Tourist Visa Refusal (twice)

[seaneee]

I have recently (15/02/10 and 22/02/10) applied for and been refused a tourist application for my wife to visit my family in the U.K

I felt that i addressed the issues in the first refusal, and subsequently re-applied, however i have now realised that references from friends in Thailand are not enough to prove a subsiting relationship. The ECO clearly does not think my wife is going to return to Thailand!

My circumstances are that i am able to jobshare my self employed job in the uk and as such i get around 6 months in Thailand. I have thai bank accounts and also own through a company a house( 5 years already).

I feel that i now have all the necessary answers with proof to the second refusal, and my question is this. Should i appeal the first decision in the UK or should i apply for a third time? I feel the ECO moved the goalposts with the second refusal by questioning my ownership of my house which wasnt mentioned in the first application. I have now got company papers with translations and a letter from my thai accountant.

Appeal or re-apply? at 3600b a pop its getting expensive!

Has anyone else been refused mul;tiple times and subsequently got a visa ?

[Nio]

Why isn't the house in your wife's name?

Is she legally your wife or just a GF?

If the house was in her name that is all you would need for a visa

If she has never worked, had a bank account and has nothing in her name what do you expect?

If she really is your wife and everything is in your name alone, I would question that if I was immigration as well

Sounds crazy you married a women yet she has no right to anything in her name

[richm7]

Sometimes these bureaucrats baffle me. I'm not at all sure about the UK, but if, like the US you can apply for a change of status and remain in country on a visitor visa (i.e. enter as a visitor, then while there apply to immigrate and get immediate permission to stay) I understand their reluctance. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me. After all, if she wanted to stay, as the wife of a citizen she could apply for a settlement visa and be legal, which is surely the route anyone would take. Of course, if you're not legally married, the picture is entirely different. It sounds to me as if you might be omitting some important details. Apologies for questioning whether you are legally married, but many people in Thailand who have been through the village piss-up consider themselves married when, legally, they're not.

[seaneee]

Why isn't the house in your wife's name?

Is she legally your wife or just a GF?

If the house was in her name that is all you would need for a visa

If she has never worked, had a bank account and has nothing in her name what do you expect?

If she really is your wife and everything is in your name alone, I would question that if I was immigration as well

Sounds crazy you married a women yet she has no right to anything in her name

She is legally my wife.

I have owned my house for 5 years, but only met my now wife 1 year ago so thats why the house is in my name.It would cost a lot to transfer it to her name.

She is a housewife and i have plenty enough income for both of us.

I love and trust her and im sure in the fullness of time things will graduate into her name.

[seaneee]

Sometimes these bureaucrats baffle me. I'm not at all sure about the UK, but if, like the US you can apply for a change of status and remain in country on a visitor visa (i.e. enter as a visitor, then while there apply to immigrate and get immediate permission to stay) I understand their reluctance. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me. After all, if she wanted to stay, as the wife of a citizen she could apply for a settlement visa and be legal, which is surely the route anyone would take. Of course, if you're not legally married, the picture is entirely different. It sounds to me as if you might be omitting some important details. Apologies for questioning whether you are legally married, but many people in Thailand who have been through the village piss-up consider themselves married when, legally, they're not.

I can assure our marraige is legal and took place in BKK. As for the village piss-up, i dont drink alcohol so that wouldnt apply to me.

Can i refer to my original question please.

Should i re-apply or appeal and how long would the appeal be likely to take.

Edited March 13, 2010 by seaneee

[Eff1n2ret]

Why isn't the house in your wife's name?

Is she legally your wife or just a GF?

If the house was in her name that is all you would need for a visa

If she has never worked, had a bank account and has nothing in her name what do you expect?

If she really is your wife and everything is in your name alone, I would question that if I was immigration as well

Sounds crazy you married a women yet she has no right to anything in her name

She is legally my wife.

I have owned my house for 5 years, but only met my now wife 1 year ago so thats why the house is in my name.It would cost a lot to transfer it to her name.

She is a housewife and i have plenty enough income for both of us.

I love and trust her and im sure in the fullness of time things will graduate into her name.

A perfectly reasonable explanation, and whether a sponsor has bought his wife a house or anything else does not necessarily have a bearing on whether she should be granted a visa.

Looks like they are determined to refuse her, and you'll have to take them to appeal. I would submit an appeal against both refusals, and cross-reference them to ensure they are considered together.

[richm7]

The "piss-up" comment was a joke. It never even inferred that you partook. Lighten up.

If you want her to go she'll have to reapply, of course. Otherwise, address their objections and cross your fingers. You're asking "how long is a piece of string". Nobody knows.

Sometimes these bureaucrats baffle me. I'm not at all sure about the UK, but if, like the US you can apply for a change of status and remain in country on a visitor visa (i.e. enter as a visitor, then while there apply to immigrate and get immediate permission to stay) I understand their reluctance. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me. After all, if she wanted to stay, as the wife of a citizen she could apply for a settlement visa and be legal, which is surely the route anyone would take. Of course, if you're not legally married, the picture is entirely different. It sounds to me as if you might be omitting some important details. Apologies for questioning whether you are legally married, but many people in Thailand who have been through the village piss-up consider themselves married when, legally, they're not.

I can assure our marraige is legal and took place in BKK. As for the village piss-up, i dont drink alcohol so that wouldnt apply to me.

Can i refer to my original question please.

Should i re-apply or appeal and how long would the appeal be likely to take.

[cavelight]

A few questions (some unpleasant and NO INSULT INTENDED)...

Do you have a Thai marriage certificate ? (you would have been given two duplicate original copies of this when you attended the registry office)

Have you included details of sponsorship for the trip by senior UK family member/s?

Do you hold a full normal UK passport?

How long has your wife held a full Thai passport?

Has your wife been able to provide full details of her family/parents living in Thailand?

Does your wife have a criminal record in Thailand (no insult intended, and of course don't answer if you don't want to). Has she told you everything about her past? Again, absolutely no insult intended. The visa office have access to records that you and your wife are not allowed to see.

Finally, and again no insult intended, do you have a criminal record in the UK?

================================================

[mmushr00m]

How much overseas traveling has you wife done?

Are the both of you around the same age?

She speaks english?

Again not intended to be insulting but these factors do count.

You can trytravelling to a few countries 1st, that way if she has a few visa stamps on her passport it will show (hopefully) that she has traveleld and have always returned to Thailand.

[seaneee]

A few questions (some unpleasant and NO INSULT INTENDED)...

Do you have a Thai marriage certificate ? (you would have been given two duplicate original copies of this when you attended the registry office)

Have you included details of sponsorship for the trip by senior UK family member/s?

Do you hold a full normal UK passport?

How long has your wife held a full Thai passport?

Has your wife been able to provide full details of her family/parents living in Thailand?

Does your wife have a criminal record in Thailand (no insult intended, and of course don't answer if you don't want to). Has she told you everything about her past? Again, absolutely no insult intended. The visa office have access to records that you and your wife are not allowed to see.

Finally, and again no insult intended, do you have a criminal record in the UK?

================================================

1. yes i do have a thai marraige certificate with the floral surrounds and also certified translations of it.

2. I still am self employed and as well as having a house in Thailand i own quite a few properties in U,K also. Including one that is kept vacant for my times that i spend working in the U.k every year. About 6 months.

3. yes i hold a full uk passport for all of my life. I am 38 and caucasian.

4. my wife got her passport last september because we planned this visit for her to meet my extended family then.

5. Yes she has provided this.

no i am clean of character all my life with an annual income exceeding 50,000 pounds .

On reflection i feel i have been a little naieve in thinking that an ECO would believe everything i write in a sponsors letter. However that said i think that they are over the top in that they dont believe a word i have said.

Maybe this is why i feel so annoyed because they state that my wife is unemployed when in fact she is a housewife. They said she has no assets when i have already said that i provide fully for her. This has now been addressed by making my thai account a joint account and there is a a few hundred thousand baht in that account.

I am confident that i can now prove all points made regarding this refusal, so should i appeal or re-apply?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

A family visit visa attracts the right of appeal it takes up to 6 weeks.

[seaneee]

A family visit visa attracts the right of appeal it takes up to 6 weeks.

Thanks for that. would you recommend appeal or a re-application? I am going back to the UK in a few days and my wife obviously now isnt coming with me. Do you think i have more chance with appeal or with a new application.

do you have knowledge of other people with multiple refusals that subsequently got a new application through, or do you know about the likelehood of winning an appeal?

thanks

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Obviously I have experience of dealing with refusals as this is my line of business, I would appeal.

If you require professional help feel free to contact me I'm currently working in my Thai office for the next 6 months.

[seaneee]

Obviously I have experience of dealing with refusals as this is my line of business, I would appeal.

If you require professional help feel free to contact me I'm currently working in my Thai office for the next 6 months.

Appealing was my line of thought also. Thanks.

On the appeal form it asks if i want appeal to be decided by the papers or by oral hearing. I will be in the uk for the next few months so what would you choose?

also i need some translation done rather quickly. Does your office do this?? Im living just outside Pattaya.

Edited March 13, 2010 by seaneee

[jim1563]

Quick question how do you show that your wife owns the house for a family visit visa is it a photo copy of the blue book or chanote Jim?

[7by7]

Assuming that you applied for a family visit visa then she can appeal.

Without knowing exactly what the refusal notice says, it is impossible to comment on the refusals.

Appeals can be complicated, so you should seek the advice of a professional. Either a level 2 or above OISC adviser or a specialist immigration solicitor in the UK.

[micky44]

Assuming that you applied for a family visit visa then she can appeal.

Without knowing exactly what the refusal notice says, it is impossible to comment on the refusals.

Appeals can be complicated, so you should seek the advice of a professional. Either a level 2 or above OISC adviser or a specialist immigration solicitor in the UK.

Just out of curiosity, is Thai Visa Express company that reply to so many queries on this forum at level 2 or above oisc ?

[saintofsilence]

You should supply photos also as eveidence of relationship with places you have been together , without solid proof that your relationship it wont get through a marriage certificate should be ok but that doesn't show that you have lived together.

[theoldgit]

Just out of curiosity, is Thai Visa Express company that reply to so many queries on this forum at level 2 or above oisc ?

Thai Visa Express is certainly registered as an Immigration Advisor with OISC and as such is legally able to provide immigration advice in the UK, you don't need to be registered in Thailand, that's why there are so many cowboys out there.

I am pretty sure that TVE is a Level 1 advisor and as such would not competent to lodge an appeal, though he would certainly be able to point you in the right direction.

[seaneee]

You should supply photos also as eveidence of relationship with places you have been together , without solid proof that your relationship it wont get through a marriage certificate should be ok but that doesn't show that you have lived together.

I enclosed at least 8 photos of us all over Thailand...Hau Hin, Chiang Rai, Bkk, Koh Samet, Pattaya, and a few from around my home.

[seaneee]

Well just to keep you all updated, i have submitted my appeal on the 16th march. I decided to post it to Bangkok in the hope that would be faster. I have now travelled home to the UK alone and my wife has now enrolled on a hair and beauty course (full-time) which will keep her busy whilst im away. I must admit that im missing her like mad, and im really disapointed at her refusal. trying to explain to my family and friends that my wife cant come to the UK with me because the Borders agency dont believe our relationship is genuine is difficult and everybodies response is amazement that as a person of good character, good employment, good financial status and i still got refused a visa for my wife. It kind of hurts when i see all the ex hookers walking around my home town, but i live in hope the appeal will work.

I have today visited my MPs office for the 3rd time and he called the Borders agency and they have confirmed that they have received my appeal. My Mp says he will now send a letter to them next week and enclosing a reference for me also.

I will keep you informed of any developements.

ps It seems to me from research done since our refusal that visas for a wife are more likely to fail than one for a girlfriend.

Edited March 26, 2010 by seaneee

[7by7]

It kind of hurts when i see all the ex hookers walking around my home town

How do you know what occupation these women may have followed in the past? It's not relevant, anyway! I suggest that you put your prejudices to one side and concentrate on your own case.

From what you have posted it is obvious that the applications failed because you did not provide the necessary evidence. ECOs are not mind readers and the onus is upon the applicant to provide the necessary evidence that they qualify for the visa applied for.

It seems to me from research done since our refusal that visas for a wife are more likely to fail than one for a girlfriend.

A visit visa for a wife when both she and the husband are living together in the same country is relatively easy to obtain. However, when the wife is living abroad and the husband is living in the UK then the application needs to explain why this is so in order to overcome concerns that once in the UK the wife will stay there.

N.B. I have closed your other topic on this to avoid confusion.

[theoldgit]

It seems to me from research done since our refusal that visas for a wife are more likely to fail than one for a girlfriend.

Pray what research was that?

[PhilHarries]

Maybe this is why i feel so annoyed because they state that my wife is unemployed when in fact she is a housewife. They said she has no assets when i have already said that i provide fully for her. This has now been addressed by making my thai account a joint account and there is a a few hundred thousand baht in that account.

I am confident that i can now prove all points made regarding this refusal, so should i appeal or re-apply?

I believe this may be the problem. Your wife need to supply solid evidence that she intends to return to Thailand. As she has no job and no assets she has no ties to the country and, as they see it, no reason to return - nothing stopping her just going to ground and becoming an illegal.

It doesn't matter how much you earn nor what properties you own and where. A few hundred thousand deposited in a hastily open bank account ain't going to make a ha'porth of difference.

As she's had two refusals I can't think of anything that would change the situation. Even if you transferred your house into her name I think they'd smell a rat.

[7by7]

If she was 'not wanted' in the UK, they'd not only have refused her they would have put a PNG stamp in her passport.

Assets in Thailand may help but is not essential, as many here will testify.

Each application is treated on it's own merits. Previous foreign travel and compliance with a third country's entry requirements may help as it shows the applicant to be trustworthy; but as many here will testify is not essential. As Thais can visit Singapore without a visa, this wouldn't carry as much weight as a visit to, for example, Australia.

Your 'great secret' is not any secret; it's completely untrue.

A criminal record may be detrimental to a visit application; depends on what the conviction was for and how long ago it was.

As already said; both refusals seem to be down to insufficient evidence (although without seeing the refusal notice it is impossible to say for sure). Presumably the OP has now provided the missing evidence with the appeal, and hopefully the last refusal will be overturned in post without having to go to a hearing in the UK.

[seaneee]

It kind of hurts when i see all the ex hookers walking around my home town

How do you know what occupation these women may have followed in the past? It's not relevant, anyway! I suggest that you put your prejudices to one side and concentrate on your own case.

I know this to be fact because i know the bars they used to work in at least 5 cases. Its not a prejudice, its just stating facts that being a prostitute in the past doesnt stop entry to the UK, but my wife who has never sold herself is told that our relationship is not genuine by someone that never ever met us. That what sucks.

From what you have posted it is obvious that the applications failed because you did not provide the necessary evidence. ECOs are not mind readers and the onus is upon the applicant to provide the necessary evidence that they qualify for the visa applied for.

With all due respect, the amount of evidence is infinite if the ECO wishes it to be. I have personally helped half a dozen friends with previous applications (all successful) and none were required to prove things i have been asked to prove.

What sucks is that im at a loss to prove a genuine relationship if the eco feels it isnt genuine. It kind of grates me when i know i am an honest , genuine, law abiding, tax paying person that always follows the rules of the country.

Edited March 27, 2010 by seaneee

[7by7]

I cannot see how you can know for a fact that these five women used to work in bars as prostitutes unless you frequented their places of employment and utilised their services. Yet you have claimed to be a person of good character who does not drink alcohol. It seems that your 'fact' is merely hearsay at best!

Even if these women have previously worked in that industry, it is no bar to obtaining a UK visa; settlement or visit; provided they have given up that line of work and don't lie about it in their application. To be frank, many British male/Thai female relationships began 'professionally.' Most then settle down in the UK with their partner to a happy life, except for the occasional remark from the ignorant and prejudiced. If they and their partner are happy with the situation and their past, what concern is it to anyone else?

Rather than ranting about how unfair it is that these women can get a visa whilst your, apparently pure as the driven snow, wife can't you would be better served making sure that your appeal evidence is complete.

The fact is that these women got their visa because, as well as the other requirements, they proved the relationship with their sponsor is genuine. From what you have posted, your wife was refused because she didn't.

Assuming that these women are in the UK for settlement purposes, reason to return would not be a factor; your wife wants to visit, so reason to return is important. What does the refusal notice say about that?

The ECO can only make a judgment based upon the evidence provided by the applicant. From what you have posted it appears that the evidence provided was incomplete, particularly concerning why you live in the UK and she in Thailand. I know you explained that in your OP, but did you do so in the application?

If you have previously helped friends with successful applications, it is surprising that you cocked it up this time. If the basis of their application was the relationship between applicant and sponsor then they, too, would have been required to prove that the relationship was genuine. If you are being required to provide extra proof this is possibly because you live in the UK and your wife lives in Thailand; was this the case in all the applications where you helped?

But I repeat, unless you are prepared to post a full copy of the refusal notice (deleting any identifying parts, such as names) then it is impossible to comment specifically.

[RAZZELL]

Rather than ranting about how unfair it is that these women can get a visa whilst your, apparently pure as the driven snow, wife can't you would be better served making sure that your appeal evidence is complete.

The fact is that these women got their visa because, as well as the other requirements, they proved the relationship with their sponsor is genuine. From what you have posted, your wife was refused because she didn't.

Assuming that these women are in the UK for settlement purposes, reason to return would not be a factor; your wife wants to visit, so reason to return is important. What does the refusal notice say about that?

The ECO can only make a judgment based upon the evidence provided by the applicant. From what you have posted it appears that the evidence provided was incomplete, particularly concerning why you live in the UK and she in Thailand. I know you explained that in your OP, but did you do so in the application?

If you have previously helped friends with successful applications, it is surprising that you cocked it up this time.

I'm afraid OP, you can only blame yourself.

RAZZ

[seaneee]

I cannot see how you can know for a fact that these five women used to work in bars as prostitutes unless you frequented their places of employment and utilised their services. Yet you have claimed to be a person of good character who does not drink alcohol. It seems that your 'fact' is merely hearsay at best!

Even if these women have previously worked in that industry, it is no bar to obtaining a UK visa; settlement or visit; provided they have given up that line of work and don't lie about it in their application. To be frank, many British male/Thai female relationships began 'professionally.' Most then settle down in the UK with their partner to a happy life, except for the occasional remark from the ignorant and prejudiced. If they and their partner are happy with the situation and their past, what concern is it to anyone else?

Rather than ranting about how unfair it is that these women can get a visa whilst your, apparently pure as the driven snow, wife can't you would be better served making sure that your appeal evidence is complete.

The fact is that these women got their visa because, as well as the other requirements, they proved the relationship with their sponsor is genuine. From what you have posted, your wife was refused because she didn't.

Assuming that these women are in the UK for settlement purposes, reason to return would not be a factor; your wife wants to visit, so reason to return is important. What does the refusal notice say about that?

The ECO can only make a judgment based upon the evidence provided by the applicant. From what you have posted it appears that the evidence provided was incomplete, particularly concerning why you live in the UK and she in Thailand. I know you explained that in your OP, but did you do so in the application?

If you have previously helped friends with successful applications, it is surprising that you cocked it up this time. If the basis of their application was the relationship between applicant and sponsor then they, too, would have been required to prove that the relationship was genuine. If you are being required to provide extra proof this is possibly because you live in the UK and your wife lives in Thailand; was this the case in all the applications where you helped?

But I repeat, unless you are prepared to post a full copy of the refusal notice (deleting any identifying parts, such as names) then it is impossible to comment specifically.

i dont want to get into an argument with you 7by7, but i assure you that i know that they were hookers, because in all circumstatnces it was my friends that were with me in Thailand, when they met bargirls, and subsequently went on to marry them.

Believe it or not, guys that are tee total are still allowed in bars, and i dont class myself as being not of good character because i have visited bars in which barfines are available. Tell you what, i will even admit to sleeping with Thai bargirls myself in the past. So my "FACT" is fact and not hearsay.

As for the comment about my wife being pure, i can only think that i have rattled your cage because maybe your wife is an ex working girl. I would never have mentioned that fact but for your sarcastic comment about my wife.

My refusal says that my wife has no assets, no land and no money so she has no reason to return. I have now deposited money in her account and made my account joint with her. I have seen many Thai girls with no assets/land etc getting visas and i can assure you that i wouldnt wish to wreck my "good character" by living with an illegal immigrant in the UK and they aslo had copies of my passport showing that for the past 5 years i have on average entered Thailand every 2 months.

You say it is obvious my evidence is incomplete, but again i assure you that they didnt look at my evidence. I own a house in the UK and 1 in Thailand and i spend my time 50/50 between the 2 properties.

As for cocking up this application, my MP has just agreed that the second ECO has made 3 mistakes in his/her refusal and i feel that it wasnt even looked at properly.

As for not commenting specificaly, you seem to have done a pretty good job of making out that im the one who cocked it up and ECOs never make mistakes etc.

Whilst i am far from perfect, i am reasonably well educated, and i run a successful company and i manage to work just 6 months/yr.

I can assure you that there is a reason for this refusal above the evidence. I feel that ECOs are being espescially tough on wife applications at the moment, maybe because many broke guys are tring to sneak their wives home to the UK this way.

I love my wife, and i miss her terribly. If im being emotional, its because im really upset that we have to be apart and some civil servant says that our relationship is not a genuine subsisting one when everybody who knows me knows that we have a genuine loving relationship.

Maybe the answer would be to sell up in the Uk and move abroad with my wife. Spain maybe. Crazy thing is, she is allowed there.

[seaneee]

I'm afraid OP, you can only blame yourself.

RAZZ

Maybe i will just slash my wrists now!