In House Electrics, Where Do I Go From Here?

[Crossy]

Agree ^^^

I would install 4mm² for the cooktop to allow for a future larger unit, leave it on a 20A breaker for now.

I would also install wiring for aircons in the major rooms, even if you don't want / need it now.

To keep the cost down you could use a split service board with 1 or 2 RCDs and MCBs rather than RCBOs.

Get the biggest board you can find (within reason of course), blank off unused positions.

[eraymos]

Thanks David96 and Crossy! I do appreciate the help . Now I will have to do some more research on the web. What do you guys think the cost will be (ballpark figure)?

Thanks again!

[bankruatsteve]

FYI: I was in "Global House" (a large home supplies place - like Home Pro but bigger). A Square-D box with 10 slots was about 23K baht. The Safe-t-cut boxes were (I forget) more. I didn't check on other things but electric stuff is expensive these days. I won't argue with the above recommendation for circuits but I just don't see the need to go more than 5a for lighting circuits (and have more if ceiling fans). And, I don't see the need to go more than 10a for socket circuits other than maybe the kitchen. For water heaters, you can go up to about 2300 watts on a 10a single circuit. I say this b/c you can save a LOT of money on the wire for the amps you NEED vs overkill. So anyway... without going through any calculations my guess is that you will be spending at least 100K baht for what you are talking. And this is just to give you answer since nobody else did. Cheers.

[Crossy]

Whilst you can't fault what Steve says, "limit your circuits to what's actually required and you can save on cable", a couple of points:-

MCBs cost the same whatever the rating.

Consumer units cost the same.

Outlets cost the same.

Light fittings and switches cost the same.

You will only save on cable costs!

I don't have Thai costs to hand, but UK T&E cable costs :- 2.5mm 38 squid per 100m, 1.5mm 27 squid per 100m (plus VAT) so you'll save a whole 11 quid on every 100m you install if you limit the power circuits to 15A. Unless your home is huge I don't see you using more than 200m on power wiring.

Certainly if using modern low energy lighting 5A on 1mm cable would be sufficient for lighting circuits (just over 1000W of lights and fans), but I wouldn't skimp on your outlet circuits.

[bankruatsteve]

Hmm. I just ASSUMED copper costs were exponentially more expensive relative the diameter. At least they were in the states last time I checked. so, if it's not much diff, of course bigger is better. In any case, I still "ballpark" about 100K for what you say. (but probably have to be good shopper)

[Crossy]

Hmm. I just ASSUMED copper costs were exponentially more expensive relative the diameter. At least they were in the states last time I checked. so, if it's not much diff, of course bigger is better. In any case, I still "ballpark" about 100K for what you say. (but probably have to be good shopper)

Something that just occurred to my jaded brain is that if running your cable in conduit for its entire run you may save a bit by using singles rather than TPS.

[eraymos]

I don't think that the price of wires is somthing that will be that great of an expence. From the light out side the poolroom to the kitchen (where the CU is going) is about 20m and that the longest stretch. What Crossy said about the UK price is about the same as here in Norway and that is not a problem and I had thought about running single wires. I have looke at AEG consumer units and switches here in Norway and MCBs cost what would be between 200 and 500 baht depending if they are 6 or 10ka. What seems to be RCBOs (norwegian is not so easy to understand are about 2000-2500 baht. What I have seen on the web form two companies in Thailand MCBs are somewhere between 200 and 400 baht and RCBOs 2000-2500 baht. 63A main breakers er about 100-1500 baht. IF I understand the Thai website for a company called seven A er square D consumer units somewhere between 6 and 8.5K baht with 63A main breaker. Price depends on number of ways and if it's split bus or not.

What do you guys make out of this?

consumerunitprice.pdf

eMODUSPriceList.pdf

[Forkinhades]

Hmm. I just ASSUMED copper costs were exponentially more expensive relative the diameter. At least they were in the states last time I checked. so, if it's not much diff, of course bigger is better. In any case, I still "ballpark" about 100K for what you say. (but probably have to be good shopper)

Something that just occurred to my jaded brain is that if running your cable in conduit for its entire run you may save a bit by using singles rather than TPS.

yeah but twice the cost in labour

[eraymos]

Hmm. I just ASSUMED copper costs were exponentially more expensive relative the diameter. At least they were in the states last time I checked. so, if it's not much diff, of course bigger is better. In any case, I still "ballpark" about 100K for what you say. (but probably have to be good shopper)

Something that just occurred to my jaded brain is that if running your cable in conduit for its entire run you may save a bit by using singles rather than TPS.

yeah but twice the cost in labour

Pulling wire is not going to be a large labour costs. (that I'm sure of)

[Forkinhades]

as crossy said 'you MAY save a bit' if using singles, but you will need to install the conduit first ( which will take longer than just using twin and earth, or twin cable) then you have wire through the conduit, again taking longer. You have started this thread as you are trying to save money by doing the job yourself. Personally I think a dual RCD board with cables run in twin and earth is the safest and cheapest way of doing things.

[Crossy]

as crossy said 'you MAY save a bit' if using singles, but you will need to install the conduit first ( which will take longer than just using twin and earth, or twin cable) then you have wire through the conduit, again taking longer. You have started this thread as you are trying to save money by doing the job yourself. Personally I think a dual RCD board with cables run in twin and earth is the safest and cheapest way of doing things.

Agreed, T&E can be clipped on the surface avoiding the cost of conduit.

Much depends upon how visible you mind the wiring being.

EDIT. Looking at the photos in the OP conduit is already installed.

Interestingly, going by UK prices T&E actually works out cheaper than using singles.

[eraymos]

as crossy said 'you MAY save a bit' if using singles, but you will need to install the conduit first ( which will take longer than just using twin and earth, or twin cable) then you have wire through the conduit, again taking longer. You have started this thread as you are trying to save money by doing the job yourself. Personally I think a dual RCD board with cables run in twin and earth is the safest and cheapest way of doing things.

Everything needs to be run in conduit no matter what type of wire I choose. All the inwall conduit is in place (look at pics from post 1). It was put in the last time I was in Thailand. I still have 30-40m of conduit left over. I just need to put in conduit and junction boxes in the attic as I'm running wires. Do you know of any place where I could buy a dual RCD in Thailand? Has anybody (Crossy?) any comments to the pdf attachment I put in on consumerunits??????

[Forkinhades]

I just need to put in conduit and junction boxes in the attic as I'm running wires. Do you know of any place where I could buy a dual RCD in Thailand? Has anybody (Crossy?) any comments to the pdf attachment I put in on consumerunits??????

Why do you need to install junction boxes?? A 3 plate lighting system as used in the uk will not require any junction boxes, and will eliminate neutrals at the switches. Also found a wylex 10 way dual rcd board in the UK for £76 with all MCB's RCD's, at todays exchange rate thats 3800 baht!!

link

http://www.kewelectrical.co.uk/?gclid=CK6U...CFUNB6wodzirtvw

see if they ship to thailand!!

[eraymos]

I just need to put in conduit and junction boxes in the attic as I'm running wires. Do you know of any place where I could buy a dual RCD in Thailand? Has anybody (Crossy?) any comments to the pdf attachment I put in on consumerunits??????

Why do you need to install junction boxes?? A 3 plate lighting system as used in the uk will not require any junction boxes, and will eliminate neutrals at the switches. Also found a wylex 10 way dual rcd board in the UK for £76 with all MCB's RCD's, at todays exchange rate thats 3800 baht!!

link

http://www.kewelectrical.co.uk/?gclid=CK6U...CFUNB6wodzirtvw

see if they ship to thailand!!

Thanks, took a quick look at the website. They have Square D dual and other brands that are wll Known. Have to look more when the kids are asleep.

One question, if I go with a dual RCD would my mainbreaker still be 63A? And if so how would I split the board 32A/32A? Crossy?

[Crossy]

One question, if I go with a dual RCD would my mainbreaker still be 63A? And if so how would I split the board 32A/32A? Crossy?

Don't worry. Just split the circuits roughly equally between the sides. The idea is that you don't lose all your lighting / power if one RCD trips. So, for example, have your outdoor lighting on one side and your outdoor outlets on the other.

Your main breaker will still be 63A (assuming you have a 15/45 meter).

Be careful buying populated UK boards, they will likely come with a 100A incomer and 32A breakers (intended for rings). You need a 63A incomer and 20A breakers for radials.

I can't see if Kew will ship overseas, but TLC do http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/index.html

[Forkinhades]

Agreed.

For me personally I would stay away from square D

and try to get type 'B' MCBs you get much faster tripping times. Thailand only has type 'C' it seems. You only need type 'C' if you have circuits with motors on them, ie motorated circuits.

[eraymos]

Agreed.

For me personally I would stay away from square D

and try to get type 'B' MCBs you get much faster tripping times. Thailand only has type 'C' it seems. You only need type 'C' if you have circuits with motors on them, ie motorated circuits.

What do you have against square D? I think about them partly because it is easier to get parts in Thailand. I have seen on many UK websites that mainbreakers are rated at 100A but I did see a 63A Square D mainbreaker. Again I'm thinking Square D if I need to switch out any breakers to amps that I want/need. I had asked on this forum before for suggestion on what brand CUs are common in Thailand. I'm thinking about what is easiest to adapt to my needs and add on, when and if the time comes.

[Forkinhades]

I simply do not trust them. We are talking about a device that under fault conditions WILL save somebody's life!

Also I have worked for several authorities back in the UK, that insist that any square D type device has to be replaced with Crabtree type device. It got to a point where I/we did not even test the square D devices to see if they complied, we just got them changed.

Any type of device after a period of time, is going to fail at some point, and they need to be tested on a regular basis, with the right test equipment.

[david96]

Depending on type of construction one does not require cabling (B/W) in conduit

Cabling may be run surface in pvc ducting (eg Clipsal 900 series) or TPS+E in cavity block walls and in ceiling spaces above the ceiling and supported at regular intervals. The same applies to cavity walls timber or metal. (Australian Wiring Practice).

[david96]

Agreed.

For me personally I would stay away from square D

and try to get type 'B' MCBs you get much faster tripping times. Thailand only has type 'C' it seems. You only need type 'C' if you have circuits with motors on them, ie motorated circuits.

Mean tripping values MCBs (current causing automatic operation of the protective device).

Curve B MCB = 4 x rated current

Curve C MCB = 7.5 x rated current.

Curve D MCB = 12.5 x rated current

Curve C is standard curve for lighting and power circuits.

Source AS3000.

[david96]

I simply do not trust them. We are talking about a device that under fault conditions WILL save somebody's life!

Also I have worked for several authorities back in the UK, that insist that any square D type device has to be replaced with Crabtree type device. It got to a point where I/we did not even test the square D devices to see if they complied, we just got them changed.

Any type of device after a period of time, is going to fail at some point, and they need to be tested on a regular basis, with the right test equipment.

No legitimate electrical safety authority would make that statement that you have made. You may be confused with a recall of perhaps a batch manufactured between a certain period. Recall does not mean that they are all defective. Recall is carried out by the manufacturer.

[Forkinhades]

Agreed.

For me personally I would stay away from square D

and try to get type 'B' MCBs you get much faster tripping times. Thailand only has type 'C' it seems. You only need type 'C' if you have circuits with motors on them, ie motorated circuits.

Mean tripping values MCBs (current causing automatic operation of the protective device).

Curve B MCB = 4 x rated current

Curve C MCB = 7.5 x rated current.

Curve D MCB = 12.5 x rated current

Curve C is standard curve for lighting and power circuits.

Source AS3000.

those values are different to what they are in the UK, (and what are used in calcs with BS7671)

B = x5

C = x10

D = x20

for example a 10A MCB type 'C' has a maximum Zs value of 2.3 ohms. Therefore Z = V/A , 230/100 = 2.3 ohms (100 = 10 amps x Curve)

[Forkinhades]

No legitimate electrical safety authority would make that statement that you have made. You may be confused with a recall of perhaps a batch manufactured between a certain period. Recall does not mean that they are all defective. Recall is carried out by the manufacturer.

I was working for the local housing councils, and the square D devices were failing under test!

[Crossy]

Yup, Forky is correct ^^^

Back in 2006 there was a recall of Schneider RCBOs http://www.pdfqueen.com/html/aHR0cDovL3d3d...U4wNjM1LnBkZg==

Schneider Electric RCBO models (Merlin Gerin C60, C60X: ‘Square D’ KQE, QOE, SQOR) may not trip correctly on an earth leakage fault, and therefore not protect against electric shock or property damage. These should be identified and tested, and faulty devices replaced.

Currently Electrium brands (Volex, Crabtree and Wylex) are the subject of a recall :-

Combined with the fakes that are available (there should be rather more 'works' in there):-

We all have to be very careful where we get our stuff from.

[Forkinhades]

Thank you Crossy

The fakes is a big concern, did not even think about that!, and hey TiT!!!!!

[david96]

In 2006 in Australia Schneider (Merlin Gerin) issued a recall of a certain batch of C60H RCBOs.

In Australia this was a very small number of devices. This was the only recall at the time.

However fake products do exist. They come from China. We have good checks on imported electrical goods

imported into Australia, but some countries do not. One brand of MCB made in China was found the have some components missing, it gave itself away because in was unusually light in weight.

[Crossy]

However fake products do exist. They come from China. We have good checks on imported electrical goods

imported into Australia, but some countries do not. One brand of MCB made in China was found the have some components missing, it gave itself away because in was unusually light in weight.

We too in the UK like to think that we have good import controls, however fake MCBs have turned up in the UK even at retail outlets (not just eBay and boot sales).

Good point on the weight

When getting your stuff from anywhere other than a well respected retailer (actually even when getting from a respected retailer in Thailand), Caveat Emptor

[david96]

However fake products do exist. They come from China. We have good checks on imported electrical goods

imported into Australia, but some countries do not. One brand of MCB made in China was found the have some components missing, it gave itself away because in was unusually light in weight.

We too in the UK like to think that we have good import controls, however fake MCBs have turned up in the UK even at retail outlets (not just eBay and boot sales).

Good point on the weight

When getting your stuff from anywhere other than a well respected retailer (actually even when getting from a respected retailer in Thailand), Caveat Emptor

In this case it was picked up by the quality control by the importer, a very reputable Australian company. The MCB was found to have the arc chutes missing. They never reached the electrical wholesalers/ contractors.

[eraymos]

I have been in contact with a Bangkok company caled Piti Silom and have gotten an offer for a consumer unit. Below are my electrical needs, how the CU will be and what Piti Silom has suggested.

Kitchen - 4 x DGPO. 1 x SGPO (range hood plus exhaust fan). 1 x combination light/fan. 1 x oven. 1 x cooktop.

Bathroom - 2 x lights. 1 x exhaust fan. 1 x SGPO.

Laundry - 1 x hot water heater. 1 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Master bedroom - 4 x DGPO. 1 x combination light/fan.

Bathroom - 1 x light. 1 x exhaust fan. 1 x SGPO.

Bedroom -4 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Carport - 2 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Living room - 4 x DGPO. 6 x lights.

Hallway - 2 x SGPO. 1 x light.

Sunroom - 2 x DGPO. 1 x light. (fan)

Foyer - 1 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Bedroom -4 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Bedroom - 4 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Outdoor - 2 x DGPO. 6 x lights. 1x SGPO (pump)

Square D classic consumer unit 18ways w/o main

Main breaker 63A 1 MBGX RCD 2P 63A 10KA 30mA

Indoor lights 2x10A 2 QOvs MCB 1P 10A 10KA

Outdoor lights 1x10A 1 QOvs MCB 1P 10A 10KA

Indoor sockets 3x16A 3 QOvs MCB 1P 16A 10KA

Outdoor sockets 1x16A 1 QOvs MCB 1P 16A 10KA

Kitchen sockets 2x16A 2 QOvs MCB 1P 16A 10KA Change to 2x20A QOvs MCB 1P 20A 10KA

Cooktop/oven 2x20A 2 QOvs MCB 1P 20A 10KA

Bathroom sockets/washing machine 1x16A 1 QOvs MCB 1P 16A 10KA

Hot water heater 2500W 1x16A 1 QOvs MCB 1P 16A 10KA

1 extra 20A MCB 1 QOvs MCB 1P 20A 10KA

Surge arrester 1 SQD surge protector Imax (8/20uS) 15KA

*Total PRICE: 11,700 Baht *

Grounding rod not included in price.

Well, what do you think of my plans and of the cost? Do you have any comments or suggestions before I place the order?

[stgrhe]

I would change the Miniature Circuit Breakers (MCB) for all circuits except lighting circuits to Residual Current Breaker with Overload protection (RCBO), and also replace the surge arrester with an unit from Dehn (the specialist company in that field) that protects your application up to 40kA. 15kA is not much of a protection really in case of a lighting strike.