Tourist Visa Refusal (twice)

[theoldgit]

Seaneee, people are trying to help you and if that means playing devils advocate to point you in the right direction then so be it, there is no point getting tetchy with other posters.

The fact it that it is up to you and your wife to convince the ECO that you have a sustaining relationship and the ECO has refused the application because they don't believe you have done so. You must surly accept that the circumstances that you describe are pretty unusual and I am sure that you will understand why the ECO is concerned.

If your MP has pointed out that the ECO has made mistakes, and in my experience most MP's don't have a great understanding of the various Immigration Acts and certainly not of entry clearance procedures, well these may well be your wife's grounds for appeal, but you must really address the reasons for refusal and prove that given your unusual circumstances the application is genuine, she will return at the end of the trip and she is not hoping to circumnavigate the immigration rules.

Whilst I understand the points you make about "the hookers" that have "all got visas", that is really a red herring. You say your wife is allowed into Spain, well if she has a Schengen Visa and can prove that she has returned from trips to Spain then that might help convince the ECO that her returning from trips to other visa countries indicates that on the balance of probabilities she will return.

I wish you every success.

[RAZZELL]

Maybe i will just slash my wrists now!

I'm glad you've still got a sense of humour :D

All the best and keep plugging away, you'll get there in the end

RAZZ

[7by7]

As usual. theoldgit has hit the nail right on the head. My comments were made to get you out of your apparent Kevin the Teenager mode of wailing that "It's sooo unfair" and start thinking about what you need to so to ensure the success of your appeal. (BTW, do your friends know that you are posting on a public forum that it hurts you to see their 'ex hooker' wives walking around town?)

If im being emotional, its because im really upset that we have to be apart and some civil servant says that our relationship is not a genuine subsisting one when everybody who knows me knows that we have a genuine loving relationship.

That's the point which you consistently fail to grasp; the ECO does not know you and your wife! So you need to provide the evidence that the relationship is genuine.

As to what mistakes the ECO may or may have not made; without seeing the refusal notice it is impossible to comment. That you have not provided a copy is your choice, but to be frank I have seen so many posts that, like yours, say that the ECO has got it all wrong and didn't look at the evidence, only to find out when seeing the notice that the reason the ECO doesn't believe them is because they didn't provide the evidence, or contradicted themselves. You only talk about the ECO not believing your relationship is genuine; I ask again, what does the refusal notice say about her returning to Thailand?

You keep going on about your assets, your good character; but it's not your application; it's your wife's. That you have been visiting Thailand for the past five years is irrelevant as you say that you have only known her for 1 year. What proof of that relationship did you provide? What evidence that she would have returned to Thailand?

Changing property title to her name and putting funds into her account is shutting the stable door; the appeal will only consider whether the refusal was correct under the rules considering her circumstances at the time of the application. You can, and should, submit new evidence pertaining to those circumstances; but changes to her circumstances since the application will probably be ignored.

As theoldgit says, unless your MP is an immigration expert, don't put too much faith in what he or she says about the refusal. Remember that if the ECO/ECM believe that the refusal is within the rules then your MP will not be able to get them to change their minds. The best that you can hope for is that they will look a little more closely at the evidence before deciding whether to overturn the refusal or forward the bundle on the the FTTIAC. If they feel the refusal was correct then they wont overturn it on your MP's say so and the case will be forwarded to the FTTIAC.

Only the tribunal can then change the decision. In the UK the judiciary is independent of the legislature; and long may it remain so.

Finally, when ECOs make mistakes I am more than ready and willing to acknowledge it, though maybe not condemn them; they are human and as capable of error as the rest of us. As I have repeatedly said, without sight of the refusal notice it is impossible to judge who made the mistakes, but everything you have said so far indicates that it was you; you even come very close to admitting it in your OP!

It is now down to you. You can prepare as rock solid appeal as possible, providing as much extra evidence as possible about your relationship and her reasons to return to Thailand; or you can continue to whinge on about how unfair it is that your friend's 'ex hooker' wives can get visas but yours can't. Were I in your situation (and I was in a very similar one 9 years ago) then I know what I would do.

Oh, and you can make whatever assumptions you like about how my wife and I met and her past; just like you made assumptions about how to get a visit visa for your wife.

[yeesipha]

I will always say it,in my opinion a really good covering sponsorship letter sways it with the ECO,you need to explain everything to them, i mean everything.This is the only communication you have with the ECO.

[Chivas]

Appeal or resubmit for the tourist visa and if turned down again bite the bullet and apply for a settlement visa.

(Wait for the flaming to start...........)

[MB1]

Whilst i am far from perfect, i am reasonably well educated, and i run a successful company and i manage to work just 6 months/yr.

I can assure you that there is a reason for this refusal above the evidence. I feel that ECOs are being espescially tough on wife applications at the moment, maybe because many broke guys are tring to sneak their wives home to the UK this way.

I love my wife, and i miss her terribly. If im being emotional, its because im really upset that we have to be apart and some civil servant says that our relationship is not a genuine subsisting one when everybody who knows me knows that we have a genuine loving relationship.

Maybe the answer would be to sell up in the Uk and move abroad with my wife. Spain maybe. Crazy thing is, she is allowed there.

Seaneee, the post I'm replying to above, you say you own A house in Thailand and you own A house in the UK but in post ten you say you own quite a few properties in the UK, quoted from post ten below.....

2. I still am self employed and as well as having a house in Thailand i own quite a few properties in U,K also. Including one that is kept vacant for my times that i spend working in the U.k every year. About 6 months.

You say that you have made 2 applications and both have been refused, I'm just wondering if the second application was refused because there were inconsistancies and contradiction to the first application.

I'm in agreement with the posters who say that it's you that may have cocked up your applications.

Appeal or re-apply? at 3600b a pop its getting expensive!

You say you love your wife (post 4), you also say you have an annual income of £50,000 pounds(post 10) and it's getting expensive at 3,600 baht a pop, If you earn as much as you say you do I wouldnt let 3,600 baht worry you..

Edited March 27, 2010 by MB1

[Kadafi]

You should supply photos also as eveidence of relationship with places you have been together , without solid proof that your relationship it wont get through a marriage certificate should be ok but that doesn't show that you have lived together.

I enclosed at least 8 photos of us all over Thailand...Hau Hin, Chiang Rai, Bkk, Koh Samet, Pattaya, and a few from around my home.

wow 8 photo's!! how did you get so many? lol. I can just imagine each photo, both of you standing by a recognisable landmark in each town, like the big Pattaya sign

[seaneee]

Whilst i am far from perfect, i am reasonably well educated, and i run a successful company and i manage to work just 6 months/yr.

I can assure you that there is a reason for this refusal above the evidence. I feel that ECOs are being espescially tough on wife applications at the moment, maybe because many broke guys are tring to sneak their wives home to the UK this way.

I love my wife, and i miss her terribly. If im being emotional, its because im really upset that we have to be apart and some civil servant says that our relationship is not a genuine subsisting one when everybody who knows me knows that we have a genuine loving relationship.

Maybe the answer would be to sell up in the Uk and move abroad with my wife. Spain maybe. Crazy thing is, she is allowed there.

Seaneee, the post I'm replying to above, you say you own A house in Thailand and you own A house in the UK but in post ten you say you own quite a few properties in the UK, quoted from post ten below.....

2. I still am self employed and as well as having a house in Thailand i own quite a few properties in U,K also. Including one that is kept vacant for my times that i spend working in the U.k every year. About 6 months.

You say that you have made 2 applications and both have been refused, I'm just wondering if the second application was refused because there were inconsistancies and contradiction to the first application.

I'm in agreement with the posters who say that it's you that may have cocked up your applications.

Appeal or re-apply? at 3600b a pop its getting expensive!

You say you love your wife (post 4), you also say you have an annual income of £50,000 pounds(post 10) and it's getting expensive at 3,600 baht a pop, If you earn as much as you say you do I wouldnt let 3,600 baht worry you..

My business in the Uk is a property developer and as such my company owns over 30 houses that i rent out. I will clarify..... I keep one house in the Uk for personal use and and one in Thailand as a personal house. Hope that clarifies that.

there were no inconsistancies at all and nothing i have told them cannot be proved.

As for saying its expensive, please remember that the day out to Bangkok alsocosts us money. I didnt say i couldnt afford it, just that i still value money and 3600baht is expensive when the ECO dont even look at it.

Maybe with hindsight, i have cocked it up, but why i ask do they believe most people on certain things, but not me on the same things?

[seaneee]

You should supply photos also as eveidence of relationship with places you have been together , without solid proof that your relationship it wont get through a marriage certificate should be ok but that doesn't show that you have lived together.

I enclosed at least 8 photos of us all over Thailand...Hau Hin, Chiang Rai, Bkk, Koh Samet, Pattaya, and a few from around my home.

wow 8 photo's!! how did you get so many? lol. I can just imagine each photo, both of you standing by a recognisable landmark in each town, like the big Pattaya sign

We actually have around a hundred or so pics, but i thought around 8 or 10 would be ok.

What do others think is a reasonable amount of pic to submit?

[7by7]

there were no inconsistancies at all and nothing i have told them cannot be proved.

You should have proved it at the time!

why i ask do they believe most people on certain things, but not me on the same things?

Because most people provide documentary evidence to support what they say; the more you post the more it appears that you didn't, or at least what you provided was insufficient.

On the evidence side; too much is always better than too little.

However, again, to give you specific comments or advice we need to see the refusal notice. You don't want to post a copy; which is your choice and right. But could it be that deep down you know that these refusals aren't because she doesn't qualify, aren't because the ECOs made mistakes or somehow discriminated against her; they're because, as so many are, the applicant and sponsor failed to provide the evidence to support the application.

Maybe with hindsight, i have cocked it up

I know I have roused your ire with some of my comments; but please believe me when I say it was done with the best of intentions. If what I posted made you think about the applications and what more you could have done, and so should do for the appeal, then it was worth it, I feel.

Best of luck.

[knortyboy]

I love my wife, and i miss her terribly. If im being emotional, its because im really upset that we have to be apart and some civil servant says that our relationship is not a genuine subsisting one when everybody who knows me knows that we have a genuine loving relationship.

Unfortunately, as others have said the ECO doesn't know you or is able ask your friends.

I read something a long time ago which I think helped when we applied for a visa for my (now) wife, and that was to explain and back up with evidence everything you say in the application as if the ECO was a small child and you were trying to explain it to them. It sounds silly but if you make it as straight forward as possible then there is less chance of confusion or the ECO overlooking anything.

Best of luck with your appeal.

[seaneee]

I just want to update to let members know where i am at.

I submitted the appeal to BKK hoping that the ECM would note my points and overturn the original decision.

The tribunal gave the ECM 2 months to consider my appeal and then forward their decision to the tribunal in UK.

The ECM has failed to forward anything to the tribunal by the date they were told to do so.

The tribunal has now suggested i send copies of everything to them myself in view of the fact the ECM failed to do so.

Luckily i kept full copies of my appeal docs and i will forward them to the tribunal today.

I called the tribunal people and was told that it is quite usual for the ECM not to file anything at all.

Seems incompetent to me when they had 2 months to do so.

Im still missing my wife like crazy.

[stament]

Good luck and keep us updated, we're all rooting for you.

[seaneee]

OK guys i have some news..............success!!!

My wife had a call from the embassy today just 3 days before our appeal hearing in the UK. The person who called said that following a review it had been decided to issue her visa! Im so Happy. The caller said that she would receive a letter in a few days and she should take the letter and her passport to Bangkok and they would issue the visa. Has anyone else done this? what are the procedures and times? etc etc

Although we are both ecstatic I still feel that we were made to jump through hoops to get a visa when a simple phone call at the time could and would have sorted everything out in days.

That said im looking forward to getting back to Thailand next week and then bringing my wife back to the Uk to meet my parents and extended family.

The four or so months of hel_l are now behind us and we are both looking to the future.

[7by7]

I am glad that this refusal has been overturned, but

I still feel that we were made to jump through hoops to get a visa when a simple phone call at the time could and would have sorted everything out in days

The onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence in support of their application. There is no requirement for the ECOs to chase after evidence that is missing, and considering their workload they very rarely have the time to do so.

With respect, that the refusal has been overturned in post shows that had you provided the necessary evidence at the time, your wife would not have been refused.

[seaneee]

<BR>The onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence in support of their application. There is no requirement for the ECOs to chase after evidence that is missing, and considering their workload they very rarely have the time to do so.<BR><STRONG><FONT size=5>Yes but as there is no definitive list then it is impossible to know if you have given them all the information they need. I can honestly say that ive never heard of anyone failed because they didnt prove that they owned a home in Thailand.</FONT></STRONG><BR>With respect, that the refusal has been overturned in post shows that had you provided the necessary evidence at the time, your wife would not have been refused.<BR><BR><STRONG><FONT size=5>tool</FONT></STRONG><BR><BR>

[norrona]

oh well at least you got sorted in the end, the part where the ECO didn't bother to supply the paperwork is shocking and won't win them any sympathy on here even with their strenuous work load we have been told about:rolleyes:

as for jumping through hoops, I worked in Thailand for nealry 10 years and it is just part of the daily frustrations over there, if someones got what you want and they are the only place you can get it then it is always that way and they know full well about it and certainly like to milk it....

my fiancee and I are waiting for one of the ECO's to decide with further submitted evidence whether or not they will overturn the refusal decision they made all the way back in March, she emailed them asking about the appeal and if it was any closer to being decided upon (we have been given 26th July as a date but you know what women are like) also in that email she said if they wanted to talk further then here is her number.

they called her(I was astonished they did) she was told 'we have 4 months to reply to you and intend to take the full 4 months'

until August then

[7by7]

The onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence in support of their application. There is no requirement for the ECOs to chase after evidence that is missing, and considering their workload they very rarely have the time to do so.

Yes but as there is no definitive list then it is impossible to know if you have given them all the information they need.

There is guidance and the document checklist; true, neither are definitive simply because every applicant's circumstances are different and every case is treated on it's own merits. Both the guidance and the checklist say that applicant's should include anything else that they feel may support their application.

I can honestly say that ive never heard of anyone failed because they didnt prove that they owned a home in Thailand

Neither have I, and I also know of many successful visit applicants who did not own property in Thailand. However, from what you yourself have posted earlier, I doubt that this was the main, let alone only, reason for the refusal.

Coding errors make the rest of your post unreadable.

You obviously think I am being harsh on you and it appears that you want to place all the blame on the ECOs. It is true that ECOs do make errors; they are only human and are under enormous pressure from their superiors to process as many applications as possible in as short a time as possible. I read on here some time ago a post from an ex ECO that they have less than 10 minutes to look at an application and make a decision!

The reason for my comments is not to raise your ire; it is to emphasise to others, and yourself for any future applications, the need to cover all the bases; to think of what the ECO may want to see and provide it; to think of any possible question the ECO may have and provide an answer.

In other words, to learn from this experience so that future applications go smoothly and the requested visa is issued with the minimum of delay.

Whether you take that on board or not is your choice.

[seaneee]

The onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence in support of their application. There is no requirement for the ECOs to chase after evidence that is missing, and considering their workload they very rarely have the time to do so.

Yes but as there is no definitive list then it is impossible to know if you have given them all the information they need.

There is guidance and the document checklist; true, neither are definitive simply because every applicant's circumstances are different and every case is treated on it's own merits. Both the guidance and the checklist say that applicant's should include anything else that they feel may support their application.

I can honestly say that ive never heard of anyone failed because they didnt prove that they owned a home in Thailand

Neither have I, and I also know of many successful visit applicants who did not own property in Thailand. However, from what you yourself have posted earlier, I doubt that this was the main, let alone only, reason for the refusal.

Coding errors make the rest of your post unreadable.

You obviously think I am being harsh on you and it appears that you want to place all the blame on the ECOs. It is true that ECOs do make errors; they are only human and are under enormous pressure from their superiors to process as many applications as possible in as short a time as possible. I read on here some time ago a post from an ex ECO that they have less than 10 minutes to look at an application and make a decision!

The reason for my comments is not to raise your ire; it is to emphasise to others, and yourself for any future applications, the need to cover all the bases; to think of what the ECO may want to see and provide it; to think of any possible question the ECO may have and provide an answer.

In other words, to learn from this experience so that future applications go smoothly and the requested visa is issued with the minimum of delay.

Whether you take that on board or not is your choice.

Yes Sir! 7by7 you are not a schoolteacher by any chance are you?

I will once again inform you of why they refused my wife the visa on our second attempt.

1. No land/ assetts etc so no reason to return......... i made my thai account joint to counter this and reapplied....still refused for the same reason...... i did no more for the appeal other than state that the account was joint.

2.you have stated you live with your husband in a home purportedly owned by him but supplied no evidence of this........ i then got proof of ownership from my accountant and company papers.......... never have i come across anyone required to do this and thats what peed me off.

3. your husband has not shown evidence that he has a longterm visa to remain in thailand................ if they had read my letter it was clearly posted that i spend my time 50/50 between uk and Thailand and my passport clearly had 1 year multiple entry visas issued from Hull going back years........they were issued with copies of these.

I believe that the ECO did not give my application the attention needed and he/she made numerous errors in their decision. I was infact looking forward to the tribunal hearing because i feel that it would have shown incompetency on the ECOs behalf. I have openly admitted that i missed a few things in our first application, but it seems the ECO was intent on failing the second whatever i did.

7by7, please understand that the ECOs are playing god with peoples lives and a little empathy from them would go a long way. Im dam_n sure that every application ever submitted could be failed for one silly reason if need be, and the same ECO granted my mates girlfriend a visa a few weeks before he failed my wife. I completed both applications and i can honestly say that two of the reasons my wife was failed applied to my mates girlfriend but they were not even mentioned. A level playing field is all i ever wanted, but i feel that wife visitor visas get treated differently to girlfriends visitor visas and this is just plain wrong!

[7by7]

In other words, to learn from this experience so that future applications go smoothly and the requested visa is issued with the minimum of delay.

Whether you take that on board or not is your choice.

It seems that you have made your choice.

[bifftastic]

seanee, glad to hear it's all been sorted out. You must be happy at the prospect of being with your wife again.

[stament]

OK guys i have some news..............success!!!

My wife had a call from the embassy today just 3 days before our appeal hearing in the UK. The person who called said that following a review it had been decided to issue her visa! Im so Happy. The caller said that she would receive a letter in a few days and she should take the letter and her passport to Bangkok and they would issue the visa. Has anyone else done this? what are the procedures and times? etc etc

Although we are both ecstatic I still feel that we were made to jump through hoops to get a visa when a simple phone call at the time could and would have sorted everything out in days.

That said im looking forward to getting back to Thailand next week and then bringing my wife back to the Uk to meet my parents and extended family.

The four or so months of hel_l are now behind us and we are both looking to the future.

Well done you must be extremely relieved

[seaneee]

In other words, to learn from this experience so that future applications go smoothly and the requested visa is issued with the minimum of delay.

Whether you take that on board or not is your choice.

It seems that you have made your choice.

Yes i have and im sorry i dont concur with your brown nosing of the ECO's.

Edited July 5, 2010 by seaneee

[seaneee]

OK guys i have some news..............success!!!

My wife had a call from the embassy today just 3 days before our appeal hearing in the UK. The person who called said that following a review it had been decided to issue her visa! Im so Happy. The caller said that she would receive a letter in a few days and she should take the letter and her passport to Bangkok and they would issue the visa. Has anyone else done this? what are the procedures and times? etc etc

Although we are both ecstatic I still feel that we were made to jump through hoops to get a visa when a simple phone call at the time could and would have sorted everything out in days.

That said im looking forward to getting back to Thailand next week and then bringing my wife back to the Uk to meet my parents and extended family.

The four or so months of hel_l are now behind us and we are both looking to the future.

Well done you must be extremely relieved

I am. thanks for the support.

[seaneee]

seanee, glad to hear it's all been sorted out. You must be happy at the prospect of being with your wife again.

I just cant wait for her to come to Wales and meet my family.

Edited July 5, 2010 by seaneee

[theoldgit]

Yes i have and im sorry i dont concur with your brown nosing of the ECO's.

A very good result for you both, then you go and spoil it with a stupid remark like this, compounding it with the use of a large font.

Nobody, especially 7by7, is suggesting you "brown nose ECO's", whatever you mean by that, they can only make decisions on the information supplied, so I agree that you and many others will learn from your experience.

Anyway, well done and I wish you both all the best for the future.

[7by7]

I agree that you and many others will learn from your experience.

One can only hope so, OG.

But, to paraphrase George Santayana:-

Those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

[seaneee]

<BR>

<BR>I agree that you and many others will learn from your experience.

<BR>One can only hope so, OG.<BR><BR>But, to paraphrase George Santayana<I>:-<BR><BR>Those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.<BR><BR></I><BR>

<BR>And i will leave you with one of my mums " If you aint got nothing nice to say..............."<BR>7by7 please close this thread.<BR><BR><BR>

[phomthai]

I've just read thru' this thread & 7by7 has provided you with some excellent advice but seems to me you just read the negatives rather than take on board the positives!

So I wouldn't be surprised if in 6 months you're back here asking advice having made the same mistakes again, blaming everyone but yourself UNLESS you accept the constructive criticism above & learn from your mistakes!

Everybody who has stated that the ECO do NOT know you, your wife or friends & family etc are quite right...THEY DON'T KNOW YOU!

The ECO rely on the evidence you supply & it's far better to go the complete overkill route....8 to 10 photos? Give them those AND a CD with all 100+ photos on it! They may not look at all the pics BUT!!!! They are human & they get it wrong...but how many applications pass their desk every day? Make it easier for them!

Best advice I can give you is right from the start do NOT give them an excuse to say NO!

Prevention is better than a cure! You've got a cure for your wife's visa but you could have prevented the aggro had you supplied everything in a clear & logical order from the start, seems to me you didn't learn the mistakes & just charged right in & made similar mistakes again!

My girlfriend's tourist visa application had over 90 pages of supporting documents with a covering checklist...they had absolutley no room for excuses!

Playing devil's advocate here I would always be suspicious when a husband applies for tourist visa instead of settlement visa especially if he's claiming to be a successful businessman...why wouldn't he want his wife to be with him ALL THE TIME? But hey I'm a cynic!

Consider the following:

"Filling out any application forms is a bit like doing an exam, the examiner doesn't know you, you're just a number & he has 5 minutes to mark a paper you've spent 3 years studying for & 3 hours writing sitting in a hot, airless cramped little classroom whilst the guy next to you has a cold & sneezes every 5 minutes & he's really annoying and why do you always get the desk that has the wobbly leg, and you really wish you hadn't lost sexy Sarah's mobile number when you were pi$$ed on Saturday night, and now you're waffling cos you can't remember how to calculate the circumference of a bloody circle & why should you cos you think you'll never use that stupid formula in the real world when you're emptying dustbins and why are you emptying dustbins? cos you didn't listen to the lecturer when he said "List rather than wordy paragraphs", and yes you know the stupid examiner will mark this paper in less than 5 minutes, so why don't you make it easy for him to digest, highlight key points, no waffle, lists are easier to speed read than wordy paragraphs, it's a lot about exam technique, next paper please.... aaarrrggghhh"

Let me put it another way...

Application forms are:

· a bit like doing an exam

· the examiner doesn't know you

· you're just a number

· he has 5 minutes to mark a paper

· result of 3 years study

· 3 hours writing

· marked in 5 minutes

· make it easy for him to digest

· stick to the FACTS

· avoid waffle

· highlight key points

· lists are easier

· avoid wordy paragraphs

· Exam technique

· Next paper please!

Which one is easier to read?

That's why the girlfriend's application had a checklist showing EVERYTHING that we were supplying. Her application was a ticking exercise and all the right boxes got ticked. Yes it took time to compile but no need for second application or appeals!

Sorry but welcome to the real, chaotic, time is money, pressure pressure, "I want that done yesterday" world....take of the RTGs and learn seaneee

And I'll save you the trouble YES I am criticising you....but constructively!

Finally I'm really pleased your wife got her visa, hope she has a great time in what is still a great country!