How Many Fluent Farangs Are There?

[HalfSquat]

I was just wondering to myself how many fluent Thai speakers there are amongst the farang living in or out of Thailand.

Is it a high number and not that uncommon or would you say it is a very rare occurance?

Cheers

[Parvis]

A large proportion of farangs live here in retirement etc etc etc - therefore they certainly have no need - or even desire to speak Thai. But it certainly would be very interesting to know how a typical farang learns to speak Thai - how long it takes - and how fluent they become.

My "guesstimate" would be only 10% or less of farang retirees attempt to speak Thai.

From my observation the "younger generation" of farang is divided in 2 groups.

1) Those who have a legitimate job in Thailand - who are send - and are paid - by their parent Company - perhaps 30% of them attempt to learn Thai at some point.

2) Those who typically desire to live in Thailand - but have no "legitimate job" BEFORE the arrive are forced to study because they need a Ed Visa to be able to stay long term. This is probably the largest proportion of "Thai-learners" and farangs in general. This is the group targetted by many Schools.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Parvis

[kikenyoy]

I guess the first step would be for you to describe your definition of "fluent". On forums like the one at http://how-to-learn-any-language.com the topic has been debated to death and there is still no agreed upon standard. Opinions range from being able to "get by" in daily life to being able to attend a University and be able to understand and participate in a lecture on any subject.

Based on your standard, the number will vary greatly.

[Briggsy]

I guess the first step would be for you to describe your definition of "fluent". On forums like the one at http://how-to-learn-any-language.com the topic has been debated to death and there is still no agreed upon standard. Opinions range from being able to "get by" in daily life to being able to attend a University and be able to understand and participate in a lecture on any subject.

Based on your standard, the number will vary greatly.

Excellent post. You took the words out of my mouth. Many farangs at my place of work consider me fluent but I well know I would have great difficulty in a Prathom 6 class never mind a university lecture in Thai.

So do I count or not? Over to you, OP.

p.s. one of the main factors in approaching fluency in any language is the age at which you take it up.

[HalfSquat]

From my observation the "younger generation" of farang is divided in 2 groups.

1) Those who have a legitimate job in Thailand - who are send - and are paid - by their parent Company - perhaps 30% of them attempt to learn Thai at some point.

2) Those who typically desire to live in Thailand - but have no "legitimate job" BEFORE the arrive are forced to study because they need a Ed Visa to be able to stay long term. This is probably the largest proportion of "Thai-learners" and farangs in general. This is the group targetted by many Schools.

Where I work they mainly recruit from overseas and bring them to Thailand for the job. Most start taking Thai lessons and as the months go on drop out as its too hard don't really need to be able to speak it. The ones that do well are the ones who have a Thai partner (although lots of people with Thai partners still can't speak a word!) or do things with other Thais outside of work (which most people don't).

I'm still plugging away but not having much luck!

As for what is fluent, who knows, being able to hold and join in a conversation around the dinner table with a cross section of Thais?

[SoftWater]

....do things with other Thais outside of work (which most people don't).

Yeah, I think this is key. It's something I don't do and am painfully aware of how much faster I'd be learning if I was actually involved in some activity in which English was not an option but in which verbal communication was required.

As for what is fluent, who knows, being able to hold and join in a conversation around the dinner table with a cross section of Thais?

I think that's a nice working definition. I prefer the to think of being 'conversant' rather than fluent as it seems to admit of wider degrees of proficiency.

Edited March 7, 2010 by SoftWater

[Parvis]

Halfsquat - Softwater - I agree that being conversant in Thai is a better definition than being fluent.

I noticed that people tend to drop out of private Thai Schools readily - which I ascribe to the fact that private Schools in general have not adopted proper methods of introducing the Thai language - to the beginner. Private Schools are typically attended by students whose primary goal in Thailand IS NOT to be able to speak Thai - therefore they tend to drop out "at will" when Thai "seems" to become too difficult.

It is my personal experience that to progress in Thai you have to be able to study independently IN ADDITION to going to School (2x/week). In todays computer age methods are available to study, listen and speak interactively with the Computer - which I feel is more efficient than Classes. Yet all the professional Computer methods - I am aware of - use Thai script and almost all Schools use some form of transliteration. Therefore, these 2 "complimentary" ways of learning Thai are essentially incompatible.

There is only one School - I am aware of - that uses Thai script at the "beginner level". Their Book 1 - which should be an introduction to the Thai language - is poorly put together in addition to being outdated 40 some years. Their retention rate is probably very low - unless the Students primary purpose is an ED Visa.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Parvis

[Joosesis]

When I first started learning Thai...I told everyone that asked, that I could speak นิดหน่อย and then it became a bit rediculous and my sister suggested I switch to พอดี ....and now that is getting laughed at and insufficient. Now, I just list the school level...I can read/write at ป.๔ I can't be at a children's level and fluent, of course, but at least it gives people a sense where I am. For now, my school goals are to complete ป.๖ and I don't know where I'll go after that....nor do I know when I'll feel comfortable with the word 'fluent'.

[NADTATIDA1]

I would say it is a lot lot less than 10% of the expat population that can converse to an exceptable level and by this i mean sit with a group of thais and join in with there chit chat and understand what they are speaking,more like 5%.

[Tod Daniels]

I agree the word fluency has widely disparate meanings among foreigners I have met here that profess to be able to speak thai. I also agree it is a small percentage of foreigners indeed who can do more than carry on a rudimentary conversation in thai.

Sometimes when I hear foreigners speaking with their (in)significant other I can’t understand a single word (and I can usually understand quite poorly spoken thai ). Sometimes foreigners will speak thai but then when they don’t know a word insert the english word, making a tough slog. I’ve met people who've lived here for 10+ years, married to a thai, who have children, etc, yet speak such poorly constructed thai that it is almost indecipherable.

The only thing worse is foreigners speaking that hideous “baby-talk engrish” with thais; “you hungry now?, we go home?, what you want?, why you do that?. .. That stuff just drives me crazy. Now I freely admit I adjust my engrish to the level of the thai I’m speaking to but I certainly don’t speak to them like I've had a frickin’ stroke.

Overall, most foreigners I have met seem to have horrific thai language skills; most, at least in my area, having learned their language skills in the nefarious nite-life areas . They seem to speak a level of thai no better than ‘horse-peak’ and their spoken thai would make an immigrations officer cringe if spoken to in that manner.

I am not privy to the foreigners here who are employed for international companies, or ones who interact on a daily basis with the thais, simply because I am retired, and have no exposure to that particular foreign demographic.

I know HUNDREDS of current and former students from a private thai language school I attended; yet NONE of them can carry on more than a basic two-word-thai conversation, (something you could pick up out of a guide book in a day).

I think being competent in any language has a lot to do with the ability to voice thoughts, opinions and abstract ideas more than the b/s small talk of ordering food or directing a taxi.

When you can tell a thai what you think about a particular situation, ask them their opinion, and then counter it with a rebuttal I think your ability is approaching some higher level of competency.

Unfortunately for me, some things I have abso-tively posi-lutely NO interest in; mostly things like thai culture, thai history, and/or the thai government. I don’t bother learning vocabulary about those subjects preferring to say I’m not thai and/or I don’t care about them.

I would rate my ‘effluent-cy’ <sic> very low simply for the above stated fact. I can and do converse with thais about many things, but some things are just of zero interest to me.

[canuckamuck]

If you think your Thai is approaching fluency, try talking to 6 year old native speaker at the speed he talks to his friends, likely he will talk circles around you.

It put things into perspective to me.

[Parvis]

I agree "fluency" or "competency" is very low. There is just no need to speak Thai in most cases and private Schools appear to be poor - in particular those who need to rely on flashy advertising and slogans - rather than recommendations.

But once in a while I come across farangs whose Thai ability amazes me. Recently I met a professor (U.S. ctizen) of a local University - fluent in Thai. I asked him what his thoughts on this subject were: He told me "If a student cannot learn - the teacher cannot teach" - He elaborated further that he feels the teaching material is poor - especially on the beginner level.

"IF A STUDENT CANNOT LEARN - THE TEACHER CANNOT TEACH"

Yet there is this School with his constant slogans "We inspire - We teach to think in Thai - We constanly improve - We are the leader others must follow".

Edited March 8, 2010 by Parvis

[Murf]

When I first started learning Thai...I told everyone that asked, that I could speak นิดหน่อย and then it became a bit ridiculous

Exactly the same...

Sometimes when I hear foreigners speaking with their (in)significant other I can’t understand a single word (and I can usually understand quite poorly spoken thai ). Sometimes foreigners will speak thai but then when they don’t know a word insert the english word, making a tough slog. I’ve met people who've lived here for 10+ years, married to a thai, who have children, etc, yet speak such poorly constructed thai that it is almost indecipherable.

The only thing worse is foreigners speaking that hideous “baby-talk engrish” with thais; “you hungry now?, we go home?, what you want?, why you do that?. .. That stuff just drives me crazy. Now I freely admit I adjust my engrish to the level of the thai I’m speaking to but I certainly don’t speak to them like I've had a frickin’ stroke.

I hear you brother, I hear ya.

My Thai isn't particularly spectacular, but i can hold a general conversation, read and write in a conversational manner.

I love it when someone who doesn't know I have a fairly good grasp of the language tells me that someone else is geng เก่ง ... then i hear them speak, and it is crap.

Thais seem to label foreigners who can string 2-3 words together with no tonal expression as geng เก่ง ... and then there is me, who can speak นิดหน่อย

Is nit noy better than geng???? 555+

Edited March 8, 2010 by Murf

[canuckamuck]

I agree "fluency" or "competency" is very low. There is just no need to speak Thai in most cases and private Schools appear to be poor - in particular those who need to rely on flashy advertising and slogans - rather than recommendations.

But once in a while I come across farangs whose Thai ability amazes me. Recently I met a professor (U.S. ctizen) of a local University - fluent in Thai. I asked him what his thoughts on this subject were: He told me "If a student cannot learn - the teacher cannot teach" - He elaborated further that he feels the teaching material is poor - especially on the beginner level.

"IF A STUDENT CANNOT LEARN - THE TEACHER CANNOT TEACH"

Yet there is this School with his constant slogans "We inspire - We teach to think in Thai - We constanly improve - We are the leader others must follow".

I disagree, there are many students that are too lazy to put in the effort required, there are many that are unteachable, and there many that are too disadvantaged ie. hearing problems, memory problems, dumb as a post...

Thai as a second language is not for everyone.

Edited March 8, 2010 by canuckamuck

[GarryP]

My son once said that my spoken Thai sounds more natural than Mr. Biggs'. I thought he was taking the piss but apparently not. I can also speak comfortably round Thai six year olds. Speak about politics in Thai almost daily. I can read Thai and translate from Thai to English, but cannot write Thai to save my life. Thus, I would not count myself as fluent even though I may go many days at a time without speaking any English at all.

Never took a formal lesson in Thai language and the only book I had was the black bible "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language".

I agree that there are different levels of fluency, but do not agree that fluency can only be gained through formal study as some seem to believe.

[SoftWater]

I agree that there are different levels of fluency, but do not agree that fluency can only be gained through formal study as some seem to believe.

Hi Garry, I'm interested in who/where you have seen the claim that "fluency can only be gained through formal study". I've never seen anyone claim this except people like our friend Benny the Irishpolyglot and others who are trying to sell their own language system and thus invent some kind of "straw man" to make their own method look good.

(Apart from Benny's blog, you could also google Asher's TPR method, AUA's ALG method and the Callan Method for examples of people who deliberately mischaracterise conventional teaching.)

I know you're not selling anything and I trust your opinion, so I'd be interested to know where you got the idea that conventional teaching claims fluency can only be acquired through formal study.

Thanks in advance

Sw

[Parvis]

"I disagree, there are many students that are too lazy to put in the effort required, there are many that are unteachable, and there many that are too disadvantaged ie. hearing problems, memory problems, dumb as a post...

Thai as a second language is not for everyone."

Canuckamuck.

There is no such thing as "unteachable" unless you are a "vegetable" - but yes many students in the beginning classes do not belong in Private Thai School - they have no incentive - they do not attend regularily - they are not interested - they are there because they need the ED Visa to be able to live (and probably work) in Thailand. They are there to misuse the Ed Visa system - as those waiting to be deported "Thai students" in Florida were doing.

Not all "Thai Language" Students belong to this group. Typically in the "more advanced classes" you will not longer find them there. Typically those in the more advanced classes worked their way through the difficulties - despite the deficiencies of beginning class material - and will go on to become "reasonably proficient" in Thai - in time.

"IF A STUDENT CANNOT LEARN - THE TEACHER CANNOT TEACH" - or the student does not belong in Classroom in the first place.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Parvis

[toptuan]

In seven years of living in Thailand I only know two foreigners who are really, really fluent: speaking, reading, writing.

Their first full year in Thailand was spent in 8-hours a day language study, five days a week.

[canuckamuck]

"I disagree, there are many students that are too lazy to put in the effort required, there are many that are unteachable, and there many that are too disadvantaged ie. hearing problems, memory problems, dumb as a post...

Thai as a second language is not for everyone."

Canuckamuck.

There is no such thing as "unteachable" unless you are a "vegetable" - but yes many students in the beginning classes do not belong in Private Thai School - they have no incentive - they do not attend regularily - they are not interested - they are there because they need the ED Visa to be able to live (and probably work) in Thailand. They are there to misuse the Ed Visa system - as those waiting to be deported "Thai students" in Florida were doing.

Not all "Thai Language" Students belong to this group. Typically in the "more advanced classes" you will not longer find them there. Typically those in the more advanced classes worked their way through the difficulties - despite the deficiencies of beginning class material - and will go on to become "reasonably proficient" in Thai - in time.

"IF A STUDENT CANNOT LEARN - THE TEACHER CANNOT TEACH" - or the student does not belong in Classroom in the first place.

The ones who don't belong in the classroom were the ones I meant as being unteachable, there are many chronic failure types that have washed up on Thailand's shores.

Not every student will succeed in a given school situation either, in many cases this is not the teachers fault, as the teacher might not have the time necessary to bring each student to the next level. Private teaching is different though.

[GarryP]

I agree that there are different levels of fluency, but do not agree that fluency can only be gained through formal study as some seem to believe.

Hi Garry, I'm interested in who/where you have seen the claim that "fluency can only be gained through formal study". I've never seen anyone claim this except people like our friend Benny the Irishpolyglot and others who are trying to sell their own language system and thus invent some kind of "straw man" to make their own method look good.

(Apart from Benny's blog, you could also google Asher's TPR method, AUA's ALG method and the Callan Method for examples of people who deliberately mischaracterise conventional teaching.)

I know you're not selling anything and I trust your opinion, so I'd be interested to know where you got the idea that conventional teaching claims fluency can only be acquired through formal study.

Thanks in advance

Sw

I believe there has been a misunderstanding. I have not intended to say that "conventional teaching claims fluency can only....thru formal study". My reference to "some seem to believe" is to posters on this website.

I do believe that if I had formally studied Thai, it would not have taken me as long as it did to get to my current level. I just did not have the time. Nevertheless, I believe there are many ways to skin a cat and formal study is only one of them.

[dmax]

i would say for expats about 1 in 10 can speak fluent thai, the others only think they can , ive learned a little myself and i can tell you its not an easy language to grip

[Parvis]

"I think being competent in any language has a lot to do with the ability to voice thoughts, opinions and abstract ideas more than the b/s small talk of ordering food or directing a taxi."

Tod Daniels

If I recall correctly you went to the same school I am currently attending. For a change I have something positive to say about this School. I still disagree with much of their material - especially book 1 which I feel should be totally revised.

However the Teacher/Student interaction at the present time is now such that thoughts, ideas, opinions etc are now "discussed" on a limited basis (totally off the textbook). This helps students to formulate "interaction" more or less spontaneously.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Parvis

[jdinasia]

I guess the first step would be for you to describe your definition of "fluent". On forums like the one at http://how-to-learn-any-language.com the topic has been debated to death and there is still no agreed upon standard. Opinions range from being able to "get by" in daily life to being able to attend a University and be able to understand and participate in a lecture on any subject.

Based on your standard, the number will vary greatly.

Excellent post. You took the words out of my mouth. Many farangs at my place of work consider me fluent but I well know I would have great difficulty in a Prathom 6 class never mind a university lecture in Thai.

So do I count or not? Over to you, OP.

p.s. one of the main factors in approaching fluency in any language is the age at which you take it up.

I would say my personal level is beyond just aboe to get by. I sit in meetings in Thai (with nurses, Dr's and business people) and understand most everything that is on topic for the meeting. On the other hand if the topic shifts suddenly I quite easily get lost until I catch the new topic. My responses are usually limited to English just because checking my own ideas before speaking takes painfully long in meetings that are most often brainstorming. I could probably handle the university lecture better than a P6 class just due to the lecturer not expecting me to answer questions

I wouldn't guess that there were 3% of expats in Thailand that were "fluent".

[Deke]

My son once said that my spoken Thai sounds more natural than Mr. Biggs'. I thought he was taking the piss but apparently not. I can also speak comfortably round Thai six year olds. Speak about politics in Thai almost daily. I can read Thai and translate from Thai to English, but cannot write Thai to save my life. Thus, I would not count myself as fluent even though I may go many days at a time without speaking any English at all.

Never took a formal lesson in Thai language and the only book I had was the black bible "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language".

I agree that there are different levels of fluency, but do not agree that fluency can only be gained through formal study as some seem to believe.

Wow. This mirrors my experience almost exactly. Even down to the book.

I have no problems whatsoever with conversation or even making presentations in front of a group. I can read and translate from Thai to English but because I never really learned the "theory", my attempts at writing are abysmal.

[kriswillems]

I know only 2 groups of farang that are fluent in Thai:

The first group are some people on this forum (f.i. Rikker on Changkui or Stuart Jay on several TV shows)

The second group are farang that grew up in Thailand.

It would be nice to meet some of the fluent people. I am really interested in the story of their Thai language study.

[DavidHouston]

Kris, For a discussion with fluent Thai speakers, see http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/succes...jonathan-thames and similar interviewees

I know only 2 groups of farang that are fluent in Thai:

The first group are some people on this forum (f.i. Rikker on Changkui or Stuart Jay on several TV shows)

The second group are farang that grew up in Thailand.

It would be nice to meet some of the fluent people. I am really interested in the story of their Thai language study.

[bhoydy]

My Mum always used to say to me, oh you must be fluent in Thai by now. I have never agreed with her. I can hold conversations depending on the subject. Some subjects just floor me, a good example would be taking my motorbike to get fixed because i don't know any vocabulary apart from เครื่อง. So i would say i am conversant. I can read and write conversational Thai (i mostly use it on MSN). I've never been to any class and have learned from books. The biggest help for me was Chaing Mai University's course book. I sometimes get the tone or the vowel wrong but all these things take time, and that is that i have so i will continue at my own pace.

[desi]

Kris, For a discussion with fluent Thai speakers, see http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/succes...jonathan-thames and similar interviewees

You'd think that it'd be easy to find expats fluent in Thai. Those coming in via the Peace Corps are well-trained, as are those attending the various SE Asian studies courses at uni. Needing to speak Thai for work does not always come into it, nor does having a Thai wife.

[PeaceBlondie]

Three expats, all of them Americans, in seven years have seemed fully fluent. All spent over 20 years here, mastering it.

Never met a half-decent teacher of Thai.

[SoftWater]

Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/user/davidvlong