The 2010 Formula One Season

[carmine]

Good news for Ferrari and Alonso as no further sanction will be imposed on them!!!

Link for the article is http://www.formula1....10/9/11221.html

Team orders should be allowed in F1 as they are allowed in all other sports. The best example is cycling where if your team mate does have a possibility to win you do your best to help him. If you do not like how your team is handled then leave it and find another team....as simple as that!

The championship is still open for Alonso and hopefully he will have a good weekend at Monza.

Link for the article is http://www.formula1....10/9/11221.html

What a cop out

[JetsetBkk]

^ It's Ms. Fanatic isn't it?

Oops, yes. I beg her pardon.

[rixalex]

Team orders should be allowed in F1 as they are allowed in all other sports.

Whether they should or should not is another discussion, the fact is the rule in F1 states that they are not allowed, and until the rule is changed or abolished, breaking of it should be punished. Now to my mind, punishing a team by fining them a fairly trivial sum is really no deterent whatsoever, and if Alonso goes on to win the DC, i'm sure Ferrari and especially Alonso, will consider it as having been money well spent and would do it again.

The decision is a joke, but it's the decision i expected and i'm actually happy about it. Had Alonso been deducted points he would have played the victim card and moaned about it endlessly, and he also would have had a ready made excuse for why he didn't win the DC.

[JetsetBkk]

What a cop out

Agreed. FIA = Ferrari International Assistance.

So team orders are now officially sanctioned at a rate of $100,000 per order if it is blatant as in: "Alonso is quicker than you. Please confirm you understand."

Of course, if it is subtle, like: "You are going to win" (= pre-arranged code for 'let him through') then it's free.

[F1fanatic]

Its impossible to discuss a point with someone who says that DC admitting (years later) that he was at fault, was a coded way of saying he was only partly to blame.

At the time, I thought Schumi had to bear most of the blame for driving too fast in those conditions. DC however made it clear (years later) that he made the mistake and braked at the wrong time.

If you accept what DC himself said (again - years later, when somebody did something similar to him), then there is nothing more to argue about - certainly not to continue to argue that MS was angry 'cos of a mistake he'd made......

He did not brake. Please get the facts straight, Mr. Fanatic:

"I'm not doing a Fernando-beating thing," Coulthard said. "But I realised on reflection ... when Michael ran into the back of me, his reaction was that I'd brake tested him or tried to kill him and all that sort of thing.

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now.

"In 1998, I didn't have the experience and the knowledge, and I had never had someone run into the back of me.

"The minute I knew he was there, and I was told by the team that he was and was trying to allow him to pass me, I should have made a smarter decision."

http://www.smh.com.a...7430084085.html

I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now.

Of course he wouldn't do that now because now he knows that nut-jobs like Schumacher will be tail-gating him far to close to see what is going on in front of him.

Coulthard was being very "gentlemanly" in his statement, but it is quite clear he was not accepting full responsibility for the crash.

I disagree. DC's quote :-

"but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now."

indicate (to me) that he is accepting responsibility for the accident and that yes, he is a gentleman.

Have to agree though that the FIA decision on Ferrari team orders is not ideal....... They're 'thinking about' the rule is fair enough - team orders exist to a certain extent in every team - but Ferrari were caught out blatantly breaking the CURRENT rule. Something more than a (relatively) small fine should have been implemented.

Hard to think of a better rule though.

Team orders can only be implemented once one team driver can no longer mathematically fight for the WDC?? Might be a bit late if one team driver is way ahead of the other, but is v close to those at the top of the WDC table with a few races to go. In those circumstances the other team driver taking points off the one with a serious WDC chance, could lose the team and driver the WDC.

2007 is a prime example of a 'team' losing the WDC cos of the infighting between their two drivers, and it was even more difficult then as both drivers were incredibly close to each other.

It would be great for the fans if team orders could be banned, but its not going to happen - teams will just be smarter than Ferrari! Can only assume Ferrari were caught out so easily cos Massa and Smedley were angry and determined to make it obvious.

Edited September 9, 2010 by F1fanatic

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8982808.stm

First of all, Todt tells us that there was not enough evidence to punish Ferrari - yeah right, like Massa being told Alonso was faster than him and then him slowing to allow Alonso through wasn't sufficient for everyone to know what had happened - and then he tells us that it wasn't his decision as he wasn't part of the deliberating team - yeah right, like he didn't give any instructions to his deputy - and then finally he tells us: who cares anyway, Ferrari would have finished first and second anyway. Who cares? Well the people who set the rule about not allowing team orders should when somebody blatantly breaks it. If they don't, they shouldn't have made the rule in the first place.

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8985604.stm

The last sentence from this article is added as a footnote but i think is a crucial point that indicates just how thoroughly manipulated things were by Ferrari:

The report also revealed that Alonso's car was on an engine setting that gave more power than Massa's at the time the Brazilian was told his team-mate was faster than him.

Of course there could have been a valid reason why Massa's engine had to be "downtuned" so to speak. On the other hand....

[rixalex]

An inside source has just revealed that should Ferrari find themselves in the same position this weekend with Massa ahead of Alonso, this is the cunning message they will give to Massa via pit to car radio.

Smedley: 'Felipe, I've just seen Alonso's mum and she's knitting a lovely PULLOVER FOR FERNANDO. Can you confirm you understand.'

On a serious note, if the FIA are saying that there wasn't enough evidence to prove use of team orders by Ferrari, shouldn't they be giving back the money they fined them?

[F1fanatic]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8982808.stm

First of all, Todt tells us that there was not enough evidence to punish Ferrari - yeah right, like Massa being told Alonso was faster than him and then him slowing to allow Alonso through wasn't sufficient for everyone to know what had happened - and then he tells us that it wasn't his decision as he wasn't part of the deliberating team - yeah right, like he didn't give any instructions to his deputy - and then finally he tells us: who cares anyway, Ferrari would have finished first and second anyway. Who cares? Well the people who set the rule about not allowing team orders should when somebody blatantly breaks it. If they don't, they shouldn't have made the rule in the first place.

To be fair, I think they're saying that they couldn't 'prove' the case against Ferrari.

But I agree, its not a court of law and they have no reason to rely on that as an excuse. It was obvious to EVERYONE.

[rixalex]

A good performance from Alonso to get on pole and i think now it's his race to lose. The only thing that could prevent him is if Button gets passed before the first corner. Button isn't known to take risks though so unless Alonso gets bogged down i can't really see it. Massa might even sneak passed Button as he's on the clean side of the track, but we all know he won't be allowed to challenge for the front - more like it'll be his job to hold up the pack and let Alonso sail off into the distance.

[Mosha]

Bernie now thinks (according to the BBC site) that Team orders should be allowed - Teams should be allowed to decide team strategy. He says. So Mr Ecclestone as Tyres are part of the team strategy will we see next season being allowed to choose what where when re the tyres. Or is it only because your team got caught that you want team orders back?

Edited September 12, 2010 by Mosha

[Mosha]

How will S Korea handle the loss of face if they are not ready?

[rixalex]

Well Alonso did get bogged down (either that or he was too busy trying to squeeze Button out of the way that he lost concentration!) and Button had exactly the start he needed. Shame McLaren blinked first in terms of the pit-stops. It cost Button the race.

Lewis's mistake might have cost him the Championship. Not a great race for Red Bull either.

This one's going down to the wire.

[rixalex]

I'm struggling to find the actual rule but I think It goes beyond just taking a place, I believe it states something about 'gaining an advantage' which Lewis clearly did, no debate about it.

So what we are saying then is that the rule is black and white and anyone with knowledge of motor racing would know that Lewis broke the rule... but we are not sure what the exact rule is. As you say then, clearly no debate about it.

I think its the one about going off line and gaining an advantage....

The battle between Mark and Nico got me thinking again of this discussion above we had some time back.

If the rule goes beyond just taking a place and is something about "gaining an advantage", who could possibly argue that Nico wasn't gaining an advantage? How is straightlining a chicane to stay ahead any less a crime than straightlining a chicane to get ahead? The outcome of both is that you are falsely one place up the standings than you should be. Not surprised that Mark was doing his nut and asking for FIA intervention.

This rule remains confusing and nonsensical to me.

[JetsetBkk]

A good performance from Alonso to get on pole and i think now it's his race to lose. The only thing that could prevent him is if Button gets passed before the first corner. Button isn't known to take risks though so unless Alonso gets bogged down i can't really see it. Massa might even sneak passed Button as he's on the clean side of the track, but we all know he won't be allowed to challenge for the front - more like it'll be his job to hold up the pack and let Alonso sail off into the distance.

Do you have as crystal ball?

You were right on many counts. It's a pity that Lewis didn't have the common sense of Alonso and keep the delicate front end of his car well away from the strong rear end of the opposition.

He should learn when he's been passed, and give way.

[rixalex]

Do you have as crystal ball?

You were right on many counts. It's a pity that Lewis didn't have the common sense of Alonso and keep the delicate front end of his car well away from the strong rear end of the opposition.

He should learn when he's been passed, and give way.

Thanks. One thing i wouldn't have predicted though was how well Button drove after getting the lead. I confess i'm still guilty of under-estimating him at times. He really did a sterling job of soaking up the pressure. Ferrari / Alonso's only hope of getting passed him was were he to pit first. They must have been so elated when he did. McLaren really stuffed up the race for him. We saw how long Vettel managed to stay out for. Why McLaren blinked first i just don't know. They gave the race away.

As far as Lewis is concerned, i think the combination of his driving style and the fact that first laps are so crucial in making up places, means that there's always the danger of something like that happening with him. My fear isn't so much of him making those mistakes occasionally, it's that he changes his style of racing. I know there are those who think he races dirty, but i think he brings to the race so much in terms of excitement, and when he goes out of a race as he did in Monza, my disappointment isn't simply because i want to see him do well, but because a large part of the entertainment factor has been lost.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Ferrari / Alonso's only hope of getting passed him was were he to pit first. They must have been so elated when he did. <snip>

I'm trying to remember which commentator said that it didn't matter, because I agree with him. I know others were talking about "who blinks first", but whether Button pitted first or not, Alonso was going to get a faster lap in because Button wasn't holding him up.

So once they were back on the track with new tyres, Alonso was bound to be a fraction of a second faster = a car length in front of Button. That's how I see it, anyway.

[rixalex]

<snip>

Ferrari / Alonso's only hope of getting passed him was were he to pit first. They must have been so elated when he did. <snip>

I'm trying to remember which commentator said that it didn't matter, because I agree with him. I know others were talking about "who blinks first", but whether Button pitted first or not, Alonso was going to get a faster lap in because Button wasn't holding him up.

So once they were back on the track with new tyres, Alonso was bound to be a fraction of a second faster = a car length in front of Button. That's how I see it, anyway.

Button pitting first meant that Alonso had a free lap without being held up and on tyres that were fully up to speed and didn't need to be saved.

Had Alonso come in first he would have had a free lap but on fresh tyres that weren't up to speed and that needed bringing up to temperature. I think Button could have made it back on the track and retained his position - assuming of course the mechanics did their job - and then it just would have been a case of whether Button could withstand the pressure of being on cold tyres and having Alonso biting at his heels. The way Button was driving up to that point i think there's a fair chance he could have.

I think as far as the commentator saying it didn't matter is concerned, he was speaking about Massa coming in early. He thought it wouldn't make any difference because he would have come out in about 6th or 7th and been unable to get passed the traffic.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Had Alonso come in first he would have had a free lap but on fresh tyres that weren't up to speed and that needed bringing up to temperature.

<snip>

Yes - that's a good point. Better to have an unencumbered lap on hot tyres than one on cold tyres.

So I wonder why they called Button in? His tyres seemed perfectly OK. As you said earlier, McLaren stuffed it up.

[rixalex]

<snip>

Had Alonso come in first he would have had a free lap but on fresh tyres that weren't up to speed and that needed bringing up to temperature.

<snip>

Yes - that's a good point. Better to have an unencumbered lap on hot tyres than one on cold tyres.

So I wonder why they called Button in? His tyres seemed perfectly OK. As you said earlier, McLaren stuffed it up.

Indeed. Why did they call him in? Button was wondering the same thing, and said as much on the pit to car radio, and also in the post race press conference.

Incidently, there's an interesting article here on Button and it highlights the way in which he continues to be underestimated - i love that he is proving a lot of people wrong - me included: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8995626.stm

All that said, i maintain my belief that Lewis will prevail.

[rixalex]

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/28469.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Can't help wondering exactly who Ferrari are continuing to play out this charade of driver equality for. Do they really think anyone is buying it?!

[Mosha]

Elvis is alive, the Moon is made of green cheese, Thaksin's an alien. Now Massa is an equal at Ferrari. Wow!

[wackysleet]

It now seems that Lotus and Cosworth are parting company at the end of the year , with Lotus looking to Renault as their engine supplier.

I thought that it was a pre;requisite that all the latest entrants were contracted to Cosworth and if not, will this open the gates for other teams to buy into a more competative engine for 2011/2012, just a thought.

David.

[Miiyai46]

I wonder why everyone criticize Ferrari's team orders in this forum but no one have mentioned RED BULL.

Where did Vettel's engine power loss go?! It came and stayed only as long as Webber needed to overtake him, however it disappeared just before Schumacher did the same. Very strange and biased problem that was but since it is not Ferrari there is no need to complain....Am I right?

Is there any detailed technical description about how the problem occurred out of the blue and then was solved without external intervention, you're welcome to surprise me if you have the explanation!!!

Red Bull most probably split the strategies and gave the one that looked better to Webber only to find out that the one Vettel had was the right one to have given the circumstances ( Webber was stuck behind Hulkenberg and complaining like a brat to his team as he was not able to overtake the German driver )

Cheers

[rixalex]

I wonder why everyone criticize Ferrari's team orders in this forum but no one have mentioned RED BULL.

Where did Vettel's engine power loss go?! It came and stayed only as long as Webber needed to overtake him, however it disappeared just before Schumacher did the same. Very strange and biased problem that was but since it is not Ferrari there is no need to complain....Am I right?

Is there any detailed technical description about how the problem occurred out of the blue and then was solved without external intervention, you're welcome to surprise me if you have the explanation!!!

I think you are right to be suspicious - i certainly am in light of what just happened with Ferrari.

One thing i will say though, either Vettel was not in on it and the team fiddled with his car without him knowing, or he is potentially an Oscar winning actor! The shock and panic in his voice when he radioed in to say he was losing power was there for all to hear.

Another factor that goes against your theory is that Red Bull consistently favour Vettel. If Webber continues to lead the championship, i'm sure they'll come a point when they swing behind Mark, but that time hasn't come yet in my opinion.

Red Bull most probably split the strategies and gave the one that looked better to Webber only to find out that the one Vettel had was the right one to have given the circumstances ( Webber was stuck behind Hulkenberg and complaining like a brat to his team as he was not able to overtake the German driver )

Cheers

Webber had good right to complain. The Hulk kept straightlining the chicane in order to stay ahead. Why that isn't against the rules but straightlining the chicane to get ahead is, i have no idea - makes no sense.

[rixalex]

It now seems that Lotus and Cosworth are parting company at the end of the year , with Lotus looking to Renault as their engine supplier.

I thought that it was a pre;requisite that all the latest entrants were contracted to Cosworth and if not, will this open the gates for other teams to buy into a more competative engine for 2011/2012, just a thought.

David.

It's a good point.

[Mosha]

Get the technology out of the cars, and get back to communicating with the pits via the boards hung from the pit wall.

[rixalex]

Get the technology out of the cars, and get back to communicating with the pits via the boards hung from the pit wall.

Interesting idea Mosha. Do I take it you are against team orders and think this measure would prevent it?

[JetsetBkk]

Get the technology out of the cars, and get back to communicating with the pits via the boards hung from the pit wall.

Nah, put EVERYTHING back in - variable downforce wings, traction control, bluddy big fans at the back sucking the car into the ground, fokking fat tyres two feet wide, as much fuel as you like... lets see how fast these buggers can really go!

[b19bry]

Red Bull most probably split the strategies and gave the one that looked better to Webber only to find out that the one Vettel had was the right one to have given the circumstances ( Webber was stuck behind Hulkenberg and complaining like a brat to his team as he was not able to overtake the German driver )

Cheers

Webber had good right to complain. The Hulk kept straightlining the chicane in order to stay ahead. Why that isn't against the rules but straightlining the chicane to get ahead is, i have no idea - makes no sense.

They are both very much against the rules, how Hulkenburg was able to repeatedly keep doing this and get away with it is a mystery, the stewards should have brought him in for a stop-go, Webber is more than justified in being angry.