Red Shirts Plan To Paralyse Bangkok, Topple Thai Government

[frodo]

Think it's becoming clear they are intending on provoking the people of Bangkok, along with the military, into a reaction.

To what purpose will this serve?

Sad to say, I believe that's correct. Reading the post last night, the UDD is offering nice sums of money for photos and videos of brutality against them. From that point, they will immediately send these to the US, UK, Japan, etc., to show their version of the truth. I don't care what others think in regards to Thaksin and his involvement, but he is behind this 100%, and is still trying in every manipulative and distorted way to show the world he is the victim. Naturally, all this will backfire. Other nations have been briefed and know very well what is happening. It just won't work. The self proclaimed leaders such as Sae Daeng, Arisiman, et al., have nice statements on public record advocating violence.

Thaksin lost major face on the international stage a year ago by lying about the military killing hundreds of protesters. I'm sure he has another speech prepared for the world, and this time he wants to make sure he is right. Selfishness knows no bounds.

[frodo]

Quoting Thai At Heart et al...

Can't blame Abhisit for not wanting blood on his hands. If the reds, and i say again if, run amok and begin their terrorizing, murdering people, hurling moltov's, etc., they will certainly be deserving of whatever consequences are given to them. They have been warned numerous times about this. It's in their hands now, and how they want it to play out is really up to them. They can protest peacefully as is their right. Destruction, mayhem, and murder are not a constitutional right, though some seem to think this is the case.

Abhisit and Suthep has been very fair about this and have called for peace, unlike the a few UDD leaders who are saying the opposite and want confrontation.

The other English language paper is running a similar story with a more accurate summary of what was said. It states that Abhisit later went on to say that he didn't believe his resignation or a dissolution would help the situation.

Highly irresponsible reporting by The Nation.

If that is what he said, indeed it is ridiculous reporting.

As for molotovs and murdering. They did burn up some stuff last time and despite what the UDD claim, it appears that no one was killed by the army. I trust that that is the plan this time.

What I meant was the murders were at the hands of the reds on innocent people, not the military killing anyone.

[Thai at Heart]

Is this how they are going to do this? All the major intersections in the town will be blocked?

a. Lak Si - Moving to Pahonyotin and Vibhahvadi Rangsit to Sanam Luang

b. Bangna Intersection - Moving to Sukhumvit to Sanam Luang

c. Din Daeng - Via Vibhavadi to Sanam Luang

d. City Hall Nonthaburi - into Sanam Luang

e. Wongwian Yai to Sanam Luang

Is this completely correct?

[Insight]

Depends if their intent is to protest or to cause chaos. If the "people of Bangkok" have any sense they will stay well out of it. Reds v Populous with the Army in the middle in confrontation would get way out of control very very quickly. If that happens, the army will find it very difficult to control the situation.

If the army keep their poise they should be able to handle anything that comes their way much like Songkran last year.

As to what they hope to achieve, if the chaos is bad enough, I would imagine that Abhisit would step down and dissolve Parliament, and I bet the army isn't going to let that happen.

Never, ever, ever, no way. The army says what goes in this town right now and he is definitely the least worst option by a very wide margin.

Even with political differences aside (and the news about landing at Siriaj), hard to do if there's a feeling of being held hostage by them - no?

[termad]

why do non thai posters seem to be negative about the supporters of thaksin, like him or not these are ordinary people for whom the previous regime was of benefit so they like and support him and his policy.

i really dont know if he was good or bad when compared to others but i do know that those wearing yellow shirts are anti democracy as they have stated so the question is, if the choice is to have a vote or not to have a vote, who would you vote for?

If you had read the news in Thailand over the last five years you'd know just how bad he is. Don't come in with "I really don't know if he was good or bad when compared to other." The big difference is that Thaksin flouted his corruption and he tried to crush any media that was critical of him or his projects. He cancelled a big land auction so that his wife could bid and he made sure she was the only bidder. He made sure his phone company didn't have to pay the same fees as its competitors, he hid assets even in his maid's name. 3,000 people were killed in his war on drugs.

If you are going to reply to somebody you should at least get the basic facts correct.

Which big land auction did he cancel? The land auction that you mention was a free and fair auction. The names of all bidders were printed in the Press after the Court case together with the value of each of their bids. The Police thoroughly investigated the auction and could find no wrong doing of any kind that is why Pojamon (Thaksin's wife) was found innocent of all charges and will get her Bt600 million refunded to her.

The only charge against Taksin was that in Thai law the spouse of a Minister is not allowed to do business with a Government department and for that he received a 2 year gaol sentence. This is the reason why it would be impossible to extradite him from, I think, any country because:

(a) no criminal motives to defraud, conspire or to seek to gain monetary rewards through criminal means have been established.

( I doubt that any extradition treaty Thailand has covers what is in fact a technical charge and obviously whether he knew that his wife (who is very successsful business woman in her own right) was bidding for the property is something that nobody knows.

You really should check your facts because the rest of your post is also incrrect.

[termad]

Quoting Thai At Heart et al...

Can't blame Abhisit for not wanting blood on his hands. If the reds, and i say again if, run amok and begin their terrorizing, murdering people, hurling moltov's, etc., they will certainly be deserving of whatever consequences are given to them. They have been warned numerous times about this. It's in their hands now, and how they want it to play out is really up to them. They can protest peacefully as is their right. Destruction, mayhem, and murder are not a constitutional right, though some seem to think this is the case.

Abhisit and Suthep has been very fair about this and have called for peace, unlike the a few UDD leaders who are saying the opposite and want confrontation.

The other English language paper is running a similar story with a more accurate summary of what was said. It states that Abhisit later went on to say that he didn't believe his resignation or a dissolution would help the situation.

Highly irresponsible reporting by The Nation.

If that is what he said, indeed it is ridiculous reporting.

As for molotovs and murdering. They did burn up some stuff last time and despite what the UDD claim, it appears that no one was killed by the army. I trust that that is the plan this time.

You missed out the bit where Abhisit admitted in a TV interview that "volunteers" have been recruited from the Interior Ministry. What are they going to do this weekend, serve tea and cakes?

[Thai at Heart]

Depends if their intent is to protest or to cause chaos. If the "people of Bangkok" have any sense they will stay well out of it. Reds v Populous with the Army in the middle in confrontation would get way out of control very very quickly. If that happens, the army will find it very difficult to control the situation.

If the army keep their poise they should be able to handle anything that comes their way much like Songkran last year.

As to what they hope to achieve, if the chaos is bad enough, I would imagine that Abhisit would step down and dissolve Parliament, and I bet the army isn't going to let that happen.

Never, ever, ever, no way. The army says what goes in this town right now and he is definitely the least worst option by a very wide margin.

Even with political differences aside (and the news about landing at Siriaj), hard to do if there's a feeling of being held hostage by them - no?

I would suggest that one of the absolutely fundamental reasons to have a law such as the ISA would be to prevent exactly what you envisage happening. I would completely support martial law in that context.

[ballpoint]

Think it's becoming clear they are intending on provoking the people of Bangkok, along with the military, into a reaction.

To what purpose will this serve?

This is a big crap shoot for them. The last one? We can hope. Clearly they want to get media of the government doing bad things to the protesters (even if provoked as it no doubt will be). Then their plan is to rile up more of the people against the government and also to gain international support of people who don't know the real truth about Thaksin. They imagine they are like the Iranian protesters that most of the world supports. Of course they are not, but that's the propaganda they are going for.

As with last songkran, they are putting great importance on the international view. It spectacularly backfired on them then, highlighted by the Jim Clancey interview of Thaksin on CNN, where he was called out on a number of lies he tried to state. This time they seem to be raising the stakes, with the appointment of an international media liaison, and the whole charade of calling for 20,000 monks to protest, knowing that they will stand out on international television, yet won't have the same impact when viewed by Thais. I wonder if it's all it's cracked up to be though, this "international support"? What happened to Ahmadinejad following the brutal suppression of the opposition in Iran? If the Thai government does what it should have done last year and removes all further threat of violent uprising from the red shirts, by whatever means, what will really happen? There will no doubt be condemnation from a number of Western democracies, but can the international community really live with Thailand as a pariah state? Will the western, and Asian, companies move out en mass? Sure, they can set up shop elsewhere, but would they really risk losing the billions of dollars of investment on the Eastern Seaboard? It would also be quite hypocritical of them, as they were perfectly willing to invest in the country when Thaksin's gangs were on the rampage, killing innocents (before proven guilty), killing opposing figures (Shipping Moo et al), and suffocating muslims in the back of trucks. This government has the right to ensure these protests are conducted peacefully, to stamp out any violence at its source, and, if it erupts into a repeat of Songkran, ensure that such an event never happens again. Obviously, the red supporters here will heartily agree, as they have been telling us for days that the reds will not carry weapons or use violence, therefore any one caught doing so by the powers is obviously one of these "third hands" we've been warned about, and therefore deserves their punishment for inciting trouble.

I wonder if Thaksin will allow an interview with CNN this time? If so, do you think he'll read the same script as last year?

[Old Man River]

Quoting Thai At Heart et al...

Can't blame Abhisit for not wanting blood on his hands. If the reds, and i say again if, run amok and begin their terrorizing, murdering people, hurling moltov's, etc., they will certainly be deserving of whatever consequences are given to them. They have been warned numerous times about this. It's in their hands now, and how they want it to play out is really up to them. They can protest peacefully as is their right. Destruction, mayhem, and murder are not a constitutional right, though some seem to think this is the case.

Abhisit and Suthep has been very fair about this and have called for peace, unlike the a few UDD leaders who are saying the opposite and want confrontation.

The other English language paper is running a similar story with a more accurate summary of what was said. It states that Abhisit later went on to say that he didn't believe his resignation or a dissolution would help the situation.

Highly irresponsible reporting by The Nation.

Abhisit has been clear about this. Let's stay on track. It doesn't matter which paper says what. House dissolution is not what this is all about, despite many of the red shirts thinking it is. It is simply about supplanting one set of elite for another.

[Thai at Heart]

You missed out the bit where Abhisit admitted in a TV interview that "volunteers" have been recruited from the Interior Ministry. What are they going to do this weekend, serve tea and cakes?

Oh dear. I forgot about that. No why with one of the worlds largest conscripted armies would you want volunteers. They bringin them pitcfurks? Gunna hav uz a hangin?

Are these similar to the wonderful volunteers that were drafted in at short notice in Pattaya? Well, of course there is only one outcome for that. Now please tell me WHY would the government go and do that? They got a shortage of soldiers?

[termad]

Are you sure about this 'fact'?  

Yes sir, i am. Absolutely and 100% sure.

Best regards....

Thanh

Al Capone bought the whole Police department, the town council and two local judges of a town outside Chicago - was that town's administration legal?

[rixalex]

The only charge against Taksin was that in Thai law the spouse of a Minister is not allowed to do business with a Government department

Important to remember that there has only been one charge because Thaksin fled justice. There is a whole stack of cases against him that have been stalled by his absense.

[jdinasia]

Are you sure about this 'fact'?

Yes sir, i am. Absolutely and 100% sure.

Best regards....

Thanh

Al Capone bought the whole Police department, the town council and two local judges of a town outside Chicago - was that town's administration legal?

What would that type of fallacious argument be called? inept comparison or just a straw-man?

[termad]

The only charge against Taksin was that in Thai law the spouse of a Minister is not allowed to do business with a Government department

Important to remember that there has only been one charge because Thaksin fled justice. There is a whole stack of cases against him that have been stalled by his absense.

The charge is not one of fleeing justice it is only that his wife did business with a Goverment agency even though no wrong doing was proved.

As to other charges that may be brought I don't see how you can comment until they are brought before the courts.

[Thai at Heart]

On another channel, Suthep has apparently said that in order to protect the safety of the King and Queen, that all routes to Siriraj Hospital by land or water are off limits to protesters.

Seems we have an impasse ladies and gentlemen.

[Moonrakers]

The only charge against Taksin was that in Thai law the spouse of a Minister is not allowed to do business with a Government department

Important to remember that there has only been one charge because Thaksin fled justice. There is a whole stack of cases against him that have been stalled by his absense.

The charge is not one of fleeing justice it is only that his wife did business with a Goverment agency even though no wrong doing was proved.

As to other charges that may be brought I don't see how you can comment until they are brought before the courts.

He is guilty as sin, get over it.

[termad]

Are you sure about this 'fact'?

Yes sir, i am. Absolutely and 100% sure.

Best regards....

Thanh

Al Capone bought the whole Police department, the town council and two local judges of a town outside Chicago - was that town's administration legal?

What would that type of fallacious argument be called? inept comparison or just a straw-man?

It is an entirely fair comparison unless you consider buying a police department. a , town council and two judges superior to buying Government which controls all Police Departments in the country and justice/democracy (or the lack of it) for all.

[rixalex]

The only charge against Taksin was that in Thai law the spouse of a Minister is not allowed to do business with a Government department

Important to remember that there has only been one charge because Thaksin fled justice. There is a whole stack of cases against him that have been stalled by his absense.

The charge is not one of fleeing justice it is only that his wife did business with a Goverment agency even though no wrong doing was proved.

You misread my meaning. I wasn't saying that he was charged with fleeing justice (although obviously that should carry a charge too), i was saying that he has only been charged once because the other cases against him are unable to proceed, thanks to him not being here.

As to other charges that may be brought I don't see how you can comment until they are brought before the courts.

My own feeling is that if a suspect refuses to show in court it should be deemed as an admission of guilt. Seems very fair.

[blaze]

It is true, both yellow and red are minorities in the country. The problem is that the ordinary, working Thais do not care or are too busy or simply not interested in politics and just want their quiet and relaxed life without mobs in the streets etc.

The problem about elections in Thailand is, that those elections are never free, secret and direct. A lot of money and bribes exchange hands which leads to certain results.

To me, Thailand is by far not ready for democracy, due to the lack of qualified and clean politicians and the lack of a general certain level of education, especially in the rural areas.

If you want to achieve a stable political system it would be the first step to improve education, but that's a long term approach, which will not help in the actual situation.

No easy way out I am afraid.

Education and to some degree using government policy to iron out the worst of the iniquities and gradual erosion of the owrst corruption is the long term way out. It is I agree a long and painful path if even attempted.

My feeling is now that all sides have this weekend unleashed something and everyone realises they are no longer in control of it. Anything or if we are lucky nothing could happen

In one sense I could suggest that I know of very few education systems that have, in modern times, been as effective as the Thai. Those things which the society insists its young ingest- have been learned well. What the redshirts are doing now is completely counter to what they have been taught to do- they are opposing 'the system'- this, in spite of an education system that has trained them to regard the 'system' as infallible. Of course, it can also be argued that their amenability to being manipulated by Thaksin reflects that in fact, nothing has changed. But I suspect that for more than a few, Thaksin is regarded as nothing more than a symbol- a rallying point. That you don't have to love THaksin to want to change the system that persecuted and prosecuted him.

Edited March 11, 2010 by blaze

[elcent]

Hats off before this man

Or is it a tactic that some at least please come forward? Kinda like this?

-- The Nation 11/03/10

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Thursday pledged to overcome the political volatility, to rein in the situation through security measures and not to allow a coup under any circumstances.

"I am not trying to cling to power as I am willing to resign or dissolve the House if this can be a solution but I will not allow a coup to happen," he said.

Abhisit was speaking at the House session to reply to an urgent motion on political volatility.

The government will uphold the constitutional right to a peaceful and unarmed assembly, the prime minister said, explaining security measures have been designed to keep peace and deter protesters from crossing the legal limits.

Acts of intimidation, seizures of government offices, obstructing officials from doing their job and disturbances were not sanctioned by the Constitution and the Administrative Court ruling on October 9, 2008 outlined the legal limits, he said.

He said the enforcement of the internal security law was designed to preempt the eruption of violence. He dismissed concern about cracking down on protesters.

In regard to speculation on power seizure, he said the government and all parties concered were obligated to check the downward spiral of the situation in order to deny the pretext to stage a coup

Edited March 11, 2010 by elcent

[frodo]

On another channel, Suthep has apparently said that in order to protect the safety of the King and Queen, that all routes to Siriraj Hospital by land or water are off limits to protesters.

Seems we have an impasse ladies and gentlemen.

There goes that plan and some rethinking on the reds part. I don't think too many Thai's would approve of disrupting these highly respected people. Then again, if they try, the consequences can be severe and well deserved. They have been warned and should know better educated or not.

[jdinasia]

Al Capone bought the whole Police department, the town council and two local judges of a town outside Chicago - was that town's administration legal?

What would that type of fallacious argument be called? inept comparison or just a straw-man?

It is an entirely fair comparison unless you consider buying a police department. a , town council and two judges superior to buying Government which controls all Police Departments in the country and justice/democracy (or the lack of it) for all.

inept comparison AND Strawman it is

Comparing a convicted felon (that they had to get on Tax charges) against a legitimate seated Prime Minister?

Comparing the MP's of a country who voted for the current government to the bought politicians, police, and 2 judges that you say Capone used? ... oh yeah .. great comparison! (note-- for the inept that IS sarcasm!)

edit --- there would, however, be points of comparison between Thaksin and Capone. Initial takedown on charges that were only vaguely related to their real crimes (but that they were both 100% guilty of!)

Edited March 11, 2010 by jdinasia

[TAWP]

Various people have said the present government is a legitimate government. With a scheduled election (legitimate) being sidelined by the coup everything that came after the coup is tainted with the same poison....including the Dec 07 elections. The country needs free elections without the military involved to leave the past behind.

Bingo.

that is the point. and the lesson to learn is that coups are bad for a civil society and that coup supporters or those who benefit from it cannot claim Win and that they are decent and legit and trying to get away with it.

and that it take an awful long time until the damage done by the Coup is repaired.

Nonsense. What you are saying is that even if a government is legit you will reserve yourself the right to 'out' any government you don't like if they are not the one you support, no matter how they got there.

where is the nonsense?

i am saying Coups are bad. having an unpredictable outcome and it is better for the sake of a civil society to refrain from such acts.

that the current situation can't not be seen and interpreted without taking the 2006 coup into consideration.

and isn't only the coup, if i look at the certain members in the cabinet of this government i can spot role models or blue print cases how mob actions in the street get later, after the 'victory' rewarded.

the legitimacy of this government is flawed and spoiled.

With your logic the governments preceding the coup was flawed and spoiled too. You don't hold the pen to mark when a government is within or outside the taint of previous coups.

[Sabre]

Yes, there was another thread here yesterday or so showing what the payments were. Something like 300B per person and a decent amount for the truck driver. No way they would get a large crowd if there was no money involved.

It's becoming a true circus...almost fun to read now. Except I need to visit Bangkok Saturday! May have to cancel that trip....

It amazes me that some people still think this is a rent-a-crowd. I'm not saying that people haven't been paid, but would you make the journey to bangkok, risking life and limb, for 300 Baht? Even for the rural poor, that is nowhere near enough money to motivate somebody to do what the red shirts are doing. Until they are recognised as having legitimate grievances, the problem is only going to get worse.

[TAWP]

why do non thai posters seem to be negative about the supporters of thaksin, like him or not these are ordinary people for whom the previous regime was of benefit so they like and support him and his policy.

i really dont know if he was good or bad when compared to others but i do know that those wearing yellow shirts are anti democracy as they have stated so the question is, if the choice is to have a vote or not to have a vote, who would you vote for?

If you had read the news in Thailand over the last five years you'd know just how bad he is. Don't come in with "I really don't know if he was good or bad when compared to other." The big difference is that Thaksin flouted his corruption and he tried to crush any media that was critical of him or his projects. He cancelled a big land auction so that his wife could bid and he made sure she was the only bidder. He made sure his phone company didn't have to pay the same fees as its competitors, he hid assets even in his maid's name. 3,000 people were killed in his war on drugs.

If you are going to reply to somebody you should at least get the basic facts correct.

Which big land auction did he cancel? The land auction that you mention was a free and fair auction. The names of all bidders were printed in the Press after the Court case together with the value of each of their bids. The Police thoroughly investigated the auction and could find no wrong doing of any kind that is why Pojamon (Thaksin's wife) was found innocent of all charges and will get her Bt600 million refunded to her.

Incorrect, they could not sentence her since that was not the scope of the trial or the court. They could only punish the actual member of the government in question that the court had any say over, i.e. Thaksin.

And to claim police investigated her actions and found no wrong-doings...you are funny. Maybe you should check what the trial was even about.

And nice jumping over of the other things he listed in his post.

[frodo]

I am rather happy to see the US asking the reds not to resort to violence

The US Embassy in Bangkok has issued a statement, calling for the red shirts protesters and their leaders who are scheduled to conduct a mass rally this weekend not to use violence and to exercise their right to assemble and protest peacefully. The statement also encouraged the Thai government to exercise suitable restraint.

"Thailand is a close friend and ally of the United States. And as a long-time friend, we are closely watching the current situation in Thailand. The United States believes that differences should be addressed through Thailand's democratic institutions and not through violence," read the statement.

The Nation

Full press release from the US Embassy:

"Statement on Planned Political Demonstrations

Thailand is a close friend and ally of the United States.

And as a long-time friend, we are closely watching the current situation in Thailand. The United States believes that differences should be addressed through Thailand’s democratic institutions and not through violence.

Peaceful demonstrations are a hallmark of a democratic society. We call on protesters and their leaders to forswear the use of violence and to exercise their right to assemble and protest peacefully, in accordance with the law. We also encourage the Royal Thai Government to exercise appropriate restraint."

US Embassy

Edited March 11, 2010 by frodo

[Sabre]

My own feeling is that if a suspect refuses to show in court it should be deemed as an admission of guilt. Seems very fair.

You have obviously not seen much of the world.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Sabre

[bartender100]

Are there any live news feeds covering the rally, im in the UK right now

[way2muchcoffee]

Al Capone bought the whole Police department, the town council and two local judges of a town outside Chicago - was that town's administration legal?

It is an entirely fair comparison unless you consider buying a police department. a , town council and two judges superior to buying Government which controls all Police Departments in the country and justice/democracy (or the lack of it) for all.

Excellent posts Termad. You have clearly and succinctly outlined some of the primary arguments in support of the 2006 coup.

Edited March 11, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[rainman]

Are there any live news feeds covering the rally, im in the UK right now

It hasn't even started yet.