common sense. )

caf

[SeanMoran]

True venturalaw, but given that over 90% of ThaiVisa members are male then I think I am safe to use the phrase "too many guys here"

Over 90%? Did not know. That's interesting.

perhaps I should be clearer and state it this way "91% of respondents in the last ThaiVisa survey were male" So, active members, yes, more than 90% since presumably inactive members wouldn't bother answering a survey that was posted in a thread on ThaiVisa and was not in the newsletter.

Some of us are just here for the fairly-priced cigarettes and the cheap hotel rates, but it is a wonder to be able to look out the window if this hotel, down on the street, and see 20-30 people walk by everyday from wake-up to bedtime, and 90% if the men I see outside are rigourous looking healthy blokes of roughly all ages who I reckon I could trust if I had a flat tyre somewhere on a dark road at night, and 90% of the sheilas I see out my window of 'roughly all ages' are also very healthy and active sorts of people so much so that more often than not, I think to myself, what a wonderful girl.

[caf]

Hmmm is the question actually "Is prostitution or paying for sex wrong?" or is it "is sex without love wrong?"

Those two questions are not the same. The question is bound up with what actually constitutes consent. If both (or more) participants are there not to survive but because they want to have fun, then hey! Have fun! However, if one of the participants is there to survive then it seems there is a form of economic coersion going on. imho.... of course

I have to say that being an adult gay man certainly does give me an advantage in Thailand and everywhere else where homosexuality is not condemned. Men like sex

Why is it necessarily 'coercion' if money is involved? Why can it not be what is the norm for the BG experience here in Thailand - agreed upon price for sex? Where is the coercion? Most who work in any profession do so for money, often for survival. Why is it coercion to pay for one's services?

I think the poster meant possible coersion from the family or others and not the customer.

I agree there is no coersion in paying for a service entered into freely where no other coersion is involved

caf

[caf]

I think most often, men and women view sex from two different positions. For many man, it is strictly a physical act where there's very litte emotion involved. For most women there is emotion first and then sex.

True. But then "female emotion" is very much dependent on the status (position, wealth) of the man.

For example: an ugly old man like Mick Jagger can have hundreds of young girls. Their "emotion" is easily affected by the wealth, fame and status Mick Jagger has.

Then the same hundred young girls would just yuck if an equally ugly Joe Plumber in Pattaya would approach them. The only difference is that Joe Plumber does not have the same status as Mick Jagger.

A Thai BG would still see Joe Plumber as much more attractive than Mr. Somchai from their Isaan village.

So it very much depends on your ability to touch a girl's emotion. Depending on your status, wealth, looks... it will be different girls. But the way it works, is universal.

I couldn't agree more. Back in my "dating days", when I was in my twenties, I had a lovely, supposedly "sweet" girl friend who shocked me one time by stating that Frank Sinatra could park his shoes under her bed any day. Frank Sinatra was notorious for treating women like objects, but the women just ate it up... because he was famous. It was an eye opener into the psyche of some women. Many times I met gals who stated flatly that if the guy wasn't a doctor, an airline pilot, a lawyer, or some wealthy businessman, then they weren't interested in a relationship. If THAT ain't putting money at the top of the list then nothing is. No love and strictly a business proposition... just like prostitution. Hey, and I could see where they were coming from. It was THEIR choice to make. I just backed out of the equation and looked elsewhere.

Many members wondered why you took up fishing and writing rather than donning a pilot's uniform

caf

[SeanMoran]

Hmmm is the question actually "Is prostitution or paying for sex wrong?" or is it "is sex without love wrong?"

Those two questions are not the same. The question is bound up with what actually constitutes consent. If both (or more) participants are there not to survive but because they want to have fun, then hey! Have fun! However, if one of the participants is there to survive then it seems there is a form of economic coersion going on. imho.... of course

I have to say that being an adult gay man certainly does give me an advantage in Thailand and everywhere else where homosexuality is not condemned. Men like sex

Why is it necessarily 'coercion' if money is involved? Why can it not be what is the norm for the BG experience here in Thailand - agreed upon price for sex? Where is the coercion? Most who work in any profession do so for money, often for survival. Why is it coercion to pay for one's services?

I think the poster meant possible coersion from the family or others and not the customer.

I agree there is no coersion in paying for a service entered into freely where no other coersion is involved

caf

Most species of mammal just have sex whenever they feel like it with whoever they feel like without money changing paws.

[twschw]

Paying a women or man to have sex with you is a totally different kettle of fish. You are procuring the service they offer, they "could" refuse you I suppose depending on their financial situation at the time or the rules of the bar but to imply that this is a case of 2 consenting adults enjoying each other then you are wrong, there are far too many variables & you are buying their body for that time.

It seems this whole debate comes back to this quote. I really don't see the logic here. She is getting what she wants (money) and he is getting what he wants (sexual relief). Sounds like a win-win situation to me and it sounds consensual.

[SeanMoran]

Paying a women or man to have sex with you is a totally different kettle of fish. You are procuring the service they offer, they "could" refuse you I suppose depending on their financial situation at the time or the rules of the bar but to imply that this is a case of 2 consenting adults enjoying each other then you are wrong, there are far too many variables & you are buying their body for that time.

It seems this whole debate comes back to this quote. I really don't see the logic here. She is getting what she wants (money) and he is getting what he wants (sexual relief). Sounds like a win-win situation to me and it sounds consensual.

... which brings us back to the start = make love, not war.

[twschw]

[Ulysses G.]

She is getting what she wants (money) and he is getting what he wants (sexual relief). Sounds like a win-win situation to me and it sounds consensual.

I concur. They are both consenting. However, I will also admit that they both might not "enjoy" each other sexually. That is why one of the consenting adults is getting paid.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[SeanMoran]

She is getting what she wants (money) and he is getting what he wants (sexual relief). Sounds like a win-win situation to me and it sounds consensual.

I concur. They are both consenting. However, I will also admit that they both might not "enjoy" each other sexually. That is why one of the consenting adults is getting paid.

There are certain techniques you might work on practicing if you seek the enjoyment of the consenting adult in question, that that is certainly beyond the scope of this forum, so use your imagination.

[Ulysses G.]

Frankly, I am not concerned one way or another about sexually pleasing paid partners, however "enjoyment" was a point in the post that we were commenting on.

[SeanMoran]

Frankly, I am not concerned one way or another about sexually pleasing paid partners, however "enjoyment" was a point in the post that we were commenting on.

Just imagine yourself in her place, instead of yours, and go from there. The rest is quite natural once you remove the fiscal barriers, amongst other things.

[Ulysses G.]

Thinking of anyone paying me for such acts is in the realm of Science Fiction.

[twschw]

I am sure she enjoys some and endures others. Just like any other service related job.

BTW, I am agreeing with you UG

[SeanMoran]

Thinking of anyone paying me for such acts is in the realm of Science Fiction.

From the day she reached puberty, she has been inclined to judge herself by what others see in her, to justify her own existence. By the age of eighteen, she already has a Masters' Degree in looking in your eyes and working out what you think of her, so learn how to see yourself through her eyes. the same way she thinks of herself through yours.

[venturalaw]

Thinking of anyone paying me for such acts is in the realm of Science Fiction.

From the day she reached puberty, she has been inclined to judge herself by what others see in her, to justify her own existence. By the age of eighteen, she already has a Masters' Degree in looking in your eyes and working out what you think of her, so learn how to see yourself through her eyes. the same way she thinks of herself through yours.

Why?

[SeanMoran]

Thinking of anyone paying me for such acts is in the realm of Science Fiction.

From the day she reached puberty, she has been inclined to judge herself by what others see in her, to justify her own existence. By the age of eighteen, she already has a Masters' Degree in looking in your eyes and working out what you think of her, so learn how to see yourself through her eyes. the same way she thinks of herself through yours.

Why?

Because you love her.

[stevymac]

simple answer is NO!! What happens 4 instance if u fall out of love with ur gf but still have sex or 4 instance u have few too many beer changs an wake up with a girl u cant even remember meeting. AN anyhow what is love?

[StreetCowboy]

simple answer is NO!! What happens 4 instance if u fall out of love with ur gf but still have sex or 4 instance have few too many beer changs an wake up with a girl u cant even remember meeting. AN anyhow what is love?

"...have few too many beer changs an wake up with a girl u cant even remember meeting." - that definitely seems wrong. It always felt wrong for me.

SC

[britmaveric]

^well could wake up next to a ladyboy mistakenly.

[tutsiwarrior]

I had sex many times with a woman that I wasn't in love with...it was so good that I couldn't get enough...she didn't want money or favors, she just wanted to be with me...

in the Saul Bellow novel Herzog there was a passage where the protagonist was involved with a woman in the same situation...the narrative said something to the effect 'she only wanted to give me comfort and pleasure but, because I had no strength of character I couldn't honorably accept without reciprocation...' and he ditched her..she didn't understand why she was rejected and this mirrors my situation with the woman above...

how do you explain guilt, which is a very western thing, to an asian woman? I still intend to return to Indonesia to throw myself at her feet and to beg for forgiveness...but she was smart and probably knows that I cringe on a daily basis for the past 15 years remembering...

uh...I didn't read the other posts on this thread...was this already covered?

Edited March 8, 2010 by tutsiwarrior

[IanForbes]

sbk gets off the chair to pick UG off the floor

I hope yer strong gal, because there's a whole bunch of us dudes you're going to have to pick up.

[Schooner]

The real question should be "is judging other peoples behavior wrong.

I have spent a lifetime trying to figure out and manage myself. What would give me the idea to know what is better for someone else. If I do something and it makes me feel bad, well, I just have to stop doing it.

I had a blast with the girls in Pattaya. They are more fun than any of the women I knew in the US and they know to not take things too seriously. The notion that everyone has to be a college graduate is stupid. Some are better doing what they are doing and the ones that have it will rise to the top and the ones that don't will sink to the bottom. I made some of the best friendships with these women and was never cheated by one. Eventually I tired of the party life and married a good Thai girl because that is who I was attracted to long for a long term relationship. Were living in the states now and our best friends are farang/thai, she is a former bg and my wife gets along with her fine. We've known her for 4 years and everythng indicates that she is a person of integrity who dosen't smoke, dring or gamble. She's dedicated to her marrage and her son, but she is not interested in education and when she gets back to thailand she wants to have a bar and run the girls

I spent half my life as a sales engineer. I had to entertain and fake relationships with people that I didn't even like. I partyed with them and made them feel great so I could get them to buy my products. I think I know something about being a hooker myself. The process is virtually the same.

Whenever I feel myself wanting to judge someone elses behavior I remind myself to look inward because something is wrong with me if I feel superior to anyone else.

Someone one said to me "say who you are and be who you say you are" it's as simple as that.

Sex and love have nothing to do with each other. If you take away testosterone than you take away desire for sex. It is possible to love someone without having sex and vice versa

[IanForbes]

I had sex many times with a woman that I wasn't in love with...it was so good that I couldn't get enough...she didn't want money or favors, she just wanted to be with me...

in the Saul Bellow novel Herzog there was a passage where the protagonist was involved with a woman in the same situation...the narrative said something to the effect 'she only wanted to give me comfort and pleasure but, because I had no strength of character I couldn't honorably accept without reciprocation...' and he ditched her..she didn't understand why she was rejected and this mirrors my situation with the woman above...

how do you explain guilt, which is a very western thing, to an asian woman? I still intend to return to Indonesia to throw myself at her feet and to beg for forgiveness...but she was smart and probably knows that I cringe on a daily basis for the past 15 years remembering...

uh...I didn't read the other posts on this thread...was this already covered?

I'm not sure if we covered that issue or not. There have been a lot of good replies, and also some funny ones. But, with me, I intentionally turn down a LOT of potential sex for no other reason than I don't WANT to get involved with a nice woman and possibly hurt her in the future. That might be similar to what you are saying. There was a stunning gal from the Philippines I was once briefly involved with. Had I not been working at the time, and basically on my way home, I might have wound up married to her. I had already used up my holiday time and needed to return to work. I often think of that short, hot encounter and wondered what might have happened if we had stayed longer together. Had I been retired like I am now I certainly would have changed my flight times and stayed on for as long as it took. She was gone when I returned the following year.

[IanForbes]

sorry for the double post... Here's a funny, true story to compensate.

A friend's parents went out to dinner with another couple. This couple has a son who has Down's Syndrome.

While they were eating, the son called to tell them there was a troll in the house.

They figured he had just seen something that reminder him of a story about trolls, and blew him off. A half hour, and a few phone calls later, they decided they had better go find out what is happening at home.

When they arrive home, the son leads them into his bedroom, where he has all of his furniture pushed up against the closet door. Hearing sounds from inside the closet, they quickly remove the furniture, and out walks a dwarf.

He was the US Census taker, who had come to the house to ask a few questions.

Edited March 8, 2010 by IanForbes

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah...it's hard to ignore a good time even if the person you're with is sincere...easier to handle when there's money involved and no questions asked...

but...sometimes sincerity is hard to judge...I knew a bar woman in Vietnam and we spent the most part of an evening talking and laughing with some sex along the way...I woke up later with her arms around me, she seemed to like me...

we hung around together a lot afterward, we even watched old movies together on the TCM channel and discussed them but she had other clients and activities that she couldn't conceal...

when I had to leave she became emotional and wanted money (oh, how can you leave me like this?) I said 'listen sweetheart, it's been a game...a game that we can no longer afford and now we gotta shut up an' act like adults...' (best Bogart accent)...she played the Mary Astor until the end...

I still think of her a lot as when we got into it she was enthusiastic, terrific bod...the staff at the Hosen Hotel on Thi Sach street would approach the door handle on our room with asbestos gloves...melt down time on the other side...

my wife knew what I was up to and I was later severely punished for my indiscretions...