Thaksin Arrives In Cambodia By Private Jet : Thai Fm

[eggomaniac]

Starting a few months ago, in emails and in Posts in Thai Visa, I forecast that if Thaksin were to reenter Thailand it would be at a base of operations on KoChang.

now, how would I know that????????

[Tokay]

When the reds gather again on Sunday, who are they going to protest to? Sunday, most businesses and all government offices are closed. However, after a full night of drinking, Monday morning could get ugly.

[kurtgruen]

I love Bangkok in the late winter especially during demonstration season. The distinct aroma of the Gestapo (brown shirts) is about as people everywhere draw lines and take sides. It's all good by me. Easy to ride my Bicycle around Bangkok for a change. It's really sad though. Too bad that the best deal that the Issan people can get is from a guy like Thaksin. Yellow shirts just want a steady supply of debt slaves to polish their Mercedes, their gemstones and their marble floors. Yellow shirts want a steady supply of untermenchen whores so that they can rip off the tourists who come here to experience "ONE NIGHT IN BANGKOK". The yellow shirts regard the red shirts as something akin to animals to be used up washing yellow shirt underwear, building yellow shirt sky rises, and maybe serving as a Mia Noi for a few good years before tossing her back to the rice fields from where she came. I watched Thaksin improve the lives of the Issan people bit by bit year by year. For those of you who don't know, it is the Issan people who put the SMILE in "THE LAND OF SMILES". Thaksin got them out of usurious interest rate debt enforced by corrupt (yellow shirt) money lenders. He paved their roads and improved infrastructure in those impoverished Issan villages. Ask a few yellow shirts if they have ever even been to Issan and they'll laugh at you with disdain as if Issan is not really even a part of Thailand. Certainly, Issan people are not real "Thai" people in yellow shirt eyes. You have no idea the material improvement that Thaksin orchestrated in these hard working peoples lives. Thaksin got a health care scheme that gave people real access to actual affordable medical care. Guess what? People who had been previously dying from easily treatable conditions got to go to a doctor, see a surgeon, be hospitalized and treated instead of abandoned. Let me tell you something Mister, You save someones life and or get them out of lifelong debt to a yellow shirt loan shark you'll really impress them. They will vote for you over and over again no matter how corrupt you might be otherwise. Is Thaksin SHREWD, dishonest, corrupt? You betcha! Is he any worse than ALL the others? At this point, I think NOT!

hmmm utter nonsense, what proof do you have that the evil yellow shirts were praying on the poor as loan sharks, and no one forced these people to take out loans with crazy intrest rates.....if your not smart enough to realize that its not possible for you to repay a loan with high intrest rate, or to bother figuring out how much that loan is going to cost you over the term you deserve to be poor. Stupid people are stupid people the world around.

hel_l id like a 10 million usd loan, but i know i dont make enough to pay it back,

I agree, utter nonsense! Go to Chiang Mai and see who the money collectors are (not the guys that collect it, but the ones who give out the 20% interest per month loans. I know a couple of them, who sport their "Truth Today", red shirts. (Watgate, trainstation area), maybe some of you know them ;-)

As for the 30 Baht medical scheme, that was a Democrat baby, taken over by Thaksin. He didn't come up with it. (Some of the programs have even been improved by the Democrats, since they came back into power)

Khun Chamlong (one of the "yellow shirt" main leaders), did lots for the poor and against corruption, when he was Governor of Bangkok.

It's easy to spout of Thaksin rhetoric...maybe next time check your facts first. Thaksin threw the poor a few crumbs, to help him get re-elected. Any right wing dictator, with some brains will do that. Hitler did more for the poor of his country, than Thaksin ever will and in my eyes, both of them turned out to be monsters.

[lookpapa]

He fantasizes that he will be welcomed back with a big parade.

Earth to Thaksin -- Thailand is just not that into you!

actually thailand loves khun T

Actually some in Thailand do love him. Yes, people get paid to rallies but this is the norm. Poor people must be reimbursed as they couldn't afford to travel and spend time on political activities; that doesn't mean that they don't have preferences as to who should be in government.

The country is genuinely split in their political alliances. Of course Thaksin mines this for his own purposes just like the other side use the Bangkok elite to stop him.It's a power struggle which must be brought to a conclusion before the country can move on.Hopefully this wekend will bring a definitive end to it although I doubt it. The best two scenarios would be either for the red shirts unable to bring out significant numbers and therefore fail or that they topple the government and elections are held. A mexican stand off is the worst scenario as things fester on. If Thaksin had the guts he'd land in his private jet in Chiang Mai and lead a movement himself , maybe even set up an alternate government in the former Lanna kingdom. He could even claim that it's his legitemate government which was overtaken by a coup when he was out of the country. If he did that all decision by this government and the legal cases against him could be claimed by him as invalid .

Obviously he would be accused as inticing a civil war but these things were negotiated before by the highest authority in the Kingdom.

Trying to manipulate things from afar is not going help Thaksin after this weekend, this is the last throw of the dice. In poker parlance it's all in, gambling everything on the "river".

[connel707]

Obviously those who stay at home are afraid of violence! If demonstrators see that just walking around the town in the sun does not produce any results and the government is not concerned then some of the bad guys will get the idea to perhaps liven up things a bit and like last time to throw some petrol bombs, some grenades, some excrement that is men mak mak because is not hom.

I do not believe anybody believes that paid protestors will make a great change. In my opinion there will be violence. I really hope that I am wrong but history likes to repeat itself. It is hard to control such huge masses of people.

Peace, peace, peace.

What huge masses of people..... there are many more at a Celtic v Rangers match and that can be real crowd trouble.... Bring in the horses..!!

[webfact]

THAKSIN, WHERE'RE YOU?

Govt believes Thaksin is in Cambodia

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Government officials and their opponents yesterday released contradictory information on former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's whereabouts, with the former saying he had left Dubai for Cambodia and the latter claiming he was still in the emirate.

Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, secretary to Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya, first floated news that Thaksin had landed by private jet in Siem Reap in the morning.

The Thai Embassy in Phnom Penh was verifying the information and would report back to the ministry about Thaksin's activities in Cambodia, he said.

Vice Foreign Minister Panich Vikitsreth said he had learnt that following a Thai request, Dubai had asked Thaksin to leave as the United Arab Emirates did not want him to use the country as a launching PAD for attacks against the Thai government.

"He might travel to the country he is familiar with and where he has a close association with its leaders," he said, without naming the destination.

There were no reports from Cambodia on whether Thaksin had arrived in the country.

Acting Government Spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said the ex-premier had travelled from one country to another, but there was no clear information on his current whereabouts.

The locations of Thaksin and his family are a matter of particularly close interest for the government at this time.

The anti-government red-shirt movement called for a huge protest yesterday, which hundreds of thousands people are expected to join in Bangkok over the weekend.

Former foreign minister Noppadon Pattama, who is now a legal adviser to Thaksin, rejected the government's information about his whereabouts, saying he was still in Dubai and planned to see his daughters somewhere in Europe in the next few days.

"For sure, he would not travel to Cambodia during this period when the red-shirted group is holding the protest," he said.

The authorities in Dubai have not forced Thaksin to leave as Kasit is trying to suggest, he added.

"Location is not a big deal for Thaksin, as he can phone in to support the red-shirt protesters from any corner of the globe," Noppadon said.

Thaksin has not yet reunited with his family, as his ex-wife Pojaman na Pombejra is still in Hong Kong and their daughters Pinthongtha and Paetongtarn are in Germany, according to Noppadon.

Thaksin's youngest sister Yinglak Shinawatra had left Thailand for an undisclosed country to seek a school for her child, he added.

Red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan said the movement had no problem with Thaksin's family leaving the country during the protest.

"It's good, as the government will not be able to bother them," he said.

-- The Nation 2010-03-13

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[lazygourmet]

Of circumstance...

And lyrics are -still- accurate !

[connel707]

The fact that Thaksin is flying on his private jet whilst his supporters can hardly feed their families is not only akin, but in lock-step with the financial defrauders of the west. The Wall Street traders are collusory, or better, responsible for the disintegration of the economy, and so what do the banks do for them? Why, give them millions of dollars in bonuses for their "troubles" while the rest of America pays for it.

My point: Dont Thaksins supporters see the embedded hypocrisy? I dont blame them for wanting a better life for their families, but theyve chosen the wrong mascot for this game.

<<snip>>

All that said, I still believe that Thailand needs a completely new set of fresh faces in politics and the population has to work together towards a true democracy and complete fairness at the ballot boxes. It's not going to happen very soon. But if and when the middle class

becomes a majority, we may finally see changes. For the foreseeable future there will continue to be vote buying, rainbow coalitions and street protests. Events could very well turn for the worse when an unmentionable death finally occurs and there is a vast vacuum of power and wealth to be fought over. What we are seeing now is possibly only the supporting event to the main event in the not too distant future.

It's difficult to imagine Thailand without vote buying and corruption everywhere. The Bangkok middle class rejects Thaksin and his paucity of middle class values and thereby does provide some reason to hope for a better quality of leadership at some point in the future, but it's still difficult to imagine that the culture, society and civilization can produce a transformational leader. Abhisit is a Thai who is a product of Oxbridge and its prep school system which in the UK and for other countries shapes and molds reasonably responsible and visionary leaders, but Abhisit himself is at best a shaky promise of the present (who with Korn and a few others are still the best presently or forseeably on offer).

After the anticipated passing occurs, the tradition institution and its forces will need to struggle in unprecedented ways to continue to survive. There's just not much promise in the past 100 years or in the present that Thai culture, society or civilization can produce leaders of the required quality that can produce a peaceful or reasonable resolution to a country so divided that the traditional institution no longer can act as a definitively unifying force, and in which the insurgent rural dispossed elements can successfully get their piece of the pie.

Everyone in the country is still out for their interests and theirs only. They've never been able to see an inch beyond that, and continue to show no signs of doing so presently or in the crutial immediate future. The education system, the family system, the massive corruption endemic to the police force, referred to by the New York Times as the "largest criminal organization in Thailand", the self-rightous military, the clown class of political leaders and the ethically challenged business and corporate class leave litte to hope for. Sorry to be so grim in the assessment of the situation, but the evidence of the past century and of the first decade of this one simply don't offer much promise when promise imperatively needs now to become reality.

Well said, and well put into words something we all know... But things are slowly changing.. and everything takes time... Greed is a monster..!

[tominbkk]

BANGKOK: -- Government officials and their opponents yesterday released contradictory information on former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's whereabouts, with the former saying he had left Dubai for Cambodia and the latter claiming he was still in the emirate.

-- The Nation 2010-03-13

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Typical shoddy reporting...the way The Nation jumps to conclusions all the time I'm surprised they are still open......

[personchester]

Perhaps he is looking forward to having the opportunity to enter Thailand in the same way as the then Iranian leader Ayatollah Khamenei, who entered Baghdad during the Iranian peoples massive streets protests and was received with such wild enthusiasm that it resulted in a total revolution which gave the Ayatollah total political power.

I don't ever remember Ayatollah Khomeini ever being welcomed into the streets of Baghdad. Did I miss something?

As for what you have said though, it is a possibility that The Fugitive may try to cross the border and try to further incite and gather more supporters. So far though, the criminal has shown far too much cowardice to suggest he would actually try to do such a thing - unless the game had already been decided.

Yes, You certainly have, Ayatollah Khamenei (not unlike Thaksin) initiated and organised the Iranian steet protests from his exile in Paris (France) for some time, and when the mass protests reached the required point he left Paris (by air) and entered Baghdad where he was welcomed by a jubiland mass of supporters, as a result the Shah had to leave the country and the Ayatollah acquired total power.

The above mentioned Baghdad street scenes were shown repeatedly on international media, (TV channels and press) at the time, and Thaksin will certainly be well aware of it, and is no doubt hoping that he gets a similar opportunity whilst being in Cambodia during the current red shirts street protests with his private jet on stand by.

[bubba]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

มีข่าวว่าผมถูกขับออกจากUAEไปอยู่ที่เสียมเรียบ ขอโทษทีไม่จริงนะครับผมยังอยู่ท่ีดูไบพรุ่งนี้จะเดินทางไปยุโรปพบกับลูกสาวทั้งสองคนซึ่งดูงานเสร็จ

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

[paulandmaneerat]

This thread started on the 12th, with a positive view that Thaksin really has left Dubai for Cambodia. But this morning (13th) the newspapers are placing a question mark against the matter and no breaking news is changing that. Thaksin's legal advisor says it's not true. So what is the basis for this significant statement of fact?

P&M

[webfact]

Thaksin denies having been expelled from UAE

DUBAI: -- Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra early Saturday denied that he had been expelled from the United Arab Emirates.

He posted messages on his Twitter page at 2 am, saying he was still living in Dubai.

"There were reports that I have been expelled from Dubai. Sorry, it's not true. I am still in Dubai and I'll leave here to see my two daughters," Thaksin said.

His opponents said his family has left the country ahead of expected turbulence by the red-shirt movement over the weekend but Thaksin said his two daughters were simply visiting Europe to observe certain business operations.

-- The Nation 2010-03-13

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[frodo]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

มีข่าวว่าผมถูกขับออกจากUAEไปอยู่ที่เสียมเรียบ ขอโทษทีไม่จริงนะครับผมยังอยู่ท่ีดูไบพรุ่งนี้จะเดินทางไปยุโรปพบกับลูกสาวทั้งสองคนซึ่งดูงานเสร็จ

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

[richard10365]

I'm sorry for the Thai political situation here but I still love living in Thailand and hope the situration gets better.

[bubba]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

มีข่าวว่าผมถูกขับออกจากUAEไปอยู่ที่เสียมเรียบ ขอโทษทีไม่จริงนะครับผมยังอยู่ท่ีดูไบพรุ่งนี้จะเดินทางไปยุโรปพบกับลูกสาวทั้งสองคนซึ่งดูงานเสร็จ

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

I didn't know that, but it puts an interesting spin to all this. If you read through his Twitters, you'll see that his daughters are at some sort of an exhibition in Germany, such as this one:

@AimPintongta Have a safe trip na loog. When I was young, I always attended several trade exhibitions like both of you are going to Germany.

And according to MCOT:

He said in his social network website that his two daughters were scheduled to visit an exhibition and trade fair hotels in Germany which had been booked earlier and that they would visit him in Dubai.

http://www.mcot.net/content/30864

By the way, if you want to follow Thaksin on Twitter, his ID is Thaksinlive

[brancodug]

He mustn't be to broke if he can fly around the world in his private jet... Why was he kicked out of Dubai as the Heading said.

[Sunderland]

Thaksin denies having been expelled from UAE

DUBAI: -- Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra early Saturday denied that he had been expelled from the United Arab Emirates.

He posted messages on his Twitter page at 2 am, saying he was still living in Dubai.

"There were reports that I have been expelled from Dubai. Sorry, it's not true. I am still in Dubai and I'll leave here to see my two daughters," Thaksin said.

His opponents said his family has left the country ahead of expected turbulence by the red-shirt movement over the weekend but Thaksin said his two daughters were simply visiting Europe to observe certain business operations.

-- The Nation 2010-03-13

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

I am sure that Thaksin has the means to appoint someone on his behalf to check and reply to comments on his Twitter account. Even if his ISP could be traced, it doesn't mean that he is actually in that location. So he could in fact be in Germany, the U.A.E. (Dubai), Cambodia or even in a small village on the Thai side of the Mekong River/Wasteland.

I am choosing to take much of what The Nation says with a pinch of salt. It's a shame that Thaivisa's news forum has to rely on this one media source. A more balanced view from several sources (even if in Thai) would allow people to juggle the so-called facts being reported and make up their own minds. Otherwise it is bit like accepting that everything The Sun, The Mirror or The Daily Mail in the U.K. says is the gospel truth.

[khunjamespittman]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

มีข่าวว่าผมถูกขับออกจากUAEไปอยู่ที่เสียมเรียบ ขอโทษทีไม่จริงนะครับผมยังอยู่ท่ีดูไบพรุ่งนี้จะเดินทางไปยุโรปพบกับลูกสาวทั้งสองคนซึ่งดูงานเสร็จ

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

When did this banning occur? I don't recall seeing anything from Germany about it. I suspect this is just another rumor to try to influence people to oppose Thaksin. Be aware of propaganda in the air!

[Donnyboy]

I am sure that Thaksin has the means to appoint someone on his behalf to check and reply to comments on his Twitter account. Even if his ISP could be traced, it doesn't mean that he is actually in that location. So he could in fact be in Germany, the U.A.E. (Dubai), Cambodia or even in a small village on the Thai side of the Mekong River/Wasteland.

I am choosing to take much of what The Nation says with a pinch of salt. It's a shame that Thaivisa's news forum has to rely on this one media source. A more balanced view from several sources (even if in Thai) would allow people to juggle the so-called facts being reported and make up their own minds. Otherwise it is bit like accepting that everything The Sun, The Mirror or The Daily Mail in the U.K. says is the gospel truth.

true but if there are conflicting reports like we have here on his whereabouts, it still leaves us scratching our heads

[frodo]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

มีข่าวว่าผมถูกขับออกจากUAEไปอยู่ที่เสียมเรียบ ขอโทษทีไม่จริงนะครับผมยังอยู่ท่ีดูไบพรุ่งนี้จะเดินทางไปยุโรปพบกับลูกสาวทั้งสองคนซึ่งดูงานเสร็จ

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

When did this banning occur? I don't recall seeing anything from Germany about it. I suspect this is just another rumor to try to influence people to oppose Thaksin. Be aware of propaganda in the air!

There are numerous posts about the various countries that have banned him from entering their countries. I believe you had asked this question before on another thread, and it was answered with links by a few forum members.

[ThailandTommy]

Its the same the world over. Generals marching their fledglings into battle whilst the Generals children are having tea and crumpets. Even if their children ARE enrolled in the military, theyre little more than paper pushers; no real battle experience. Puppetmasters and their puppets, nothing more.

Its no wonder there have been reports of desertion, since their leader is commandant in absentia and his family has flow the koop, and the coup, for that matter. Poor leadership at the very least.

I am politically uninterested in most affairs since they are ALL liars and crooks no matter what colors they don. However, I hope Thaksin fails if nothing more for the fact that he and his family are lilly yellow cowards.

I am politically uninterested in most affairs since they are ALL liars and crooks no matter what colors they don. However, I hope Thaksin fails if nothing more for the fact that he and his family are lilly yellow cowards

You forgot thieving lying!

[bubba]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

When did this banning occur? I don't recall seeing anything from Germany about it. I suspect this is just another rumor to try to influence people to oppose Thaksin. Be aware of propaganda in the air!

OK, here's something from Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/504/471048/text/

Indeed, Thaksin's German visa was revoked on 28 May 2009.

[Squigy]

This is from Thaksin's Twitter page posted seven hours ago:

He is saying that reports of him being forced out of UAE and going to Siem Reap are false and that he will be travelling to Europe tomorrow, apparently Germany from a previous posting. If that's the case, and all this blows up, I wonder what Germany and the EU will have to say about his presence there?

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

When did this banning occur? I don't recall seeing anything from Germany about it. I suspect this is just another rumor to try to influence people to oppose Thaksin. Be aware of propaganda in the air!

OK, here's something from Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/504/471048/text/

Indeed, Thaksin's German visa was revoked on 28 May 2009.

Nah.. He is using one of his 250 other passports....

[mazeltov]

I am choosing to take much of what The Nation says with a pinch of salt. It's a shame that Thaivisa's news forum has to rely on this one media source. A more balanced view from several sources (even if in Thai) would allow people to juggle the so-called facts being reported and make up their own minds. Otherwise it is bit like accepting that everything The Sun, The Mirror or The Daily Mail in the U.K. says is the gospel truth.

it was good enough to open two threads on that topic and the information that Thaksin is in cambodia and the UAE had kicked hom out came right from government officials (if that isn't a The Nation fiction too).

You maybe wanna take everything what comes from that corner with more then just a pinch of salt. you maybe wanna too laugh it off in the first place before looking like somebody that could be easily fooled afterwards.

watching now part two of that show: gullible suckers turn the blahs into a drivel against Thaksin for not acting like the government and or The Nation had it reported.

:holdingacupofcoffeewithasmile: cookies or popcorn anyone?

[mazeltov]

OK, here's something from Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/504/471048/text/

Indeed, Thaksin's German visa was revoked on 28 May 2009.

the question is that when having his residence permit revoked does that also mean that he is not entitled for any other kind of visa?

[frodo]

Here are the links elsewhere in the forum regarding Thaksin being banned from other countries.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3402040

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3402048

For future reference, khunjamespittman, this is the second time you requested "proof," and have failed to follow through with your own requests. Please stop with the " I suspect this is just another rumor to try to influence people to oppose Thaksin. Be aware of propaganda in the air!" stuff.

[cdnvic]

In defence of The Nation, they never reported that Thaksin was in Cambodia, only that the Thai Foreign Minister claimed he was.

[elcent]

OK, here's something from Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/504/471048/text/

Indeed, Thaksin's German visa was revoked on 28 May 2009.

the question is that when having his residence permit revoked does that also mean that he is not entitled for any other kind of visa?

He can travel to any Shengen states with his African diplomatic passport. He's using a loophole. My guess is that he's off to Switzerland to check his accounts there, which probably could be frozen after a possible from him instigated violent outbreak in Bangkok tomorrow. Switzerland will give him a hard time and the trail of the money will be followed.

[otherstuff1957]

He's been banned from Germany and will be arrested if he tries to enter. I hope he does try, should be interesting to see.

When did this banning occur? I don't recall seeing anything from Germany about it. I suspect this is just another rumor to try to influence people to oppose Thaksin. Be aware of propaganda in the air!

OK, here's something from Germany:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/504/471048/text/

Indeed, Thaksin's German visa was revoked on 28 May 2009.

Nah.. He is using one of his 250 other passports....

Some people won't believe anything negative about the Beloved Leader until they read it in the Voice of Taksin or hear it over the UDD radio network.

Remember that quote from some old US senator: "My mind is made up! Don't try to confuse me with the facts."