The 2010 Formula One Season

[wackysleet]

Agreed but I am always sceptical about these things as I think it could be hiding a lot of things that were previously agreed upon between driver and team although I am not saying that was the case , just could have been.

I think you have good cause to be suspicious wacky. I am too.

One thing i will say though, and this doesn't concern what is written in the rules, it concerns my only personal feelings on the matter. And that is, for me, team orders come in many different forms. There are some i find acceptable in terms of being what i consider within the bounds of sportsmanship, and there are others i find unacceptable.

Telling drivers that if they reach a certain point in the race, getting towards the latter stages, that they will accept the position they are in, rather than risk both drivers ending up DNF, makes sense to me and still allows for drivers to determine to a large degree their success in the race.

Telling a driver who is mathematically out of the championship, that if necessary they will have to concede a place to their team mate who is still in with a shout, is also perfectly reasonable to me. Once again, a driver's success is still within their control as it is they who are responsible for how many points they have scored throughout the season.

Simply ordering drivers to swap position when those conditions do not apply is for me unacceptable. It's crossing a line.

I find it easy to accept the logic behind your view on team orders, especially concerning team mates possibly coming together and ending up as DNFs which as Mclaren and all teams are now in the F1 game as a business and not as a sport and we are all aware that it is results that brings in the sponsors cash.

This attitude to racing, while understandable is in my opinion detrimental to MY enjoyment of the sport or what was a sport. As regular as clockwork on the posts we hear about how boring such and such a race was and yes we know that some circuits are pretty dire places but again that is mostly down to the money side of the FIA or Bernie.

My own view purely as a paying spectator is that it should be a bona fide race from start to finish, I am sure people enjoyed the wheel to wheel racing between Prost and Senna while both driving for Mclaren will remember those races long after the boring stuff we are being fed now, but as we say, each to his own and may it always be that way.

[rixalex]

I find it easy to accept the logic behind your view on team orders, especially concerning team mates possibly coming together and ending up as DNFs which as Mclaren and all teams are now in the F1 game as a business and not as a sport and we are all aware that it is results that brings in the sponsors cash.

This attitude to racing, while understandable is in my opinion detrimental to MY enjoyment of the sport or what was a sport. As regular as clockwork on the posts we hear about how boring such and such a race was and yes we know that some circuits are pretty dire places but again that is mostly down to the money side of the FIA or Bernie.

My own view purely as a paying spectator is that it should be a bona fide race from start to finish, I am sure people enjoyed the wheel to wheel racing between Prost and Senna while both driving for Mclaren will remember those races long after the boring stuff we are being fed now, but as we say, each to his own and may it always be that way.

Agreed.

So what was your take on the events at Hockenheim and the subsequent punishment?

100,000 quid is looking like money well spent to me right now.

[wackysleet]

I find it easy to accept the logic behind your view on team orders, especially concerning team mates possibly coming together and ending up as DNFs which as Mclaren and all teams are now in the F1 game as a business and not as a sport and we are all aware that it is results that brings in the sponsors cash.

This attitude to racing, while understandable is in my opinion detrimental to MY enjoyment of the sport or what was a sport. As regular as clockwork on the posts we hear about how boring such and such a race was and yes we know that some circuits are pretty dire places but again that is mostly down to the money side of the FIA or Bernie.

My own view purely as a paying spectator is that it should be a bona fide race from start to finish, I am sure people enjoyed the wheel to wheel racing between Prost and Senna while both driving for Mclaren will remember those races long after the boring stuff we are being fed now, but as we say, each to his own and may it always be that way.

Agreed.

So what was your take on the events at Hockenheim and the subsequent punishment?

100,000 quid is looking like money well spent to me right now.

In simple words, too little too late. As I said, I am an ardent Alonso fan but my opinion bearing in mind my views on the whole aspect of team orders is that anyone, any team, participating in breaking the rules THAT ARE IN PLACE AT THAT TIME should have any points earned from that race forfeited and also a sum of money that is assessed {if possible} by a panel of knowledgeable people/experts to be in excess of what may be gained financially through a higher placing in the finishing rankings than would otherwise have been, or to be more succinct, hit the cheating bastards with a massive fine and possibly starting the next race from the pit lane or banning them from the next race.

the problem as I see it is that there are rules of all descriptions that are open to various forms of abuse by most teams sailing a bit too close to the wind and probably knowing it, look at the controversy over wings of various shapes sizes etc; standardise the rules for clarity, every bloody season they seem to change them and in my view F1 is becoming painfully boring to watch.

[rixalex]

I find it easy to accept the logic behind your view on team orders, especially concerning team mates possibly coming together and ending up as DNFs which as Mclaren and all teams are now in the F1 game as a business and not as a sport and we are all aware that it is results that brings in the sponsors cash.

This attitude to racing, while understandable is in my opinion detrimental to MY enjoyment of the sport or what was a sport. As regular as clockwork on the posts we hear about how boring such and such a race was and yes we know that some circuits are pretty dire places but again that is mostly down to the money side of the FIA or Bernie.

My own view purely as a paying spectator is that it should be a bona fide race from start to finish, I am sure people enjoyed the wheel to wheel racing between Prost and Senna while both driving for Mclaren will remember those races long after the boring stuff we are being fed now, but as we say, each to his own and may it always be that way.

Agreed.

So what was your take on the events at Hockenheim and the subsequent punishment?

100,000 quid is looking like money well spent to me right now.

In simple words, too little too late. As I said, I am an ardent Alonso fan but my opinion bearing in mind my views on the whole aspect of team orders is that anyone, any team, participating in breaking the rules THAT ARE IN PLACE AT THAT TIME should have any points earned from that race forfeited and also a sum of money that is assessed {if possible} by a panel of knowledgeable people/experts to be in excess of what may be gained financially through a higher placing in the finishing rankings than would otherwise have been, or to be more succinct, hit the cheating bastards with a massive fine and possibly starting the next race from the pit lane or banning them from the next race.

the problem as I see it is that there are rules of all descriptions that are open to various forms of abuse by most teams sailing a bit too close to the wind and probably knowing it, look at the controversy over wings of various shapes sizes etc; standardise the rules for clarity, every bloody season they seem to change them and in my view F1 is becoming painfully boring to watch.

Yep. Agree with all of that.

On the business of changing the rules every five minutes, whilst i understand there is some need for that in terms of the cars, what saddens me the most is the way they have tinkered, and go on tinkering with fundamental matters of the sport, such as qualifying, points, refuelling etc. All these changes have i believed failed in the intention - to make the sport more exciting - and what's more have messed up the history books.

The biggest factor for me in bringing back excitement to the sport is to do with the circuits, but we have seen the quality of these being disregarded for the sake of business.

[b19bry]

As neither am i. Read my signature message.

Rix, there really is no need to constantly be so patronising, of course I've read your tagline many times, I find it amusing in a cynical kind of way.

I have no problem with anyone expressing an opinion, however when one continually makes unqualified statements or suppositions on things they have limited or no knowledge and then proceed to build arguments on those suppositions I think that's unfair. You seem to do it repeatedly........and no we don't all do it as you previously suggested.

In the last instance of this you first you make a supposition:

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things..

I question you're credentials for making such a statement and I believe it's merely something that 'you think' ? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

However if I'm correct and it's something that 'you think' there really are no grounds for you to go on to make the following bold statements as if they were 'fact':

and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

So i still have no answer as to why Alonso, if he is the best driver as some believe, was unable to stamp his authority on the McLaren team by outpacing the rookie.

[b19bry]

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

Indeed, in a 'crap' car he was ...............well 'crap' actually

Not a vintage year for Lewis by any means. But his finishing position for the season was 5th, behind the two Brawns and the two Red Bulls, and he had five podiums, including two race wins. For a crap car, that doesn't sound too bad. And how much better did the likes of Kimi, Massa and Alonso do that year? OK, forget Kimi... he was on the lollipops by then.

For the 2009 season Mclaren effectively produced two 'distinct' cars. In the early part of the season the car was 'crap' but by mid-season the team performed an amazing and unprecedented turn around in performance on the car. It even became one of the 'top' cars on the grid, capable of both race wins and pole positions where previously it had languished at the back of the grid.

I'll readily admit that in the second half of the season when he had a half-decent car under him (& when he achieved those wins) Lewis did a good job, however the first half when he drove the 'crap' car was a different story. The truth is he has only ever driven a car that wasn't in the top 2 or 3 on the grid for half a season in his whole career........ and when he had a 'bad' car he didn't distinguish himself.

[rixalex]

As neither am i. Read my signature message.

Rix, there really is no need to constantly be so patronising, of course I've read your tagline many times, I find it amusing in a cynical kind of way.

I have no problem with anyone expressing an opinion, however when one continually makes unqualified statements or suppositions on things they have limited or no knowledge and then proceed to build arguments on those suppositions I think that's unfair. You seem to do it repeatedly........and no we don't all do it as you previously suggested.

In the last instance of this you first you make a supposition:

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things..

I question you're credentials for making such a statement and I believe it's merely something that 'you think' ? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

However if I'm correct and it's something that 'you think' there really are no grounds for you to go on to make the following bold statements as if they were 'fact':

and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

So i still have no answer as to why Alonso, if he is the best driver as some believe, was unable to stamp his authority on the McLaren team by outpacing the rookie.

Deary me. I really have no idea how it is that you feel patronised by someone telling you that all they are doing is expressing an opinion. That is all i am doing. I'm expressing my opinion. At no point have i ever stated that my opinion is fact - phrases like "i do think..." as in the above section of mine you have quoted should give you a clue to that.

My opinion is however something that i happen to believe in (funnily enough), and therefore i will argue it with conviction. I'm not going to apologise for that, and futhermore, i couldn't care less how qualified or unqualified someone else here deems my opinion to be, or whether they think i have sufficient "credentials". Really, can you hear yourself?!

That you do so frequently question not the point i am making, but my right to have an opinion and that i dare to express it in such exalted company as you clearly believe yourself to be, with pompous comments like "and how many formula have you raced in?" (as if anyone who hasn't raced professionally is unworthy of an opinion), leaves me to conclude that you are quite possibly a condescending and arrogant individual with whom reasoned, respectful, civilised debate is simply not possible. So with that said, i endeavour to cease my participation in this line of discussion with you, and to henceforth, ignore any more of the personal and insulting crap you throw my way. Life really is too short.

(Apologies to other forum members for having to listen to all this. May i reiterate and repeat for those at the back who have nodded off: I'm happy for anyone here to rubbish and trash my opinion - please go ahead. What is not ok is rubbishing and trashing me and my right to an opinion. I trust everyone finds this request reasonable.)

[F1fanatic]

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

Indeed, in a 'crap' car he was ...............well 'crap' actually

Not a vintage year for Lewis by any means. But his finishing position for the season was 5th, behind the two Brawns and the two Red Bulls, and he had five podiums, including two race wins. For a crap car, that doesn't sound too bad. And how much better did the likes of Kimi, Massa and Alonso do that year? OK, forget Kimi... he was on the lollipops by then.

You're ignoring the fact that the Mclaren had a FAR better car at the end of the year. Hamilton's position reflected this.

He was nowhere at the beginning of the year (fair enough - he didn't have the car), but at the end of the season he DID have the car, and made up the points.

As I said previously, in a crap car he did nothing, he needed a good car to get somewhere.

Same for all the drivers - but having said this, I think it was a good lesson for Hamilton. He finally realised that he's not great on his own - he needs the car.....

[rixalex]

You're ignoring the fact that the Mclaren had a FAR better car at the end of the year. Hamilton's position reflected this.

He was nowhere at the beginning of the year (fair enough - he didn't have the car), but at the end of the season he DID have the car, and made up the points.

As I said previously, in a crap car he did nothing, he needed a good car to get somewhere.

Same for all the drivers - but having said this, I think it was a good lesson for Hamilton. He finally realised that he's not great on his own - he needs the car.....

Point taken.

[F1fanatic]

"Dominically also, interestingly, singled out Webber as their main rival, and he furnished this as insider information from Redbull.

Bottom line. Ferrari is throwing all their weight into this weekend in contrast to what they are saying in the media for some reason, and they "know" that Vettel is going to play the supporting role in the next 2 races."

Just read this on another forum (but only a rumour) - am I the only one who finds it highly unlikely that Vettel will support Webber??!

Yes, Massa will support Alonso (as little as he can get away with), but Vettel supporting Webber?

[WarpSpeed]

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

Indeed, in a 'crap' car he was ...............well 'crap' actually

Not a vintage year for Lewis by any means. But his finishing position for the season was 5th, behind the two Brawns and the two Red Bulls, and he had five podiums, including two race wins. For a crap car, that doesn't sound too bad. And how much better did the likes of Kimi, Massa and Alonso do that year? OK, forget Kimi... he was on the lollipops by then.

You're ignoring the fact that the Mclaren had a FAR better car at the end of the year. Hamilton's position reflected this.

He was nowhere at the beginning of the year (fair enough - he didn't have the car), but at the end of the season he DID have the car, and made up the points.

As I said previously, in a crap car he did nothing, he needed a good car to get somewhere.

Same for all the drivers - but having said this, I think it was a good lesson for Hamilton. He finally realised that he's not great on his own - he needs the car.....

I wonder if this applies to Schumie though??

[F1fanatic]

Undoubtedly. When he started in F1 he showed himself to be a great driver -which is why he was so 'sought after' by the other teams.

He moved to Ferrari (a struggling team at the time), even though he had 2 WDC behind him.

Knowing how important the car is, he built the team around him. He didn't rely on his 'greatness' to ensure his success - he stayed all hours at the garage (going out and buying meals for the workers if there was nothing else he could do) - in short, he knew the importance of the car. Everyone at Ferrari was motivated by his drive and dedication, and it paid off

Having said this - of course, even in his best years, he could not deliver a WDC without a good car behind him. 2005 is a case in point plus when he first moved to Ferrari - the difference is that he realised this - IMO Hamilton didn't until last year.

Edited November 3, 2010 by F1fanatic

[b19bry]

"Dominically also, interestingly, singled out Webber as their main rival, and he furnished this as insider information from Redbull.

Bottom line. Ferrari is throwing all their weight into this weekend in contrast to what they are saying in the media for some reason, and they "know" that Vettel is going to play the supporting role in the next 2 races."

Just read this on another forum (but only a rumour) - am I the only one who finds it highly unlikely that Vettel will support Webber??!

Pure fantasy, which forum did you read that on ?

[b19bry]

Undoubtedly. When he started in F1 he showed himself to be a great driver -which is why he was so 'sought after' by the other teams.

He moved to Ferrari (a struggling team at the time), even though he had 2 WDC behind him.

I think the $30m a year would have helped in that decision

Knowing how important the car is, he built the team around him. He didn't rely on his 'greatness' to ensure his success - he stayed all hours at the garage (going out and buying meals for the workers if there was nothing else he could do) - in short, he knew the importance of the car. Everyone at Ferrari was motivated by his drive and dedication, and it paid off

The success of the 'team' was just that, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne and Jean Todt as well as the man himself played very significant parts in the phenomena that were the 'Schumacher' years.

[b19bry]

That you do so frequently question not the point i am making, but my right to have an opinion and that i dare to express it in such exalted company as you clearly believe yourself to be, with pompous comments like "and how many formula have you raced in?" (as if anyone who hasn't raced professionally is unworthy of an opinion), leaves me to conclude that you are quite possibly a condescending and arrogant individual with whom reasoned, respectful, civilised debate is simply not possible. So with that said, i endeavour to cease my participation in this line of discussion with you, and to henceforth, ignore any more of the personal and insulting crap you throw my way. Life really is too short.

I've never questioned your right to an opinion or to express it, I do though question the impartiality and credibility of some of the points you try to argue especially given your fondness for making personal attacks and allegations against a certain driver. I'm not claiming I'm any more knowledgeable on the points you try to make, just questioning the veracity of what you say, that's not being insulting. You've had ample opportunity to back up what you say and as far as I see have not done so other than make general statements along the lines that these claims are generally known or accepted.

It's ironic you now wish to ignore the 'personal and insulting crap' when it was you who started down that road with your unsupported personal insults and allegations against Alonso.

[b19bry]

Rain looking likely for Saturday, Hamilton's got to be happy about that

[wackysleet]

Rain looking likely for Saturday, Hamilton's got to be happy about that

Maybe he will but I think that he will continue to take too many silly chances, ahem sorry, I meant opportunities, Sebastian is more than capable of taking on anyone in the wet other than Shumacher the cheat, who will not be competative so no worries there, Jenson is very smooth in the wet but my money is on Fernando to take the WDC but would have liked to see Sebastian take it but for some reason he seems to me to have slightly lost his way.

[waza]

Go Webber

[b19bry]

Rain looking likely for Saturday, Hamilton's got to be happy about that

Maybe he will but I think that he will continue to take too many silly chances, ahem sorry, I meant opportunities, Sebastian is more than capable of taking on anyone in the wet other than Shumacher the cheat, who will not be competative so no worries there, Jenson is very smooth in the wet but my money is on Fernando to take the WDC but would have liked to see Sebastian take it but for some reason he seems to me to have slightly lost his way.

I tend to agree with you David, but if they pay off he stands a good chance to finish well.

I think if Alonso takes then WDC in Sao Paulo there'll likely be a riot

[b19bry]

Go Webber

+1

[F1fanatic]

"Dominically also, interestingly, singled out Webber as their main rival, and he furnished this as insider information from Redbull.

Bottom line. Ferrari is throwing all their weight into this weekend in contrast to what they are saying in the media for some reason, and they "know" that Vettel is going to play the supporting role in the next 2 races."

Just read this on another forum (but only a rumour) - am I the only one who finds it highly unlikely that Vettel will support Webber??!

Pure fantasy, which forum did you read that on ?

Not allowed to mention other forums here I believe, but perhaps foreign F1 forums are OK? It was Planet F1.

For the reason I mentioned I agree that it must be pure fantasy.

Also agree that it was the TEAM that made Ferrari so great during the 'Schumacher' years.

[F1fanatic]

Go Webber

+1

+2! I would dearly love Webber to win the WDC this year.

[rixalex]

Go Webber

+1

+2! I would dearly love Webber to win the WDC this year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9161758.stm

Just read this article and it really made me feel for Webber. Yes of course, we shouldn't feel too sorry for him as he has been blessed with just about the best car of the season, but even so, it's a shame that the team didn't/doesn't take the attitude that yes, Vettel is the future, but let's concentrate on the present, and do all we can to make Webber WDC.

As far as who i want to see win, right now i'm torn three ways. On the one hand i want to see Lewis win because i think he's the best driver, on the other hand, i think Alonso has just recently been driving the best and if he keeps up that form he deserves it (much as obviously it pains me to say it!), and lastly, i think Webber is the nicest guy out there and the "inconvenience" as he puts it, of him beating Vettel is fun to watch.

[F1fanatic]

Its such a shame that Webber made a huge mistake in Korea and didn't gain any points - unlike the other WDC contenders.

All of them have made too many mistakes in my book to 'obviously' deserve the WDC, but I have a soft spot for Webber this year as he is so clearly having to fight the 'team preference'....

[rixalex]

Its such a shame that Webber made a huge mistake in Korea and didn't gain any points - unlike the other WDC contenders.

All of them have made too many mistakes in my book to 'obviously' deserve the WDC, but I have a soft spot for Webber this year as he is so clearly having to fight the 'team preference'....

The mistake in Korea only seems more significant because of its timing, what with it being close to the end. In fact, all of his mistakes have cost him pretty dearly - how dearly? well we'll know in about 10 days.

As far as him becoming WDC is concerned, i think his biggest stumbling block might be bottle and nerve. If a driver starts losing it, getting into a smooth rhythm with the car can be difficult as the fear of making a mistake interferes with their instincts and ability. I think that played a part in Korea for Mark.

[F1fanatic]

Its such a shame that Webber made a huge mistake in Korea and didn't gain any points - unlike the other WDC contenders.

All of them have made too many mistakes in my book to 'obviously' deserve the WDC, but I have a soft spot for Webber this year as he is so clearly having to fight the 'team preference'....

The mistake in Korea only seems more significant because of its timing, what with it being close to the end. In fact, all of his mistakes have cost him pretty dearly - how dearly? well we'll know in about 10 days.

As far as him becoming WDC is concerned, i think his biggest stumbling block might be bottle and nerve. If a driver starts losing it, getting into a smooth rhythm with the car can be difficult as the fear of making a mistake interferes with their instincts and ability. I think that played a part in Korea for Mark.

Yes, but the 'timing' of the mistake is crucial.

He should have been far more careful at this stage in the championship, when he was in the lead but others were so close in points.

Agree with the rest of your post though.

[rixalex]

He should have been far more careful at this stage in the championship, when he was in the lead but others were so close in points.

Actually i think it wasn't so much lack of care that led to the mistake, more like he was being too cautious. Drivers need to be pushing to keep their senses alert, and when they back of that tenth, it can cause a loss of concentration. Anyway, i agree with you that regardless of what caused the mistake, Mark shouldn't have allowed it to happen.

Getting into a leading position come near the end of the season is one thing. Holding ones nerve and getting over the WDC finishing line is another. It's such a momentous possibility looming that can distract the best of drivers. It's why i think Alonso is best placed with his experience combined with his points advantage.

[F1fanatic]

He should have been far more careful at this stage in the championship, when he was in the lead but others were so close in points.

Actually i think it wasn't so much lack of care that led to the mistake, more like he was being too cautious. Drivers need to be pushing to keep their senses alert, and when they back of that tenth, it can cause a loss of concentration. Anyway, i agree with you that regardless of what caused the mistake, Mark shouldn't have allowed it to happen.

Getting into a leading position come near the end of the season is one thing. Holding ones nerve and getting over the WDC finishing line is another. It's such a momentous possibility looming that can distract the best of drivers. It's why i think Alonso is best placed with his experience combined with his points advantage.

Yes, it takes one hel_l of a lot of mental strength to cope with the pressure at this stage in the game.

Alonso has also had a great car recently, and I can't see it changing for the last 2 races (but I hope I'm wrong).

Red Bull have had an outstanding car for quali for the entire season, but I don't think it has been the same for the actual race.

They're better now for the race, but it took a long time coming....

And no (for those that will blame it on the drivers of the RBR), I don't think the poor race pace was down to the drivers. The mistakes obviously were, but not the race pace that didn't reflect the quali pace.

[wackysleet]

F1

Yes, it takes one hel_l of a lot of mental strength to cope with the pressure at this stage in the game.

Alonso has also had a great car recently, and I can't see it changing for the last 2 races (but I hope I'm wrong).

Red Bull have had an outstanding car for quali for the entire season, but I don't think it has been the same for the actual race.

They're better now for the race, but it took a long time coming....

And no (for those that will blame it on the drivers of the RBR), I don't think the poor race pace was down to the drivers. The mistakes obviously were, but not the race pace that didn't reflect the quali pace.

I think you are wrong in your last statement concerning the RBR car being good at qualifying but not really living up to expectations on race day, well it is the same car and engineers are not about to tinker with settings that could have an adverse effect when you have cars sitting on the front row of the grid or very close to it.

my view is that there is a vast difference between racing around a track in qualifying when you do not have to keep looking in your rear views expecting a car to make a move on you, in that scenario you can get the job done in the car that has consistantly been the best all season.

Mark Webber has again in my view shown that he does not quite cut it when he is under racing pressure and he has been guilty of numerous mistakes this season where it appears he has momentarily switched off and I suspect that will be proved in the next couple of races, as for Sebastian I cannot believe that he has not sown the WDC up already, for some inexplicable reason he has certainly under performed this year and as for accusations being bandied about concerning number 1 or number 2 drivers they should stop the bickering and get on with the job they are paid to do, I believe if drivers salaries are not on a par but show considerable difference then that probably gives a clue to whom the team believe is number 1.

[WarpSpeed]

Undoubtedly. When he started in F1 he showed himself to be a great driver -which is why he was so 'sought after' by the other teams.

He moved to Ferrari (a struggling team at the time), even though he had 2 WDC behind him.

Knowing how important the car is, he built the team around him. He didn't rely on his 'greatness' to ensure his success - he stayed all hours at the garage (going out and buying meals for the workers if there was nothing else he could do) - in short, he knew the importance of the car. Everyone at Ferrari was motivated by his drive and dedication, and it paid off

Having said this - of course, even in his best years, he could not deliver a WDC without a good car behind him. 2005 is a case in point plus when he first moved to Ferrari - the difference is that he realised this - IMO Hamilton didn't until last year.

More like he recoginzied he was nothing without the team and car that was assembled around him..