Advice On Custody

[BkkMikey]

Hello everyone,

My GF and I recently decided that in case something happens to us, the custody of our daughter should go to my sister in The Netherlands.

We are both in our mid thirties and healthy. We just like to have this done ...because well anything can happen right.

Our daughter (almost 3 years) was born in Thailand, she has a Thai and a Dutch nationality. We visit the Netherlands for a month every year. Her dutch is as good as her thai.

My question is how and where we can make this official..to prevent any misunderstanding with my daughter's thai relatives. I also want to ask if there is advice on a(standard) protocol (emergency numbers, contact persons, accomadation etc).

Any help is much appreciated!

[Maestro]

As this topic is about neither visas nor work permits I move it from the visa forum to the family forum.

--

Maestro

[MikeyIdea]

An agreement written outside / not recified by the Juvenile court can be challenged and may not stand so I think that it is a good idea to go there to make sure it's solid. Should not be difficult as both of you agree

First thing to confirm is if you have legitimized the child and have custody though. If you don't, then the children goes to one of the mothers relatives in case of her death. Did you ever legally marry the mother? Note that the fact that your name is on the birth certificate as father does not mean that you have custody, it means nothing legally actually

Registered the marriage?

[sarahsbloke]

First thing to confirm is if you have legitimized the child and have custody though. If you don't, then the children goes to one of the mothers relatives in case of her death. Did you ever legally marry the mother? Note that the fact that your name is on the birth certificate as father does not mean that you have custody, it means nothing legally actually

I don't believe that is quite correct

If your name is on the birth certificate as father, and on the birth certificate a second time as the person who registered the birth, then you are deemed to have recognised the child as yours and will automatically have 50 percent custody rights.

If however, the hospital or someone else registered the birth (as often happens as foreigners don't know the rules) you have no rights UNLESS you subsequently marry the mother at the Amphur office (when you again get full rights as father).

Edited March 24, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[MikeyIdea]

We thought that before but there was a post a while back where Isaanlawyers doesn't agree with that interpretation so that door seems to be closed.

Only way if you don't register the marriage, according to them, is to legitimize your child either by going to Juvenile court or at an amphur (depending on the age of the child and if all parties agree)

[BkkMikey]

If i understand it correctly ..you say that we should register this provision at the juvenile court? ...My name is on the birth certificate, but my gf and i are not married.

OUr objective is that should (god forbid) something happens to both of us, that it is very clear that the custody of our daughter goes to my sister and her husband in the Netherlands.

It is not very nice material to think about, but it would give us peace of mind if we know that this is registered, arranged and that we never have to worry about this anymore.

Because my sister and her husband live in the Netherlands there would be a time gap...between them arriving in Thailand and making arrangements. In the meantime our daughter would most likely stay with my gf her sister in Bangkok or her parents in Udon Thani. Allthough i trust them to do what is best for our daughter...I also made finacial arrangements for my daugher in case her mum and I ..... So i really want to do this officially.

If i were to do this in The Netherlands, i would simply draw up a letter and have it legalized in the presence of a notary. I suspect there is a little bit more to it here in Thailand?

Thanks for your reply!

[MikeyIdea]

You should read this http://www.thailawonline.com/en/custody-of...bangkok-pattaya

You are not married and you have not legitimized the child, you currently according to Thai law have neither obligations nor rights to your child, in short the mother has sole custody and you, according to law that is, don't even have visitation rights unless the mother allow you to The law is written that way to protect the child and it is of course exactly the same both for Thais and westerners. This is no problems now but it could be in the future so you should do something about it - before problems arise. Most people, including Thais, don't know about this and it happens that Thai fathers (as well as western fathers) find that the mother blocks access to his child/children when they break up.

True, you need to legitimize your child first, only way to do that if the child is not 6-7 years old or so (varies depending on amphur) is by taking the issue to juvenile court. Dont worry, it's just a formality if the mother and the child agree and you won't even see a judge. You and the mother can and should also agree that you both have shared custody, can be done at the same time and it's still a formality. 2 - 3 months waiting time in Bangkok and you should be able to find a cheap laywer who does it for less than 50,000 bath. That is also a rip-off actually since it is just a formality almost

"OUr objective is that should (god forbid) something happens to both of us, that it is very clear that the custody of our daughter goes to my sister and her husband in the Netherlands."

Before the child is legitimized, you can't sign for anything and it would be strange for the mother to give custody in case of her death to people in another country that aren't even a relative of the child...

After you have legitimized your child and have shared custody, then you need to get an agreement written and the agreement should be confirmed as valid and should be registered. I would expect that this has to be done at the juvenile court division as we are talking about custody of children. It doesn't mean that the issue goes to court, sorry about not being clear.

You will need a lawyer for both legitimization / shared custody and the custody in case of death agreement and he can tell you exactly how the agreement is confirmed and registered. The things you want to do are more or less formality so no need for an expensive lawyer

EDIT: The article I posted link to is Good - read it carefully, especially intresting are the supreme court decisions, custody seem to be something that must be taken to court

Edited March 24, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[BkkMikey]

Thanks a lot for the link. I never knew that i don't have the same rights as her mother. It is different under dutch law.

It seems best to get the same custody rights first before, since my signature has no value at this moment.Should this be done in the Amphur where she is registered or can this be done in Bangkok? We are visiting the Netherlands early July and our time frame is to have all papers done by then so that any necessary papers which need to be signed by my sister and her husband can be signed..

Second step would be to set up a will or something in which we as parents jointly appoint the legal custody to my sister in The Netherlands in case both parents (myself and my gf) meet our makers sort of say Does anyone knows the procedure for this?

You should read this

You are not married and you have not legitimized the child, you currently according to Thai law have neither obligations nor rights to your child, in short the mother has sole custody and you, according to law that is, don't even have visitation rights unless the mother allow you to The law is written that way to protect the child and it is of course exactly the same both for Thais and westerners. This is no problems now but it could be in the future so you should do something about it - before problems arise. Most people, including Thais, don't know about this and it happens that Thai fathers (as well as western fathers) find that the mother blocks access to his child/children when they break up.

True, you need to legitimize your child first, only way to do that if the child is not 6-7 years old or so (varies depending on amphur) is by taking the issue to juvenile court. Dont worry, it's just a formality if the mother and the child agree and you won't even see a judge. You and the mother can and should also agree that you both have shared custody, can be done at the same time and it's still a formality. 2 - 3 months waiting time in Bangkok and you should be able to find a cheap laywer who does it for less than 50,000 bath. That is also a rip-off actually since it is just a formality almost

"OUr objective is that should (god forbid) something happens to both of us, that it is very clear that the custody of our daughter goes to my sister and her husband in the Netherlands."

Before the child is legitimized, you can't sign for anything and it would be strange for the mother to give custody in case of her death to people in another country that aren't even a relative of the child...

After you have legitimized your child and have shared custody, then you need to get an agreement written and the agreement should be confirmed as valid and should be registered. I would expect that this has to be done at the juvenile court division as we are talking about custody of children. It doesn't mean that the issue goes to court, sorry about not being clear.

You will need a lawyer for both legitimization / shared custody and the custody in case of death agreement and he can tell you exactly how the agreement is confirmed and registered. The things you want to do are more or less formality so no need for an expensive lawyer

EDIT: The article I posted link to is Good - read it carefully, especially intresting are the supreme court decisions, custody seem to be something that must be taken to court

[BkkMikey]

My apologies..I did not read your reply carefully... It is clear which steps to take. Legitimizing my child first. After that drawing up a in case of death arrangement..

Only thing to do now...is find a lawyer who can help us with this all for a reasonable fee

Thanks again for your help !!

[MikeyIdea]

"Thanks a lot for the link. I never knew that i don't have the same rights as her mother. It is different under dutch law."

Don't automatically blame the law it is trying to protect the child by giving all powers to the parent who is most likely the one most attached to the child. The parents do have the simple and very cheap choice of going down to the amphur and register the marriage to change things. I think that the law has its place in Thailand, where some fathers are not that good...

It should be done at the amphur where the child is currently registered as living (where he has his tabien baan) but your child is only 3 years old so I doubt it can be done at the amphur yet , normally they require the child to be 6-7 years old. Have the mother call the amphur and ask, also clearly explain that the child, mother and father all agree. I did it in half a day at the amphur in Loei for a hundred bath when my daughter was less than 3 years old but that is very unusual. Bangkok, forget it, only option is juvenile court or wait until the child is 6-7. Have the mother call around to lawyers, legitimization and shared custody 50/50 is a formality and it should be possible to find someone who doesn't charge rediculous amounts. The lawyer doesn't even have to speak English really

I don't think your timeline is doable. It's 2 months waiting time before you get a "court time" (pre-court sort of and it doesn't go further than that if all parties agree), then the judge got to sign and then there's a 30 day period after that before it takes effect if I remember right. Difficult to get that done before July.

When you do get a simple 50/50 custody agreement written up by a lawyer (in Thai of course), could you copy it and PM me (names blanked out)? I'd like to have a simple templete to give when I advice here...

Edit: Don't know the procedure for the custody in case of death agreement

Edited March 24, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[BkkMikey]

Good info! ... She is registered in Udon Thani, though we live in bangkok...anyways i can survive a few days Udon thani..

Will certainly send you the custody form once we have it.

Cheers.

[MikeyIdea]

Legitimizing at amphur must be in Udon (very much doubt that it will work considering the age of the child), legitimization via court can be done where you reside, Bangkok (well 99% sure anyway)

Good Luck

Edited March 25, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[Mario2008]

just to clarify, currently you have legitimized the child only under Dutch law. So in the Netherlands you will have joined parental rights, but not anywhere else. The child will also inherit in the Netherlands under Dutch law.

Right now you need to legitimize the child under Thai law, in the meantime you can have you wife draw up a will and name you as the guardian in case anything happens to her before you have legitimized the child.

[BkkMikey]

Better late then never...

Just started the process of shared custody through a Bangkok lawyer. Below is a short summary the process;

"To obtain a jointly custody over your daugther, it takes 3-4 months from the filing date which we submit the petition with the court. It takes two hearings before the Court and one meeting with the Child Protection Center. From our understanding, we noted that your wife has given the consent for your request regarding the child custody"

Wife should be replaced by gf and yes she agrees to the shared legal custody.

The costs with this particular law firm are THB 38,000.00 including all court fees.

For anyone interested i will post updates once they are available.

Cheers, Michiel

[Mario2008]

I don't know about the price, but the time frame is right and it shouldn't be much of a problem getting the custody.