U.s. Social Security Survivor's Benefits

[JimGant]

So, your argument is that the US Treasury will default on its bonds.

Huh? My point was that Social Security is in deficit *now* -- not 26 years from now....

The IOU's sitting in the SS trust fund are intragovernmental debt -- loans to itself -- and strictly symbolic. SS is already an entitlement by law (laws, of course, can be changed), so no one needs to wave an IOU to get his monthly SS check. Today, once the supply of greenbacks runs out from SS tax collections, the SS Administration will then exchange IOUs for greenbacks to meet its payout obligation. Several years down the road, assuming SS hasn't been tweaked and thus still in deficit (bad assumption), the last IOU will be traded for a greenback. Then what? Then the SS Administration will still get the greenbacks it needs, from the same source -- but can now eliminate the worthless ritual of exchanging worthless paper for those greenbacks.

Let the Treasury default on its bonds, then -- at least the intragovernmental variety. It's all a shell game, and not like these IOU's represent investments outside the Federal gov't.

Haven't fallen asleep? Hot off the press CLICK HERE

[flying]

So, your argument is that the US Treasury will default on its bonds. Not. Going. To. Happen. That's my opinion and the more influential opinion of the bond market. Ten year Treasury yields would look like Greek bonds if the bond market thought the US would default. But if you think so, please short Treasuries and rake in a fortune.

IMO your thinking is limited by your definition of default.

They are defaulting as we speak.

Yes the USA is large & is the world reserve currency.

As such it will not default in a classic sense.

They can print till the cows come home.

But when they double the money supply do you think the dime you already held is now worth two nickels?

Will they also double the size of the SS checks?

When you last said...

Why on earth would you be worrying about the deficit? Assuming you are an American, you have lived with deficits your whole life. Did it ever have an effect on your life that you could see?

I can only assume you have no knowledge of the current US deficit & how it differs from any previous deficit.

Has the FED ever in history monetized the debt as they do now?

Did the FED ever buy billions of their own debt with yet more of their own paper before?

You understand they are buying their own IOU's now? With more IOU's?

http://www.ny.frb.org/markets/tot_operation_schedule.html

To believe that this level of debt monetization will continue without repercussions is both naive and ridiculous.

Yes I can see the effect it is having on my life.

I and millions of others living in the USA are in fact *seeing* & feeling the effects daily.

As State budgets fail & more & more services/jobs are being cut.

It is a domino effect & will continue because BS numbers aside UE is still raging & that in turn means less taxes being paid.

Lastly as others have said plainly.....SS is a tax nothing more...It is not an absolute

When payouts exceed contributions any insurance will eventually fail.

Nothing is set in stone & I have been self employed my whole life. As such I would not mind if someday I get something back for all the taxes they hit me for. But I do not plan my life or future hopes on it.

Edited February 27, 2011 by flying

[CaptHaddock]

removed accidental post

Edited February 27, 2011 by CaptHaddock

[CaptHaddock]

So, your argument is that the US Treasury will default on its bonds. Not. Going. To. Happen. That's my opinion and the more influential opinion of the bond market. Ten year Treasury yields would look like Greek bonds if the bond market thought the US would default. But if you think so, please short Treasuries and rake in a fortune.

IMO your thinking is limited by your definition of default.

They are defaulting as we speak.

Yes the USA is large & is the world reserve currency.

As such it will not default in a classic sense.

They can print till the cows come home.

But when they double the money supply do you think the dime you already held is now worth two nickels?

Will they also double the size of the SS checks?

When you last said...

Why on earth would you be worrying about the deficit? Assuming you are an American, you have lived with deficits your whole life. Did it ever have an effect on your life that you could see?

I can only assume you have no knowledge of the current US deficit & how it differs from any previous deficit.

Has the FED ever in history monetized the debt as they do now?

Did the FED ever buy billions of their own debt with yet more of their own paper before?

You understand they are buying their own IOU's now? With more IOU's?

http://www.ny.frb.or...n_schedule.html

To believe that this level of debt monetization will continue without repercussions is both naive and ridiculous.

Yes I can see the effect it is having on my life.

I and millions of others living in the USA are in fact *seeing* & feeling the effects daily.

As State budgets fail & more & more services/jobs are being cut.

It is a domino effect & will continue because BS numbers aside UE is still raging & that in turn means less taxes being paid.

Lastly as others have said plainly.....SS is a tax nothing more...It is not an absolute

When payouts exceed contributions any insurance will eventually fail.

Nothing is set in stone & I have been self employed my whole life. As such I would not mind if someday I get something back for all the taxes they hit me for. But I do not plan my life or future hopes on it.

What you are refer to as an "IOU" is more commonly called a "bond." Default means a failure to pay those bonds.

State budgets are failing because of the national deficit? That would be a ridiculous notion if it were even coherent. State budgets are failing because of the loss of tax revenue due to the continuing effects of the Great Recession caused by unregulated lending of banks, mortgage lenders, AIG, investment banks, etc. The effects you are seeing are the effects of the recession. If the Republicans succeed in their plan to reduce national and state govt spending, those effects will get worse, not better.

The US is not printing money. This is the year-over-year growth of M2 from the St. Louis Fed. Where is this doubling of the money supply?

You are free to believe all the received opinions from right-wing radio, if you like.

[oldsailor35]

Thank you for contacting the Social Security Administration.

1) Your benefit amount is the same whether your are married, single or divorced.

2) Unless your spouse is a US citizen or a permanent resident (green card holder) she is not entitled to survivor benefits.

Which is one of the good reasons we stay in the US for awhile.

Of course the main one being work & we enjoy our place here. My wife also has a good job & is a permanent resident soon to be a US citizen & will enjoy dual citizenship which she looks forward too.

I didn't think Thai's could have dual citizenship? I was under the impression they had to choose one or the other when they got to legal age as children of dual citizens and why should marriage change that?.

Ask ABHISIT ?

Edited February 28, 2011 by metisdead
Corrected the misspelling of PM's name.

[Wrong Turn]

Reading more of this thread - I've read the entirety of it - and I'm surprised that anyone would think a Thai wife that never work in the US, and never paid taxes has a right to one cent.

SS is broken already. Lastly, we don't need foreign wives getting anything.

(Yes, I know about the rule of living in the US for X amount of years, to qualify.)

[flying]

What you are refer to as an "IOU" is more commonly called a "bond." Default means a failure to pay those bonds.

State budgets are failing because of the national deficit? That would be a ridiculous notion if it were even coherent. State budgets are failing because of the loss of tax revenue due to the continuing effects of the Great Recession caused by unregulated lending of banks, mortgage lenders, AIG, investment banks, etc. The effects you are seeing are the effects of the recession. If the Republicans succeed in their plan to reduce national and state govt spending, those effects will get worse, not better.

The US is not printing money. This is the year-over-year growth of M2 from the St. Louis Fed. Where is this doubling of the money supply?

You are free to believe all the received opinions from right-wing radio, if you like.

Last post for me as we are waaaay OT

Yes... call the IOU what you want it does not matter as my point was....What is being used to buy the instrument. As I said it will not be a default in a classic sense...I see you do not understand what I wrote.

As for States....go re-read my post as you have it backwards hence your comment (ridiculous notion if it were even coherent)...Which again is due to your lack of comprehension of what I wrote.

Thanks for your M2 picture but,it is meaningless.....If you like go look at what M2 includes or more importantly what it does not include then think about it....or not

Lastly as to your right wing radio comment........I neither listen to right wing nor left as they are two wings of the same corrupt bird. But carry on listening to which ever you like

Take Care

[craigt3365]

One off topic post deleted. Let's get back to the OP. OK?

[Wrong Turn]

As for SS,

I don't dwell on it much becasue there's nothing I can do. I have to pay into it by law, as well as my employer.

I'm 41, and am told by the gov I'm "eligible" as of now, to collect at the age of 67.

I'll do my own planning, of course.

[lanny]

What you are refer to as an "IOU" is more commonly called a "bond." Default means a failure to pay those bonds.

State budgets are failing because of the national deficit? That would be a ridiculous notion if it were even coherent. State budgets are failing because of the loss of tax revenue due to the continuing effects of the Great Recession caused by unregulated lending of banks, mortgage lenders, AIG, investment banks, etc. The effects you are seeing are the effects of the recession. If the Republicans succeed in their plan to reduce national and state govt spending, those effects will get worse, not better.

The US is not printing money. This is the year-over-year growth of M2 from the St. Louis Fed. Where is this doubling of the money supply?

You are free to believe all the received opinions from right-wing radio, if you like.

Last post for me as we are waaaay OT

Yes... call the IOU what you want it does not matter as my point was....What is being used to buy the instrument. As I said it will not be a default in a classic sense...I see you do not understand what I wrote.

As for States....go re-read my post as you have it backwards hence your comment (ridiculous notion if it were even coherent)...Which again is due to your lack of comprehension of what I wrote.

Thanks for your M2 picture but,it is meaningless.....If you like go look at what M2 includes or more importantly what it does not include then think about it....or not

Lastly as to your right wing radio comment........I neither listen to right wing nor left as they are two wings of the same corrupt bird. But carry on listening to which ever you like

Take Care

My question to you is: "What would you have the social security fund invest in? Or, would you prefer that they stockpile the actual cash?" When they take in more than they pay out, what should they do with the excess?

Any insurance type scheme must do something with the money they collect. Just holding on to the cash will not provide the benefits promised. Therefore, they have to invest in something that will pay an income. The alternative to US bonds could only be the stock market. Given the size of the SS fund, that would make them the largest stockholder in the country and when they had to cash in their investments, it would drive the stock market down. How would that be avoided?

[craigt3365]

One more off topic post deleted. Please stay on topic!!!!

[BB1955]

I also got the same information. If your wife is or has not resided in USA for 5 years, forget it. She is likely not going to be happy hearing such news. Unfortunately, Thai women ASSUME a lot of things, when getting involved with a foreigner. Most of them have no awareness of all the various financial pitfalls involved and each country of origin (of the man) is different. The women generally have no concept of this.

You also must have been married for ten years as I understand it .... 5 of those ten years she must have resided with you in the USA . Thing that gets me more than anything is my wife worked 6 years in the USA and paid in but because she did not make it 40 quarters she can not collect when she reaches retirment age . But she will be able to collect when I am no longer around .....

[mouse]

I looked into SS benifits for a Thai wife a short while ago and believe I remember correctly that the spouse needs to live in the US or it's possessions a total of 5 years - not necessarily consecutive. An accumulation of 5 years should be enough. This may make a big difference for some. I have not taken the time to look it up but thought it worth mentioning.

Your are not totally correct with the 5 year rule. There are many exception to this rule under both Social Security and VA pension policies

example a.) If the sponsor died on active duty.

example b.) If the sponsor died of a service connected disability as a result of hostile action in a combat environment.

We at the VFW have found that each and every case is different with many factors being considered.

Recently, we were able to obtain a Social Security pension for a Widow, whom the State Department had turned away, as being not eligible

Widows may also be eligible for a DIC pension, if their spouses died after having served 60 days during a wartime period.

Last but least if all fails and they have no income or assets, other than their home and a vehicle, a Widows Pension may be applied for.

Plan early, make a US and Thai will, is our advise. If you wife comes to the VFW for help, after your demise, we will do our best to help her.

Another important note: Have your Thai wife sign nothing before talking to us. We have had Widows that lost a lot as they assigned the entitlements to others unknowingly.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

So you think the american taxpayer should pay for someone who has never paid a cent into the system ??? Not with my tax dollars, you bought her now YOU pay for her.

But when an American expat files taxes (joint filing w/ Thai wife) her income must be included, so she is paying US taxes but will not get anything from it in terms of SS benefits.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Awohalitsiktoli

[Wrong Turn]

So you think the american taxpayer should pay for someone who has never paid a cent into the system ??? Not with my tax dollars, you bought her now YOU pay for her.

But when an American expat files taxes (joint filing w/ Thai wife) her income must be included, so she is paying US taxes but will not get anything from it in terms of SS benefits.

An American expat only pays taxes at the income level of $82,000 per year (I think it's now $85K per year).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a foreigner (non-US citizen) living in a foreign (non-US country) does not pay tax to the US government because he or she is married to an American expat.

Furthermore, the Thai wife does not have an SS number, so therefore the Thai wife AND her employer are NOT paying into SS.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

So you think the american taxpayer should pay for someone who has never paid a cent into the system ??? Not with my tax dollars, you bought her now YOU pay for her.

But when an American expat files taxes (joint filing w/ Thai wife) her income must be included, so she is paying US taxes but will not get anything from it in terms of SS benefits.

An American expat only pays taxes at the income level of $82,000 per year (I think it's now $85K per year).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a foreigner (non-US citizen) living in a foreign (non-US country) does not pay tax to the US government because he or she is married to an American expat.

Furthermore, the Thai wife does not have an SS number, so therefore the Thai wife AND her employer are NOT paying into SS.

Yes, an American expat does have a "foreign income exclusion" that is fairly high. But, as far as I know, the expat, if filing jointly, MUST include his wife's income even if she is a foreigner. A Thai wife does have something similar to a SS# that the IRS issues for tax purposes. I can't remember what it is called. I am not a tax expert.

[bunta71]

Let me try another tact here. I'm just a little mystified by the entitlement culture back home.

Perhaps the mystery will become a little clearer with this analogy....When you make your last car payment you are "entitled" to title of some sort/name. You paid for it, have done as you promised. The usage of the words "entitlement culture" when in a negative context are rhetorical, right wing, buzz words that distort reality yet are believed by some.

I started paying into SS when I was 14 and I am entitled to it and can proudly say this with my head held high. There are solutions to the funding for the future also.Higher SS payroll limits, etc. I have made some incredibly stupid financial moves throughout my life in terms of disregarding my future, but SS wasn't one of them.

[villagefarang]

Let me try another tact here. I'm just a little mystified by the entitlement culture back home.

Perhaps the mystery will become a little clearer with this analogy....When you make your last car payment you are "entitled" to title of some sort/name. You paid for it, have done as you promised. The usage of the words "entitlement culture" when in a negative context are rhetorical, right wing, buzz words that distort reality yet are believed by some.

I started paying into SS when I was 14 and I am entitled to it and can proudly say this with my head held high. There are solutions to the funding for the future also.Higher SS payroll limits, etc. I have made some incredibly stupid financial moves throughout my life in terms of disregarding my future, but SS wasn't one of them.

Yeah good luck with that one. You might take a second to think back on how much you paid in total for that car by the time you paid it off and how much it was actually worth at that point. Hopefully you will do as well with your SS.

[RickThai]

Thank you for contacting the Social Security Administration.

1) Your benefit amount is the same whether your are married, single or divorced.

2) Unless your spouse is a US citizen or a permanent resident (green card holder) she is not entitled to survivor benefits.

Which is one of the good reasons we stay in the US for awhile.

Of course the main one being work & we enjoy our place here. My wife also has a good job & is a permanent resident soon to be a US citizen & will enjoy dual citizenship which she looks forward too.

I didn't think Thai's could have dual citizenship? I was under the impression they had to choose one or the other when they got to legal age as children of dual citizens and why should marriage change that?.

The USA does not recognize dual citizenship, but it is possible to be a US Citizen (naturalized) and still be a Thai citizen (i.e. have a Thai ID Card, passport, etc.).

RickThai

[BuckarooBanzai]

Yes, an American expat does have a "foreign income exclusion" that is fairly high. But, as far as I know, the expat, if filing jointly, MUST include his wife's income even if she is a foreigner. A Thai wife does have something similar to a SS# that the IRS issues for tax purposes. I can't remember what it is called. I am not a tax expert.

Called an ITIN or TIN for short (Individual Tax Identification Number).

[farang000999]

when the us gov gets done printing so much money to pay its obligations dont expect much purchasing power

[JimGant]

An American expat only pays taxes at the income level of $82,000 per year (I think it's now $85K per year).

The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion only applies to "earned" income (wages and salary). Most expats are not working -- so no exclusion, thus pensions, dividends, interest, IRA/401k cashouts, etc are subject to full taxation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a foreigner (non-US citizen) living in a foreign (non-US country) does not pay tax to the US government because he or she is married to an American expat.

Not per se. But a couple living in Thailand, to include a non-US spouse, can opt to file jointly, including the non-US income. The benefits of filing jointly can trump having to now pay US taxes on the spouse's otherwise US tax exempt income (up to a fairly large amount). In most cases, however, where we're talking about non-working Thai spouses, opting to file a joint return is a no-brainer. (There's a thread about this floating around somewhere on this forum.)

And, yes, for such joint filing the wife must obtain an ITIN.

Nothing about filing a joint 1040 includes payment of Social Security or Medicare taxes (FICA taxes).

[JimGant]

The USA does not recognize dual citizenship

It recognizes it -- but doesn't encourage it.

[RickThai]

The USA does not recognize dual citizenship

It recognizes it -- but doesn't encourage it.

From the US Department of State website:

"U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. "

I guess I interpret that as "does not recognize", but each to his own.

Rick

[JimGant]

Well, not to get into semantics.... Bottom line: US law does not forbid holding two (or more) citizenships.

"The official US State Department policy on dual citizenship today is that the United States does not favor it as a matter of policy because of various problems they feel it may cause, but the existence of dual citizenship is recognized (i.e., accepted) as a fact of life."

[honoluludave]

Okay I understand that you thai wife will not be able to collect your survivor benefits. But what about your children with your thai wife?

[thaibeachlovers]

ss is a ponzi scheme. none us should expect what we deserve.

Nope. Not even remotely true. In a ponzi scheme the investors all expect to be paid a return on their investments and get their principal back. But that cannot happen because the money has been stolen. Under Social Security, which is an insurance scheme, wage earners pay in to buy insurance that protects them against being old and poor. But, only the survivors can collect. This feature is called the mortality credit. SS only pays you while you are alive.

As long as the US economy grows there will be enough to pay all the promised benefits, including planned increases in real payouts.

I think you are forgetting the 14 ( and growing ) trillion $ debt. No way can the US government keep kicking the can down the road. Expect Greece style riots and similar cuts anytime soon.

[thaibeachlovers]

Let me try another tact here. I'm just a little mystified by the entitlement culture back home.

Perhaps the mystery will become a little clearer with this analogy....When you make your last car payment you are "entitled" to title of some sort/name. You paid for it, have done as you promised. The usage of the words "entitlement culture" when in a negative context are rhetorical, right wing, buzz words that distort reality yet are believed by some.

I started paying into SS when I was 14 and I am entitled to it and can proudly say this with my head held high. There are solutions to the funding for the future also.Higher SS payroll limits, etc. I have made some incredibly stupid financial moves throughout my life in terms of disregarding my future, but SS wasn't one of them.

You may be entitled, but not receive enough to live on.

The $14 trillion debt will make a mockery of any future planning, and that's assuming China doesn't ask for it's money back ( which the US couldn't pay ).

[mouse]

YES they can collect, if they have Social Security Numbers, Foreign Birth Abroad Birth Certificates.

Okay I understand that you thai wife will not be able to collect your survivor benefits. But what about your children with your thai wife?

[CaptHaddock]

ss is a ponzi scheme. none us should expect what we deserve.

Nope. Not even remotely true. In a ponzi scheme the investors all expect to be paid a return on their investments and get their principal back. But that cannot happen because the money has been stolen. Under Social Security, which is an insurance scheme, wage earners pay in to buy insurance that protects them against being old and poor. But, only the survivors can collect. This feature is called the mortality credit. SS only pays you while you are alive.

As long as the US economy grows there will be enough to pay all the promised benefits, including planned increases in real payouts.

I think you are forgetting the 14 ( and growing ) trillion $ debt. No way can the US government keep kicking the can down the road. Expect Greece style riots and similar cuts anytime soon.

The US can never become Greece because of a fundamental fact that you are overlooking: the US dollar. Since we have our own currency we can always print money to pay the national debt. The Greeks cannot print euros. Neither can they devalue the euro to make their labor costs more competitive and their exports cheaper. That is the problem with not having your own currency as the Argentines found out in 2001 - 2002. (The peso was pegged to the USD, one for one. So, effectively their currency was the USD.)

Currently the US national debt is about 65% of GDP. At the end of WWII it was 120% of GDP. By the 60's it was back down to 40%. The world bond market remains quite happy to buy 10 year US Treasury bonds that pay less than 3% interest.

The ratio of debt to GDP can be improved by paying off the debt or by growing GDP. Herbert Hoover tried to cut expenses and raise taxes during the Great Depression. The result was GDP sank and the ratio of debt to GDP soared. FDR increased govt spending. That result was a growing economy and a declining ratio of debt to GDP. Seems counter-intuitive but the national economy is not like a family. Do not try this at home.