Thai Red Shirts Declare 'Class War'

[ballpoint]

You should be careful using absolutes like, "the leaders of the Red Shirts are all Hi So" in your arguments.

Precisely. The red leaders have no class at all. And one of the annoying things about this country is the large number of people who think you can buy it.

What remains and is true and so, is that the Red Shirts have a legitimate complaint and right to seek redress from the current prime minister and party in power. The current government and prime minister owe their power to the military who usurped power from a democratically elected government in a coup.

And Thaksin, who by the way was not the elected PM at the time of the coup, but a self appointed caretaker who had outlasted his mandate, can trace his rise in power back to the 1991 coup. Where are the calls to reinstate the Chatichai Choonhaven government, truly the last PM to have been deposed while still holding a mandate from the people? Of course, that would be ridiculous, as are the calls to reinstate Thaksin, who was not only kicked out while clinging onto power, but who was also found to have stolen 150 Billion baht from the Thai people. He's a crook. He was thrown out of office. Get over it.

Unlike the current government the deposed government owed their power to the people. You may not like or approve of it but a majority of "those poor people" voted TRT.

No, the TRT just happened to buy out the politicians, and the parties in some cases, that the rural poor always vote for. When it was alledged that the democrats did the same in 2008, the people who are here trying to force the legitimacy of Thaksin down our throats, (and I'm not even going to go into the fact that the Thai courts found that he also cheated his way to the post of PM), are the same ones who are whining about that. They are also the same people who rant on about politicians changing party mid term, when they conveniently forget that Thaksin did the very same thing back in 1996. Double standards? Of course it is. "No man is above the law" - unless he is a vote buying, MP bribing, cheating, thieving, lying, accessory to murder, tinpot tyrant.

[ballpoint]

Secondly, finances is not an issue, if Northern people adhere to the Class war concept. More, I think some neighbouring countries may support the cause

Have you read your history? You may have to leave Thailand to do so, because much of it is suppressed, but try finding out just what happened here last time a "class struggle" in one country threatened to spill over to its neighbours.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Probably , hopefully, for the red shirts , a good leader for the future will emerge that gives a voice to the red shirts . Cohn Bendit did virtually disapear from the political scene after May 68 , you will notice

Well am NOT a communist , I have seen enough of the damages they did in Eastern Europe , its a totally failed ideology , so neighbouring countries beeing China . Laos and Cambodia ? Bit worrying

concerning Cohn Bendit... Currently, he is the Co-president of Green Alliance in the European Parliament of which he is elected (and active - Conflict with Barroso...)

Secondly, I am not a communist either, but I do believe than urgently something has to be done before we assist to big troubles in Northern Thailand.

citation Wikipedia

Daniel Marc Cohn-Bendit (born 4 April 1945) is a German politician, active in France and Germany, and was a student leader during the unrest of May 1968 in France. He was also known during that time as Dany le Rouge (French for "Danny the Red", because of both his politics and the color of his hair). He is currently co-president of the group European Greens–European Free Alliance in the European Parliament, becoming "Dany le Vert" (French for "Danny the Green", because of his new fight for ecology)

[moresomekl]

Unlike the current government the deposed government owed their power to the people. You may not like or approve of it but a majority of "those poor people" voted TRT.

No, the TRT just happened to buy out the politicians, and the parties in some cases, that the rural poor always vote for. When it was alledged that the democrats did the same in 2008, the people who are here trying to force the legitimacy of Thaksin down our throats, (and I'm not even going to go into the fact that the Thai courts found that he also cheated his way to the post of PM), are the same ones who are whining about that. They are also the same people who rant on about politicians changing party mid term, when they conveniently forget that Thaksin did the very same thing back in 1996. Double standards? Of course it is. "No man is above the law" - unless he is a vote buying, MP bribing, cheating, thieving, lying, accessory to murder, tinpot tyrant.

*************************

Here we go again . Its not important what you ,me , or other in this forum believe anyway .What is important is what the red shirts believe , as they are thai national , they vote in thai elections , we dont , and they dont give a rat ass about what Thaksin did for himself (though that may begin to change) , what they see is what Thaksin did for them . Yes agree with you on Thaksin wrong doing albeit dont agree that the manner of his removal was legal by any standards.

The best Abhisit could do now is to bring some of the red shirts leaders in his coalition . Difficult but possible . Forget about Thaksin for a moment , he will never be PM again

[landofthefree]

On an earlier thread when mentioning PM Abhisit Vejjajiva's degrees earned in England, I mentioned that he received a doctorate law degree or maybe I just said a law degree from Eton College, UK. I don't know who posted the following reply as I was unable to reply to it. I quote:

"He received his law degree from Eton!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a boys school they finish when they are 18, they don't do degrees because they are not a University. Christ on a bike! You must be an American.

Yes, I am an American living in Thailand. The poster's words seem to be telling me that I am ignorant because I am an American. This seems to be a majority belief among the vast majority of TV posters from the UK. It may surprise the poster that only a handful of people in the world - outside of the so-called "UK" - cannot name more than one university in England much less a prep school.

But, I am smart enough to type in Abhisit Vejjajiva in google or yahoo and read his biography. All that I have read mention that he received a law degree or an honorary law degree from Ramkhamhaeng Univ. schools, Eton College, UK. So I assumed that Eton was a college or university. It seemed to read that way to me. I often wonder why so many people on TV engage in personal attacks on others who are simply voicing their opinions. Calling other posters ignorant & worse for posting their comments is rude to say the least. And, I guess attacking the U.S.A. (or what many call America) and all of its citizens really gets old. It is a country of more than 300 million people and certainly they do not ALL think alike. I left because of several political reasons but I still think that the average American is and always will be first in line to help the people of any country in the world if it and its people experience a castastrophe. Always the U.S. will be the country that gives the most money. So hating all the people b/c of the sorry lot that are elected Pres. is just plain wrong.

Will always help a country in need..............

As long as there is Oil in it .....didn't do much to help Cambodians with Pol Pot but I guess you had just lost the Vietnam war at that time so couldnt be blamed for that ....Oh and forgot to mention single handedly won world war 1 world war 2 and every war thereafter.

Enough American bating! Its just I wish you American wouldnt take yourselves so seriously all the time, the Eton reference was a joke like we joke about Americans assuming us Brits know everyone in the UK. Oh, and another thing why do you always have to speak so loudly!!!!!

And before you say it I have lived in America and been back there numerous times so despite everything I've said you know I don't think that you Yanks are all that bad!!!

[moo9]

From the Nation

"Natthawut yesterday said that some 72 litres of blood drawn from red-shirt protesters was still unused after the rest was spilled at locations as part of their protest. He said beginning today, the blood would be used by painters among the red shirts to create works of art about struggle between the classes. "

To create works of art......

Those maniacs are never running out of sick ideas.

Struggle between the classes?! <deleted>, this country offers more chances and opportunities compared with all the neighboring countries. Yes, it could be better, but that's not the individual fault of Abhisit! Thaksin was long enough in power in Bangkok and as PM. What did he improve? Nothing or at least not much, comparing the 30 Baht scheme with his tax evasion!

Manipulating the masses in this country is quite easy and therefore dangerous. I think the neighbors or other SEA countries are observing the troubles with great joy (Vietnam, Malaysia etc.).

The further the Red's will go, the deeper the country will fall. Is that so difficult to understand?

[dude007]

It is a great shame that the clearly constructive aspiration to representation by the so called 'rural poor'...not that poor!!..is hijacked by the demagogue and mobile phone and silk tycoon Thaksin..the Chinese Slim of Thailand.

It is indeed unfortunate that a personality cult rather than a legitimate political party with clear policies seems to be what they have. They may have it but everyone focuses on Thaksin, this last rally was, I believe, a missed opportunity to swing public attention away from him and on to the issues.

In all political arenas the leaders of various parties often fall foul of either their own mis-guided actions (or criminality!) or are discredited by the opposition. What happens then is, they step down amid much publicity, disappear into the background whilst others repeatedly re-affirm the party line and the party re-groups and carries on.

The best analysis so far on this forum: the real core of the problem. Taksin is standing in his own way for a come back and the signs of weakening support are evident and clearly visible. This "personality cult" never can survive, and for sure not with a duplicate from Hitler who starts insulting his opponents in telephone call-ins in a very despicable way. What indignity for Thailand and its red shirts (who are all from the same brand): the middle-finger-up class...

[moresomekl]

concerning Cohn Bendit... Currently, he is the Co-president of Green Alliance in the European Parliament of which he is elected (and active - Conflict with Barroso...)

Secondly, I am not a communist either, but I do believe than urgently something has to be done before we assist to big troubles in Northern Thailand.

citation Wikipedia

Daniel Marc Cohn-Bendit (born 4 April 1945) is a German politician, active in France and Germany, and was a student leader during the unrest of May 1968 in France. He was also known during that time as Dany le Rouge (French for "Danny the Red", because of both his politics and the color of his hair). He is currently co-president of the group European Greens–European Free Alliance in the European Parliament, becoming "Dany le Vert" (French for "Danny the Green", because of his new fight for ecology)

Yes I know , am french , what i meant is that Cohn Bendit disapeared from FRENCH politics after May 68

[moresomekl]

I truly begin to believe that some ppl here associate Thaksin with all the red shirts (whose according to them sole political agenda is to bring him back and get him as PM) for political motives .

If that fails they will then associate all the red shirts with communists .

The more things change , the more they remain the same

Edited March 19, 2010 by moresomekl

[mazeltov]

it isn't a class war in the Marxist-Leninist sense. capitalists are not the bad people here.

capitalism isn't bad at all, don't have to mean exploitation but choice and chance. and that you actually have to work, what the reds already do, the farmers like the new money businessmen, unlike some other lame pencil pusher in a oversize bureaucracy state and officialdom, the home of the old money, with a feudal hierarchy, where you get your job with connections and by your family name, to leech the money of without providing much efficiency or be actually needed or useful.

So, you think there is a single red/yellow/pink/blue/green or gold shirt that doesn't believe in the ethical rightness of patronage, of giving and receiving influence through one's friends, one's family and one's connections?

Then you don't know anything about Thailand or its culture.

I'd venture with 99% confidence that not a single legitimate protester who came to Bangkok for "the million man march" has any idea what "class war" means and nor would they vote for it if they did. I'm not slinging the usual yellow shirt 'uneducated peasant' slur here, I'm saying that the concept has neither been explained by those who are bandying it around nor is it what people anywhere in Thailand are actually interested in, regardless of their education, occupation or geographical location.

The marxist tripe due to Giles Ungpakporn (himself the son of a former Bangkok governor, hardly a champion of Isaan) is of no relevance to anyone in the modern world. Just a university academic who read Marx like an infatuated teenager but didn't grow out of it or realize the rest of the world has done that, been there, and said 'no thanks'.

keywords of my post are: capitalism and choice

i am not talking about Giles Ungpakorn, i am not thinking that the spectre of his "school" is haunting Thailand.

that word "class war" is maybe too strong and misleading. i don't think of it as an proletarian revolution or see communist guerrilla warriors roam through the city armed with a ThK47

i am not sure if the how difficult it will be to get The Trotskyist Exile Express, Pol PotPouri Magazine or The Great Maoist Times at the newspaper stands in Bangkok or if there is a samisdat reader circle for such publications.

but i will be be not able to get a copy of the The Economist. The Economist has decided not to distribute its current issue in Thailand.

[mazeltov]

Abhisit is not one of the 'elite' in education, family background, wealth or any other construct you wish to put out there - the elite bit is in acheivement, drive and building his network.

Any PM requires that. That's how they become PM.

Abhisit is a Daddy's Boy and a smug. and doesn't have much drive either. he stays on top and smiles but don't do much of the decision. the teachers pet does what he have been told to do.

admit he would win a mother-in-law's delight competition, but fail in a 'your cool uncle' contest.

and look at Abhisits "uncles", the characters where where he creeps around. that is his network.

Korn, who is a Daddy's boy too did had at least some kind of real job in the private business sector, meanwhile Abhisit never did anything else then hang around at floors and offices in the democrats headquarters. and it is no coincidence that have been students in oxford together and are now fellows again. delegate by their families. daddies and uncles who building up their dynasties.

is Abhisit a real doer, a rainmaker, someone who spreads verve, a captain, a authority? no, he has as much energy as a sleeping pill.

0.policies?

1.education - 2.employment - 3. confidence - 4. social welfare - 5. strengthen democracy -6. unity 7. hahaha 8. sport

0. expand the state apparatus.

1. give people a career opportunity and hold training courses in clerical activity. (rubber stamp, ink-pad, paper, 'yes boss', form G-D/274.72, paper shuffle). the Government has set a target for the vocational training program to cover 500,000 people,

2. make them to employees of the state. create more positions in whatever civil service offices. for example create new jobs in the schools administration (educations ministry budget have to be spend wise) "a project targets recent graduates for employment in administrative positions at schools and other education institutions. The MOE is to hire 14,532 administration staff between 2009 and 2012 at a cost of around 1.56 billion in salaries per year."

3. gives them some uniform for office work, so that they feel important.

4. give them some social insurance and a small pension.

5. at work there is nothing to do than pencil pushing, they might start getting ideas, better prevent that. so entertain them with bi-weekly meeting and montly assemblies where you invite some Generals from ISOC who provide instructions how important the state and the government for democracy is and what it means to be a loyal and brave citizen.

6. let them take part in fun events like 'white shirt rally of adjusted commoners' or sing a song at 6 o' clock.

7. one time cash hand out to low income tax payers (your civil servants), a signed letter for Grandma Nui, Mark M16 paper bullets, intelligence reports about Dr. Mabuses whereabouts, Kasit, computer crime act, recent polls show that..., PM is confident ... , DPM denies ..., Don't panic.

8. Korn proposes bid for 2018 FIFA World Cup

Daddys boys?? And you are such a manly man eh?

Twaddle.

I am a mother-in-law.

anyway, the post wasn't about gender profiling, but for the lulz.

You are an internet hero!

An internet hero is something to be.

[moresomekl]

Secondly, finances is not an issue, if Northern people adhere to the Class war concept. More, I think some neighbouring countries may support the cause

Have you read your history? You may have to leave Thailand to do so, because much of it is suppressed, but try finding out just what happened here last time a "class struggle" in one country threatened to spill over to its neighbours.

You mean Vietnam ? Yes right ...

[thaiedward]

Quote from above:

Though the Red Shirts have succeeded in calling attention to their agenda, the major societal forces of Thailand appear stacked against them," said Paul Chambers, a Thailand specialist at Heidelberg University in Germany.

"This includes the monarchy, soldiers in top positions, courts, the ruling coalition, and most business groups."

A good read is Siam Mapped by Thongchai Winichakul

Explores the ways in which..never mind the myth that Thailand has never been colonised..Thailand/Siam has colonised large areas of what is now its territory. One result is that in many areas Thai is a minority language. The North Eastern/Issan people speak Lao, in the South East they speak Khmer and in the North Kammuang..there are a myriad of tribal dialects..about 80!! ..see Studies in Tai Linguistics in Honor of William Gedney..and then there is the issue of Teochew, the Chinese, spoken by great numbers of people in the Central/Southern area and Bangkok. Thailand is a highly fragmented country. At its peripheries: on the borders with Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and Malaysia, where refugees, insurgents, disenfranchised and denationalised hill tribe ethnic groups survive, Thailand barely maintains its sovereignty. A country massively centred on one city Bangkok and a tacky tourist industry is held together, just, by money, plentiful food, strong families, the hegemony and 'benevolent' autarchy of the monarchy and the unpleasant nationalism/racism that has been diligently constructed to create the notion of 'being Thai'.

It is a great shame that the clearly constructive aspiration to representation by the so called 'rural poor'...not that poor!!..is hijacked by the demagogue and mobile phone and silk tycoon Thaksin..the Chinese Slim of Thailand.

Class war? Bravo what a brilliant and original idea!

Especially seeing how well it has not worked everywhere else.

Hey, Giles will be happy as a bearded clam in the Red Sea!

Elites?

They list Political and Aristocratic elite, as if it is ONE Elite.. far from it.

And ignore;

The business elite striving to be the two above, by walking on the workers hands.

social climbing elite hoping to have the status of the top two,by looking down on others big time.

Sports and Pop star elites and all the many different people who have excelled,

or came from families that excelled over time.

All successful people are elites in some way, as well as the middle classes,

showing the beginnings of social status and creature comforts improvement.

All at different stages in the Kow Tow society melded with the new found capitalist society,

and freedoms unheard of even 50 years ago. 'A people' need to grow into such

a new cultural miasma, and that takes time and trial by error change.

Khun Thongchai has an excellent article, not dissimilar to many of my posts about

the artificial nature of Thailand as an entity trying to create a Thai Culture and Identity,

from many different ones at a cultural cross roads. And some of the problem this causes in Thailand.

Class war, 67 million class wars daily, and not letting up, it is ingrained in the last dozen generations,

and only the advent of western media access for all is altering that perception in an way.

Not to say that is BETTER, but it is an viewable alternative and the MTV Tweeting generation

will have considerably different thought patterns than their parents and parents parents.

Once again a good post, A. All at once philosophical, objective and non-accusatory...with an eye to help as you can.

I feel compelled to add that in the USA, television, computers and any gadget that invites a child to exist outside him/herself has almost supplanted parenthood, itself. Until about a century (or so) ago, children were producers but they're rapidly becoming consumers.

I'd love to see a sincere effort to light the lamps in the darkest places not only in Thailand, but everywhere. Children need to learn how to think through proper experience rather than through some detached diversion.

Knowledge is a treasure that no one can steal...e.g, the English word for 'school' finds its root in classical Greek transliterated as 'skolia' which meant 'leisure-time' and, back in those times, children didn't attend school unless their families were sufficiently well-off. Is there no end in sight for feudalism?

I'm partly a dreamer. How about government-sponsored micro-facilities (thin-film solar powered) dedicated to educational/community activities while excluding more frivolous interaction with the likes of gaming, etc?

I'm also trying to exercise my notions about kindness such as: what we do for the very least among us we do as well for the very best within us.

Thanks to all for bearing with me.

[ballpoint]

Have you read your history? You may have to leave Thailand to do so, because much of it is suppressed, but try finding out just what happened here last time a "class struggle" in one country threatened to spill over to its neighbours.

You mean Vietnam ? Yes right ...

No, I said "what happened here...", ie/ Thailand, not what happened in Vietnam. If you really want to understand the current power structure in Thailand then it's essential to know.

[moresomekl]

Have you read your history? You may have to leave Thailand to do so, because much of it is suppressed, but try finding out just what happened here last time a "class struggle" in one country threatened to spill over to its neighbours.

You mean Vietnam ? Yes right ...

No, I said "what happened here...", ie/ Thailand, not what happened in Vietnam. If you really want to understand the current power structure in Thailand then it's essential to know.

Allright

[Jerrytheyoung]

quote name='ballpoint' post='3428902' date='2010-03-19 12:51:09']Have you read your history? You may have to leave Thailand to do so, because much of it is suppressed, but try finding out just what happened here last time a "class struggle" in one country threatened to spill over to its neighbours.

You mean Vietnam ? Yes right ...

No, I said "what happened here...", ie/ Thailand, not what happened in Vietnam. If you really want to understand the current power structure in Thailand then it's essential to know.

Yes, I do know a lot of things and as you write a large part is suppressed, but I do not pretend to know everything. I do not have the whole picture,- because some parts are missing-, but I can understand what you mean. Today, still, we cannot post all ....and we have to refrain.

I open a little....

I do know that the negociation for ending the Thai Communist guerilla (in Issan) has been complex and difficult, but my Thai high level contact has always refused to give me any more details. I do understand that the file is not yet fully closed and is involving the Highest level of Thailand.

I have a personal contact with one (ex) member of the Laos Royal Family (exiled in France)...

In Asia, nothing is simple, everything is complex:

Thailand (and particularly Issan) has not been always neutral with the neighbouring countries, has supported USA (secrete Nakhon phanom Air Base.....) but also has been a refuge for Siam liberation movements (famous cave nearby Sakhon Nakhon, Ho Chi Minh house in Nakhon Phanom, Nakhon Phanom important Vietnamese Community... ). I think a lot of stories going both ways in the Issan region, and yes a huge lid is still imposed on all that. Historians should be delighted....I do know also that, more than a Century ago, France has redesigned the boundaries of this region and negotiated some land exchanges in order to get "natural" boundaries. In fact part of Issan was Laos and exchanged against some land nearby the Loei region. I do know also that those boundaries discussions have not always been correctly settled (The Laotian Royal Family expressing a lot of reserves on those agreement), and particularly the Cambodian/Thai issues are directly a consequences of loose agreements which the French administration. An important activity of the Foreign Affairs is dedicated in solving those boundary issues.....

So, yes some neighbouring countries must have mixed feelings with Thailand.....

Today the situation is different from the past. Thai industrialisation is a new phenomenom. But,

the Thailand development is at 2 speeds;

-a fast growing industry mainly centered around Bangkok, and the Government is focusing on, with a maximum energy and budget

- a rural population which feels neglected and not involved in the Country development

The risk is not a struggle class as per communist standard but I believe more the risk is a "Jacquerie" (peasant upraising), because the farmers are owners of their land and basically capitalists.

We know that if it happens it will be severe, very bloody, and I really wish it will never happen.

[kurtgruen]

Hmmmm...shouldn't you have some "Class", before declaring a "Class War"?

[mazeltov]

"I am a Pfannkuchenand" or "I am a Pfannkuchen" just doesn't have the same geopolitical and rhetorical flair or pizzaz to it as did the Cold War and Berlin Wall assertion that "I am a Berliner." Pres Kennedy's assertive statement of political and military support brought an immediate and loud cheer from the huge mass of Berliners assembled to see the president and to hear his speech.

How many people in Italy knew the esoteric differences within the Germany and Berlin of the ...

you have obviously a communication problem.

it is a joke. if you wanna get anal over it because it involved your holy leader kermit k. kellogs you miss something about the free part in the free world, a part that seems Europeans get.

according to Claude Lévi-Strauss, The Raw and the Cooked, the Berliner Pfannkuchen can be described as a basic principle of a civilised culture. you should show more respect for issues related to the Berliner Pfannkuchen it isn't esoteric thingy but something that matters. you will fail if you are ignorant, same like you did it with Eton, instead of saying sorry you wrote it off with disrespect.

the Berliner Pfannkuchen is actually much more powerful than your Pres Kermit words, which brings you to nowhere, specially not when people not follow your star cult, but making jokes, you fail do understand. thanks loyality to kermit you make a fool of yourself. the Pfannkuchen and his culinary brother and sisters can help you to make good friends all over the world. it is a sweet treat, you can start a small talk about it, praise the local variant and tell them you have something similar at home, or whatever or kermit k's doughnut joke. sweet mouth, if you have some etiquette and table manners you will get well along. later you can talk business and turkey and show your photo album my kids, my car, my bbq, my house, my nobel laureate, my atomic-bomb, my kent state university, my Abu Ghuraib ... and so on. if you use it as conversation starter and introducing, everybody will think of you as a big mouth and show-off. you fail.

if i look at complaints about these america bashers, is it a whinging that is in most cases accompanied by rants that will never help you to make friends. most people wouldn't care much about it but us.americans seems to have the biggest issue of being unloved. the answer to why isn't blame others, but questioning yourself.

[yoshiwara]

Today the situation is different from the past. Thai industrialisation is a new phenomenom. But,

the Thailand development is at 2 speeds;

-a fast growing industry mainly centered around Bangkok, and the Government is focusing on, with a maximum energy and budget

- a rural population which feels neglected and not involved in the Country development

The risk is not a struggle class as per communist standard but I believe more the risk is a "Jacquerie" (peasant upraising), because the farmers are owners of their land and basically capitalists.

We know that if it happens it will be severe, very bloody, and I really wish it will never happen.

Historically. the peasantry as a class have as their primary interest not so much to be 'involved' (this is a nebulous concept anyway), but to own their own land. Land reform has been their focal interest.

This was one of the primary objectives of the 1917 Russian Revolution.

In 2010, this demand has nowhere been seen. Rather the peasants are a prop to the cause of Mr Thaksin

The process of industrialisation has marginalised large sections of the former peasantry.

Landless labourers or declasse elements forced into the towns may not like their position in society so visibly weakened but...

There is no going back on this.

If the urban working class (notice how Thaksin and the apologists completely ignore the title) had a better organised side ie decent trade unions, then they could at least try some organisation in the fields.

But they haven't.

The rural 'dispossessed' are therefore ripe for a chancer like Thaksin to use them as a backdrop to filling his own pockets.

The crook Thaksin spotted an opportunity to money launder and fix deals in favour of himself as a side product of the rapidly industrialising Thailand.

Class conflict is always with us.

Sometimes it is underground and sometimes it is on the surface.

Whatever the level of revolt, the peasantry/ex-peasantry cannot win.

Last weekend Thaksin led them to a decisive defeat.

Or rather he led himself to a decisive defeat.

The latest wheeze of looking for an alliance between the peasantry and the urban middle classes is a non-starter.

You will find that petty-bourgeois liberals (expat Thaksin apologists) in the main love to romanticise the peasantry (Viva Che!) and hate the working class.

Class tensions in Thailand will persist.

But that is the nature of capitalist society.

Live with it.

[Publicus]

"I am a Pfannkuchenand" or "I am a Pfannkuchen" just doesn't have the same geopolitical and rhetorical flair or pizzaz to it as did the Cold War and Berlin Wall assertion that "I am a Berliner." Pres Kennedy's assertive statement of political and military support brought an immediate and loud cheer from the huge mass of Berliners assembled to see the president and to hear his speech.

How many people in Italy knew the esoteric differences within the Germany and Berlin of the ...

you have obviously a communication problem.

it is a joke. if you wanna get anal over it because it involved your holy leader kermit k. kellogs you miss something about the free part in the free world, a part that seems Europeans get.

according to Claude Lévi-Strauss, The Raw and the Cooked, the Berliner Pfannkuchen can be described as a basic principle of a civilised culture. you should show more respect for issues related to the Berliner Pfannkuchen it isn't esoteric thingy but something that matters. you will fail if you are ignorant, same like you did it with Eton, instead of saying sorry you wrote it off with disrespect.

the Berliner Pfannkuchen is actually much more powerful than your Pres Kermit words, which brings you to nowhere, specially not when people not follow your star cult, but making jokes, you fail do understand. thanks loyality to kermit you make a fool of yourself. the Pfannkuchen and his culinary brother and sisters can help you to make good friends all over the world. it is a sweet treat, you can start a small talk about it, praise the local variant and tell them you have something similar at home, or whatever or kermit k's doughnut joke. sweet mouth, if you have some etiquette and table manners you will get well along. later you can talk business and turkey and show your photo album my kids, my car, my bbq, my house, my nobel laureate, my atomic-bomb, my kent state university, my Abu Ghuraib ... and so on. if you use it as conversation starter and introducing, everybody will think of you as a big mouth and show-off. you fail.

if i look at complaints about these america bashers, is it a whinging that is in most cases accompanied by rants that will never help you to make friends. most people wouldn't care much about it but us.americans seems to have the biggest issue of being unloved. the answer to why isn't blame others, but questioning yourself.

Thanks for the lecture and for the most oft-used cultural cliche' of them all, the one about humor.

The End.

STAMP

[animatic]

"I am a Pfannkuchenand" or "I am a Pfannkuchen" just doesn't have the same geopolitical and rhetorical flair or pizzaz to it as did the Cold War and Berlin Wall assertion that "I am a Berliner." Pres Kennedy's assertive statement of political and military support brought an immediate and loud cheer from the huge mass of Berliners assembled to see the president and to hear his speech.

How many people in Italy knew the esoteric differences within the Germany and Berlin of the ...

you have obviously a communication problem.

it is a joke. if you wanna get anal over it because it involved your holy leader kermit k. kellogs you miss something about the free part in the free world, a part that seems Europeans get.

according to Claude Lévi-Strauss, The Raw and the Cooked, the Berliner Pfannkuchen can be described as a basic principle of a civilised culture. you should show more respect for issues related to the Berliner Pfannkuchen it isn't esoteric thingy but something that matters. you will fail if you are ignorant, same like you did it with Eton, instead of saying sorry you wrote it off with disrespect.

the Berliner Pfannkuchen is actually much more powerful than your Pres Kermit words, which brings you to nowhere, specially not when people not follow your star cult, but making jokes, you fail do understand. thanks loyality to kermit you make a fool of yourself. the Pfannkuchen and his culinary brother and sisters can help you to make good friends all over the world. it is a sweet treat, you can start a small talk about it, praise the local variant and tell them you have something similar at home, or whatever or kermit k's doughnut joke. sweet mouth, if you have some etiquette and table manners you will get well along. later you can talk business and turkey and show your photo album my kids, my car, my bbq, my house, my nobel laureate, my atomic-bomb, my kent state university, my Abu Ghuraib ... and so on. if you use it as conversation starter and introducing, everybody will think of you as a big mouth and show-off. you fail.

if i look at complaints about these america bashers, is it a whinging that is in most cases accompanied by rants that will never help you to make friends. most people wouldn't care much about it but us.americans seems to have the biggest issue of being unloved. the answer to why isn't blame others, but questioning yourself.

Thanks for the lecture and for the most oft-used cultural cliche' of them all, the one about humor.

The End.

STAMP

There is a distinct difference between:

Getting anal on a subject by narrowing it down into component parts,

and

just talking out your ass endlessly....

Pub has something to say....

can't say the same of some particular others.

Such as the returning friendless, Philologist_Dysentery

Edited March 19, 2010 by animatic

[tharae]

On an earlier thread when mentioning PM Abhisit Vejjajiva's degrees earned in England, I mentioned that he received a doctorate law degree or maybe I just said a law degree from Eton College, UK. I don't know who posted the following reply as I was unable to reply to it. I quote:

"He received his law degree from Eton!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a boys school they finish when they are 18, they don't do degrees because they are not a University. Christ on a bike! You must be an American.

Yes, I am an American living in Thailand. The poster's words seem to be telling me that I am ignorant because I am an American. This seems to be a majority belief among the vast majority of TV posters from the UK. It may surprise the poster that only a handful of people in the world - outside of the so-called "UK" - cannot name more than one university in England much less a prep school.

But, I am smart enough to type in Abhisit Vejjajiva in google or yahoo and read his biography. All that I have read mention that he received a law degree or an honorary law degree from Ramkhamhaeng Univ. schools, Eton College, UK. So I assumed that Eton was a college or university. It seemed to read that way to me. I often wonder why so many people on TV engage in personal attacks on others who are simply voicing their opinions. Calling other posters ignorant & worse for posting their comments is rude to say the least. And, I guess attacking the U.S.A. (or what many call America) and all of its citizens really gets old. It is a country of more than 300 million people and certainly they do not ALL think alike. I left because of several political reasons but I still think that the average American is and always will be first in line to help the people of any country in the world if it and its people experience a castastrophe. Always the U.S. will be the country that gives the most money. So hating all the people b/c of the sorry lot that are elected Pres. is just plain wrong.

By the time I'd been in Thailand three years, I was aghast because of the cultural and civilizational deficits and deficiencies some 75% to 80% or so Western Europeans I met or worked with suffered relative to the society, culture and civilization of the United States. It's even worse among those 'Westerns' I met from the down under regions of the South West Pacific, this time to the tune of 85% to 90% of them. The ignorance, prejudices, biases towards the United States and its people was outdone only by their complete disconnect from life in the US. I simply was speechless and mortified by the willful and systematic contempt these people have towards the US.

It's really a frightening and pathetic deficit disorder of a serious cultural and civilizational magnitude over in those places. I of course got used to it and since simply dismiss their blissful world of the surreal and bizarre when it comes to the United States. We have more Nobel Prize winners in every category, usually by a huge difference, except for literature in which the US is 2 winners behind the leader France. We have the world's best and leading universities etc etc.

Yet the cultural deficits of the Western Europeans and of the Down Unders I've met are appalling. Worse, they are beyond repair or recovery. One Belgian idiotically said to me that Pres Kennedy's statement in German during his visit to Berlin, "I am a Berliner" was spoken in erroneous German.....this wild and malicious claim was made by the guy despite the German language statement having come from the West German Embassy in the US and from German language experts at the State Department and leading universities of the US. That's willful malevolence towards the United States, which must be dismissed immediately and out of hand as not credible or reasonable - as simply irrational and mean spirited.

Tsk tsk.

Those Western Europeans and Down Unders you refer to are the best friends the US has right now (and probably ever will). If you can't accept critcism from your friends, then who?

[Jonathanpattaya]

to win a class war first requires a working class hero.

John Lennon - Working Class Hero

As soon as your born they make you feel small,

By giving you no time instead of it all,

Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,

A working class hero is something to be,

A working class hero is something to be.

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,

They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,

Till you're so fuc_king crazy you can't follow their rules,

A working class hero is something to be,

A working class hero is something to be.

When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,

Then they expect you to pick a career,

When you can't really function you're so full of fear,

A working class hero is something to be,

A working class hero is something to be.

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,

And you think you're so clever and classless and free,

But you're still fuc_king peasents as far as I can see,

A working class hero is something to be,

A working class hero is something to be.

There's room at the top they are telling you still,

But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,

If you want to be like the folks on the hill,

A working class hero is something to be.

A working class hero is something to be.

If you want to be a hero well just follow me,

If you want to be a hero well just follow me.

A copy of Socialist Worker anyone?

[animatic]

He means that what he hears, doesn't reflect the reality we know exists back in the states.

There is something that isn't registering, like many people seem to think the Internet,

Television and Hollywood Personalities are 'Americans in general'. When at best they are

caricatures or archetypes writ large. Or that, for a glaring example, Bush was elected

and kept in office by a majority of Americans, and so we ALL think like that...

Just like Thaksin it was really a minority segment, that managed to get enough votes by hook or crook.

Those that have actually been there and traveled any amount there are not like this.

Though of they stayed regional they often adopt regional stereotypes attitudes vs other sections

He doesn't mean an inability to take criticizm from friendly allies, which Bush had in spades,

but that many of our allies citizens, clearly have misshapen images of what life in America is actually like.

[Asa]

It's getting way off the course, and might be intellectually deep to the root,

What would the old Trink say, "but I don't give a hoot"?

[Publicus]

Today the situation is different from the past. Thai industrialisation is a new phenomenom. But,

the Thailand development is at 2 speeds;

-a fast growing industry mainly centered around Bangkok, and the Government is focusing on, with a maximum energy and budget

- a rural population which feels neglected and not involved in the Country development

The risk is not a struggle class as per communist standard but I believe more the risk is a "Jacquerie" (peasant upraising), because the farmers are owners of their land and basically capitalists.

We know that if it happens it will be severe, very bloody, and I really wish it will never happen.

Historically. the peasantry as a class have as their primary interest not so much to be 'involved' (this is a nebulous concept anyway), but to own their own land. Land reform has been their focal interest.

This was one of the primary objectives of the 1917 Russian Revolution.

In 2010, this demand has nowhere been seen. Rather the peasants are a prop to the cause of Mr Thaksin

The process of industrialisation has marginalised large sections of the former peasantry.

Landless labourers or declasse elements forced into the towns may not like their position in society so visibly weakened but...

There is no going back on this.

If the urban working class (notice how Thaksin and the apologists completely ignore the title) had a better organised side ie decent trade unions, then they could at least try some organisation in the fields.

But they haven't.

The rural 'dispossessed' are therefore ripe for a chancer like Thaksin to use them as a backdrop to filling his own pockets.

The crook Thaksin spotted an opportunity to money launder and fix deals in favour of himself as a side product of the rapidly industrialising Thailand.

Class conflict is always with us.

Sometimes it is underground and sometimes it is on the surface.

Whatever the level of revolt, the peasantry/ex-peasantry cannot win.

Last weekend Thaksin led them to a decisive defeat.

Or rather he led himself to a decisive defeat.

The latest wheeze of looking for an alliance between the peasantry and the urban middle classes is a non-starter.

You will find that petty-bourgeois liberals (expat Thaksin apologists) in the main love to romanticise the peasantry (Viva Che!) and hate the working class.

Class tensions in Thailand will persist.

But that is the nature of capitalist society.

Live with it.

In France 1789 the monarchy got tossed by the peasants, which always had been its historical base, while in England the monarchy was tamed by the middle class, the bourgeoise, with sporadic violence but generally by evolutionary means. In the present Christian civilization the remnants of monarchy are constitutional ones supported and embraced by the middle class. Other monarchies are absolute (Barhain, Saudi Arabia etc) and often Muslim, or are multi-headed as in Malaysia and the UAE (also Muslim).

There isn't much recent history of a peasantry conducting a class war and even fewer instances of a peasantry successfully overthrowing the ancien regime. Even Mao tossed the bourgeoise and the industrialists out of power as the monarchy already had been chased. Much the same for Lenin; Castro tossed a petty civilian dictator tryant. There are other instances of success or failure - but mostly failure -so it's difficult or impossible to conceive of the Reds in Thailand chasing the bureaucracy, the corporate captains and the military, or to expect the middle class to stand idly by throughout.

This class warfare business is a matter of the past and in the contemporary world is a dead end.

[Jerrytheyoung]

In France 1789 the monarchy got tossed by the peasants, which always had been its historical base, while in England the monarchy was tamed by the middle class, the bourgeoise, with sporadic violence but generally by evolutionary means.

Just an historical correction:

French Revolution has started in Paris, by demonstrations from Paris suburb to Versailles palace where the French Monarchy was installed. It was the artisans managed by some middle Class leaders like Danton, Robespierre..... Later on, the French Revolution has been obliged to set up 5 Armies to tame the peasants who were supporting the aristocracy. The Military campaign against the peasants remains very famous because it has been very bloody in Vendee and Britanny.

In 1830, (what is called les 3 Glorieuses), again it is Paris which was leading the revolt. and in 1870, again a Paris's revolt against the Middle Class "Les Versaillais". Paris was under Prussian occupation and fully besieged, the "Commune" was communicating with the rest of the Country by pigeons, they tried to get the peasants moving... it has been unsuccessful and the Commune finished in a huge killings (around 10,000 "communards" shot on the "Mur des Federes").

So sorry but the French peasants are not at the origin of the French Revolution, on contrary they were opponents.

[srisatch]

Precis:

Abhisit is good but rich

Thaksin is bad but rich

Hi-Sos are bad and rich

Red Shirt Leaders are Hi-So..see above

Policemen and Soldiers and Politicians would like to be patrons: Good Bad and Rich

Non Thais are bad and poor

Kings and queens are good and VERY rich

Politicians are greedy bad and rich

Farangs love Thailand and are rich

Thais don't like farangs, well except when they enrich Issan, because they are rich

Rich Thais treat poor workers very badly

Like the comparisons with France..both as regards analysis..and what was DONE

Thanks to Jerrythe Young and Animatic

Oh tacky tourism..well I think its tacky because its mostly kitsch and down market, exploitative, ecologically disastrous and corrupt. Is Kamala Camelot?

[animatic]

Sans culots sans sense.

[landofthefree]

On an earlier thread when mentioning PM Abhisit Vejjajiva's degrees earned in England, I mentioned that he received a doctorate law degree or maybe I just said a law degree from Eton College, UK. I don't know who posted the following reply as I was unable to reply to it. I quote:

"He received his law degree from Eton!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a boys school they finish when they are 18, they don't do degrees because they are not a University. Christ on a bike! You must be an American.

Yes, I am an American living in Thailand. The poster's words seem to be telling me that I am ignorant because I am an American. This seems to be a majority belief among the vast majority of TV posters from the UK. It may surprise the poster that only a handful of people in the world - outside of the so-called "UK" - cannot name more than one university in England much less a prep school.

But, I am smart enough to type in Abhisit Vejjajiva in google or yahoo and read his biography. All that I have read mention that he received a law degree or an honorary law degree from Ramkhamhaeng Univ. schools, Eton College, UK. So I assumed that Eton was a college or university. It seemed to read that way to me. I often wonder why so many people on TV engage in personal attacks on others who are simply voicing their opinions. Calling other posters ignorant & worse for posting their comments is rude to say the least. And, I guess attacking the U.S.A. (or what many call America) and all of its citizens really gets old. It is a country of more than 300 million people and certainly they do not ALL think alike. I left because of several political reasons but I still think that the average American is and always will be first in line to help the people of any country in the world if it and its people experience a castastrophe. Always the U.S. will be the country that gives the most money. So hating all the people b/c of the sorry lot that are elected Pres. is just plain wrong.

By the time I'd been in Thailand three years, I was aghast because of the cultural and civilizational deficits and deficiencies some 75% to 80% or so Western Europeans I met or worked with suffered relative to the society, culture and civilization of the United States. It's even worse among those 'Westerns' I met from the down under regions of the South West Pacific, this time to the tune of 85% to 90% of them. The ignorance, prejudices, biases towards the United States and its people was outdone only by their complete disconnect from life in the US. I simply was speechless and mortified by the willful and systematic contempt these people have towards the US.

It's really a frightening and pathetic deficit disorder of a serious cultural and civilizational magnitude over in those places. I of course got used to it and since simply dismiss their blissful world of the surreal and bizarre when it comes to the United States. We have more Nobel Prize winners in every category, usually by a huge difference, except for literature in which the US is 2 winners behind the leader France. We have the world's best and leading universities etc etc.

Yet the cultural deficits of the Western Europeans and of the Down Unders I've met are appalling. Worse, they are beyond repair or recovery. One Belgian idiotically said to me that Pres Kennedy's statement in German during his visit to Berlin, "I am a Berliner" was spoken in erroneous German.....this wild and malicious claim was made by the guy despite the German language statement having come from the West German Embassy in the US and from German language experts at the State Department and leading universities of the US. That's willful malevolence towards the United States, which must be dismissed immediately and out of hand as not credible or reasonable - as simply irrational and mean spirited.

Tsk tsk.

Those Western Europeans and Down Unders you refer to are the best friends the US has right now (and probably ever will). If you can't accept critcism from your friends, then who?

Yankees go home!!!!! Only kidding, remember you are not in America now lighten up and enjoy the, land of plenty, Thailand.