Trying To Get A Considered View Of Thaksin/coloured Shirt Groups And Thai Thoughts On 'democracy'

[Wentworth]

Many things have been said about Mr Thaksin, the different coloured Shirt groups, grievances and what Thais think or should not think about democracy. I try to hold a considered view and do ask people, foreigners and Thais, if I'm misguided and perhaps what angle they are coming from.

These thoughts are not to be judged as either for or against Mr Thaksin; just my thoughts and questions that you may possibly put me right about.

In terms of the Thai judiciary system, whatever people keep griping about, I believe that the Thai Supreme Court did their job as they should in the recent Thaksin case and upheld the ideals as they are morally and ethically bound to do. I never saw any of the evidence, the judges did. They saw documentary evidence and heard testimony, which has either been supported through documentation or confirmed by others. If these types of evidence are incontrovertible then how can they be dismissed if you happen to disagree with the verdict? The judges used their considerable knowledge of the law and decided that all the evidence pointed to one way of thinking. If for example the documentary evidence were put in the public domain, then how could people then say it's wrong and it was a political decision?

Some people have said that Mr Thaksin should forfeit all of his money that was up for consideration. The judges deemed that they were only considering what is pertinent to his time as Prime Minister. I don't know if they should have widened their remit but am prepared to accept what angle they are coming from. This would point to Thaksin having considerable Baht billions that were made before his time as PM. Many people think he did not get this money in the right manner - I use that term deliberately. I don't know all the businesses or deals he was involved in pre-PM and unless this money is subjected to the same scrutiny as the recent case; I will hold that he is the rightful owner - some are jealous of what he has and throw accusations and labels without proof or justification. I will not scar the man with guilt without proof.

One thought however does come to me. Most successful business men eg Richard Branson have a well documented history of the growth of their wealth. I am led to believe that Thaksin did hit and miss in business and suddenly, from nowhere, he was given the telecoms contract that we know catapulted him to stardom. What I think is that if he was such a so called 'small time player' then how did he get the contract? Am I wrong about this, did he have the infrastructure and back up to undertake this huge task?

As far as I know, the Greeks first introduced democracy and they are having their own problems. It could be argued that democracy per se is not finite - in other words 'what is democracy' Western countries don't have real democracy, I believe it's an ideal and as with most politics you have to compromise and have what is best for people and workable in general.

The Red shirts say that this government is illegal. The Democrats are technically justified as the government. True, Peau Thai have the most single party seats, but not a workable majority to run parliament. This is the generally accepted way of doing things or else we would be run amok with general elections every time a major vote is put before parliament. PT were not denied the ability to form government but could not get coalition support. The Democrats did get this support and hence run the government - it may not sit well with the Red shirts but I'm sure they would have accepted it if the situation had been reversed.

Thaksin is shouting that we don't have democracy. Again, I would like to see what the specifics are that he's referring to. There are reports of extra-judicial killings, and tampering with media freedom, just 2 things that spring to mind. Newspapers should never been taken as gospel but was I right in reading that he said something like- yes I do give high profile jobs to my friends and relations as they are the only ones I can trust? If true, then it truly is worrying. What's worse is that he can't seem to see what's wrong with saying that.

Politicians and corruption. A former girlfriend told me she supported Thaksin. I asked why and she said that he did things for the poorer people. I am prepared to accept this. I said 'but so many people say he's corrupt'. The reply was 'Yes, I know, but they're all corrupt, but at least he gave us something'. Thais obviously don't like corruption but count it as a way of life. Shouldn't that imply that there should be a real fight against it - or will that never happen and I'm living in dream land?

It seems to me that when something is wrong then justice must be done - and be seen to be done. The different coloured shirt groups should be subject to the law if they have appeared to have done wrong - otherwise it smacks of double standards and causes resentment. This also applies to people in general as they see people of wealth or influence as above the law.

[Ulysses G.]

A very thoughtful post (which will be ripped to pieces in no time).

[FunkyGuru]

Brilliant. At last a post that is well thought of before hammering the keyboard. Good observation and very 'civil' comments Wentworth.

My two satangs addition. Over 8 years in Thailand and I must say I hardly found anybody who understands 'Democracy'. Not necessarily in western terms. But purely as a political process. Process of collectively deciding in which direction the country goes. Many of my Thai friends, were educated in western countries and still, had no clue about democracy. I don't wish to and want to sound rude, still, 'democracy' in Thailand seems to be a fun thing to do. Because you get to go to Bangkok, shout loud and get paid for it. Oh and yes once in a while they come around bringing bottles of country liquor and TB 200 cash. Now this part has been confirmed by one lady who was appointed to clean my apartment.

Ooops thats a bit too much typing for two satangs worth. Anyway, good write Wentworth, need more people to follow this. Not just blasting away with meaningless jumped to conclusion, having no clue opinions.

[anotherpeter]

"In terms of the Thai judiciary system ...."

- The judges were biased towards the elite.

- The judges were bribed.

- He didn't own the shares while PM.

"The Red shirts say that this government is illegal. ..."

- The PPP were banned for electoral fraud, but the democrats did the same and weren't banned.

- The coup was illegal, so the government after that was illegal.

- Thaksin was the elected PM when the coup occured, so he is the legitimate PM.

I don't believe any of that, but that's what the Thaksin supports will throw at you.

And from the Yellows:

- The poor don't understand democracy, so shouldn't get to vote, or their vote should count less.

- The poor don't understand democracy, so some MPs should be appointed.

[Barefoot]

I can see arguments on both sides, but it bothers me that a fugitive billionaire pays thousands of baht each to peasants to try to overthrow the government, as captured in this video today by the Nation: Handing out cash

[FM505]

A very thoughtful post (which will be ripped to pieces in no time).

[WeeGB]

I've come to the conclusion, after many years here, that the reason Thai politics is so difficult to understand, is because they make it up, as they go along. It seems logical to me for the Thai people to do that, because the nationalistic, Thai-is-best culture, views everything from a Thai point of view. Most other democracies have stumbled along for many years, (with a similar nationalistic viewpoint), before arriving at a point where the democracy style they practice, suits the majority viewpoint best.

The Thai constitution is re-written every time a new leader / party / coup takes over, usually with the aim of ensuring the people in power at that time stay in power for as long as possible.

But at least Thailand has a constitution, my home country, the UK, still does not have one.

I also believe that the various different cultures and languages within Thailand itself, don't help for any mutual understanding between the rival factions.

Hopefully Thailand will soon find someone, who can drive Thailand forward, eliminate the vote-buying, ensure fairness throughout Thai society, and bring peace and prosperity to a wonderful nation.

[geriatrickid]

Thais are a lot more aware of what goes on than the typical farang is able to grasp.

Democracy is an ideal and much desired, but when you have to struggle to pay the bills, keep a roof over your family's head and put food on the table, it isn't the number 1 priority. Although there isn't the grinding poverty one sees in marginal nations, there are tens of millions of Thais that live at the subsistence level and they show the same disengagement that one sees with the poor in North America and Latin America.

If voting is the cornerstone of democracy, then Thailand certainly isn't anyworse than a number of developed nations, and certainly has a significantly better turnout than the USA.

OK, so voting is compulsory here, but still, it's good to see on par with the UK, Canada and many EU nations. )

[anotherpeter]

Thais are a lot more aware of what goes on than the typical farang is able to grasp.

Democracy is an ideal and much desired, but when you have to struggle to pay the bills, keep a roof over your family's head and put food on the table, it isn't the number 1 priority. Although there isn't the grinding poverty one sees in marginal nations, there are tens of millions of Thais that live at the subsistence level and they show the same disengagement that one sees with the poor in North America and Latin America.

If voting is the cornerstone of democracy, then Thailand certainly isn't anyworse than a number of developed nations, and certainly has a significantly better turnout than the USA.

OK, so voting is compulsory here, but still, it's good to see on par with the UK, Canada and many EU nations. )

I think the first sentence is a big generalization.

A lot of Thais that I know (in Bangkok) have no idea what is going on, what went on recently and what has gone on in the past. Most of what they know is "hearsay" - "Their parents said this" - or incorrect assumptions based on a little bit of information.

Then again, I've met westerners like that too - regarding Thailand and the west.

[Cnxforever]

Good post - here are my thoughts about it.

Thailand has never been a democracy - to discuss this we would have mention things which are not allowed to be said in this forum and this country. The first pillar of democracy has already fallen after my first sentence - free speech.

To understand the Thai situation that is plaging us today better you have to go back a few years.

Thailand is run by a few "untouchable" people who "allow" governments to be formed - but they constantly interfere behind the scenes to make sure the "right" government is in place.

Should the government not be to there liking anymore they get rid of it - in one way or another.

Abhisit's speech yesterday had been written by somebody else for him to read - after all we don't want Abhisit to accidentally say what he really wants to say - wouldn’t we?

I still believe Abhisit is one of the few honest politicians around - only problem is the old and new corrupt garbage all around him.

As for the judiciary -The mess in which Thailand is right now has been created years ago with the acquittal of Thaksin during the "hidden assets" trial.

There was no way that Thaksin could have ever been acquitted by an independent court - it was crystal clear that he was trying to hide his assets parking hundreds of millions in his driver's and a maid's name. In any other country he would have been forced to resign - but not in Thailand –he worried – but was told by somebody very powerful he should not worry “but take care of the country”.

When the verdict was read I watched it with a Thai friend live on TV who could not believe what he had just heard - his words where "our country is doomed" - little did he know how precise he had hit the nail on the head. And little could he know that this "arranged" verdict would eventually throw this country into one of the longest and deepest political crises this country has ever endured.

One of the judges of the constitutional court said later - that he had to "swallow his blood" to decide in favour of Thaksin - the court had become the laughing stock of the nation but the people with the real power did not care - they know their fellow Thais - an outcry today - and a few days later it is all forgotten.

That they undermined the most important pillar of democracy - an independent judiciary - was a show of force – and a reminder to all – we are in charge -if we want you in power we keep you in power – if we want you gone we remove you.

Thailand will in the foreseeable future not be turned into a democracy as we know it in the west - the entire country is to deeply entrenched in power play, nepotism and corruption.

Thailand’s culture is in a way the biggest enemy on the road to democracy – unless Thais are personally involved they have learned not to criticise, never to stand up to somebody, avoiding any confrontation and accepting things as they are - do not help at all. But these are the cultural traits which many of us have come to love in this country and that’s why we are still here.

What makes us angry is having to watch when people who live by this beautiful culture are trampled upon and are taken advantage of.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Cnxforever

[rametindallas]

My best friend is an 'elite'. He served as a bodyguard to Gen. Prem and later was assistant to Police Superintendant Taksin Shinawatra (before he was rich). I have a copy of a photo of him and Dr. Taksin, arms on each other's shoulders, taken in Houston, Texas. My friend, the 'elite' is a red-shirt supporter. I used to have long political discussions with him and other English-speaking, upperclass Thais. Here is what they told me.

Everyone in business or politics has to choose a side; always sooner than later. The political parties are not based on 'platforms' of beliefs but personal relationships. Everyone has the option to change sides at will as long as they are ready for the consequences. All politics is business and all business is politics and business and politics is all about making money. Every contract by the government comes with a 10% comission to the politition who gives the contract but always the contract is padded by 100+% to 'share-the-wealth' to keep everybody fat and happy. The Thai way of thinking is relationships trump everything, including ethics.

The farmers and other working-poor are in a client-patron relationship with middlemen. The middlemen are the local political leaders (puyai bahn, kamnan, etc.) and the wholesale buyers (mostly Chinese-Thai merchant class). The system is rigged so that all trade is controlled by these small groups who collect both ways e.g. road building funds coming in and produce/ product going out. The 'elite' deal only with the middlemen.

The way the 'elite' became the 'elite' is from the days when the kings owned all land. Gifts of large tracts of land were deeded to members of the royal family or others who were helpful to a king at one time or another. Because of the great wealth of these people and the absence of property tax, there was no incentive to distribute the land among the rest of the population. Even today the Crown Properties is the largest landholder in the country and rental fees are a large source of income the the royal family. Because vast majority of the land is inherited, those people looked on their inheritance as a birthright and Buddhism told them they deserved it. I don't expect they want to give away something they were raised to conserve.

This same Buddhism that allows the 'elite' to believe they deserve what they have is what also empowers Dr. Taksin. People look at his success and comfort and believe it to be his due from dharma (karma) i.e. good works from a past life. They see him as blessed. It is not important where or how his blessing came to him. Corruption in endemic in Thailand so that is not a factor to beat him on the head with. In the eyes of the common people he is a great man and they would love to be like him so they follow him.

This whole subject could take a lifetime of study and there would still be more to learn about the very old Thai history and culture so I will end it here. I hope I given some paths to understanding if not sympathy of what is happening here. There are thousands of intrigues and subplots swirling around every monent in this land that is masked behind a smile. Buddha's peace to all. Ramet

[WinnieTheKhwai]

If voting is the cornerstone of democracy, then Thailand certainly isn't anyworse than a number of developed nations, and certainly has a significantly better turnout than the USA.

I only partially agreel; "letting the result stand without meddling from above" is the cornerstone of democracty.

OK, so voting is compulsory here, but still, it's good to see on par with the UK, Canada and many EU nations. )

Voting is not compulsory. (Some notes apply, like if you want to be anything int he civil service then you're expected to vote. Also when in the military you're expected to vote, and probably a couple more cases like this. Also if you're taking a financial incentive to vote then you're expected to actually vote. )

[geriatrickid]

If voting is the cornerstone of democracy, then Thailand certainly isn't anyworse than a number of developed nations, and certainly has a significantly better turnout than the USA.

I only partially agreel; "letting the result stand without meddling from above" is the cornerstone of democracty.

OK, so voting is compulsory here, but still, it's good to see on par with the UK, Canada and many EU nations. )

Voting is not compulsory. (Some notes apply, like if you want to be anything int he civil service then you're expected to vote. Also when in the military you're expected to vote, and probably a couple more cases like this. Also if you're taking a financial incentive to vote then you're expected to actually vote. )

Perhaps someone would like to settle the compulsory voting issue for us?

Voting is compulsory in Thailand, but failure to cast one’s vote doesn’t invite punitive action, Election Commission of Thailand President Apichart Sukhagganond said.

As quoted; 28-Jan-2010 Delhi Times.

[traderjm]

The Red shirts say that this government is illegal. The Democrats are technically justified as the government. True, Peau Thai have the most single party seats, but not a workable majority to run parliament. This is the generally accepted way of doing things or else we would be run amok with general elections every time a major vote is put before parliament. PT were not denied the ability to form government but could not get coalition support. The Democrats did get this support and hence run the government - it may not sit well with the Red shirts but I'm sure they would have accepted it if the situation had been reversed.

Therein lies the rub. This is the bottom line to it all. If they hold elections now the party that the Red's don't like gets control again, then what? More protest because they didn't win the election? Or if the party the Reds do like wins what will the yellows do, protest until the house is dissolved and we can have another election?? There is NO end to this unless the current gov't stands their ground and waits it out for the elections in 2011.

The true sad fact of all of this is if the former PM was NOT bankrolling this operation there would be NO operation at all, period. So much for the good of the people.

[just_another_guy]

Ram/Dallas

Five days & 60+ posts? A new record & welcome.

Thank you for your writing & sharing your friends thoughts.

Good insight and it makes more sense than most of the "thoughts" people post on TV.

For the first time ever, I am actually going to reread this post because it was a delight to read the first time.

Personally, watching this color red drama unfold behind the computer screen, it seems to me that because of the non violence & restraint shown, it is slowly winning the hearts & minds of the so called 'silent majority' of Thais.

Are there still posters here (like there was a week or so ago) that think it is nothing but a storm in a tea cup?

I am still hoping it doesn't end with blood, sweat and tears.

Opps, let me re-phase that. Lets hope there won't be tears.